Can't Find a Job. Advice?

LSarah11 on 29/02/2020 - 23:06
Last edited 29/02/2020 - 23:25

I'm in the process finishing a computer science degree, and have been actively looking for my first job as a junior software developer, but have not even been able to get a single interview. Lately I have become quite disheartened about my future prospects in the field. At this stage, I would even be willing to take an unpaid internship as I need some experience.

My grades are very strong, I have put a lot of work into my portfolio and am involved in various IT meetups and hackathons, I am a female so am worried that it may be the reason why I'm finding it so difficult (perception that women can't code is still common unfortunately). I do have a males name though, so may not be the actual reason, not sure.

What do you think I should do to increase my chances of finding work? Masters degree? Bootcamp?

Education & Work

Comments

  • th123 on 29/02/2020 - 23:15
    +22

    Sarah11
    male name

    ?

    Based on the post, I'd probably:

    • Get someone to check your CL and resume for errors.
    • Sarah11 on 29/02/2020 - 23:19
      +3

      Thanks I was considering getting it professionally reviewed. Sarah11 is just my username obviously.

      Would you recommend getting industry certs or even doing a bootcamp? I've heard they can really improve your chances.

        • Sarah11 on 01/03/2020 - 15:37
          +3

          It's technically a unisex name, but only men seem to be called it these days. I'm not saying it as it may identify me.

            • ThithLord on 02/03/2020 - 08:36
              +22

              @Tiges98: Tiges is a very odd name to be called, do you get many nicknames?

            • BargainCowboy on 02/03/2020 - 11:42

              @Tiges98: Not true, I don't know where you got this from. Sarah is the biblical Sara, Avraham's (Abraham's) wife.

          • HighAndDry on 02/03/2020 - 08:51

            @Sarah11: Blake?

            • Munki on 02/03/2020 - 10:25

              @HighAndDry: Blake Lively is quite womanly.

              • HighAndDry on 02/03/2020 - 17:16

                @Munki: Yeah, but I always thought it was cool she rocked a (typically/commonly) male name so well, and fits OP's case.

                • Munki on 02/03/2020 - 17:32

                  @HighAndDry: I do admit, that's the only female Blake I can think of.

        • Icecold5000 on 01/03/2020 - 15:43

          I am a female so am worried

          What do you think

        • tagin on 02/03/2020 - 11:23

          Tony, Andy

        • nignucial on 02/03/2020 - 20:39

          Sam?

      • Bryanalves on 01/03/2020 - 16:14

        What is your name? Also if you normally wear a head scarf I've had a few friends that took the scarf off for interview and for jobs by doing that.

      • Excelsior on 02/03/2020 - 12:31
        +2

        Alternatively, look for discussion boards (eg. Whirlpool, Reddit) relating to your specific niche and get some resume advice from users who are working in the industry. You might pick up a few things that you missed.

      • akashra on 02/03/2020 - 17:11

        Depends on the industry cert. Some are worthwhile and of questionable legitimacy in the quality of their teachings (and are just trash). Industry certs I would however recommend include any CCNA/CCNP/CCNEs, MCSE or OCA/OCP/OCM courses. It was getting to the point when we were dealing with Java where we were getting 100 applications for a job, and I was about to say "let's just make OCA/OCP a minimum requirement for us to even read a resume". Anyone who's serious about actually getting the job will just go out and sit the exam - if you're actually any good, you can read the a book on OCA and ace the exam inside a week (when I did it the first time it was basically decide on Monday I was gonna do it, sit the exam on Wednesday morning). You would be astounded how many graduate level applications would not be able to pass even the OCA, and those applications are just a complete and utter waste of our time when trying to hire.

    • Zachary on 01/03/2020 - 03:03
      -7

      I thought Sarah was a girl's name….?

      • WreckTangle on 01/03/2020 - 08:51
        +10

        A girls username…

        • Zachary on 01/03/2020 - 13:03
          -6

          I'm confused…..I'm lead to believe it's a girls name but apparently it's not?

          • omgitzrick on 01/03/2020 - 14:10
            +12

            @Zachary: Username =/= real name

            • public-secret on 01/03/2020 - 18:28
              +22

              @omgitzrick: or

              userName != realName

              since she is a programmer ;)

            • Zachary on 02/03/2020 - 16:02
              -1

              @omgitzrick: Oh I see, I'm an idiot….

              I am a female so am worried that it may be the reason why I'm finding it so difficult (perception that women can't code is still common unfortunately). I do have a males name though, so may not be the actual reason, not sure.

              She's a female but has a male name. Full quote context wasn't used and was wondering why th123 thinks Sarah is a male's name from his post….when in fact he was arguing about the username being female and not male at all and of course assumed this was her name….which apparently isn't….

    • DingoBilly on 02/03/2020 - 10:28
      +28

      Wow people really don't understand that a username is different to a person's real name here.

      Lot of wasted jokes/effort on their name instead of actually trying to help.

      • 01011010 on 02/03/2020 - 11:52
        +12

        are you suggesting your name isn't Dingo Billy?

        • serpserpserp on 02/03/2020 - 13:03
          +5

          Well I know for a fact your name is 01110110 and not 01011010.

