How would you INVEST 120K in cash with 0 debt?
Would you buy property? Invest in the stock market?
Buy a business/franchise? If so, what business would you get into?
What are the best/smartest investments now?
How would you make your money, work for you?
Would love to hear some genuine feedback on this..
Black or Red
BMW or Mercedes?
BMW.
Timeframe and risk tolerance are the first question that need to resolved.
Until you have solid answers to those questions, the universe of options are all equally viable … cash, fixed interest, property, equity, alternatives, etc. … not to mention the level of gearing you may wish to take on board, the specific investment types within those classes.
I'd invest in a Victorian business.
🤣🤣🤣
(I'm Victorian so it's not racist.)
No you're not racist. You are discriminating against people from a certain place, not race.
I guess that makes you a placist.
It's actually spelt pisces. Those postcode snobs.
Would you buy property? Invest in the stock market?
Property, depends on whether you have some already. $120k will get you a $600k property. Problem you have is no diversification, cash flow negative most likely.
Stock market. Unless you picked March 20 lows don't drop it in at once. I was listening to a podcast. They did an S&P500 model, if you dropped it all at once you made 6%, if you dollar cost average you would have made 8% over 20 years. You also need to make diversification decisions, don't drop $120k on banks.
Assumed zero debt, but if you have property and owner occupier rates are like 2.3% where the index is paying like 3% dividend full franked. You do the math.
Buy a business/franchise? If so, what business would you get into?
It is already bad enough running a business with all the overheads, then you want the overhead of having a master franchise and dictating what you can sell at what price.
What are the best/smartest investments now?
Best for? Smartest for? Some people were pretty smug in Mar 20 when the sharemarket tanked and they had money in the bank.
How would you make your money, work for you?
Watch your cash flow and be fully invested.
Get diversified. COVID19 shows a lot of people have no savings and depend on month to month earnings, not a good idea. Look for low cost good debt. If you have residential mortgage at 2.3% you use that to buy shares and make sure you dividends (net) pays off your loan. You don't get margin calls if share market tanks. Tax deduction and franking credits as a bonus, you've still got a foot in the upside.
Stock market. Unless you picked March 20 lows don't drop it in at once. I was listening to a podcast. They did an S&P500 model, if you dropped it all at once you made 6%, if you dollar cost average you would have made 8% over 20 years. You also need to make diversification decisions, don't drop $120k on banks.
It's actually the opposite. Lump sum investing beats DCA. This is according to research by Vanguard:
https://investor.vanguard.com/investing/online-trading/inves…
https://static.twentyoverten.com/5980d16bbfb1c93238ad9c24/rJ…
Invest with me. I'd prefer lump sum over DCA. Because much happier to charge you % on full amount.
You know what they say about timing the market (you can't). So why would lump sum be better than dollar cost averaging?
Pick your data point. If you lump summed it 31st Dec 2008 or 29th Feb 2020.
Funds management industry publishes stuff that makes them look good or makes them the most money.
You know what they say about timing the market (you can't). So why would lump sum be better than dollar cost averaging?
Because you benefit from more time in the market by buying in a lump sum.
All the analysis in that article is based on rolling ten year periods, the methodology is sound.
@hamole: From your article:
To calculate the average magnitude of LSI
outperformance, we calculated the average ending
values for a 60%/40% portfolio following rolling
10-year investment periods. In the United States,
12-month DCA led to an average ending portfolio
value of $2,395,824, while LSI led to an average
ending value of $2,450,264, or 2.3% more. The
results were similar in the United Kingdom and
Australia: U.K. investors would have ended with
2.2% more and Australian investors with 1.3%
more, on average.
For such a small margin of difference between lump sum and 12 months dollar cost averaging go DCA. Look at the last 12 months. You could have made that difference easily DCA into March 2020.
Out of the 1,021 rolling 12-month investment
periods we analyzed for the U.S. markets, LSI
investors would have seen their portfolios decline
in value during 229 periods (22.4%), while DCA
investors would have seen such declines during
only 180 periods (17.6%). Furthermore, the average
loss during those 229 LSI periods was $84,001,
versus only $56,947 in the 180 DCA periods. The
allocation to cash during the DCA investment period
decreases the risk level of the portfolio, helping to
insulate it from a declining market.
