No Seat Belt Fine for International Visitors

ajjkh225 on 27/01/2020 - 23:14
Last edited 27/01/2020 - 23:20

today on the 27th Jan (Double Demerit) received a fine for having 3 passengers without a seat belt on. which is $1106 and 12 demerit points.

in addition, the 3 passengers that didn't have the seatbelt on was international visitors and they also received a $280 fine each. total of $840 between the 3. so eventually I have to pay a fine of $1946 and 12 demerit points?

is this the right thing? why do the passengers have to pay the fine? I thought all the responsibility was all on the driver?

please let me know if this is right? I will appeal this infringement

Automotive

Comments

          • jjjaar on 27/01/2020 - 23:36
            +14

            @ajjkh225: Just because you weren’t speeding, it doesn’t mean someone behind you wasn’t, and couldn’t have rear ended you with a lot of force. Your whole family would have gone flying, and who knows if they would have survived.

            You and your family will now always remember to put your seatbelts on. They aren’t fancy accessories there to look good.

          • brad1-8tsi on 28/01/2020 - 19:52

            @ajjkh225: What's speeding got to do with it?

            The rules don't say "If you drive under the speed limit then no seat belts are required.

          • cheapo123 on 29/01/2020 - 14:03

            @ajjkh225: The driver cant always watch the passenger so the passenger must also have a deterrent. This is it. Especially in a minivan etc.

          • RC13 on 29/01/2020 - 14:49
            +1

            @ajjkh225: Out of interest, when you were getting pulled over/signalled to stop, why didn't anyone put their seatbelts on?

          • ankor on 29/01/2020 - 21:59
            +4

            @ajjkh225: For each individual severely injured in a motor vehicle accident, the public shoulders the burden of their stupidity. Look at the cost of a doctor's visit for an international visitor. It's about $45-80 for a general consult, depending on where you go.

            Then think on how much an ambulance and hospital visit will cost to treat each individual.
            What if there's a broken arm? How about a severed arm? What about a fractured spine? What about bruising, lacerations, skin grafts (from skidding along the road after flying out of a car)

            Have you considered the cost of providing vicarious trauma therapy to the first responders (e.g. police, ambulance officers) who attended the scene and witnessed any number of mangled bodies. It is ultimately the State who shoulders the burden of that counselling and any other medical expenses that those people might need.

            We're not talking just a $5.00 claim, we're talking the potential expenses of possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars, distributed across many different stakeholders, just in the event that an international driver and his passengers did not wear seat belts and the absolute worst thing happens.

            If there are rules and laws of a country when entering that country, you have to follow them. The high fine cost and the fact that it's given out to you and your passengers really just shows how serious our parliament takes basic safety issues like this. High fines, alongside driver education are meant to discourage behaviour like this.

          • futureminime on 31/01/2020 - 10:23
            +1

            @ajjkh225: I think if feels excessive because of the double demerit period, and because you're wearing the whole fine.

            Think about it in reverse, where everyone lives locally and it wasn't double demerits. You're driving and I'm next to you in the passenger seat and take off my seat belt. Whats the incentive for me to follow the law (Apart from safety) You need the people who are causing the issue to feel the pain.

            There are 2 separate issues -

            1. You operating the vehicle when its not safe. This isn't just about your car, if someone else hits you and kills a family member because they didn't have a seat belt on, how do you think they would feel?

            2. The same as above, a seat belt isn't just about doing the right thing for yourself and for your driver, but for the rest of the community. EMS workers don't deserve to have to see horrible injuries at car crash sites.

        • xoom on 27/01/2020 - 23:36
          +13

          Those racists so and so. How dare they try to keep my extended family safer on the roads. Those heathens.

          /s

            • ProlapsedHeinous on 28/01/2020 - 00:50
              +11

              @ajjkh225: while we're speaking in hypotheticals, I don't think @zoom would be silly enough to allow himself to be put in that easily preventable situation in the first place.

              • geoffs87 on 28/01/2020 - 13:10

                @ProlapsedHeinous: Honestly, do you seriously not drive off before you check every individual in your car is wearing their seat belt? Most cars today beep at you, but not everyone has a new car.

            • GrueHunter on 28/01/2020 - 08:29

              @ajjkh225: No, because I'm stupid enough to let people ride in my car without a seatbelt.

            • ankor on 29/01/2020 - 13:50

              @ajjkh225: Something entirely avoidable, if the driver educated his passengers about the NSW road rules.