      • YellowDieselGolf on 03/03/2020 - 17:37

        Phew. For a moment, OZb tricked me into thinking I was a Yellow 1979 Volkswagen Golf GLD.

  • Mikinoz on 29/02/2020 - 23:20
    +15

    Get on a grad program with one of the larger companies out there. Easy to get a good role once your foots in the door.

    I get grads and interns for my team whenever I get the chance. Most are successful

    • Sarah11 on 29/02/2020 - 23:22
      +8

      I've been rejected from every grad and internship program I have applied for. It is just so competitive, can't even get an interview. I will keep trying though. Thanks

      • Bidet Mate on 01/03/2020 - 12:51
        +8

        How far afield are you searching? I couldn't get a job in Victoria after graduating and applying over 100 places, as soon as I sucked it up and looked interstate I walked right in to an above award rate job 2000km away (I'm pretty sure it was my first interstate application too). It's not ideal but neither is unemployment. For me it was a choice between working a shitty non related job where in a place i was comfortable or taking a plunge away from my safety net to get a foot in the door where I wanted to be.

        • Sarah11 on 01/03/2020 - 13:35
          +2

          I haven't been looking that far as I am still at uni in melbourne. After I graduate, I would be willing to travel interstate or overseas. Would love to work overseas actually.

          • Gina Rinehart on 02/03/2020 - 07:30
            +14

            @Sarah11: Apply for the grad programs in other states (government in Canberra too) now as many close by mid-april. You can stay at uni in Melbourne during the application process and the roles start early next year.

            Also check out Whirlpool's grad programs board, might give you good ideas.

      • sakurashu on 01/03/2020 - 21:19

        This from Mikinoz is the best advice - If you have good grades I'm surprised you haven't even gotten to the assessment centre stages for graduate programs

      • Musing Outloud on 03/03/2020 - 19:59
        +1

        A few general tips:
        * It is easier to have someone working on your side. Approach several job agents in your target industry (IT is a wide field) and see if you can get contract work to get work experience up. Get your agent(s) to rewrite your resume for their target employers.
        * Your Uni should have arrangements with various companies in your city around jobs. Find out how those companies seek graduates. For example in Sydney at Macquarie Uni, Woolworths seeks grads.
        * Be lateral in what you do as a first job. It may not be exactly in your field, or in your field at all. The aim here is to get a foot in the door. For example if it is a bank, rather than coding they want analysts or fraud investigators, or something else, apply for those, get in and after 6 to 12 months look for roles where your interests lie. Easier to get into your ideal job while in a job. Also very easy to transfer internally.
        * Try and avoid unpaid internships. Invariably these do not educate you, while a company cheats interns out of payment for a 12 - 14 week max window.
        * Grad programs can be tough to get a look into as many apply. Also give these a shot, but don't pin your hopes on them due to competition. Most get through without a grad program to help. Spread your chances by also doing what I've outlined above.

        Best of luck, hope these tips help. Over to you!

      • cameldownunder on 04/03/2020 - 12:02

        Have you applied at NASDAQ ? If you have relatives in Israel or China your chances are relatively high to get a job there. If you want to apply, I am happy to have a chat with you. P.M. me

    • R-Man on 02/03/2020 - 08:21
      +2

      but have not even been able to get a single interview.

      Your advice:

      Get on a grad program with one of the larger companies out there

      Which have something like 19,000 applications each intake

      • serpserpserp on 02/03/2020 - 13:07

        Someone has to get the position. Why not you?

        I took this tact when I finished uni. I had average grades but had worked during my uni years and got involved in student clubs etc. I got a few grad role offers and ended up taking one in a big corporation. Which coincidently only had 2 positions and we were told had over 4000 applications.

        Another tidbit was it was for a program in Sydney and me and the other person were from interstate!

        • R-Man on 03/03/2020 - 18:29
          +3

          Yeah your 2nd paragraph is what the advice should have been - get part time experience, get involved in clubs

          I'm dumbfounded at the number of + votes and supporting comments

          "I can't make naan because I don't have any dough"

          "Make roti then"

          • peterpeterpumpkin on 05/03/2020 - 10:09
            +1

            @R-Man: "Just get a casual gig at a reputable company, like Google. Should be easy to get a full-time job after that. Don't be lazy OP!"

        • Ghost47 on 05/03/2020 - 18:55

          I think the job market is much larger in Sydney. I know people who absolutely struggled to find work in Melbourne but it was a walk in the park in Sydney.

          • serpserpserp on 06/03/2020 - 17:24

            @Ghost47: I agree with that somewhat. Depends on the industry.

            Melbourne can be hard if you aren't prepared to work hard at it. But you know, it is the second biggest job market in Australia so opportunities are there.

            • Ghost47 on 09/03/2020 - 10:11

              @serpserpserp: What industries would you say have more jobs in Melbourne?

              I would guess.. banking or financial? Sydney seems to have more IT and more big pharma. Telco could be an even split (as Telstra is in Melbourne and Optus is in Sydney). Melbourne might have more automotive.

              • serpserpserp on 09/03/2020 - 10:21
                +1

                @Ghost47:

                What industries would you say have more jobs in Melbourne?

                I didn't say this. When I said it depends on industry I was talking about struggling to find a job. Some industries just don't exist in Melbourne, others are very well supported.