In other words if you invested Feb 2020 lump sum you could easily have lost more than you would gain in 10 years just in the month of March 2020. Vanguard would still thank you for your client fees.
Without knowing exactly OP's situation dropping lump sum if not diversified is just gambling.
@netjock: If you're DCA over say, 3 years, there's going to be minimal difference in the client fees you pay to Vanguard vs lump sum and you have the added cost of having to make the individual trades.
One of your original points was that you can't time the market, for the last 100 years it's been true that more 60% of the time you're better off investing a lump sum. That's hardly gambling.
If you're DCA over say, 3 years
Article you are quoting and arguing over is DCA over 12 months. Stop moving the goal posts to suit your argument.
You might want to read this to get some perspective.
It has taken 2,974 days for the benchmark ASX 200 index to get back to it pre-GFC highs.
Investor celebrations ushering in the new record have been tempered to a degree given Wall Street rebounded in less half the time.
It took the equivalent US index, the S&P 500, just 1,386 days to make it back to its October 2007 peak.
Article you are quoting and arguing over is DCA over 12 months. Stop moving the goal posts to suit your argument.
I was trying to be generous to your point of view, if you're doing it over 12 months then there is even less difference between the client fees compared to lump sum investing.
Looking at total returns, the ASX made it back to a new record in September 2013, just a few months after the S&P 500 recovered to its total return high.
@netjock: If you're investing in index funds you'd have a 5+ year investment timeframe, anyway. Not only that but you should be buying regularly, so you'd have 4 years of further growth.
For such a small margin of difference between lump sum and 12 months dollar cost averaging go DCA. Look at the last 12 months. You could have made that difference easily DCA into March 2020.
You can cherry pick dates to suit any argument. The question is, considering all dates, does LSI beat DCA? The answer (2/3s of the time) is yes.
@Autonomic: The article is DCA over 12 months. We're in a 100 year pandemic and main street is disconnected with Wall St.
It seems like you guys are just doubling down like it is some kind of gambling. Rational person won't go into the casino and put it all on red why would you put it down lump sum.
As above. Share market is at peak. If it drops tomorrow good luck spending 4 years just breaking even. You all talk about 10 years. If the share market tanks and you lose your job either realise the loss to live off the money or try to stay solvent for 4 years while you recover your capital.
People with a gambling mentality. We've had it easy for the last 20 years in Australia, it won't always be the fact. Guess if you can hold onto your property long enough you'll make money too except when this happens
I've said my piece. I know people all brag about making a lot of money going all in. It is (majority of) those who lost a lot that stay silent.
@netjock: Just to make sure we're on the same page - we are talking about DCA vs LSI when we have a lump sum. Ex: You have $100k sitting in your bank account. Statistically speaking, if you invest it straight away instead of over 12 months, you'll have a better return doing it all at once.
We're not talking about the regular persons investing strategy which is to invest money regularly as you get it. LSI doesn't make sense in this case because, well, you don't have a lump sum to invest.
We're not talking about the regular persons investing strategy which is to invest money regularly as you get it. LSI doesn't make sense in this case because, well, you don't have a lump sum to invest
If you have $120k lump sum then you're just an exception because regular rules of the market don't apply.
Given the 2% difference over 10 year per the article you're taking a big down side risk for 2%. Quote from article below. Investor over confidence in their own abilities is exactly the reason why they get into trouble. Good luck with spending 4 years getting your capital back if things go wrong.
To calculate the average magnitude of LSI
outperformance, we calculated the average ending
values for a 60%/40% portfolio following rolling
10-year investment periods. In the United States,
12-month DCA led to an average ending portfolio
value of $2,395,824, while LSI led to an average
ending value of $2,450,264, or 2.3% more. The
results were similar in the United Kingdom and
Australia: U.K. investors would have ended with
2.2% more and Australian investors with 1.3%
more, on average.
@netjock: If your investment horizon is > 5-7 years (which it should be) then a 4 year recovery is no issue. If you're saying "I want less return for less risk" then sure, but that's beside the point which was that LSI gives better returns than DCA on average.
