PayPal Scam - Chargeback $1450

summithunter on 18/01/2020 - 22:54
Last edited 01/02/2020 - 13:06

Hi All,

Seeking desperate help for a paypal chargeback/scam. ( Will try to be as brief as possible)

I had sold a brand new sealed phone on eBay in Sep 2019 which was paid by the buyer via Paypal. My ad on eBay clearly stated that there are no warranties or returns accepted. The buyer then contacted me within 10 days advising that mobile had battery issues when I provided him an Invoice to have it repaired or replaced directly from the manufacturer. I assumed the issue was sorted as I havent heard back from the buyer in Sep.

Buyer had then lodged a case with his financial institution 2 weeks ago advising the product I sold was defective and not as described.(Please note mobile was brand new and sealed). Paypal contacted me and I had provided all the required info as described above and today I received an email from Paypal with a note as per below

" We've been working with your buyer's credit card provider to dispute your charge back case. Unfortunately, the card provider has decided the chargeback in the buyer's favour "

I have been on the phone with them and they have not been of any help.. they advise that the decision has been made by buyers financial institution and the buyer had the right to dispute this within 180 days of purchase. Paypal is advising me to court or contact the buyer directly which i have tried but his phone number is no longer working.

My paypal account is now in negative since last 2 weeks and have already started receiving calls from collections .. who also threaten me saying my there will be a default lodged against my name if I dont add funds asap.

P.S Buyer hasnt contacted me/ returned my mobile which is deemed to be faulty, his account on eBay is no longer operative and paypal has declined to contact the customer on my behalf.

Looking for suggestions how i can further dispute this ?

UPDATE : Below is the hopeless response from PAYPAL post complaint .. Would never deal with them again !

Thank you for contacting PayPal. As you know, one of your buyers filed a chargeback against you with their credit card company. Unfortunately, the credit card company has decided this case in favor of your buyer, and we had to reverse the transaction from your PayPal account.

Generally, a credit card company will only require the buyer attempt to return merchandise or make the item available for pick-up. Should a buyer satisfy this requirement, the chargeback could be found in their favor. If the option is available, we still attempt to dispute the chargeback with the credit card company. Our Seller Protection Policy covers claims, chargebacks, or reversals that are a result of unauthorized purchases or items your buyer didn’t receive. In this case, your buyer claimed that the merchandise they received was different than originally described, and this type of claim is not covered under PayPal's Seller Protection Policy.

We’re sorry you experienced a problem with this transaction and encourage you to contact your buyer directly for resolution.

Note:

If a transaction is eligible for seller protection, it will be marked as eligible or partially eligible on the Transaction Details page. If it is marked as partially eligible, you are only protected for items a buyer didn’t receive.
To learn more about fees and how we investigate transactions, click Legal at the bottom of any PayPal page and then click PayPal User Agreement.

It is my pleasure to assist you. Thank you for choosing PayPal.

Sincerely,
Amanda
PayPal Chargeback Division
PayPal

Financial

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Comments

    • rambao9 on 18/01/2020 - 23:49
      +23

      Not sure if I'm reading the post incorrectly or if everyone below has trouble understanding but afaik… the buyer has ghosted him and he will not have any chance of getting it returned in the current situation.

      • summithunter on 19/01/2020 - 04:00
        +4

        Thats correct .. sorry if I was confusing !

    • summithunter on 19/01/2020 - 03:59
      +5

      Well to even do that , the buyer needs to contact me.. request the return or refund so i can claim the warranty from the manufacturer.

      As per my post, the buyer has not contacted me.. eBay account is not operative and his phone number which was provided earlier is no longer accepting incoming calls..

      He has got the money back and also has the phone !

      • Lucky13 on 20/01/2020 - 23:40

        Have you contacted the police? Would be interested in what they have to say. Is it considered theft of goods? They should've returned it :(

    • shadowangel on 19/01/2020 - 17:28

      Have you had a charge back ? Banks don't care about the merchant at all. They will happily refund plus you keep the item.

      The only time they care is when they have to pay. 3D secure or card present transactions. Then it's on the customer or bank.

      • whooah1979 on 19/01/2020 - 17:49
        -7

        The seller had ~12 weeks to provide the buyer with a solution before they decided to initiate a chargeback.