              Ignorance is not an excuse mate. You think it's unfair, you're welcome to lobby out politicians to change the law.

            • ThadtheChad on 30/01/2020 - 09:24
              +1

              @ajjkh225: Yes pretty much.

              But also, I have relos from overseas who have a similar cavalier approach to seatbelts. I've given my passengers an ultimatum to wear their seatbelts else I'm not pulling out of the driveway.

              This is what being a responsible adult is all about. If they are not amenable to following the rules IN MY CAR, IN MY COUNTRY, they can take a fking uber.

  • Mechz on 27/01/2020 - 23:30
    -3

    Unless it's in your name don't bother paying.

  • Okayy on 27/01/2020 - 23:46
    -3

    instead of driver only passenger should be fined! whereas for overseas visitors it should be driver or host.

  • Milk tea on 27/01/2020 - 23:48
    +1

    They should pay for their fines and not just leave it or expect for you to pay the fines as well. Ignorance isn't an excuse for international visitors to not wear seatbelts and not get fined since it is common sense that when entering a vehicle you should wear a seatbelt especially being in a foreign country.

  • jonathonsunshine on 27/01/2020 - 23:54
    +5

    @op, were your visitors American? They are the worst from my limited experience. We had a housemate from California, said we were all nerds when we started putting seatbelts on in the car.

    • macrocephalic on 28/01/2020 - 12:14
      +1

      This doesn't surprise me. Many states in the US don't force motorcyclists to wear helmets. Considering the risk and consequences of head injury while riding a motorcycle, this seems insane to me (and I'm a full time motorcyclist).

  • MinifiguresAU on 27/01/2020 - 23:56
    +15

    please let me know if this is right? I will appeal this infringement

    Under what grounds exactly do you intend to appeal a clear cut fine?

    I've had multiple international business guests in my car, from various countries and as uncomfortable as it may be, I always advise them of the law and that I won't move until they buckle up, not once has anyone argued.

  • parsimonious one on 28/01/2020 - 00:16
    +2

    On one hand it’s good to see the police actually enforcing the rules evenly…. better than those border force shows that seem to happily let people off despite blatantly signing false declarations about bringing in various food products from overseas

  • spackbace on 28/01/2020 - 00:30
    +16

    Must be an older car. Newer cars nag when the seatbelt isn't done up. Can be handy as a driver to ensure your passengers are belted (I've had to ferry customers around and when that noise goes off they know that I know they're not belted in!)

  • Simoneee on 28/01/2020 - 00:32
    +2

    Why do passengers have to pay the fine? To prevent them from not wearing a seatbelt and understand that seatbelts are used to reduce the chance of death if an accident were to occur. Therefore, they will be constantly reminded to put a seatbelt on or face expensive fines.

  • [Deactivated] on 28/01/2020 - 00:57

    Maybe time to invest in a car with rear seat belt alerts. My in laws sometimes forget to do it even though I’ve told them the laws here. Car doesn’t stop beeping until they buckle up.

    • Davo1111 on 28/01/2020 - 03:10
      +2

      "has everybody got their seatbelt on?" <then look left>

  • p1 ama on 28/01/2020 - 01:20
    +5

    why do the passengers have to pay the fine? I thought all the responsibility was all on the driver?

    If anything, it should be the passengers who hold the responsibility, not the driver. What's a driver supposed to do? Check every 3 minutes to make sure nobody has taken off their seatbelt? That seems ridiculous to me.

    • abb on 28/01/2020 - 10:00
      +3

      Checking once before setting off is likely to be sufficient. You're reasonably likely to hear something if someone unclips (in most reasonably new cars, you will hear an alarm beeping too).

      But also, if you don't trust your passengers to keep their belt on, don't drive them around.

      • Davo1111 on 28/01/2020 - 11:51

        agreed. I have said before "we're not leaving until your belt is on". It has stayed on for the entire journey.

        If it came off, they can walk.

      • p1 ama on 28/01/2020 - 17:53

        But also, if you don't trust your passengers to keep their belt on, don't drive them around.

        Yes, but that's a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist.

        I'm not saying that there aren't ways to ensure passengers wear their seatbelts. What I'm saying is that it's not the driver's job to make sure that passengers are wearing seatbelts. Sure, for children, I can understand, but adults can make their own decisions - if they want to put themselves in danger and at risk of getting a fine, then that's on them.