@Autonomic: Yawn. With enough time everything will heal.
Go and find someone who worked to 2014 before they could retire, or had their retirement plans significantly curtailed as a result of the GFC.
Go to casino put half on red and half on black even if you are a professional gambler. In the long run you'll recover and make money.
You know why employers don't pay your annual salary lump sum up front?
Can't be sure you won't run off
Can't be sure you'll continue to be productive once paid
Can't be sure you'll budget correctly to not run out of money
Could be said the same risks for the share market.
@netjock: @netjock mate just wanted to ask if you are a financial analyst or advisor? I was reading your other comments, quite knowledgeable financially.
@Tomhaigh1: Working in corporate finance right now doing 12 month forecast / operating plans, medium term and long term forecasts.
I manage my own investment company (>$500k), SMSF (>$500k), investment properties across two continents. Target is cash flow neutral investments (what investments pay, pays for the loans P&I). At current rate will retire before 65 (hopefully closer to 55) on $80k a year without draw down on capital.
I have been looking at doing career change later life (say 50s) into financial planning (freedom to work, just do home / workplace visits) but the problem is you got people who come in and destroy the profession one way or another (fraud, getting people into dud investments) then cost of regulation is astronomical.
I've done the day trading thing and the fancy stuff but you will find that most well off types will generally get another professional to manage their money (managed fund or listed investment company but do your research) because you'd rather be enjoying your money than worried about making an extra few grand here and there spending days / weeks timing a trade.
Some good podcasts to listen to:
Sound investing (Paul Merriman)
The Rules of Investing (Livewire Markets)
Bogleheads On Investing Podcast
Animal Spirits Podcast
AJ Bell Money & Markets
Over a very long period with no effort would be VDHG or similar, which already comes well diversified.
If you are are long Asian economies, as you should be, there's VAE.
Short term at least until early 2021 I'm personally a bit cautious.
Tesla Model X and the remainder into Tesla stock. Because every Tesla owner on this forum attests to how the Model X only goes up in price and insist that Tesla stock isnt a "TeCh bUbbLe" stock and that Telsa is too big to fail.
You really don't like Tesla owners eh?
It's really only the ones that that when someone poses a question like; "I have a $15,000 budget for a new SUV vehicle" and all the Cult of Elon members chime in with "MoDeL … iS yOuR bEsT OpTiOn". And when you point out how utterly ridiculous their suggestion is, the next comment is "A MoDeL … WiLL PaY fOr iTsELf iN LeSs ThAn 5 YeArZ!!!"
Then, without asking, they jump on the Ponzi scheme, selling Tesla stock and how they bought in at $1 and it's now worth $1,000,000 and how Tesla is the biggest car maker in the world… Like they are living in a echo chamber for their own confirmation bias. "aLL yOu tEsLa ShOrTeRz ArE JuSt MaKiN' mE RiChErEr!!1!"
I love Tesla cars, they are brilliant and safe and innovative, but it's just a shame the owners, for the most part, are utter, utter bell ends. Usually rich flogs with no concept of reality and a lack of understanding of why not everyone can afford a $100,000+ electric car. But I do live in hope that more electric cars do become affordable and available to the wider population and that when Hyundai/Kia/etc… start selling affordable electric cars that it smokes Tesla sales. But for now, I'm happy that Tesla is showing that electric vehicles can be a viable option…
So, now is the time to buy that Model X and that Tesla stock before other manufacturers start flooding the market with actual affordable electric vehicle and Telsa vehicles prices, along with their stock value, tanks.
All hail Elon. All hail our electric Jesus
Note to mods: Before you penalty box me, this post is not aimed at anyone in particular or any single person and is intended as an overall anecdotal assessment of the Cult of Elon community as a whole and their typical suggestions of how Tesla vehicles and Tesla stock are solid investment options. It is not bullying or trolling and I am not singling any one person or any people out, but referencing the owners as a collective, not any individuals.
I actually have not encountered many EV/Elon cultists.
It is sad that you have to pre-empt disciplinary/penalty from mods for a perfectly acceptable opinion/comment but I feel the same when posting these days.