  • zuuutoootuuu on 18/01/2020 - 23:13
    +27

    block the IMEI?

    • summithunter on 19/01/2020 - 04:08
      +2

      How is this going to help me ? I have also been charged back and the buyer has the phone.. In any case i have lost the money and the phone …… Looking for a solution here where I can get my money or phone back

      • RockyRaccoon on 19/01/2020 - 10:03
        +53

        simple, if the buyer wont return it to you, at least they wont be able to use it. Why give it to them and let them use it as well

      • shadowangel on 19/01/2020 - 17:34
        +8

        Contact FOS. it's not acceptable for paypal to refund when the item was delivered, regardless of the chargeback.

        If that fails, court.

        Chances are the buyer has a fake account.

        In the future don't accept paypal or credit cards with out knowing the risks.

        • alikazi on 19/01/2020 - 18:20
          +51

          Honestly, if we can't trust PayPal or credit cards to follow common sense rules like "item was delivered - therefore seller should receive payment", then who are we supposed to trust at all? PayPal and credit cards are the best options for online shopping, how can you even say "don't accept PayPal or credit cards in the future"? The only other option I can think of is to just sell on gumtree by cash and be void of all responsibilities/chargebacks.

          • MrFunSocks on 20/01/2020 - 11:56
            +2

            @alikazi:

            PayPal and credit cards are the best options for online shopping

            They're the best option for online shopping for the exact reason why this guy got scammed though - if you don't get what you bought you can pretty much be guaranteed to get your money back. The problem is that you can just pretend that what you got is faulty or that you didn't get it and then just try get your money back as well, and like in this instance, they usually side with the buyer.

          • lgacb08 on 20/01/2020 - 14:43
            +2

            @alikazi: I dont put paypal and credit cards in the same basket. Paypal is a scum and last resort if I have to go through. They're self-interest bot that give no rewpect and we're still fortunate to have the bank that got hold of their balls for now. If anything that turns sour then they will do their best to screw anyone they can, as seen by this case.

          • callum9999 on 20/01/2020 - 15:30

            @alikazi: While I agree that the OP has been scammed, your summary is completely and utterly false. It isn't "item was delivered - therefore seller should receive payment". From the bank's perspective, it is "customer received faulty phone and the seller is refusing to fix it". Very different.

            • alikazi on 21/01/2020 - 11:03
              +2

              @callum9999: If customer has received a faulty phone, for the seller to "fix it" the phone should be returned to seller. The buyer in this case has closed off their account and disappeared into the abyss with no communication. Which is very clearly a way to keep the perfectly working phone while accusing the seller of selling a damaged phone. Thats the problem. Where's the common sense in this?

        • jasonb on 19/01/2020 - 23:11

          PayPal are scumbags, but in this case it's not their issue. The money has been pulled from under them by the card scheme.

          No idea if it's possible to escalate further with them or get details of the customer if OP can't otherwise make contact. Court action against a bank to release that info so OP can then start court action against the purchaser is probably much more costly than it's worth :-(

    • smalltime0 on 19/01/2020 - 17:07
      +4

      The buyer is ghosting him, so its impossible for him to even accept a return.

    • [Deactivated] on 18/01/2020 - 23:46
      +13

      If you make a coherent complaint to AFCA you should have a good chance of getting your money or at least your phone back.
      While the complaint is in progress, collections have to leave you alone as well.

      • summithunter on 19/01/2020 - 04:00
        +2

        Thank you .. so I lodge a complaint with AFCA against Paypal ?

        • [Deactivated] on 19/01/2020 - 12:00
          +4

          Yes.

          I would read up on your obligations as a private seller (I think you'll find consumer law probably doesn't apply) and AFCAs policies and procedures.

      • thatonethere on 19/01/2020 - 04:10
        +12

        AFCA is Ops only chance now given the buyer is off the radar with his phone and money. PayPal might refund him as a good will gesture

        For those saying block the IMEI you can only do that if your SIM has been active in the device. So a sealed phone you are screwed.

        I've stopped doing ebay for the family old phones. Just Facebook and cash. Might get a bit less and have to interact with strange folk but when the deal is done it is done.

        • shadowangel on 19/01/2020 - 17:48

          Even if it was blocked the phone is still worth something.

        • lgacb08 on 20/01/2020 - 14:45

          If your bought a phone as part of a plan you don't need your sim in there to do the block.