                Down in Melbourne I'd say getting a job in the non-sales side of the banking or financial industry is probably easier. But it is pretty evenly split and if you are in the institutional/corporate/investment banking side of the business (customer facing) you have a much easier time getting work in Sydney. Plus all the ancillary Insurance/FIs businesses are mostly based in Sydney.

                I think there are a lot of IT jobs in Melbourne, pretty lucky in that respect. I think they obviously pay better in Sydney though. Pharma is definitely tiered towards Sydney, although pharmaceutical retail/distribution is down here a little.

                Telco seems fairly evenly split with the secondary players split too.

                Retail seems pretty Melbourne based but again, it is always going to be where the population is.

                • Ghost47 on 09/03/2020 - 11:10

                  @serpserpserp: Fair enough, what I was trying to ask was what industries are more prevalent in Melbourne and therefore would have more jobs that could be avaiable.

                  Thanks for the info!

      • eunnip on 03/03/2020 - 14:25
        +1

        Yeah I love this advice.
        It's ss if OP hasn't thought of this or tried, and this was a brand new idea.

  • trustnoone on 29/02/2020 - 23:40
    +3

    am involved in various IT meetups and hackathons, I am a female

    I know a fair few females employed through hackathons, interestingly I've heard 3 times now that from a typical group they picked out and employed only the females, so while it sounds like you haven't found a job opportunity yet, its definitely may be a good way to go.

    Experience is the big one I think, without it you'll probably find job hunting super hard unless you're going for internship positions. I know I'm not a female but for me it was impossible to get a tech job until some guy finally gave me a chance in an unpaid 12 week internship. It had nothing to do with IT (though it was still technology) but just that was enough to start getting into IT grad programs.

  • [Deactivated] on 29/02/2020 - 23:51
    +58

    I am a female

    This works in your favour in the current PC workplace to fill their quotas.

    How many places have you applied to? I have met people who tell me they've been looking for jobs for months only for me to find out they've put in a handful of applications, and all those applications were for two companies. Ie. Two actual applications.

      • SlavOz on 01/03/2020 - 01:35
        +39

        Mind you, I still think that many people are suspicious of female programmers because they assume we are probably not very good. And if I do get hired, some will probably assume that it is because I am female who is there to fill a quota and not because I am actually the best candidate.

        Maybe start by changing your attitude first. You're going in assuming the worst in people, how do you expect them to assume the best in you? You also sound like you're pre-emptively giving yourself an excuse to fail.

        It probably has nothing to do with your gender and more to do with a bad resume or application that you're not seeing.

        • Sarah11 on 01/03/2020 - 01:50
          +28

          You're going in assuming the worst in people, how do you expect them to assume the best in you?

          I'm not assuming anything. I am an active member in IT working spaces with other programmers (1-2 times a week). I often get patronising comments like I write good code for a girl and or I should focus on frontend so I can make websites look pretty. I even once got asked at an IT talk if I there to drop off my boyfriend at the event (I was a solo attendee). Studies also suggest that people tend to rate code worse after they have found out it was written by a female (https://www.livescience.com/53729-bias-against-female-coders…). Nonetheless, I've also met some incredibly supportive people along the way, so its not all bad.

          As I said, I have a male name, so my cv is probably the problem. But I am extremely ambitious and open to exploring solutions including more training. I'm planning for my success, not failure.

          • try2bhelpful on 01/03/2020 - 08:16
            +37

            @Sarah11: You are right about the sexism, whatever the others say. I’m female and I worked in IT for over 30 years and I’ve seen, and heard, some pretty extraordinary things in that time. Starting with my initial interview for my first job where the manager asked if I was planning to have kids, and when I said “no”, he said “good, I don’t like women abandoning their kids in the home”. I got the job and he was, actually, a great guy - he just had some odd ideas. I was talking to one of my bosses and he said when he took over a group every female in the group was being paid less than every male, he set about reviewing this situation. If the boss has an “attitude” it is easy to get away with this sort of rubbish because you aren’t meant to talk about salaries.

            When I got out of my degree I went for a bunch of interviews and got offered seven jobs, but back then if a chicken had an IT degree they would’ve offered them a job. Now it is a lot harder.

            My personal recommendation is;
            a) get someone to review your CV. HR, and managers, are looking for reasons to bin CVs so they don’t need to review them in depth. Look for spelling errors, poorly worded sections, blatant exaggerations, etc.you also want to tailor your cover letter for each organisation you apply for, something relevant to their company. Don’t have something that is generic for all of them.
            b) look to get some experience. Internship, offering to assist charities with IT, writing phone Apps, etc. Something where you can lay out this was the issue and this is how I resolved it.
            c) you will probably do best with the bigger organisations, but right now you need the foot in the door.
            d) use whatever networks you can, get in with people who already work in the industry and see if you can get recommended, companies prefer that over an unknown
            e) when you get a job build a reputation for delivering “smart” and working hard. Keep networking, it is the best path to doing your current job and switching jobs. However, networking means, genuinely, helping others not just trying to use them.
            f) be ambitious in that you are prepared to step up and take responsibility; be prepared for the flack when you fail. The most important thing is “delivery”. The effort in prep work, and communication, is very important
            g) Your reputation is the most valuable thing you have. Tend it very carefully.

