So, I have been really bored lately - my boss also told me I need to take annual leave since I havent been taking a single day off since mid 2019 (not that we can go anywhere).
So, my question is when do you guys think we can travel overseas again (im thinking of japan).
** July 2021 **
** Dec 2021 **
** Dec 2022 **
Maybe, no, yes, depends on your workplace “policies”.
AHA. thats the thing. this one is not written in my work contract. so technically…..
If I was your boss I would be doing everything I legally can for you to take it. Annual leave is a liability as are employees who never take a break from work.
Also, luckily there is a pretty interesting country worth travelling called Australia.
Doesn’t matter if it’s not written down
If it ever went to a legal challenge, stuff like this comes into play
https://www.fwc.gov.au/awards-agreements/awards/modern-award…
Be sensible, don’t start causing trouble for the rest of us
depends on your workplace “policies”.
Corrected : depends on your workplace “policies” & "politics"
employers forcing annual leave reduction is already quite common, standard behaviour to reduce their ongoing liabilities.
I have never understood this. How is bringing a liability forward better than postponing it? I guess there is a possibility of getting a pay rise before taking the leave. Other than that it is like an interest free loan. My employer just sets aside the money to cover the liability. Doesn't seem tremendously worse than paying it out now.
From a high level, there isn't much difference between unpaid invoices, and annual leave owed to employees on a balance sheet
Say you have 10 hours annual leave and your hourly rate is $25, the base liability booked is $250.
Go forward a year and your hourly rate is raised to $50, if you had the same 10 hours the base liability is now $500.
Because if you dont take leave, the employer will have to pay you for the work time PLUS pay out the leave when you depart.
So instead of 48w work + 4 weeks leave per 12 months, they are actually paying 52w work + 4 weeks leave. If people bank multiple years of leave, it can add up to a lot of extra salary they need to fund.
Now you might argue that they also get 4 extra weeks of work, but the problem is they haven't budgeted for 56w salary per 12 months of work.
@lunchbox99: I should say, the above is an illustrative approximation because you will also accrue leave on the extra 4 weeks of work, so that will have to fund 52w salary + 21.5 days of leave.
@lunchbox99: That’s nonsense. You don’t cost more by banking leave. When you count it as 52wk worked you’re neglecting that in the next year it may end up being 44wk worked. It’s mostly a zero-sum game.
Also, leave expenditure isn’t an “unexpected” add-on that rears it’s ugly head only when people take it or quit. It’s earned gradually and payroll sheets have the hours documented pretty clearly. Every workplace is able to accurately budget for leave; be it taken or accumulated.
Untaken leave might become a source of revenue a business relies on, but that’s an accounting issue, not a staff issue.
The real problem is staff burnout and litigation, and worse, backfilling positions when giant blocks of leave are taken.
@haemolysis: It's not nonsense. This is exactly how it works.
Not sure how many businesses you have run but paying out untaken leave is a normal common occurrence, not the exception, so any leave not taken within each 12 month period is a potential ADDITIONAL expense. This is why most workplaces cap the maximum amount of leave you are allowed to accrue.
But hey don't let ignorance get in your way.
@lunchbox99: There is no such additional expense.
It’s an expense brought forward, or pushed back. But there is no such “additional.”
If you haven’t budgeted for leave balances, you need a better accountant on your team.
(I will grant you one exception: balances brought forward may be paid at a higher rate if the employee goes up a pay grade.)
@haemolysis: Sigh. It's not the leave balance that is extra… it's the additional 4 working weeks.
Take an example of someone working 5 years without leave (which was the original question here - "why do employers force you to take leave").
Let's look at the total cost on 31 Dec year 5:
over the 5 years instead of paying 5 years total salary (4 years and 7 months work + 5 months leave), you actually need to find 5.5years salary (5 years work + almost 6 months of accrued leave). This is not an insignificant additional expense for many businesses and if people are not directed to take leave, some will happily accrue YEARS worth of leave.
@lunchbox99: Spot on, also where an employee's wages rise, the leave is potentially being paid out at a higher rate than it was accrued at.
@lunchbox99: But, i assume the business will have to hire another person while this person is on AL. So, its not exactly additional 4 working weeks to the business given if another person needed to cover the shift anyway?
Also, when you are taking AL, there's a loading on top of the normal salary while if someone left the company and the company pay out his/her wages without loading? That's what happened to me, when i left i have lots of AL and the company just pay out my leave base on my basic wages without adding any loading on top. In this case, the company actually pay less?
not trying to argue, just trying to understand as its a very interesting discussion
There is also a risk of you quitting with a huge amount of annual leave. It could make a big impact on the cashflow.