          • shadowangel on 22/01/2020 - 13:30

            @lgacb08: It can still be sold, most of these phones end up overseas and sold in phone shops. they are still worth something regardless of a block

        • cooni on 22/01/2020 - 11:03

          For those saying block the IMEI you can only do that if your SIM has been active in the device.

          Though this might be what's meant to happen, my carrier (Belong) has blocked an IMEI for me that hadn't been ever used on my account. All I had to do was ask - no proof of purchase, no police report, nothing.

      • paraneoplastic on 19/01/2020 - 11:43

        Just keep in mind AFCA usually take 2 - 3 months to respond

      • Lexan on 19/01/2020 - 17:39

        Could it be an inside job? PayPal did a chargeback so easy without asking buyer to return the phone back to seller.

        • whooah1979 on 19/01/2020 - 17:48
          +1

          Paypal didn't initiate a chargeback. The buyer did.

          • Lexan on 19/01/2020 - 18:50

            @whooah1979: PayPal didn't hear a full story from both side. Buyer said no return in case of faulty. Buyer cut off all contact. Seller can't get in touch.

            • whooah1979 on 19/01/2020 - 19:24
              -7

              @Lexan: It went down like this.

              The seller listed an item that they say was new. The buyer purchased the item and claimed that it was SNAD. The buyer contacted the seller asking for help. The seller gave the buyer an invoice and told them to bugger off. The buyer tried to claim a remedy from the manufacturer which they refused. The buyer is now unhappy with their $1400 paperweight and asks their bank for help. The bank initiates a chargeback and refunds the buyer.

              Did I miss something?

    • FireRunner on 20/01/2020 - 13:10
      +3

      Definitely do this. PayPal refunded my $400 after going through a dispute though AFCA
      See my posts here and here
      Good luck OP!

  • garetz on 18/01/2020 - 23:20
    +4

    Seems like paypal is trying to make you responsible for something outside your control, tell paypal the problem is between them and the buyers financial institution and has nothing to do with you.

    I would ask them Was the item received by the buyer ? Show them proof, im assuming you have the information from tracking.
    You received the payment, and have the money.

    You provided the item, and thats where your responsibility ends, ask them why you now need to pay paypal when its got nothing to do with you.

    • whooah1979 on 18/01/2020 - 23:26

      You provided the item, and thats where your responsibility ends,

      That is only good for an INR.

      This is a SNAD/chargeback.

    • summithunter on 19/01/2020 - 04:01
      +1

      Yes, I do .. have the tracking number which has been delivered and collected by the buyer.. also have emails or messages on eBay where I have provided him the original invoice.

      • FirstWizard on 21/01/2020 - 11:15
        +1

        Take a screenshot/print of tracking confirmation for future reference. Auspost usually deactivates tracking after 90days of delivery.

    • pharkurnell on 22/01/2020 - 14:30

      What is there to stop every sale using a credit card/Paypal going down like this?

  • toristo on 18/01/2020 - 23:28
    +4

    Paypal has advised you. Court.

    Yep, that's a sh-t option, but so is using paypal these days for anything. Sorry to hear this, but its a regular occurrence sadly.

    • bigbadboogieman on 19/01/2020 - 14:38
      +5

      I kind of agree with "using PayPal being sh-t option" bit.

      • kingnunu on 20/01/2020 - 20:53
        -3

        i disagree, using ebay a lot and having ebay plus, sometimes i receive items that aren't exactly as described. for instance i ordered an original display for a oneplus when i received it… it wasn't. wasn't even OLED or 90hz so paypal made it easy to get my money back as well as make seller responsible for return shipping. as a buyer i think paypal is incredible however in your case it seems though a scammer scammed you. What i dont get is how the bank initiated the refund.

        Paypal is usually responsible for the transactions on their platform. It sounds like you used paypal for the transaction and the buyer had a credit card linked to his paypal account but he used paypal none the less. Shouldn't paypal be helping you as the seller and not just saying blah blah blah the bank? clearly there was a transaction…

        Have you contacted ebay to figure out if they can step in?