            Best of luck.

            • Skinnerr on 01/03/2020 - 19:49
              +2

              @try2bhelpful: This is sound advice, for anyone in almost any field. Thanks for sharing this and your experience.

            • serpserpserp on 02/03/2020 - 13:20
              +2

              @try2bhelpful: I would add to this great advice something that has helped me at every point in my career securing a new job: Be unapologetically enthusiastic to every person you meet that can get you a job.

              You need to absolutely sell yourself as a person who has energy, a positive attitude to go along with the skills you have. This combination is what people seem to believe is "Passion" but to be honest you don't know it is your passion until you get a job, so you have to fake it and convince everyone that the job you are applying for is your dream job. This has to come across in your cover letter, your resume needs to be short and to the point with your achievements and very little to do with your qualifications. When you get to the point of actually talking to people, you need to come across as the most friendliest, enthusiastic and knowledgeable person that this Hiring manager/HR person has spoken to about the role. You need to make sure you are remembered.

              You are in charge of showing the world that you are the perfect person for the job. No one else is going to look at an average resume/cover letter and think "maybe I should just give this person a chance…" You have to convince them, thus your cover letter and resume needs to be outstanding quality. Given you have little experience, your resume could literally be one side of an A4 piece of paper, your cover letter should be very detailed (but try to also keep to one side of an A4 paper.)

              It is a cold world, go out there and take what's yours!

              Good luck!

              • try2bhelpful on 02/03/2020 - 16:21

                @serpserpserp: True. What they are also looking for is someone who can hit the ground running. The cover letter needs to be tailored towards the specific job you are applying to and why you are the best candidate to do it. You need to understand the company, read up about it; the same with the position you are applying for. If you don’t have everything they are after you have to show how you can, quickly, come up to speed. If you get an interview you have to ask them about current things being worked on and how you can drive this forward.

                Most of the time you feel like you are faking it until you make it but, generally, if you ask nicely, people will help you understand. It seems to me there is nothing people like better than talking through an issue and workshopping the solution. I never considered myself “above” doing stuff. If your reputation is you will muck in and help, you find people will reciprocate. You don’t have to be “the most qualified” you have to be the person most likely to deliver the solution.

            • squall3031 on 05/03/2020 - 01:36

              @try2bhelpful: Sexism does exist in workplace.
              I work in an environment where it's female dominant and quite often female workers get promoted faster than male workers.
              It's very frustrating. I've been backstabbed this year by my manager when she installed a female team leader to manage my team and the team leader took away my responsibilities to look after those who are under me. Now I'm reduced to just a grunt worker.

              • try2bhelpful on 05/03/2020 - 06:43

                @squall3031: Discuss this with your manager and map out your career pathway with her. Find out if she has a particular issue with what you are currently doing rather than your sex. This is the advice I would give to someone of either sex. Good luck with the discussions.

                If would observe, though, if i said something like this, for a male dominated environment, a fair number of the people here would be telling me that male progression is the natural order and I was the issue. The vast majority of senior management, in most places, is male dominated and continues to be so despite so called “diversity” hiring.

              • try2bhelpful on 05/03/2020 - 11:07

                @squall3031: I also find it interesting that you went straight to sexism when your manager hired an female replacement, what would you have thought if she hired another male? You, immediately, assumed that the hire was based on the person’s gender, and not their ability. Maybe you need to consider your own attitude, as well. As I said, talk to your manager to find out why the hire happened. Keep it professional, don’t make accusations you can’t back up. Best of luck.

          • SlavOz on 01/03/2020 - 12:39
            -7

            @Sarah11:

            I'm not assuming anything. I am an active member in IT working spaces with other programmers (1-2 times a week). I often get patronising comments like I write good code for a girl

            Right, and you're using those few instances of patronising comments to assume that everyone you encounter in the hiring process or at your next job will instantly treat you the same way. That's stereotyping, no different to seeing a few crimes committed by Black people and then assuming that any future Black person you encounter will also be a criminal. It's a terrible attitude to have, fuelled by a toxic brand of modern feminism that seeks to turn all women into hostile naggers. Be better.

            • Icecold5000 on 01/03/2020 - 15:45
              +10

              @SlavOz: You have issue with females from your past posts.

            • try2bhelpful on 01/03/2020 - 16:16
              +3

              @SlavOz: So you decide to go for the stereotype by talking about “naggers”. Whilst we still have people who talk like this we will still have problems. People who think there is no problem out there and that we should just accept that the current state of affairs is absolutely fine. “Toxic feminists”, what an absolute joke. I agree someone needs to be better, but it isn’t the OP. My experience is that is takes a while for most women to stop saying “maybe it’s me” and then wonder if there might just be something wrong with the systems. If you don’t experience this first hand you don’t see it. I've spent most of my working life where the vast majority of my coworkers were male, and most of them were terrific guys, but I still needed to point out when they crossed the line between acceptable and unacceptable; and, believe, me I had a pretty broad line there. You don’t comment on coworkers breast, you don’t show videos of Domestic violence, you don’t have naked pictures on your desk. All things you think would be common sense but, apparently, not. When you are in the minority it is hard to take a stand but the behaviour you walk by is the behaviour you accept.

