I’ve seen it so much on here. Every other car seems to have its issues but doesn’t get anywhere near as piled on.
Not trying to defend them, just genuinely want to know.
Oh, and please don’t use the “mAdE iN cHiNa” argument
Why The HAVAL Hate?
L63pinecone on 30/10/2021 - 18:33
Comments
The Thai built ones we get here are designed in Japan, built to Japanese standards. Haval etc built down to a price.
But they haven’t proven that yet. They are still suffering the reputation of the first wave of terrible Chinese vehicles to enter Aus. The original Great Wall, Cheney etc were not well made.
Few of the people I know don't want to consider because of ethical reasons - as the Chinese automotive industry doesn't give a FCUK about IP as they constantly copying exact replicas of cars. It takes years of research, time effort, and money, and people their jobs One may think they are manufacturers but it mainly impacts its people and their lively hood. Stealing someone's Idea and IP is a serious issue.
But China also has some of the strictest standards for vehicle manufacturing.
They probably have the strictest standards for everything like food too, but the problem is enforcing it and corruption.
They have a long way to go to deviate from their reputation of being dodgy, counterfeit, cutting corners, looking good on appearance but a turd inside.
Given that you're dropping a lot of money on a new vehicle and every time you step into one, you're kinda handing your life away to the car, you'd want to trust it.
@Ughhh: In Oz we have AS, which is usually borrowed, or at least respecting, things like DIN, or standards written by the International Standards Organisation. Germany has the TÜV, and globally, some national regulatory bodies are more rigourous and thorough than others.
Then there are quality assurance bodies in each country, that help everyone comply with the standards. What standards are used depends on the manufacturer, but in the end its compliance in each market that mandates that each car be built to those standards.
But the thing about manufacturing is that every component needs to be made to a standard, and enforcement of that in some jurisdictions, esp. with third party suppliers, can be a bit hit and miss. So if the manufacturer lacks the internal rigour to do it well, unexpected results will occur. And when the regulatory mechanisms the country enforces are behind the times, poorly or ineptly enforced, or corrupt, the outcomes will vary greatly.
Established manufacturers do a lot of supplier compliance, component testing, and so on to ensure quality is maintained. You only have to look at how auto components are made in different places to see the differences that result: Rubber bushes and joints that fail in months, not years; plastics, metals and assemblies not built to withstand vibration, tension or expansion/contraction, chemical attack; and so on.
At the end of the day, you can go it alone and build the best quality product without even reading a single standard, but you have to be better than everyone else at it, and you'll spend a lot more overdoing things that others have figured out how to do well years ago. The modern way is to read the standards, enforce them yourself well enough, and get things cheaply and simply, only spending more where you really need/want to.
But to be nationally competitive, having all your industry doing the right thing, so there are less opportunities for unacceptable compromise in every factory, doing every different thing, is vital. Countries all vary at this, and it feeds into the quality of the work each of its industries earn their reputations on. It is not something you can simply generalise about by saying this country 'this', and this country 'that'.
Except for the asbestos
So I'm guessing surface rust must be a standard feature then
All cars are built down to a price. Many manufacturers have moved from welding to glue.
Many manufacturers around the world have moved to adhesive assemblies for unibodies- because it works well.
But, asides from that, yes, the cars are built to a budget.
There was the same hesitation with Kia and Hyundai. Both very solid brands to buy into now. If the Chinese manufacturers stick around, offer decent products and warranties, honour these and offer spares I'd like to think it will go the same way- they'll just be a normal, reasonable budget car
I'm certainly not willing to be an early adopter for Chinese cars- not that they make much I'm interested in currently anyway.
Which brand is not built to a price? All major brands are built to a price.
Yes, but Chinese cars are built to LOWEST PRICE.
alot of stuff made in Thailand is fake, even the ladies ain't ladies
Is be surprised if anyone went to the effort to make a fake Toyota to be sold as a Toyota. Of course they make very similar models, but they are sold under a cheap brand.
Then you clearly have no idea about cars.
Actually…
Your comment shows your bias.
But that’s ok. You don’t need to look at facts this is the internet.Yes this is the internet, where people claim Chinese car manufactures have the "strictest standards", without also specifying that those standards are low.
I am a mechanic and I agree Thailand made cars care crappier than Japanese made counterparts. Japanese companies use Thailand to cut costs. I rather keep my older made in Japan cars than buy a new one made in Thailand.
Totally agree, I don't like cars being built by shemales.
idk but the jolion looks DOPE, at least superficially
Bought a Jolion Lux, it's not perfect, but it's pretty good.
Biggest complaint is there's a slight lag in the turbo kicking in from a stop start.