It is considered a liability for them. And as I understand it most workplaces can demand you take AL if you have too much. There may also be leave loading
Annual leave is factored into your salary so that if you don't take AL, you have still been paid your years wage + you have the leave banked. If you end up banking a lot and use it when you want, it could be that you take 3 months AL in a row. Not too many workplaces would be happy to do that without prior knowledge and planning.
Yes this is exactly the issue. It's not that the business "can't afford it". It's more that this imposes an additional expense that needs to be agreed.
Yes, probably (depending on your agreement) since you’re likely to have more than 8 weeks accrued by 2022 https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-g…
Travelling overseas isn’t the only way to use your annual leave and you’ll likely have enough leave still left when you are able to travel to Japan again.
yes they can force you. I would be planning an aussie holiday just in case. I think it highly likely restrictions will be in place well past July, It will take longer than that to effectively have implemented vaccines around the world. Even the US won't be close to having the vaccine fully rolled out by then. I think at best we will see small travel bubbles to countries that are completely infested by the end of the year.
"…to countries that are completely infested…"?
yeah finger fubar, "countries that are NOT completely infested"
Try doing few mini holidays few days here and there my boss told us all we need used our leave as second oversea open back up office cannot be empty 2022 plus is my bet. boss is from eup so he find it hard not been able to see family nice if state gov can work together.
Sorry but What are you saying?
OP is in the same boat as everyone else in THE WORLD!!!!
Note that your employer is not responsible for COVID19 restrictions, especially for overseas travel.
Furthermore. employers dont like having annual leave accumulating as its an increasing liability on the books, especially if one also gets a pay rise.
Sometimes you are given no choice.
Take school teachers for example. Imagine if OP was a school teacher.
Everyone here would be giving OP such a huge serve.
So OP I suggest you stop being so self-centred and do like everyone else.
Take annual leave and take a break!
What you do with that time is up to you.
There are plenty of choices even though overseas is not an option.
We are lucky to live in such a vast and beautiful country that offers such wonderful holiday options.
Its no wonder so many tourists want to come to Australia!
"'will be able to force me to take annual leave""
Your union will be able to advise you on this "force"' matter
Ask your union.
Most unions arent worth a teaspoon of piss.
Maybe he's in a union that is worth a teaspoon of piss?
anyone know if the SDA is even a good union?
@HeyHeyHeyIsItADeal: The shoppies union is the worst you can get. Only interested in politcal sway rather than workers rights.
I've been in multiple unions who have fought for me when my employers have stuffed me around. Both times my disputes were resolved to my satisfaction.
It also taught me some important lessons now that I'm a hiring manager. I have no problem with my sectors union.
I think it will be 2023 before we really see overseas travel open back up.
Check your employment contract. In my contract I can be forced to take annual leave if i accrue too much without taking it. If that is the case, enjoy a holiday in your own state perhaps.
agree … i wouldn't be booking anything this year.
Very common
Could always just cash out your leave if you have not much to do..
I think all our a/l balances are through the roof atm.
Will get taxed tho… unless need the money.
Yeh sucks, could put in your super, not much gratification for now tho
Other option could be doing 5 x 4 day weeks of taking a week off at once with no travel seems a waste
yep… i havent had olidays in years… work smashing me to cash in my AL… but one day I'll take it :D
You’re assuming OP is actually permitted to cash out leave.
I used to work for a company that didn’t permit its employees to cash out any of their leave unless they were leaving the company. Their reasoning was that they wanted employees to actually take a break from work for time to time.
It’s law if you have over 4 weeks, you can cash out anything over this, not sure state governed or federal.
Found this
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/annual-leave/cashing-out-a…
Annual leave can only be cashed out when an award allows it.
Annual leave can only be cashed out when a registered agreement allows it.
Where I worked in Vic, you could only cash out if you'd taken 4 weeks in the last 12 months and your balance was still greater than 4 weeks.
It isn't law, it is where agreements are in place to allow it which your link clearly states.
Since you're in Perth you can't even risk having a holiday in the eastern states in case you can't get back home.
so………. true - and sad.
Yet with a large and scenic backyard to holiday around
An expensive and unfriendly environment to be stuck in
/s
So much to see and do and so much remote stuff without anyone for hours… sounds perfect to me.
Yes, it is a long way back..
Lucky there is an absolute tonne to see in WA. Go see the kimberly before some idiot destroys it for some gas and rocks.
This. I wish I was stuck in Wait Awhile. Glorious part of the world and a massiveeeeeeee state to explore!
not really, its all booked up and overpriced and nothing is open half the time
It's overpriced and booked out to walk into a national park?