              • SlavOz on 02/03/2020 - 19:31
                -8

                @try2bhelpful:

                People who think there is no problem out there and that we should just accept that the current state of affairs is absolutely fine.

                What exactly is the problem? Women have just as many legal privileges as men do. In fact they often get treated better in many areas, like family courts, domestic violence cases, maternity leave etc. That there are men who don't think they can write code well is hardly a reason to take up arms and rebel against the system. Looks like you don't value someone's right to their personal opinion.

                “Toxic feminists”, what an absolute joke

                It's not a joke. It's very common behaviour reported by pyshcologists and academics. What else would you call it when (not in this particular case, but it happens a lot) a woman falsely claims she was abused in order to gain notoriety or ruin someone's life? Here's an interesting take on toxic femininity in the workplace:

                https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog…

                but I still needed to point out when they crossed the line between acceptable and unacceptable; and, believe, me I had a pretty broad line there.

                Well, anecdotal experiences don't count for much. I've mostly worked with women my entire life and grew up in a female dominated household. I've also had to have countless heated discussions around what's OK and what's not OK. Just a few days ago I had a senior female colleague make a comment (positive or negative regardless) about my body shape.

                • try2bhelpful on 02/03/2020 - 20:01
                  +5

                  @SlavOz: Actually with you examples it is not the case. If we were being treated better with Domestic Violence we wouldn’t have more than one woman, a week, killed by their partner; there would be a better way to deal with it. If child care was working properly then women’s careers wouldn’t fall behind and they would have the same super. Women wouldn’t, on average, be paid less. There are a lot of issues out there that still needs to be addressed.

                  Not sure about “Toxic feminists” but “toxic masculinity” is, certainly, a problem. Males commit 80% of violent crimes. Perhaps that is something that needs to be addressed before we worry about women becoming “naggers”. Yes there are people who falsely report but they are, by far, in the minority. Most women under report because they don’t want to “make a fuss”. What they really want is for the crap to just stop. You talk about the fact my anecdotes don’t cut it whilst using your own. I’m sorry, your anecdote isn’t in the same ballpark as mine. Frankly I don’t think anyone should be subject to people discussing their “body shape” but a lot of woman are putting up with far worse than that.

                  I certainly don’t blame “all men”, I’ve lived with a great man for 40 years and I’ve worked with some terrific ones. They would look at your comments and disown them. They understand there is an issue and they are part of the solution not part of the problem. You don’t get to excuse bad behaviour by saying “look over there”; you deal with the biggest issues first. My man is probably a better feminist than I am because he won’t let the rubbish slide. He calls it what it is. He understands having a partner who can hold her own with putting food on the table is a very big positive.

                  • SlavOz on 04/03/2020 - 21:56
                    -3

                    @try2bhelpful:

                    If we were being treated better with Domestic Violence we wouldn’t have more than one woman, a week, killed by their partner

                    That's a very odd thing to say given that women commit domestic violence at a much higher rate than men do.

                    If child care was working properly then women’s careers wouldn’t fall behind and they would have the same super

                    Nobody forces women to have a child and they certainly don't force women to be the primary carer of that child in a relationship. That is a decision women make themselves.

                    Why should somebody pay you for not working?

                    Males commit 80% of violent crimes

                    They also make up the majority of victims of violent crimes, including rape. They also make up the majority of people who've enabled women's independence and progression. It was literally men who invented and funded your tampons, pills, and other essential needs for survival.

                    • try2bhelpful on 04/03/2020 - 23:47

                      @SlavOz: Women do not commit the majority of domestic violence crimes. Even the most hardened “men’s” groups don’t claim that. You still haven’t addressed the fact that women are killed by either their partner, or ex partner, at more than one per week. A little fact you can’t actually ignore in your portraying yourself as the “male victim”.

                      Children are created by the joining of an egg and a sperm. Both parties should contribute to bringing up the child. You haven’t seen a lot of the status of women around the world if you think all women always “choose” to bear a child. There are a lot of places where abortion is illegal, even if the pregnancy is due to rape. Society norms are that women are expected to be the primary care giver and that their careers are the ones to suffer, it is the way society is structured. Why aren’t guys out there demanding that it should be restructured so they get equal responsibility in bringing up the children? Where are the marches and the special interest groups lobbying parliament to fix this? If this is, truly, what men wanted they would be championing this idea. Work flexibility for both parties so the child is brought up, equally, by each. There are a lot of women who would be more than happy to stand with them on this.

                      Yes men are the majority victims of male violence, so it absolutely floors me why men don’t do more to try to halt the violence their fellow males perpetrate. You think they would be at the barricades trying to reduce toxic masculinity and strive for a culture where violence is abhorred? Why aren’t men advocating for better services to provide violent men with the tools to reduce their offending. Why aren’t they calling them out for appalling behaviour? Where are the male marches supporting the male victims of men’s violence? Why aren’t they pushing for school programs based on respect, resilience and improving emotional intelligence?