Drive's exceptionally well otherwise.
every small turbo engine does this
china cant reinvent physics
every small turbo engine does this
I wouldn't recommend it for a street car, but rally and F1 cars avoid this :)
I drive the latest H6 AWD, coming from VW (bought new) and BMWs (e46/e30s, old shitbox).
It's a good car with mostly upmarket feel. Sure, minor niggles a few.
In terms of software its somewhere between beta 3 to release candidate.
Mechanical reliability wise, Haval is the Toyota alternative in Chinese market. Take it what way you like
Overall I'd rate it well above Kia and Hyundai, slight subpar to VW and Mazda mainly in the software calibration section.
e30s, old shitbox
😂
Because this is a Toyota forum, soon to be Tesla.
Always been a Tesla forum. Tesla drivers would like everyone driving Toyota to keep themselves exclusive. It is the internet, the pinnacle of trolling.
Ironically Teslas are made in China too
Ironically made in China body work is way better than US.
The irony doesn't go down too well with the Tesla crowd.
@netjock: Over on the Tesla Model 3 Owners forum on Whirlpool, owners of the MIC Model 3 are glowing in their praise of the improved build quality relative to the Fremont cars.
I'm one of them, Tesla's situation situation is similar to Apple making their iPhones in China. I still wouldn't buy a Haval though just because my MIC Tesla is good.
@Dogsrule: Irony that when you say something controversial about Tesla, the Tesla owners crawl out of the woodwork.
There is a Chinese saying that one kind of rice feeds a thousand kinds of people. I can bet there is 1:1 ratio to those on Whirlpool forums saying how good MIC M3s that say how good it isn't compared to one built in a true democracy. Look at the British car industry, even crap quality seems to have been able to survive on loyalty for a few decades.
I read a story about how billionaires are busy getting off the planet (Musk and Bezos) while trying to sell you more stuff that is screwing up the planet. Musk also objects to a wealth tax in the USA. I mean seriously with $300bn plus he needs some more to do what? Solve world hunger? Apparently 3% of that wealth would do. Most of the Teslas are charging on dirty coal because Elon can't fix his cousin's flop of a solar company.
@netjock: I really can’t make comment on the proportion of Tesla owners that like Chinese made Tesla’s but also object to the Chinese system of governance, and frankly, its outside the scope of this discussion.
Back to the topic, buying a Chinese made car from a Chinese brand comes down to this - significantly lower quality car, significantly lower price.
A completely different proposition to a Western brand that makes its product in China (aka Apple & iPhones). MIC Tesla’s are pretty good quality and cheaper to make, so you get to drive a really interesting car that represents the future of motoring at an affordable price, vs a very cheap but inferior quality ICE that harkens from the past.
@Dogsrule: Id correct it to par quality, lower price.
Take assembly as an example. The Haval has no visible soldering joints, the paint quality is between VW and BMW (closer to VW), interior is VW grade. Its no luxury car, though it feels semi luxury in every way.
@YRT: I have a somewhat broader view of quality that encompasses extreme longevity/durability and low rate of component failure. I drive over 40,000kms a year and have put many hundreds of thousands of kms on various Toyota's with nothing but basic scheduled servicing comprised of fluid and filter changes.
When gumtree is full of Havals, GWM's & MG's with 5-800,000kms on the odo, I'll consider their quality to be on par:
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-cars-vans-utes/carmake-toyota/c…
Not all! Fremont might had some panel issues. There is a secret assembly plant in the Netherlands. Exclusive clients in EU rebel countries like Norway and Switzerland got most their Model S and X directly from Fremont.Rest of EU had them finalised in NL. Once Berlin comes online the whold game is going to change. None of the model Y's coming out of there will ever see a dealers lot. Musk has just promised all the unsold model 3's to Hertz. He knows what will sell!
I was hugely more impressed by the Shanghai made Model 3 than the US one. Fit and finish is noticeably better.
I used to be a falcon man and would shit on toyota drivers. Bought a brand new Toyota about 6 years back… its so easy to drive and just painless. Put fuel and service and runs like new.
But i guess I don’t care about cars much anymore, nor looks. Just want something comfortable and reliable.
Mind you, still love a good falcon. They have character. What i drive now is bland.
Yep, Toyota have it down. They've sold a fair few cars…
If you wanted something interesting the manufacturer isn't the problem, it's that you bought a rav 4/corolla/camry/aurion/whatever. They're not meant to be exciting cars. If you want a falcon replacement there's things like the chaser, mark X, mark ii, IS300, IS350 etc.
If you want an actual fun car there's the older 4A corollas, celica, mr2, supra, etc.
idk i'm ready to get one (waiting for my wallet to say go)
youtube vids and comments are overwhelmingly positive
Posted by unbiased persons? Or people (influencers) paid (in $ or other benefits) to increase the brand profile.
nah i was there for the comments, and was surprised
Most people are happy with them and sales confirm it
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/australia-becomes-top-…
@Mistredo: The people that buy them probably have a cheap and cheerful expectation and are not disappointed. The people that expect more probably don’t buy them.
