Microsoft are matching the JB Hifi price now on their website
The benefit is you can also get Cashrewards through Microsoft Store
Yesterday Microsoft Store was $1444
I bought this at JB yesterday for that reason.
Should have waited a day and got some cashrewards as well. Oh well.
I think today may be the last day.
As I understand it can't run normal windows program, right?
32 bit only
It will run 32 and 64 bit ARM UWP apps (from the Microsoft store), and normal 32-bit x86 Windows apps through emulation. It won't run 64-bit x64 Windows programs though.
Thanks
I believe that x64 support is actually in the works.
The real problem with this unit is that they modified the Snapdragon 8CX (in of itself a modified Snapdragon 855) until it lost one of its main advantages: battery life.
In most use cases, this is barely in better than a host of i5 models from Intel over the last 18 months, while the 8CX can offer almost double the battery life while utilising native ARM applications.
@jasswolf: I don't think its that bad, plenty of users reporting 10-11 hours on single use. All gonna depend on your use case though, I comfortably got over 8-9 hours most days on recommended battery, while driving 2 monitors and screen brightness actually at a readable level.
Surface pro 7 i5 on the other hand could barely limp to 6.5 hours with a mix of battery saver bs, poor performance and low screen brightness.
But yes compared to other ARM devices could be better.
@Osiris: 8-9 hours screen on time is average even compared to Project Athena laptops packing Intel 10th gen. Compared to fanless ARM devices like the iPad, it's far worse. And if you're emulating all those apps you've listed below, the gap widens even more.
@SydStrand: The X doesn't compete with ipad, ipad pro yes. The X isn't a laptop they are completely different form factors with different use cases.
Not all apps are emulated and even when they are the performance doesn't equate to bad. Emulating photoshop = bad, emulating zoom = user won't notice a difference.
You clearly have some axe to grind with the pro which is your call but try to use some valid comparisons if you want to pursue that.
Not all apps are emulated and even when they are the performance doesn't equate to bad. Emulating photoshop = bad, emulating zoom = user won't notice a difference.
This is pure coping. At best, emulation is an imperfect compromise for the absence of native apps on the Windows Store. At the very least, you're taking a hit on battery (the whole reason you'd pick an ARM device); at its worst, performance suffers - like Photoshop.
You clearly have some axe to grind with the pro which is your call but try to use some valid comparisons if you want to pursue that.
I don't have an axe to grind, but unlike me, you actually own one of these devices, and seem to have a stake in this discussion. The Pro X is a niche in a niche, and for 99% of people, there's a better-suited device out there for them. I think even Microsoft knows this, and I'd give even odds that there'll be a Surface Pro X v2 next year.
@SydStrand: Yes I have given this device a shot and had to return it, I've also given my impression of it in the other MS discount post and on whirlpool.
So no, I don't have any dog in this fight I just think its a suitable device for a lot more use cases than you and other ozbargainers want to give it credit for so trying to offer a balanced opinion other than the chorus of "ARM" or "its an expensive ipad" posts.
@Osiris: That's the same as most laptops now, due to the use of either the i5-8265U or 10th Gen U series notebooks. The SQ1 might squeak out a lead if you were exclusively sticking to ARM apps, but the 8cx just dominates it without conceding anything really in real-world performance.
Microsoft blabbed on about their modified chip, but from where I'm sitting they've just overclocked the thing way past its efficiency curve, and then saddled it to a monitor that chews way too much power in the context of the lower power offerings Intel will be pushing via Project Athena.
Perhaps MS are just prepping this chip design for a more integrated custom solution on-going, but from where I'm sitting they can't afford to mess around with battery life for such meagre gains, because an A14 or A14X Macbook will just walk all over them.
@jasswolf: The problem is it's all via emulation, so won't be a great experience all round. I love the look of the Surface Pro X but can look past the CPU.
@superforever: Agree, there is that too, but with the lack of ability to properly run Windows apps it kind of sits in a world of its own with little appeal, for the price.
@eggaz: I think you are mistaken as to what apps it can run. Let's take some standard apps you might use for day to day work. These are either available, can be emulated without issue or work (surprisingly awesomely) as webapps through chromium edge:
Outside of design and video editing apps it will run most things. There's a neat following of developers over on reddit who even use this device for programming through WSL2.