                      Actually it is women who are, more and more, driving the innovative technology for managing periods. Tampons, and pads, are damaging to the environment and sometimes damaging to the wearer. You’ve obviously, never tried to insert a tampon or you would know just how inadequate they really are. Given it is, only, just over 100 years since women got the vote and the last 50 years that women started , really, going to University in any numbers, we are making great strides. We went from, virtually, scratch to having women doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc: whilst still being the people that bear children and do the majority of the housework. As I’ve indicated, I managed to go a long way in my career by having a supportive partner and not having children. I could do early morning installs because I didn’t need to look after a child. All I’m asking is that people are treated equally, that both parties bring up children, that people don’t have to live with violence, that everyone has equal chance to build a career and set themselves up financially. It isn’t working, at the moment, but it is slowly changing. When my mother got married, in 1954, she had to give up her job in the public service. Nobody would try that shit now. Who knows where we will be in another 50 years.

                      • SlavOz on 05/03/2020 - 19:01
                        -2

                        @try2bhelpful:

                        Women do not commit the majority of domestic violence crimes. Even the most hardened “men’s” groups don’t claim that.

                        You don't need to be a hardened men's group to look up statistics. Depending on how you look at the data (which is often skewed as men are less willing to report domestic violence), there are instances where women are the more common perpetrators.

                        https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2018/09/women-can-violent-m…

                        You still haven’t addressed the fact that women are killed by either their partner,

                        This isn't the oppression Olympics. I didn't come here to downplay the issues women are having, merely to provide some insight into an often intentionally blurred debate.

                        Children are created by the joining of an egg and a sperm. Both parties should contribute to bringing up the child.

                        Funny you say this, yet in just a few sentences later you go on to advocate for abortion, which most women fervently claim should be 100% their decision and their's alone. You don't get to pick and choose when a man gets involved. Women have steadfastly kicked men out of the abortion decision so it's laughable that you would here claim that "men need to be involved in this child's life moar!"

                        Besides, I think you're terribly misinformed of the role working fathers play in a child's upbringing. You can't raise a child without money, and most men are happy to go out and earn the majority of it to make sure the child has everything they need. They are definitely contributing.

                        Society norms are that women are expected to be the primary care giver and that their careers are the ones to suffer

                        Well, so what do you want to do about it? Should we make it a thought crime and punish anyone who suggests women are made for the kitchen? Get real.

                        And no it's not societal norms that have created this family model. The notion of males going out to earn food while the females nurture children is well documented in the animal kingdom as well. It's simple biology. Women were given breasts as nature decided they should be the one's spending more time with an offspring. That being said, you and any other women are free to go against this. There are no laws standing in your way.

                        Yes men are the majority victims of male violence, so it absolutely floors me why men don’t do more to try to halt the violence their fellow males perpetrate.

                        Who says they don't? The majority of policeman and soldiers, ie people who risk their life to uphold justice and protecting against violent behavior, are men. The majority of politicians who have continuously made new laws to protect all people (including men) are also men. Men are more likely than women to stand up against injustice or mistreatment, whether it's at home, in the workplace, or on a socio-political level. There's also a large growing number of men's groups forming to offer each other support, often met with fierce criticism from feminists.

                        You think they would be at the barricades trying to reduce toxic masculinity and strive for a culture where violence is abhorred?

                        Why would they? Women have demanded masculinity from men for thousands of years. They continuously promote and reward overt masculinity. Eg - women have always found muscly men attractive - that's a blatant endorsement of a person who's cosmetic features suggest that he's able to hurt other people more easily. Then there's the traditional demand that men have to be the one's to approach a woman and ask her out. Women have never bothered changing this because they want men to show that they are committed and confident - male characteristics.

                        Actually it is women who are, more and more, driving the innovative technology for managing periods.

                        That's ignoring my original statement. The original pioneers and developers of all the products women needed to become independent were men. You would still be living with immense hormonal pain and reliance if it wasn't for men. Perhaps tampons and the pill are showing their age today but they're still historically invaluable commodities for women.

                        that everyone has equal chance to build a career and set themselves up financially.

                        Sorry, but the data just doesn't agree with you on that. Women retire earlier than men do in virtually every country in the world. This has nothing to do with having to raise children or laws forcing them to stop working. They're making this decision on their own. Women are also choosing to work less hours on average per week in Australia, the US, the UK, and countless other countries. There's nothing wrong the laws - women simply don't chase career success as closely as men do. This is a well documented biological and psychological trait of femininity.

                        Perhaps if the stats were reversed and it was men retiring early while women were dominating most fields, you'd have a case to make. But it's not. The playing field is equal. Women are just not willing to play for as long as men are.

            • johnwinkle on 02/03/2020 - 09:56
              +1

              @SlavOz: classic incel

              • SlavOz on 02/03/2020 - 19:34
                -4

                @johnwinkle: Now, take note of the terrible double standard here. When a woman criticises men she's labelled as bold, brave, and independent. When a man criticises women he's labelled as an incel.

                And I'm not sure what's 'incel' about suggesting women should start assuming the best in people and not making themselves out as victims. If that's the case then I guess every career coach or psychologist is an incel as well

            • Ghost47 on 02/03/2020 - 12:41
              +1

              @SlavOz: This coming from you, lmao.

          • t_c on 01/03/2020 - 18:33
            +1

            @Sarah11:

            I even once got asked at an IT talk if I there to drop off my boyfriend at the event (I was a solo attendee).