Eg if I watch a marvel movie I expect explosions, action and a standard story line so I’m not disappointed when there is little character depth and the plot is predictable. Don’t expect Oscar winning performances.
I wonder if they do shout outs to dogs on insta?
Resale value, or lack thereof.
Also I assume they get the same brush as LDV who recently failed the quality test: https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/caselaw/qcat/2021/316…
It is not the worst https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/which-cars-depreciate…
Why do you compare LDV and Haval? It is like comparing Toyota with Mitsubishi just because they are from the same country.
SAIC and Great Wall are cheapo car makers with Zombie brands in Australia, I consider them interchangeable.
Zombie brands? Both MG and Haval had their best year in Australia, and scored very well in reviews and customers satisfaction.
Talking about problems with cars. You should check how other car manufactures behave https://www.accc.gov.au/taxonomy/term/148
For example, check problems with Mazda cars https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/mazda-in-court-for-all…
This is a bit shocking.
The vehicles were taken to Mazda dealers for repeated repairs, including multiple engine replacements. One vehicle was off the road for four months within a six month period.
@Mistredo: Zombie Brands are Brands that have died and another company has come along and resurrected them to cash in on the name value.
MG has got to be the most famous example recently of this.
@Nalar: I see, thanks for educating me. Well, in that case only MG and LDV are zombie brands. GWM and Haval are new brands.
@Mistredo: I put both companies in the same basket for the similar way they entered and operate in the Aussie market. LDV and Haval are just rebrands for Great Wall and SAIC Motors. Even the naming models are designed to confuse consumers and take the stink off their earlier efforts.
Speaking of Zombies, this deal is perfect example: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/660210
@Mistredo: I am on my second MG. No complaints. I get asked a lot whether i like my car. And I do like it.
Give them 10 years. They are where the the Koreans were at 10 years ago.
Their EV technology is making leaps and bounds. They have whole cities dedicated to R&D.
I’d say give them 5years. They are catching up a lot quicker.
I disagree, a 2011 Hyundai i30 was a high quality car, even back then. I reckon Chinese ICE vehicles are about where the Koreans were 20 years ago vis a vis Hyundai Getz/Kia Rio.
I agree with your point about their EV's though, I think they will be huge. Skip their crappy ICE's and wait for the Chinese EV revolution.
I'm talking about the perception the public had towards Kia's and Hyundais last decade. In this forum alone, you'd have heaps of down votes for suggesting a Korean car just a few years ago.
Fair enough, I thought you were talking about the actual quality, not perceived quality.
It’s a way to toughen up the brand, imagine the brand acted like a snowflake…
oh wait the country of origin doesn’t take kindly to critique…
- ANCAP Safety Ratings: Non-existent.
- Resale Value: Non-existent.
- Brand Recognition: Non-existent.
- Engines: At a minimum 20 year old Japanese-licensed motors.
- Build Quality: Somewhere between British Leyland and pre-1990s Alfa Romeo.
- Marketing: Hilarious Chinglish, no awareness of Western consumer tastes/preferences and retarded model names that either sound like photocopiers or Klingon words.
- Legacy/Association: the CCP, Communism, sweatshop slave labour, toxic materials, death traps, woeful health & safety regulations, etc.
Sounds perfect for Ozbargain then.
Yeah if you have no dignity and nothing to live for, they're the perfect car for you.
Build Quality: Somewhere between British Leyland and pre-1990s Alfa Romeo
My god….
Nothing further from truth, lol
Most of your points doesn't matter when price is like 1/3 of the comparable car.
There aren't much info available on build quality, unless Chinese government sensor them. LolBut when buyers look at alternatives at that price point, it is still safer than a 5 year old used car selling for the same price
Based on 2017 test. No recent testing…
Don’t let facts get in the way of a good comment
And that’s just the tip of the ice burg.
Imagine dealing with Chinese for a warranty claim. Lmao
What a massive heap of bullcrap. It's one thing to be biased and have an opinion, another altogether to be racist and just blatantly lie to try to make a BS point which is what you clearly are doing.
https://www.ancap.com.au/safety-ratings/ldv/t60/d8ae5d
LDV T60
ANCAP rating: 5 stars 2017
Not sure whats sader, your comment which has poorly researched BS or people that modded it up. FYI a 5 second search on ANCAP would tell you Haval actually have pretty damn good safety ratings. I still wouldn't buy one, but they are better than a lot of other brands in the market, e.g. Jeep or Mustang. Resale value is low, but then you pay bugger all for them to begin with.
Not sure whats sader, your comment which has poorly researched BS or people that modded it up.
No what's sadder is you getting so salty and bent out of shape over Internet upvotes because someone has a different opinion from you.