@[Deactivated]: 1: I could link to plenty, just on this forum alone, but fear that if I link to any one comment made by a Cult of Elon member on this forum, it will be used as penalty box justification, so, I either have to list all ridiculous comments made by Cult of Elon members, or none.
2: It will have been reported already and I await an escort to the penalty box on a “Grade 2 careless high tackle” charge. I don’t think it is fair that I cannot have an opinion on something because someone doesn’t agree and that I am too scared for fear of being sent back to the penalty box. So I am expecting, once again, that even with my disclaimer and the fact it is not aimed at anyone in particular, that these comments will be removed for (bullying/trolling) and being a “Grade 2”, I’ll be in there for 90 days.
I don't see why you should be subject to such imposition.
I don't see why your comments could come under bullying/trolling if you are making an accurate representation of their presented facts/fallacies.
BAHHAHAHAAHHAHAH I like Tesla but wow the fanbois makes me want to buy a S/C V8 and remove the cats
$TSLA has been an insane bitcoin-esq ride. People make shitloads but many more lost even more. Its all about Nikola now
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-14/sec-said-…
I am not sure why you would be put into penalty box for a mock post. Is there any rules against mock post?
Invest in 4AD, the indie record label behind Grimes albums. If there's one business in the world that Elon Musk can guarantee to succeed, that would be it. I'd invest in whatever surgeon gave Elon his super hero surgery too.
100%
VAS, VGS, VDHG are some ETFs you might want to take a look at, it might be best to seek a good financial adviser for that hefty sum of money.
Buy a second hand car that's located in a different state, and without physically inspecting it. Please don't worry about bald tyres because there should be some change left over from $120k
Link to thread please :)
The key is finding the right investments. You can find a positive cash flow property (after depreciation). That would work if you're on 32%+ marginal tax.
In this environment, would be easy to find a 5.5%+ yield dividend stock + a property. Property - would take 'a lot' of looking around.
Just a few points to start with?
Don't bother picking individual stocks or commodities - even professionals fail to beat the index over the long term (SPIVA Scorecard). Just invest in a low cost index fund, buy on a schedule and never sell until you need the money.
That is true - the issue with indexed ETFs is that you're subject to additional fees and lose the ability to stock pick yourself. As someone mentioned above, high risk ~ high return. There are quite a few good ETFs out there with low management fee.
If you just buy shares in ETFs uising CommSec doesn't that remove the problem of management fees? Genuine question, I'm brand new just downloaded CommSec lmao.
@[Deactivated]: This will help answer your question
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/071816/how-are-etf-…
120k towards a 250k house in SA, after negative gearing and tax at the end, still should make atleast 30k after 10 years. Lots of cheaper areas still with 4% growth
Both property and stocks are in a vastly inflated bubble at the moment and the stock market globally seems to be propped up with funny money from the local central banks. I liquidated a lot my holdings recently and am sitting on the sidelines. I 'suspect' things might be quiet at least until the u.s. selection is over and done with and then the games will continue. Also kinda expecting a black swan banking event somewhere in the world next year. Maybe Europe but it will be a house of cards starting where ever it happens. Even too much money kept in the banks may be at risk due the bail-in legislation they rushed through (In Australia) back in 2018 (basically behind closed doors with only 7 senators out of 80 something present. I'm hoping their theft cut-off point is going to be at the 250K government guarantee level but who know what the scum are plotting. Crypto could be worth a small bet but I am planning to get out of all crypto before Dec 21 too as I have a suspicion it will be scuttled by the usual suspects around that time after having a great year in 2021 but will be replaced by official global government controlled crypto and not decentralised crypto. Will know more as it all unfolds. (This is not financial advice DYOR)
So hold cash?
IMO have a few eggs in different baskets, cash, silver/gold (physical), some crypto BTC etc. Just not sure that anything is a safe bet ATM. Even had a mates dad lose all of his money back in the 80's when the building society he had it in went under. And things are much shakier all round now than they were back then. Again DYOR, this is just my opinion based on what I see going on around the world right now.
Thanks for sharing. Nearly 40 years after the friends dad lost everything, did they rebuild or do you think there lives were changed forever with everything lost?