I'm in Perth and booked a holiday for Tasmania next month. No issue with flying between those two states…. For now
Until 1 case emerges in Tassie then WA will close up shop again..🤣
Fingers crossed. Real tight
LOL
I've been taking a few days off for an extended weekend down shack. It's been worth it. There's plenty to explore in your state I'm sure.
You can travel after 1 July 2020 i hope .. since Qantas starts selling ticket for 1/7.
But the chance of getting stuck somewhere real high, travel insurance wont cover you anything relating to covid.
If you must ..
But i wouldnt. I cant travel when i know i cant really relax and enjoy it
Besides, taking your AL helps your company’s finance. And take AL = get yourself sometime to be away from work = does not necessarily mean you must travel. Border closure is not a valid excuse not take AL. Later on when you claim stress leave, they will not accept it ;-))
Qantas selling tickets for 1/7 is simply to raise revenue.
You'll likely end up with a credit for some future travel.
I wouldn't buy a ticket for a flight that doesn't exist.
Travelling back in time would be a cool way to spend your leave but I would pick a better year myself.
hang on a sec…..what is stress leave?
Sick leave
You mean after 01 July 2021 ?
Qantas are now saying 2022
Maybe you can direct some anger towards international destinations, like Japan. They're not allowing any foreigners in until late February.
I went to the gym today, also did some shopping, and went to the beach. No restrictions. We have it pretty damn good in this country. If only more people would appreciate it.
Yeah today… savour the moments
Maybe you can direct some anger towards international destinations, like Japan. They're not allowing any foreigners in until late February.
Did you read what I said? You can't leave Australia without a stamp of approval from the Department of Home Affairs. About 1 in 5 applications have been approved since that restriction came into effect.
It matters little what border controls foreign countries have in place when our own Federal government sees fit to stop anyone leaving Australia freely.
Why would I be mad at Japan? They're not demanding every Australian send Emperor Naruhito a letter with their request to travel overseas so they can determine if they have a valid reason or not.
You start with your own backyard before setting about to fix the world.
No restrictions. We have it pretty damn good in this country. If only more people would appreciate it.
Yeah, I'm in WA. We've certainly had it good.
VIC, NSW and QLD; not so much.
You can appreciate it all you like but the ever-present dark cloud of a potential lock-down hangs over all of our heads until people realise this has the square root of jack sh*t to do with a virus. The CEO of Moderna remarked just a few days ago that COVID will be with us forever, in much the same way Dick Cheney of the Bush administration announced at the beginning of the War on Terror that it would be the "long war" that would last for the rest of our lifetimes.
A Pandora's Box has been opened here and there is no putting the "new normal" back in the bottle; the unprecedented gains to politicians, big business, big tech, governments and other special interest groups around the world are simply far too valuable in their eyes to ever relinquish this permanent state of crisis.
The Federal government can exert massive pressure on states to do whatever they want, at any time, and given the wildly unpredictable nature of this pandemic, your state can go from relatively free to being subject to some of the harshest restrictions in the world, overnight, as Victoria did.
Regardless of the circumstances individual states are in, we are all being collectively worsened economically, socially, psychologically and politically by the impact of all of the COVID-related restrictions.
I'm all for looking on the positive side, but alas, you first must have an objectively clear view of reality.
There's little point rejoicing because WA is living it up while a significant chunk of the country lives like the Sword of Damocles dangles over their heads, unsure of what new-fangled mandates their state government will think up tomorrow because a few new positives cases suddenly sprung up somewhere.
If anything, living in a state that hasn't experienced the pandemic at all really brings home how utterly mad and fear-inducing the experiences of the Eastern states have been on their populations and how imperative it is that this madness be brought to a close as soon as possible.
I dont believe WA should be held as a standard for how to deal with the Covid crises given that WA shut its borders to NSW and Victoria as soon as the cases were announced.
I do agree with the fact that at some point we are just taking this to the extreme. I agree that the borders should be closed until a vaccine is rolled out , but then the borders should be opened up after a large scale round of vaccination to every one.
The government has started setting the expectation that even if you have the vaccine , you still wont be allowed to travel . This is complete BS.
The government has … won’t be allowed to travel
There is no evidence that any of the vaccines prevent you from contracting COVID, or spreading it to others. Not yet anyway. The vaccine reduces your body’s response to the virus, thus reducing symptoms and probably (hopefully) preventing health damage and death. So, if you take the vaccine, then travel off to hotspots, contract the virus, bring it home and spread it around, you risk the lives of everyone who hasn’t taken the vaccine. These are not just anti-vaxers, but people with health issues that have been advised not to take the vaccine.