I'm not saying there aren't limits obviously x64 with no webapp capability will be a non-starter but people should think about their use cases as might be surprised how capable it is.
@Osiris: Everything you've listed is the lightest of the light computing, which could be accomplished by an iPad, or even a Chromebook. Move onto Photoshop (something I'd still consider light computing), and it's practically unusable.
@SydStrand: I can also run most of these apps on a phone, does that mean its suitable for work? can it drive two monitors and be as quick and productive?
@Osiris: A phone is not intended to be a full productivity device; I'd think the screen size would tip you off. If you compare like-for-like e.g. Pro 7, iPad Pro, or even an Intel 2-in-1 like the XPS 13 7390, the Pro X falls short by more metrics than not, while costing more.
@SydStrand: If you are looking to purchase this device and find yourself comparing it to a laptop, then you clearly don't need this form factor for your use case, you may as well compare it to a desktop.
Ipad vs Surface Pro X is going to come down to ecosystem, both are expensive when comparing like for like. For Surface Pro X vs Pro 7, why would you go the X perhaps:
- Better battery life
- Better inking experience
- Better bigger screen
Ultimately its about choices, if you are a value shopper than you might not even be looking at a pro and may be considering HP's offering for example.
Everything you've listed is the lightest of the light computing, which could be accomplished by an iPad, or even a Chromebook. Move onto Photoshop (something I'd still consider light computing), and it's practically unusable(youtu.be).
You are clearly not the target market for this. You have to remember that there are many different kinds of computer users around. Some poeple really don't care about computers apart from getting work done.
All they do are MS Office tasks, some web browsing, and now maybe some Zoom if they're not fully on Teams. Then maybe some YouTube or Netflix after work - that's it. They're absolutely not going to be running Photoshop or editing videos. They have no idea what "x64" is and don't care about it. They don't spend their time downloading random software to run because they don't live on their computers - they see it as simply a tool to get work done.
They're used to all those Office apps from their work computer, so rather than get an iPad or Chromebook and re-learn a whole new OS that's gimped in some aspects, they can get a Surface Pro X.
A Surface Pro X could serve their needs perfectly fine, have a slimmer form factor, better battery life, bigger screen, run completely silent, and have the best inking experience with apps like OneNote.
A Surface Pro 7 can run x64 apps, but if the user is not going to do it, that point is moot.
Tech-aware people like us (people on online forums are in the minority) need to remember that there's a huge world outside our tech bubble. I would never buy the Surface Pro X as my primary laptop as it's far too limited for my use, but I understand that not everyone uses computers the way I do. I can look at people around me and decide who I can recommend an ARM device to, and who should absolutely avoid it. It's definitely not a laptop for everyone, but for the people who fit its use cases, it's definitely a decent device.
It can, just not particularly well.
SP7 is a much better option for 99.9% of the people
Agree. This is just a big mobile phone without the phone.
If the only apps that are needed are available on ARM, this device would work well, with longer battery life and a thinner fanless form factor.
e.g. someone who only needs to do office work on it would have no problems running MS Office, Teams, Zoom, and Edge. It definitely won't suit content creators as video and photo editing apps would run sloooowly unless they are ARM-specific apps.
I think the above examples cover a large number of users, so there certainly is a market for the X. People just have to keep in mind their usage cases when deciding which one to go for.
@eug: as someone who probably get chromebook because all I do is on chrome and have little apps like logitech's device manager. It was terrible.
It's a known issue that the SPX cannot run electron apps(eg. logitech's app)/notion/etc.
Even if we let go of those apps, chrome took an obscene amount of time to run. Perhaps it's my extensions, but yea. I think it's been given enough chances.
I agree, it's a shame they never updated the form factor to match the Surface Pro X.
Yea I wouldn't really buy one which isn't 64 bit
My use case for it was as a general Web browsing content viewing device.
I also wanted to be able to read digital magazines without having to zoom in to read text.
I use the zinio progressive web app for reading and can read magazines at page level without zooming.
Also the arm edge browser allows extensions from the chrome store.
The only site that I have had a problem with is disney+
Cant get content to play, works fine in the arm Firefox browser though.
I'm also using the device perfectly well using the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen touchpad is also useful in some circumstances.
Thanks for this, aligns with what my use-case would be for this device.
Interesting about Disney+, but thankfully there were other options as a workaround.