        • ds311 on 21/01/2020 - 19:31
          +7

          Paypal is only good for buyers for sellers it is shit. Anyone who's ever sold something using paypal can tell you this. So I don't know how your anecdote about how it was good for you as a buyer really proves this otherwise

  • elgrande on 18/01/2020 - 23:32

    I refer to my earlier comment:

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/512300#comment-8230517

  • bburgess76 on 18/01/2020 - 23:40
    -5

    You need to accept a return and refund. Thats only option to get anything back.I would suggest once returned make sure it is the same phone, I've had this scam done to me, long process to get reversed. For the buyer to have a credit card provider do a charge back they would have had to provided a report from an accredited provider on the state of the phone. They are usually not cheap reports unless the scam involves dodgy reports to credit providers.

    Also, no the returns and warranty means nothing in ebay. I've been told by ebay staff any electronic device has a 1 month warranty however is still dependent on the issues noted in the description. If you say it's in fully working condition and buyer finds one little problem in 30 days you need to accept a return.

  • CyberMurning on 18/01/2020 - 23:40
    +5

    How many feedback the buyer has?

    • xuqi on 19/01/2020 - 15:39
      +28

      I had a buyer with 200+ feedback attempt pulling the same stunt. Unlucky for him we live in the same city, I had his work address, and his dad happened to be his boss.

      • Slippery Fish on 19/01/2020 - 16:30
        +3

        Lol

      • XanderYuan on 19/01/2020 - 21:57
        +1

        Come on story time!!!

      • Astro551 on 19/01/2020 - 22:11
        +7

        You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention.

        • xuqi on 20/01/2020 - 01:54
          +65

          Sold someone a phone for $750, after sending it him at his work address he lodged an 'item not as described', got his money back and sent back an empty box to me.

          Dropped by the company address I shipped the package to and found it was owned by the guys dad (his son was 17 years old). Had a chat with him and explained the issue. A short while later he calls his son in to the office and upon getting the full picture, goes to his room, comes back and hands me the money.

          Asks to see the phone and once it was handed to him, throws it to the floor and stomps on it with his boot, telling his son they'll speak later about making amends.

          The poor dad was part pissed off & humiliated.

          If you care about your lost $ enough it's worth making an effort at recovering it.

          • wkd on 20/01/2020 - 14:03
            +27

            @xuqi: that dad is a boss. pun intended

      • Zachary on 21/01/2020 - 14:34

        He should have used a PO box or similar anonymous postal address if he wanted to pull the stunt off without it backfiring…

    • Eeples on 22/01/2020 - 18:13

      Does it matter the feedback from the buyer?
      Are you going to decline the sale because the buyer has zero feedback? Can you?

  • HardlyCharly on 19/01/2020 - 03:21
    -1

    Lawyer up.

    • CroDemon on 22/01/2020 - 06:14

      Hit the gym.

      • Blitzfx on 22/01/2020 - 09:56
        +1

        delete facebook

  • KingJuf on 19/01/2020 - 04:41

    Can you hold your ground and push paypal to organise the item to be returned then you will clear the balance?

    If you paypal balance is left in negative can they actually put that as a default on your credit file or do they just ban you from using that account?

    • summithunter on 19/01/2020 - 10:40

      Thats the plan .. i have advised Paypal i would not be clearing the balance and going forward will not be using paypal for any transactions

      • shadowangel on 19/01/2020 - 18:01
        +2

        I don't blame you at all. I lost 4k over the last 2 years though my small bussiness for charge backs. Enough to make it not worth it anymore.

        • ash79 on 20/01/2020 - 00:07
          +1

          My partner is a regular eBay seller, she lost around $500 in last one year on chargebacks. None of the cases was closed in her favour even after having all the delivery proof and other documents. Lots of ifs and buts in PayPal seller protection policy. Its just there for a fancy word for their advertising.

          • shadowangel on 20/01/2020 - 14:19
            +1

            @ash79: Theres groups setup on telegram just for defrauding companys.
            PayPal especially, not just small purchases some of these are thousands of dollars, they keep the item and money.

    • hero000 on 19/01/2020 - 21:23

      I was in similar situation. Due to third party pulled funds from my account without my authorisation.My bank managed to pull the money straight away. PayPal balance remained negative. I had dispute with PayPal why they had let them take money out of my account. Anyway PayPal was calling me everyday to top up my account. Guess what after ignoring their calls. I got call from debt collectors.

      So becarful. This is very tricky.