        Making someone personally and legally responsible for someone else's decisions and actions is always problematic.

        • Beanvee on 28/01/2020 - 20:13
          +1

          The problem is they aren't only putting themselves in danger. Unbuckled passengers have killed buckled passengers by bashing into them during a crash. The driver is potentially putting themselves and other passengers at risk by allowing unbuckled passengers, hence why they cop some of the blame.

        • HighAndDry on 29/01/2020 - 08:30
          +1

          The driver is an integral part of "being in a moving car without seat belts". Think of the driver as being an accessory to the crime if you want.

  • thatonethere on 28/01/2020 - 05:28
    -5

    The police may eventually sell the debts for not paying their individual fines to a collection agency in their country. Could take a year but the collectors like buying that debt as it is backed by a police agency….

  • onetwothreefour on 28/01/2020 - 06:23
    +10

    I have kids so I am used to asking if everyone has their seatbelts on before I pull away. I check twice whenever we have family from overseas visiting, I've had to remind my mother in law a lot of times bev she keeps forgetting but always puts it on straight away when I tell her to. It's not hard OP, you all deserve the fine.

  • trev likes bargains on 28/01/2020 - 06:35
    +7

    OP, it appears that you were well aware that they were not wearing seat belts. Why are you complaining now?

    I took some people on a day trip on Australia day. They asked me if they must have the seat belts on. Even at the back?

    I made sure that they were aware that the car won't be driven even one inch if they didn't put their seat belts on.

    No further issues.

    • Archer12 on 28/01/2020 - 06:39
      +1

      Shouldn't you be more worried about the demerits?

      Edit: this is in response to OP,not trev
      Can't move my comment.

  • try2bhelpful on 28/01/2020 - 07:28
    +3

    My grandmother refused to wear her seat belt. The cops pulled us over at a check post, one day, and told her off for not wearing it but we didn’t cop a fine for it. Sounds like they are having a crack down. The people in your car were adults and you were the adult in charge. It does seem to be double dipping, and a tad harsh, but that is how it is. Thanks for posting maybe it will help someone else to remember to tell people to put them on.

  • Geryatric on 28/01/2020 - 07:32
    +5

    Please let me know if this is right

    Yes it is correct, both driver and passengers (over 16) will be fined if not wearing seat-belts.

    I will appeal this infringement

    On what grounds? It’s the law.

    • juki on 29/01/2020 - 23:53

      it seems to be on the grounds "the fine is too much", such bad attitude, its the law and would be the same for everyone, not just him

  • JungliChilli on 28/01/2020 - 08:04
    +2

    Either tell them to pay it or if you absolutely need to pay it for them pay it and move on.
    /closethread

    • cheesecactus on 28/01/2020 - 11:39
      +1

      Differs per state and the officers discretion.

      For example in WA both driver and passengers get fined. But when I got pulled over once for an RBT they only fined the passenger and let me off (driver). Up to the officer if he/she wants to. Totally within their power to fine both

  • Seraphin7 on 28/01/2020 - 08:44
    +6

    I will appeal this infringement

    What precisely are you appealing?

  • HelpMeiCantSee on 28/01/2020 - 08:52
    +2

    Maybe, just maybe if you were responsible and made sure everyone wore a seatbelt, you wouldn’t be facing fines?

    International or not, it’s a pretty shitty thing to complain about when it’s very clear it’s a massive issue over here. Perhaps you could pay their fines for them if you feel it’s unjust?

  • DarkOz on 28/01/2020 - 08:53
    +3

    Couple of thousand dollars to save 4 lives, worth it.

  • askme69 on 28/01/2020 - 09:19

    This was a common occurrence with CHINESE and minivans. The lot of them would not have seat belts on accept the driver.

  • Jackkkkkk on 28/01/2020 - 09:37

    According to the RMS Site, there isn't any fine for individuals on top of your normal fine. I would probably contest the individual fines as it doesn't show anything on the page.

    You screwed up though. Good luck

    • robberbutton on 28/01/2020 - 11:29
      +4

      It's not listed there as there are no demerit points associated. Rule 265 Road Rules 2014. Subrule 1 applies to the passenger, subrule 3 applies to the driver.

      • Jackkkkkk on 28/01/2020 - 11:33

        I couldn't find anything relating to individual fines though?

        • cheapo123 on 28/01/2020 - 12:05
          +1

          it does say the passenger in the subrule as well as the penalty associated with it. So the penalty goes to the passenger. If it says the driver then it would go to the driver.