Bit surprised Disney+ is a problem with this item, seeing as it works well on all our Samsung mobile phones and ipad Air2.
Only use my son's iPad Air2 and my Galaxy mobile these days. Photo/video software on son's HP laptop run well for him, but I don't have need for those. Don't have much need for Office now but don't want to lose skills either.
Often think about getting myself something better but just not sure what to buy anymore. These appeal to me (portability etc.) but don't want to waste money either. Been years doing without and just using phone and borrowing ipad. Difficult to know what is the best option for me. Any suggestions?
No need to spend. Android phone and iPad are best combo. If you are not doing gaming no need to upgrade. Don't see an issue
Can I play Fortnite on this?
It does game stream from an Xbox.
Don't think it would be great for native games unless they had been built for arm
Xcloud is coming to ARM so there's that too which will be nice.
i was looking at this and the Galaxy book S. I love the light it is. I checked the specs and realise they are like big mobiles.
Useful for some people, especially those who can live with using a tablet/ipad without the need for a proper computer.
It's wild to me that after the complete failure that was the original Surface RT, Microsoft are trying again with a WAY more expensive device. I wish them luck though…
Yes kind of, at least they are availing 32bit windows apps to run on this one.
They have 32bit apps, the OS isn't locked down like it was last time and ARM processors themselves have become far more prevalent in other productive machines. There's also x64 emulating in the pipeline.
MS has screwed over users plenty of times so you should be cautious but its not history repeating exactly as before.
On the one hand they have improved the situation with the OS but on the otherhand the device is way more expensive and so would likely have a much smaller install base. I figure the smart thing to do would be sell them cheap at a loss to get people onto the ARM version of Windows and buying apps in the store ASAP, otherwise I don't see how this won't just be a repeat of Windows RT.
@CEO Rachel Jake: You're assuming everyone uses computers the way you do. There are lots of computer users who only want to run MS Office and Zoom, browse the web, and maybe watch Netflix/YouTube. The bigger screen and faster performance makes this a viable device for that.
The Surface RT had a small 10.6" screen, slower performance, the much-disliked Windows 8 UI, and no x86 compatibility. There's a big difference between the two.
i bought the surface RT when it came out all those years ago,
omg, it made me cringe……. i had nightmares about it, and all i wanted to do was browse the internet, which it barely could do
add to that mine seemd to drain battery even when off, it would empty in a few days of no use
luckily I used it about 5 times subsequently to watch movies on a plane
only bought my second ever microsft device last year, am loving it
Whilst it’s cheaper than it usually is and is a beautiful piece of hardware, it doesn’t change the fundamental fact that it’s not a true “Windows” PC in terms of what most people think of. If they had priced this tablet significantly lower (potentially at the expense of build quality or some other premium feature) then maybe it would be more forgivable but at this price point, I don’t see the value in buying a windows 2 in 1 for $1000+ which isn’t really a windows 2 in 1 in terms of performance/usability.
You make some valid points
I was looking to replace my 2014 MacBook Air
For my use case posted earlier, I was seriously looking at a convertible Chromebook.
These are not the cheapest in larger screen sizes thin bezel.
The price discount plus this youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCJX5en6G7Q
Convinced me to go for the Pro X
I'm glad I did.
Think of this device as a good tablet with some light "Windows PC" functionality
Yeah odd they went down this path. Basically to create an iPad pro copy. I reckon people who buy ipad pro is a different customer to someone buying ms products, and a regular windows customer may be very disappointed with this. But I suppose the other side of things is theyre prob moving certain customers to a chromebook way of working and thinking.
True and chrome books are starting to encroach on mid range market rather than just the sub $500 predominantly education bracket.
Think this is one of the best prices I have seen this device go for but that slim pen bundle just packs a bunch of a price even when the device is this cheap.
Is there a big pad like this running the Android?
So it's basically a Chromebook except without any of the benefits?
Are these good for gaming ?
depends on “?”
12
people promoting how good the pro x is for the price clearly have deep pockets
More like shallow pockets that can’t contain cash for long.
Was given one of these to use for work in a recent job. Biggest POS. Do not buy. Within a year the company changed to iPads.
Why?
Hmmm. They only been out for 6 months or so. Sounds like you may be taking about something else?
I can’t believe that after the Surface RT debacle where Microsoft orphaned all the owners, Microsoft is trying the same thing again.
My advice: stay away.