@Heaps for Cheaps: Can't say, we moved to QLD back in the 90's and have lost contact. Though people who have earned big money tend to know how to get it back again so hopefully they ended up OK in the long run. :)
asx:pl8
It sounds like a lot, but unfortunately 120 isn't really going to change anything. Split it into some international and aussie ETFS and let time and compounding do its thing. Rental returns on property + maintenance eat into any returns.
If you're young, you could get an education. 120k could let you try and be anything you want.
Only Fans
How Would You Invest 120k?
Put it all on Black!
No wait, Red!!
"And the winning number is…. Zero" *rakes layout clean and stuffs all JimmyF's chips into the chipping machine…*
"Place your bets…"
hahaha Oh well, better off without it anyhow!
Get financial advice. Otherwise some sort of balanced fund, much like your superannuation is possibly doing already. Don't expect much return for next 30 years, tailwind of falling interest rates of last 30 years may be over. Which makes one wonder if it is better to spend money on consumables in the present.
That sounds like a very boring way to invest 120k. What if OP dies in 28 years, he'd have spent all that time earning that 120k for nothing.
If OP is relatively young (i.e. <40 or even <50) I'd be going for an aggressive option. You can afford the risk if you're younger, for sure.
22.5% IWLD
22.5% IHWL
55% A200
I know where I’d park it.
We don't know where you'd park it.
A new BMW
I am looking at mortgage trusts like Balmain Private, La Trobe etc, they hold mortgages of borrowers as security and you can invest in a general fund, paying quite good interest
OP, the answer to your question will depend on your circumstances e.g. what is your age, how long you do not need this money, what are your short, medium and long term goals. You need to meet a professional for the advice.
For educating yourself, see this: https://www.reddit.com/r/AusFinance/wiki/windfall
VAS
F100
NDQ
40k in each
Set dividends to reinvest
DISCLAIMER DO YOU OWN RESEARCH
Otherwise Hookers and Blow
Buy the book from this guy and educate yourself a bit first.
https://www.barefootinvestor.com/
$19 at Big W - https://www.bigw.com.au/product/the-barefoot-investor/p/5294…
Op, how much can you afford to lose to make gains?
There are some destressed but quality business's looking for cashed up partners to get them over the next 6 months.
Maybe a silent 20% share in a pub in Melbourne, you will need to quality check most days :)
Is there a way to get in touch with a business like such?
Use it as a deposit for a small residenial unit/townhouse in a regional area.
This segment of the property market is not likely to move significantly up or down. You'll receive a modest return and is not not likely to crash.
Buy capital notes in in one or two of the big four banks. Return is reasonable and is didvidends are usually franked
Covid has changed our world, and some of those changes will be permanent. This is where there are investment opportunities. For example … Working from home is the new norm because of the huge office space savings for business. How will this affect the property market? Lots of downward pressure on commercial (office) property, but probably also on city residential as workers look to live in lifestyle locations (tree-change and sea-change). No longer do you need to live near an office you rarely visit.
Hi. This is a serious answer.
Yes, you can go with ETF's. There is a discussion forum as part of being a subscriber to Motley Fool Share Advisor that is worth the subscription just for the discussion, education and generosity of some very experienced people that newbies considering how/where to invest can find a wealth of information. EFT's direct shares, funds all discussed.
A good way to get a good price for the MFSA I've read is click on the 'subscribe' link but don't actually follow through and pay, and I think you'll get an email a day or two later with a better price - $79 for 1 year I THINK - don't quote me as I can't remember. I read it somewhere.
Having paid advisors thousands of dollars in the past I wish I'd had access to this 20 years ago.
Best value for money IMHO for hearing from real life investors and learn so much. Worth every cent.
Secondly, I recommend checking out Lakehouse Capital and Maven .
Joe Mayger who leads Lakehouse is a guru as far as many of us in the MFSA forum will attest too….. and one other fund that has just started is called Maven, and that has been set up by Matt Joass.
Lakehouse has 2 funds LHSC (small caps) and LHGG (global growth).
Maven is Small Caps.
Matt and Joe were the ones behind the most successful MF service to date. Pro. Having paid financial advisors '000's in the past, to lose me money, having had investment properties that lost me money.