            #savage

          • thettam on 01/03/2020 - 20:07
            +7

            @Sarah11: Just FYI there's quite a lot of demand for front end positions (not sure where you're located but I know of a few in Perth atleast) especially if you're good at making things "pretty" and are also capable writing in Javascript and related frameworks (React, Angular etc and subsequent tooling e.g Webpack, Babel, Typescript etc).

            Too many cs grads these days have this thinking that they can just get a job at any tech company and completely skip learning basic HTML, CSS and Javascript and then think they are employable because they have said cs degree, but imo if you lack a good understanding of those 3 languages then you lack major desirable skills to work in the web development space (as any language you write in will ultimately output those 3 to the end user, which at the end of the day are the reason you are getting paid as a web developer). Though if you have no intention of working in web development, then this may not apply to you (which might suggest why you are struggling to find a job with your degree as most jobs currently are in the web space).

            Even if you think you can write a web app in C# (.NET Core, Razor/MVC), or Python (Django) etc at some point you will need to know Javascript, HTML and CSS to create desired behaviour and user experiences (think date picker widgets, more advanced select dropdowns, complex forms + client side form validation). From what i've seen first hand, you might have a cs degree but who cares if you can't write the correct markup to submit a form?

            Just my 2c working as a software engineer with a degree in graphic design who loves to make things look pretty.

            Further suggestions:
            - Start contributing to Github projects and/or putting your code up there. A quick google search for your username and github shows me no activity if this is your profile. (https://github.com/sarah11). If i was hiring, i'd definitely want to see things you've coded and/or contributed too.
            - If you have a personal portfolio website, you should definitely put your link in for feedback

            • Sarah11 on 01/03/2020 - 20:13

              @thettam:

              especially if you're good at making things "pretty" and are also capable writing in Javascript and related frameworks

              Sorry I think I explained myself poorly. Everyone says I should go into frontend because I am a girl and "girls like pretty things". In reality, I hate pretty things. No interest in art or design. Couldn't imagine anything worse.

              I'm currently doing the web development course by colt steel on uedmy. I've just bought the advanced version as well and am working my way through. I think I should learn it anyway.

        • D C on 01/03/2020 - 15:10
          +12

          Maybe start by changing your attitude first.

          Lol. SlavOz giving 'attitude' advice.

      • mrvaluepack on 01/03/2020 - 08:20
        -5

        Lol, 20+ and you are whinging? When I was a grad, I submitted around 500 applications.

        • No ONE on 01/03/2020 - 11:59
          -5

          around 500 applications

          Quantity over quality. You application must have so shitty.

          • websterp on 01/03/2020 - 12:41

            @No ONE: Wonder what the 'quality' of your own applications would be like when you can't even have a proper sentence put together…must have so shitty???

            • No ONE on 01/03/2020 - 13:10
              -1

              @websterp: I ain't give a shit about my grammar outside my profession. I'll let the auto correct take care of it.

          • mrvaluepack on 01/03/2020 - 13:56
            +2

            @No ONE: Nope, quantity over quality always wins. you have to multiply the effort and time spent custom tailoring each CV vs the probability of getting that salary and calculate whether its worth it.

            Now have a good job with good money, dont be jelly.

            • serpserpserp on 02/03/2020 - 13:25

              @mrvaluepack:

              Nope, quantity over quality always wins.

              It really doesn't.

              I reckon you probably did about 80% of your applications of poor quality. Then as you went along, you improved your applications to the point where it was quality, probably the last 5% of applications your submitted were quality submissions and that is where you got your job.

              The process can be a journey, but I firmly believe 50 good quality applications will get you more interviews than 500 cut and paste on a template one.

              Although depends on the job you are seeking I suppose.

      • Jamesrulez1 on 01/03/2020 - 09:25
        +6

        Where did you apply for. When I interned at companies with gender quotas (think Big 4), if I'm being brutally honest, the girls that were chosen were not the brightest crayons in the pack. I spoke with a few partners who confirmed the gender quotas.

        For example, in one team there were 2 interns. 1 male, 1 female both Asian of same ethnicity.

        Male: Head of university consulting society, D/HD WAM, multiple previous internships, exceptional resume (top tier consulting firm level)
        Female: Head of society (think TSA,VSA,HKSA etc), 3 fails at uni (50-60 WAM), resume looked like it was written by a 5 year old (pictures, no numbers, bunch of repetitive words), no experience

        Even the woman thought she got extremely lucky and that if more girls applied or there wasn't a gender quota she probably wouldn't have received an interview.

        • Sarah11 on 01/03/2020 - 09:35
          +6

          So there are incompetent women as well as men in the field. Let's not assume that all are diversity hires and that all are naturally terrible.

        • try2bhelpful on 01/03/2020 - 11:06
          +2

          You are giving us one example. If you want to start that game I can find you a lot more stories the other way around. BTW, I think the expression is the “sharpest crayon”. Often the person hired is not, necessarily, the brightest. I’ve worked with “brilliant” people who were arrogant pricks and didn’t play well with others. It was there way or they sulk. Most projects are team based and you need to make sure everyone can work together. It helps if people aren’t getting their metaphorical “dicks” out to measure them. (This applies for both males and females). The problem is society has engendered in women that they should be “lucky” if they are pickedI’ve spent a life of people saying “women do this, or do that”. When I point out that’s BS because I don’t do that I get “well you’re different”. The only difference is
          I have an expression which is “ovaries out”. You take whatever luck life gives you and run with it to prove they got it right.