@BigBirdy: Thats just really frustrating. So in that case for the people with health issues that have been advised not to take the vaccine , what would be the point where we would say people can enter and leave the country with no controls ? 5 years , 10 years ?
@isthatallyougot: Don't forget the mutations. I'm sure a new variant will eventually emerge which is immune to the vaccine and we will end up back at square one.
@isthatallyougot: realistically you are probably looking at 2023 for some normalcy, 2022 will bring some limited travel to regions that have it under control. even in 2023 I would expect some countries will probably be off-limits without invoking some sort of quarantining, Travel is unlikely to ever be the same again unless they can develop instant tests that can reliably detect the virus in the initial days of contracting it (none currently can do that)
@gromit: I agree with your timeline, but add that Covid will slowly die out, just as previous pandemics did. Maybe because of herd immunity, or just better management, and the speed of it’s death will vary by country. Eventually it’ll all be over … until the next pandemic
@BigBirdy: maybe. depends on mutations, how long immunity lasts, how many idiot anti vaxxers in a given community etc. The spanish flu is still around today over 100 years after the initial pandemic. Covid will be with us for the forseeable future, I would think at least the next decade or so.
I dont believe WA should be held as a standard for how to deal with the Covid crises given that WA shut its borders to NSW and Victoria as soon as the cases were announced.
That's literally the only possible course of action that has been proven to contain COVID in multiple regions around the world.
Everything else is a security theatre farce, as we've seen from Melbourne's experience in 2020; the moment their hotel quarantine system failed, one of the most stringent lock downs in the world could not contain or slow community transmission for months.
Not point in piling up on WA for doing what the entire country should have done back in February of 2020 if we really wanted to eliminate any trace of COVID on our shores, but ultimately decided against due to political correctness and accusations of racism.
I do agree with the fact that at some point we are just taking this to the extreme.
We crossed that threshold back in June or July of 2020.
What we're doing now is civilisational suicide.
but then the borders should be opened up after a large scale round of vaccination to every one.
Except all of the "experts" and media talking heads are saying that isn't going to happen and that life will still remain at Medical Defcon-1 for the foreseeable future even with mass vaccination.
The government has started setting the expectation that even if you have the vaccine , you still wont be allowed to travel . This is complete BS.
Yes, precisely. Are you getting the picture yet?
None of this has anything to do with a virus anymore.
@Miami Mall Alien: Gnostikos are you upset because you wanted to storm Washington DC Capitol with the other Trump mob?
@[Deactivated]: What a low-effort NPC brainlet post.
Did you just regurgitate a buzzword salad of mainstream media ad hominems from the latest Politico/Vox/Buzzfeed article you clicked on?
Thanks for your valuable contribution, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Yeahp…. incremental steps towards dystopia…
I bet our parents and grandparents also huffed and puffed resentment when new technologies, red tape and paperwork were introduced to all manner of regular every day processes and transactions which we now deem normal.
It's happening… crowd control en masse perfectly timed with a worldwide disaster excuse (not to take away from the magnitude of the disaster). I dread the day where we will all be forced to be tracked digitally and am sadenned that newcomers into this world will know no better or experience the freedoms we all got to experience.
And who would have thought the movies we all watched as kids / not too long ago are all slowly coming true (to a degree).
I’m a sceptic at heart, and make my judgements based on fact, data and not speculation - Usually. But the current state of the world is a real shambles and ripe for the picking. George Orwell would be rolling in his grave- he must’ve been a time traveller.
So much cognitive dissonance hopium being huffed in this thread.
As I said, the sooner you realise there is no light at the end of the tunnel, the sooner you can prepare yourself and take care of the things in your life you have power over now.
@Miami Mall Alien: Everything is a worry. Though COVID is real, and if nothing else it highlights how easy it is to strip away rights.
WTF did I just read?
I demand compensation for time lost
My guess, if NZ counts, probably this year.
If its overseas else where, next year.
When herd of cow immunity occurs!!! AKA 2/3 or 3/4 of OZ has the second jab and you have it on your OZ passport.
I think Japan really really really would want to push for July 2021, because of the Olympics and whatnot.
I highly doubt the world will be ready for an event like that by then, but who knows.
Hoping we have a travel bubble with Japan but X for doubt
I regret not spending Christmas 2019 there. I watched a video on Kyoto and the elderly residents were saying it hasn't been this quiet in 40 years. They were also sad as a lot of businesses had to close due to no tourism.
Also, if the border restriction still havent been lift til 2022, do you guys think my boss will be able to force me to take annual leave?