Lakehouse (Joe) is owned by Motley Fool but Maven is Matt's and he has all his family's money in it.
They are both men of integrity and whilst past performance is not a promise of future blah blah - take a look at the returns.
Again, I cannot recommend the price of the MF Share Advisor subscription enough purely for the forum. $100 from $120K is nothing and will likely be tax deductible if you invest in shares.
You can then make decisions about what you'd like to do.
I have invested directly with Matt when his fund started in June this year - up 16% in 3 months and was fortunate to be part of the initial investors in LHGG. I have backed them both as I have so much regard for their ability and respect as men of integrity.
Sincerely, wishing you every success.
Statistically speaking, over 15 years, ~90% of actively managed large cap funds underperform the index (when including fees). Small cap funds fair worse. Google SPIVA Scorecard for more information.
Invested directly in a fund when the market had dropped 40% so far. No offense but even index funds have recovered this and more.
Out of interest, since it’s not on their websites. What’s the fee structure and how much under management are they running?
Cloudy I’m not sure but Both Maven and LH will reply if you email them the question - I know they’ll be closing LHSC at $500million.
I understand the comments above - i really do. Been burnt so badly in the past but the best decision I ever made led me to being in a financial position I could never have imagined with Joe and Matt. Integrity pours from their pores.
I know I read a comment somewhere that LH is the no. 1 performing fund in Oz - sorry I can’t find reference for that.
Oh - and I just remembered you get 30 days money back guarantee so can ask for refund from MFSA to try it out….
So much advice and discussion direct shares, funds, efts, etc - I truly CANNOT recommend it enough for everyone as tremendously valuable.
I get the cynicism - I do. But genuinely Have a look, read the LH newsletters, I started watching Joes recording of last weeks update but had to leave but recommend you look at it.
Join up MFSA and you can spend the weekend reading The “what did you buy/sell forum “ and come back and let me know what you think. In fact I know you’ll find LH and Maven fees etc in their as it’s all discussed but I don’t know how far back ? Look at MAY as that when Maven advised 1 June their start date.
I do remember LHSC. Price went to $1.16 at the march 23 low - there’s price history so you can check. Was at $1.90 In the last few weeks and I think $1.83 this week.
Best to everyone.
Umm, i wasn't even cynical when i first asked my question, not like others, but given you seem invested but you can't tell me the answers to such simple questions, makes me think you're sockpuppeting.
Why wouldn't someone who invest in a fund find out, A what it costs, and B, how much their manager invest? That above all are the first 2 questions i'd ask.
I should also add, i've listened to both before on the three wise monkeys. I don't mind what they do and think they should do well, but they have a very strong tech tilt. Given the roaring growth run we've had, it should be unsurprising they've done well. The true test of a manager is not when the wind blows their back.
@cloudy: Cloudy because I don’t care 🤷‍♀️. They know more than me. Proven it by my returns. I knew at the time but that’s months ago.
I suggested join MFSA for free as 30 day trial and read what those who do care and who are Knowledgeable and Very experienced.
Best to
Everyone
Go to 3rd country and live, teaching english, buy a land, hire people to grow some crops or weed
ASX:VDHG
ASX:VGS
Tempoarily move to Omaha free of clutter and have beers with Warren. (Dividends only attract half the tax). Once Biden gets in get out end enjoy the profits….
In an alternate universe where Biden is actually voted in and becomes President, sure.
He managed to "buy" what he calles a black girl to please the low educated but have a close look into the middle of her face. Not from Rose bay but if you have flied lies….
Commiefornia seems to be passing wealth tax legislating lately and raising state income income.
Visit the "$3k to spend on myself" thread 40 times.
Depends upond timeframe when the money is needed back and if returns are needed during that period.
If it's longer than 6 or 7 years, I'd use it get a larger loan and then invest it 50/50 in Australian / International share index funds.
Invest into property; I'd pay off the mortgage and use it as leverage to get an investment property. If I have any extras, I'd put it into stocks. Investing is quite low now due to Covid but will (hopefully) benefit post-Covid for long term investing.
If you have 120k you can afford to buy some professional advice.
000