          The law also clearly states the driver will also be penalised if they dont ensure that the passenger is wearing a seatbealt. So there would be two fines handed out if the passenger doesnt wear a seatbelt.

  • reshre8 on 28/01/2020 - 09:49
    +1

    As much as I think that it is unfair for the driver to take responsibility for adult passengers not wearing their seatbelts, rules are rules. If you are intending to appeal it, try and explain the situation. The likelihood of a fine getting overturned in the appeal process is very slim, especially the ones where safety is involved. There is no point going to court unless you can recall some form of irregularity in the process.

    • HighAndDry on 28/01/2020 - 12:24
      +2

      It's not really unfair - while you might not be able to physically force sometime to put on a seatbelt, you can certainly refuse to drive.

      Not wearing a seatbelt isn't just dangerous for the occupants, it's also a road safety issue because unrestrained passengers can distract the driver even further if there's an issue, possibly making a bad situation even worse.

  • Taro Milk Tea on 28/01/2020 - 09:53

    check here

  • DingoBilly on 28/01/2020 - 09:57

    Eh, I'd suck it up in this case. You did a stupid thing and I hope your passengers got fined so they learn their lesson as well. It's such a simple and effective thing to do that will save lives.

  • pegaxs on 28/01/2020 - 10:56
    +5

    Lol. I love these posts.

    I will appeal this infringement

    Keep us updated with how that goes for you. :D

    Consider yourself and your family lucky it wasn’t a bunch of MFB/SES guys cutting your mangled family out of the nearby bushland/front yards/car interior.

    I bet you don’t drive anywhere next time till you have checked that everyone has their belts on. :D

    • highdealer on 29/01/2020 - 18:43

      OP hit a big palm tree when reversing, I doubt they ever turn their head when driving.

      I hope they appeal and loses their license cause we would be all safer for it.

  • CalmLemons on 28/01/2020 - 11:03

    Just to make clear you are just upset about the passengers getting a fine but not getting 12 demerit points under your name.

    I would be more upset at the demerit points - like last time i checked thats all your demerit points if you're in vic and you've lost your licence?

    • kerfuffle on 28/01/2020 - 11:05

      OP appears to be NSW, where we can accumulate up to 13.

      Of course, that's if the OP had none to start with …

      • pegaxs on 28/01/2020 - 12:08

        Can confirm. I checked this out not to long ago and it seems you can accumulate 12 in NSW and not lose your license. 1 more point in the next 3 years for OP and it’s gone. A simple police issued parking fine or 5km over the limit is an instant loss of license for OP.

  • mrvaluepack on 28/01/2020 - 11:18

    Just appeal your fine saying you told them multiple times to put on the belts and they didnt follow your instructions or could have taken them off midway throughout the journey without your knowledge.

    Fines for your passengers however, no way to appeal.

    • serideth on 28/01/2020 - 13:20

      You told them multiple times to put on the belts and they didnt follow your instructions

      No way does that fly. If that's the case you stop the car and get them an uber or taxi. Your first statement basically admits the driver knew his passengers weren't wearing their seat belts and as for the second, ignorance is not a defense.

      • mrvaluepack on 28/01/2020 - 14:27

        Your comments do not make sense. How can the driver admit when the passengers remove the seat belts?

        • serideth on 28/01/2020 - 14:38
          +1

          You said "Just appeal your fine saying you told them multiple times to put on the belts and they didnt follow your instructions". That means you are admitting that you continued to drive knowing that your passengers ignored your instructions and did not use their seat belts.

          As for my second point, you said "(they) could have taken them off midway throughout the journey without your knowledge". Essentially you are trying to claim ignorance, that you did not know that your passengers were not wearing seat belts. I am simply letting you know that ignorance is not a legal defense, as the driver it is your responsibility to be aware of whether your passengers are wearing seat belts or not.

          Hope that's a bit easier to understand.

  • Bid Sniper on 28/01/2020 - 11:25
    +2

    Fine is one thing, but 12 demerit points, you probably cannot drive for 6 months and possibly will be paying much high insurance premiums from now on, so will cost you even more money.

    Appeal wont work, doesn't matter citizen status of passengers, they broke the law in your car.

    win stupid prizes….

  • Baysew on 28/01/2020 - 11:28
    +5

    Why weren't the passengers wearing seat belts?

  • trapper on 28/01/2020 - 11:39

    Man… you make your bed, you lie in it.