FYI a 5 second search on ANCAP would tell you Haval actually have pretty damn good safety ratings.
You mean the two cars they make that actually scored more than 2/3 stars in their ANCAP ratings?
well so far all of their cars have scored 4 star or above, they haven't exactly had a lot here. The other 2 current models are still awaiting test results.
Build Quality: Somewhere between British Leyland and pre-1990s Alfa Romeo.
Ouch, surely not that bad…
Spot on.
Not changing my view until a 10% off coupon comes along.Spot on. Shame we can't up vote for each point. As far as their choice of brnad/model names, they are shiiiiit. Actually, that might be better.
Here's my take on it
- Resale Value
- Serviceable Location
- Some of the Model look like knockoffs of other vehicles like MG using Volvo XC40 Exterior and Mercedes GLB Interior
- Lack of a well-documented and easy to understand workshop manual
- AUS and China relationship could make it harder to get parts in the future
- Data Privacy
- Quality: From personal experience I've had to re secure the nut securing the front passenger door on an LDV 9-seater as well as re tighten the seatbelt mount located on the pillar. My sister's friend also owns a Haval Truck and had the Sun Roof crack randomly. I'd assume from stress on the body.
- Less users on the road, so safety defects may be not be recorded and may be undocumented.
What I don't understand are the Made in China comments.
There are good quality products from China and bad. It all comes down to quality control. A company like Apple will have stricter QC whereas a company such as LDV won't care as much as their brand isn't as strong and there isn't much of a reputation to protect.Most products are going to be offshored to China anyways as paying someone in China $1.50/hr is much better than paying $20.33/hr here in AUS.
Resale Value
How you comparing this ?
If you check this article you will see it is not that bad https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/which-cars-depreciate…
Honestly, all ICE cars will have terrible resale value in 5 years.
That's not bad actually, BTW
Find me a 4yo BMW 520i for $40k, lol
Reckon EV, hybrid cars have better resale value with SA's new EV road tax?
- Availability of parts
- People not wanting to drive something that looks like a knock off
- Long waits on Insurance claims
- Brand Reputation
- Serviceability
Availability of parts & Serviceability
They have 85 places in Australia with more coming soon https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/australia-becomes-top-… with so many sales the parts will not be a problem anymore
The made in China part is fine. The issue is designed in China.
AUS and China relationship could make it harder to get parts in the future
China will sell you whatever you want. It is trying to sell things to China that is the problem. Australia is trying to sell everything we can to China but the Chinese isn't taking it.
It is back to the opium wars again. At the time the West wanted tea and porcelain but the Chinese wouldn't take anything other than gold and silver. Given gold and silver is rare and if it is a one way trade the west will run out they started getting Chinese hooked on opium. Then the rest is history.
Same story. China trying to rebalance the economy to consumption based economy but unfortunately Chinese are still big savers and keep want to accumulate assets.
Haval or Mahindra? Lol
Haval is great wall, great wall is cheap and nasty.
Why The HALVA Hate?
Possibly allergies to sesame ?
Haval cars and a lot of the cheap Chinese car brands still very much look like a bunch of counterfeit cars to me.
It feels like they just stole a bunch of designs from other car brands and then built it as cheaply as possible.The big ugly words H A V A L on the back is not helping either. And any potential CCP history/association.
Cheap alternatives are good and all. However you are almost always better off waiting a bit longer and buying the equivalent Japanese/Korean product with better residuals/dealer or parts network, mechanics etc.
I am sure in a few years when they develop more original ideas and designs. And if the CCP improves their relations with Australia. They will easily be on par with the other Asian brands. Hard to fix the CCP part though, a lot of western countries see the CCP as bullies with the a lack of transparency. That's a hard pill to swallow for some, since a car is often the second biggest financial commitment in peoples lives.
Well said. You are absolutely right about "the big ugly words H A V A L on the back".
When I expressed interest in buying their larger SUV, the first thing my wife said was that the dealer would have to remove that signage and make the surface perfect before we would accept delivery.
It is traditional that pick-up trucks and the like will have manufacturers' names plastered on the rear tail-gates. Ugly, but traditional. BUT you can't do that with $35,000 passenger cars! That is just so ugly and inappropriate.
I don't know. I think they struck gold with their budget SUVs. They look decent and the SUV styling is super popular now. I see a fair few nowadays and they're honestly quite well represented in new SUVs you see on the road. For the average consumer, long warranty, modern styling, 5 star ancap on their new ones, cheap, and most importantly something new and shiny is good enough if you're not thinking about potential long term reliability, resale, etc.
Cheese grade?
You can't get parts - if you have a stack, you are told panels/parts are unavailable for the foreseeable future…..
jimbobaus on 30/10/2021 - 19:12 Comment score below threshold.