Why?
Because if Microsoft's track record taught us anything (Windows Phone, I'm talking about you) it'll turn into a very expensive paperweight in a year or so.
You think they're gonna abandon their Surface line???
@Mooncakes: I think they’re referring to the various attempts at windows on ARM processors… but Microsoft also does have a track record with abandoning certain lines they invested heavily in but didn’t take off as much as they wanted. No different to others I suppose.
Windows Phone was a massive failure, due to limited apps and popularity. I see the ARM Surface going down the same route.
Oops. I think I downvoted by mistake. Meant to be an upvote. Sorry about that!
Microsoft is trying the same thing again
They're not, this is proper Windows. Sorry for the history lesson but back in the day Windows NT4 ran on multiple architectures including PowerPC, MIPS and DEC Alpha. SGI died, IBM sold its consumer division to Lenovo and HP migrated to itanic but Windows doesn't necessarily imply x86.
c.f. Apple - 'everyone' in silicon valley will hail Macbook's transition to ARM64 next year as a gamechanger.
No, the world is different now.
This has nothing to do with the RT
Does anyone actually have one of these?
ARM CPU u gotta be kidding me
ARM is the new Intel i7
ARM for NAS I understand but for full fledge Windows tablet. Just no.
Cheap android tablet sure
This or surface pro 7
Pro 7
Heck, even a pro 6 or 5 is better if you can find it
So this is like mix between a chromebook the original surface RT? and not a real PC?
I rekon it is surface RT gen 2
or u may call it surface XT XD
Sort of but not as bad because it can emulate non-native apps (32 bit only), just with slowdown. The RT was completely (profanity) if there wasn't a store app.
If the app has native (office, edge) it flies, if its emulating it takes a decent hit. So it really depend on the apps you use. Office and web browsing you're covered. Its lighter, bigger screen and longer battery life than the Pro, and also there's a LTE option so if you live in Office 365 / browser you'll be fine. A couple of colleagues have them and like them, but they both resort to the 'full fat' laptops on occasion, just use this on the road.
PSA: You can buy the type cover and pen bundle for $318 on good guys commercial website.
https://www.thegoodguyscommercial.com.au/microsoft-surface-p…
damn shame its behind the commercial programme lock, but that is a great price for the bundle.
I feel sheepish. I cannot even work out how to create an account.
This is the most powerful FANLESS Windows 10 machine out there. It runs ice cool so if you hate the sound of fans firing up every minute like most Intel machines I would highly recommend it.
I've had one since January and hooked up to a 4k display I have no issues with slowdown at all. Sure, I spend most of the time using Edge Chromium (native ARM) but I can't ever see myself going back to Intel with all the heat issues that come with it.
It's a great machine!
Besides Surface Pro 7 which has been mentioned a few times in this thread, for thinness & portability, simple apps (word processing / Netflix / Plex) etc, what would be another equivalent device that is thin, light, keyboard addition (that hopefully isn't iPad)?
Those of you who are buying it from this deal - should we also buy keyboard + pen from Microsoft + cashrewards?
Does anyone recommend the pen? What is it used for? Most of us type faster than we can write. (I have read this entire thread.)
You'd be better of reading or watching some reviews, while you can use it for launching apps or as another pointing device on screen, the main benefit of the pen on any surface product is basically note taking (inking) or for art purposes (eg sketching/drawing). If you don't intend to do at least one of those things then you wouldn't need the pen.
Have a good think about it upfront though, because if you don't need the pen then you will save money by buying the regular X type cover. The regular cover doesn't have the slot for the pen in it, so if you want to add the pen later you won't have the benefits of the pen slot unless you buy a whole other type cover (I believe the cover with pen slot is only sold as part of the bundle too).
In addition to your stated requirements. Do you have a proper computer? Ie. Another laptop? Or will this device become your primary device/home pc? And what do you want it to do that your smartphone cant do, eg. stream YouTube, Spotify etc. Personally if you just want an iPad alternative, (a windows tablet lets say), go for the much cheaper Surface Go, which remains a fully functioning computer able to run proper windows. The 10' form factor makes it great for reading comics as well as magazines (eg from a rbdigital subscription).
the slim pen is $230!!!!
even stylus gets body shamed!
then the keyboard is $219!!!!
I am not rich enough for this
Which case do you guys get for the Pro X?
Cool thanks