  • Porker on 28/01/2020 - 11:52

    OP - you are aware there was a law for wearing seatbelts or is the fine the first you knew of it?

  • 12Sydney34 on 28/01/2020 - 12:25
    +7

    Welcome to Australia…. thank you for helping our economy 😂

  • BigBirdy on 28/01/2020 - 12:46

    If you didn’t advise your passengers of the legal requirement to wear seatbelts, it’s your fault so you should pay their fines. If you didn’t know they are required to wear seatbelts, you’re the driver with the legal responsibility to know the road laws, so you should pay their fines. If you informed them they are required to wear seatbelts, but they secretly undid them, they should pay.

  • coolroy on 28/01/2020 - 13:46
    +1

    Sounds like the Op is a bit of an idiot for failing to understand the rules when driving in Australia.

    Does this person even hold a full Australian drivers Licence or is he driving on an International one?

    If he cant be bothered to know the driving rules here maybe for the safety of all other families on the road in NSW he should hand in his licence…
    He sounds like an accident just waiting too happen.

    • eyeJK on 28/01/2020 - 14:30
      +2

      I agree, OP shouldn't be on the road if they are unaware or can't much such simple tasks.

      Regarding your last statement, it might interest you to know OP has even posted about an accident here on ozbargain.
      They managed to hit a neighbour's tree when reversing from their driveway.
      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/385698

      OP please read the rules carefully and do an Australian driving test if you haven't, maybe get a refresher from an instructor.

      Also, what's up with people saying don't pay? Either tell the passengers to pay it or pay it for them if you want.

  • OzHunterNSW on 28/01/2020 - 13:46

    WELL YOU ARE THE DRIVER AND IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE EVERYONE'S SAFETY

  • knr21 on 28/01/2020 - 13:47

    You could always see if they will go lenient on them, write a letter explaining that you had visitors from other country and that they didn't understand the rules, say you are happy to pay your fine and take the hit with demerit points as it was your responsibility to explain the rules (admit for being in the wrong will go along way and pay your fine may also help) but ask if they could please cancel the passengers fines. You may find that they might especially if it is your first infringement. No harm in asking

  • Bargain Slut on 28/01/2020 - 14:22

    Unlucky but not unfair.

    Just pay the fine unless you want to waste time and money.

  • peterw1 on 28/01/2020 - 15:25
    +2

    experience is a bad teacher. He gives the test first and the lesson afterwards.
    I wonder if you had a crash and they needed a hospital admission because they weren't wearing seatbelts would you be posting about the $5000+/day cost in ICU and the $1000+ cost for the ambulance.

  • cycleri3 on 28/01/2020 - 16:53
    +1

    You got off easy. If there was an accident and if anyone lost their lives, you probably would be doing jail time for not making them wear seat belts. Pay fine and take the lesson for next time. I am guessing you lost your license too with the 12 demerits?

  • Heracles on 28/01/2020 - 19:33
    +1

    All parties should pay the fine and move on. You all broke the law, pretty simple really.

    Years ago I had some visitors over from the UK and one of the lads wouldn't put his seat belt on after being asked to do so. I simply said mate, put your belt on or we aren't going anywhere. Suffice to say he put his belt on ;-)

  • doctordv8 on 28/01/2020 - 20:04

    Seriously? You should of asked the nice Traffic police person that potentially saved 3 lives to explain the Law, or if not then, go to the local Police Station and ask them. If in any doubt, on Legal questions, go to the Authorities in the first instance. Besides, as shown in other posts it is online if you bother to search for more than a minute.

    You have a Licence, you should know the Rules, and if all else fails, back to Rule # 1. Ignorance is no excuse of the Law.
    Many Laws, Traffic and more, are updated and or changed and even deleted from our society every year, do yourself a favour and do what I do, do a search and check every year, like changing your smoke Alarm battery.

    Imagine, would you still come here complaining if the seat-belts saved lives in an accident, and your passengers suffered only horrendous bruising but lived?

    Methinks you should resit the Theory and for good measure the practical exam, for the sake of us all.

    Then get every visitor that has not paid their fines that replied here….you are disgusting and not Australian worthy, nor are your friends and or hosts.

  • sabracad on 28/01/2020 - 20:12
    +1

    If you want them to get their money's worth from the state, take the visitors on a hiking trip with inadequate equipment, water, food and sense of direction. They'll get a free helicopter ride home.