          It is difficult being a minority. For most meetings I was in the minority, for a fair amount I was the only female. I’m Bolshie so I didn’t have an issue with it, but if I’d been shy I would’ve given up.

          • jwh on 01/03/2020 - 14:48

            @try2bhelpful: No, it is actually the ‘sharpest tool in the shed’ and ‘brightest crayon in the box’ or close variations of those (why would you need a sharp crayon?) But anyway… diverting a bit from the point. The job market is just tougher than what it used to be. Oversupply of graduates in some fields, increasing population, weaker economy. There aren’t enough jobs for everyone unfortunately, so you have to work harder to get your foot in the door.

            • try2bhelpful on 01/03/2020 - 16:20

              @jwh: The examples I’ve seen is the sharpest crayon; why would you need a bright crayon it is like saying a bright pencil? I, completely, agree with the fact it is harder, which is what I said in another post.

              • jwh on 01/03/2020 - 16:50

                @try2bhelpful: Well practically you would need a sharp pencil, but you don’t usually sharpen crayons. A child will usually go for a bright crayon, as that’s what they’re attracted to, hence the idiom. Maybe we’ll just have different opinions on this 🙂

                • try2bhelpful on 01/03/2020 - 17:42
                  -1

                  @jwh: Yes, we do seem to have strayed down a side path. Personally, I would’ve used “not the sharpest tool in the shed”. Kids don’t, necessarily, go for the brightest crayons: they go for what seems the most appropriate colour. However, a wood worker would rarely prefer a dull tool; unless he is using a screw driver to lever open a paint tin :)

            • Fobsessive on 01/03/2020 - 17:33

              @jwh: Yeah, what Smash Mouth said in All Star

            • try2bhelpful on 03/03/2020 - 17:21

              @jwh: Funnily enough there are even tools to sharpen your crayons. Maybe you want to stay inside the line rather than spread the colour everywhere.

              https://www.amazon.com/Tin-Box-Company-181007-12-Sharpener/d…

      • Boioioioi on 01/03/2020 - 11:14

        Keep trying. I'm in a similar field. Had to apply to 40+ jobs before getting a single response. However I got the job from that one response :)

      • dufflover on 01/03/2020 - 11:38
        +2

        This works in your favour in the current PC workplace to fill their quotas.

        Mind you, I still think that many people are suspicious of female programmers because they assume we are probably not very good.

        I've had to help with recruiting in some teams I've worked in before (large IT company for techy positions) and I can definitely tell you as a female you are at advantage at least in terms of that important first cut off step just by being a female. I don't do the first short listing before it reaches our team interview stage, but I have seen cover pages passed onto me explicitly mentioning quotas.

        If it was a gender issue my honest opinion is people still would rather someone, if all else equal (skill and pay), who cannot get pregnant and statistically less likely to take larger blocks of time off. Not saying it's right and obviously they can't ever admit it, but that's just my guess. For context my position was as the "skills assessor" only. Everything else was up to the actual management.

        Also, unless you have special niche skill and targeting a specific industry/company, a lot of big companies are always trying to outsource their software programming work overseas - obviously cos it's cheaper. My friends and relos have been actively impacted by this over the years.

    • HighAndDry on 01/03/2020 - 02:10
      +8

      This might actually be why she's having trouble:

      I do have a males name though

      • Sarah11 on 01/03/2020 - 02:16
        -4

        I think I am good enough to make it in on my own merit. Obviously I need to do better to showcase all of skills in my cv.

        • HighAndDry on 01/03/2020 - 02:24
          +21

          I have friends doing CS degrees who can't get placements while every single girl in their cohort have no problems. The Affirmative Action programs in the industry are no joke.

          As much as I disagree with them - there's no reason you shouldn't leverage them yourself. Emphasise that you're a girl and see how you go.

          • Sarah11 on 01/03/2020 - 02:32
            -2

            @HighAndDry: I feel that being a diversity hire would cheapen my accomplishments, when I have a 6.6 gpa, a huge range of extra-curricular activities, academic scholarship. I want to be respected for the skills and knowledge I have developed. When you hire someone only to tick a box you undermine the value they bring and leave others to question whether they are really up to the job they have been asked to do.

            • HighAndDry on 01/03/2020 - 03:39
              +26

              @Sarah11: Sure, but if you don't, another girl will. Plus, a job's a job.

              • Sarah11 on 01/03/2020 - 03:54
                -5

                @HighAndDry: Maybe that girl will get hired based being a great engineer. Not every female is an incompetent charity case. Affirmative action implies that women are not capable of succeeding on their own merit.

                • [Deactivated] on 01/03/2020 - 07:54
                  +13

                  @Sarah11:

                  Maybe that girl will get hired based being a great engineer. Not every female is an incompetent charity case.

                  Noone is saying that but you.

                  Affirmative action is a disgrace. Getting a job and then proving your worth is not.

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