    This is something I'd like to see fines applied to.

  • kaitoivan on 28/01/2020 - 20:16

    Why worry about the passengers fine? Did you tell them to put on seatbelts? If I were you I'd have asked the in-laws to pay the total fines, not just for themselves.

    But if you're neglected or too chicken to remind them about the seatbelts then just pay all up yourself.

  • pipe on 29/01/2020 - 01:02
    -4

    Shame on those saying the fine is fair. It is this sort of attitude that lets Australians being gouged by monopoly rent seekers. That is why we have the highest traffic fines and toll roads in the world.

    Where is the data that shows that extortionate fines result in safer roads compared to a $50 fine? Why stop at $2,000? How about half a year's salary because it is the law and he deserves it for putting lives at risk.

    • RocketSwitch on 29/01/2020 - 10:29
      -1

      It's the tall poppy syndrome in Australia. Everyone loves people getting screwed. They're like IT'S THE LAW, IT'S FOR SAFETY, which is true. But what makes speeding offences ethical? Cops doing 100 chasing someone doing 80 in a 60 zone to catch up with them? End of the day, it's all revenue raising, as confirmed by former cops regarding their KPIs in news interviews.

      You can be a model citizen, who doesn't break into peoples' homes, or king hit someone etc. etc. But you make one lapse in judgement and they screw you hard like OP.

      Sorry OP, just the way the world is and people don't care about the impact this will have on you. All I can say is, work out the best way forward, because no one cares, everyone just smirks in the background, thinking SUFFER.

      And we're trying to take mental illness here seriously, but people would love to drop a tonne of bricks on anyone at any given point.

      Good luck.

      • xoom on 29/01/2020 - 13:20
        +2

        people don't care about the impact this will have on you.

        And what about the impact of being in a car crash while not wearing a seat belt?

        Instead of just having whiplash and bruised chest one ends up with a cracked skull because their head hit the windscreen.

        Would you rather its all license point system wherein you lose you license permanently if you get enough demerits? Would that be a fairer system? Would that stop the "oh its only revenue raising?"

        • RocketSwitch on 29/01/2020 - 23:00

          It didn't, did it?

          No one is denying the safety of it, but why not an initial first warning?

          My system would require all first time offences to be given a warning.

          • xoom on 29/01/2020 - 23:28
            +1

            @RocketSwitch:

            It didn't, did it?

            As peterw1 said above.

            https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/8284971/redir

            experience is a bad teacher. He gives the test first and the lesson afterwards.

            Do people have to wait till something bad happen to them before they buckle up or shouldn't they just learn from those before them who came out second best thinking its ok not to buckle up.

            • RocketSwitch on 30/01/2020 - 10:28

              @xoom: You have been alive long enough to know that you do have to experience something to act.

              Message won't sink in.

              But a warning would strike fear I think.

              • xoom on 30/01/2020 - 13:27

                @RocketSwitch:

                you do have to experience something to act.

                Feel free to touch a flaming hot grill to know its not a good idea to do. You have to experience it first right?

                But a warning would strike fear I think.

                Somehow i doubt that in all cases. There will always be the ones that will go. Oh nothing happened to me before so i will continue to stay unbuckled. Till they are in the icu pondering where it all went wrong. That is.

      • Ughhh on 29/01/2020 - 13:47
        +4

        But you make one lapse in judgement and they screw you hard like OP.

        Harder than watching your family flying out the window?

        Perhaps the government shouldn't interfere with natural selection.

        • pipe on 29/01/2020 - 13:56

          Most countries dont require backseat passengers to wear a seat belt and there is no epidemic of people flying out the window. If they want to put on a seat belt and not fly out the window, it is their choice.

          • xoom on 29/01/2020 - 14:43
            +4

            @pipe: If only there was a waiver that indemnifies the state for those who choose not to wear their seatbelt. Something along the lines of any injuries sustained travelling in a vehicle unrestrained then getting involved in a crash means the hospital bill will be out their own money.

            • pipe on 29/01/2020 - 15:16

              @xoom: So you are advocating that anyone who gets injured and they are at fault will need to pay their own bills?

              • xoom on 29/01/2020 - 18:09

                @pipe: Just talking about not wearing seat belts. Thats the crux of the discussion here.

        • RocketSwitch on 29/01/2020 - 22:59

          That's right, just send them broke, and possibly lose their licence.

          Perhaps the government could give a warning initially?

          But no, perhaps you know it all.

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