      • chriskq on 21/01/2020 - 09:29

        then what happened?

      • pharkurnell on 22/01/2020 - 14:33

        Paypal sent me to debt collectors for $3.00…
        Bought something, paid with paypal but didnt realise I was 3 bux short
        using the pay after delivery option.

  • Ash-Say on 19/01/2020 - 06:15
    +19

    Take following actions and you have good chances of getting your money back

    1) As other people have mentioned, raise a complaint with AFCA ans PayPal will likely refund you as a good will gesture.

    2) Lodge scam report on https://www.cyber.gov.au/tags/acorn

    3) You have will buyer's address. Send them letter of demand stating you have lodged fraud/scam report against them with the police and you are happy to withdraw it once you receive your money back. ACORN is slow but the cops will contact you once your turn is up.

    • summithunter on 19/01/2020 - 10:39
      +12

      Yes, I intend to do that .. I have sent him an email stating that i would be going to his local police station will also lodge a scam report.. Thanks for your comment

      • Ash-Say on 19/01/2020 - 10:57
        +3

        Local police won't touch it as it's a civil matter. Lodge Acorn report as this is the right medium for this kind of matter

      • Ash-Say on 19/01/2020 - 13:13

        I am reading your original post and note that the sale was made in Sep.

        I fail to understand how chargeback was allowed considering maximum days is 60 or 90days for some visa cards.

        What am I missing here?

        • geoffs87 on 19/01/2020 - 22:07
          +1

          Thought so too… I tried to lodge a chargeback once upon a time for a pre order that wasn’t honoured, and no refund given. As it fell outside the 60days it was rejected.

          Weird thing was, there was never any way I would have received the item within the 60 days as it was a pre order!

        • mini2 on 20/01/2020 - 14:18
          +1

          VISA scheme rule is 120 days from the day service or item was expected to be delivered which can be up to 540 days from the day of the transaction. I would imagine Mastercard would be similar.

          Most banks wouldn't entertain chargebacks >90 days from the transaction date though.

  • t_c on 19/01/2020 - 06:18

    So what about small claims court? Ive seen it mentioned before in other threads regarding unrelated disputes and ppl mention its like around $150.

    • shadowangel on 20/01/2020 - 01:11
      +1

      And what if this guy just uses a forwarding address and this was a fake account ?
      Your out hundreds of dollars more.

  • pantsparty on 19/01/2020 - 06:59

    Honestly it sounds like you are screwed. You can follow the advice others have given but PayPal loves siding with buyers. I would only sell products like this on Gumtree, cash in hand only. Selling on eBay leaves you in a very vulnerable position.

  • Costanza on 19/01/2020 - 07:08
    +1

    https://www.paypal.com/au/brc/article/understanding-chargeba…
    "Regardless of the outcome, if the transaction is eligible for Seller Protection, you’ll keep the funds and any related chargeback fees will be waived."
    So what do paypal say when you quote that?

    • justif01 on 19/01/2020 - 13:37

      Seller protection only applies to unauthorised and non receipt claims. It doesn't apply to not as described/defective merchandise claims.

      • shadowangel on 20/01/2020 - 01:13

        Does it even apply at all to ebay sales ? I thought they had there own terms.

        It's been awhile since I was a seller

        • justif01 on 20/01/2020 - 09:13

          I think Ebay has a bit more "protection" for a seller but if the buyer wants to keep the item and get a refund there is little stopping them from doing what the OP buyer did.

          • shadowangel on 20/01/2020 - 14:27

            @justif01: Just opening a dispute on ebay, if the seller loses your out your item.
            Its refund and pay return costs and hope for the original item or lose everything.

            One of the many reasons I quit, ebay and paypal.

  • CyberMurning on 19/01/2020 - 07:35

    Yeah where is the seller protection?

    • xuqi on 19/01/2020 - 15:44
      +12

      There isn't, that's why you shouldn't sell things on Ebay, unless you're prepared to lose them.

      • SaberX on 20/01/2020 - 12:00

        How does one sell stuff otherwise?

        It makes me wonder - how do full time resellers on ebay and amazon etc. Cope. If customers are scamming items off personal whats to stop someone paying via paypal to majors like good guys etc. And pulling the same scam.

        • Drakesy on 20/01/2020 - 13:47
          +3

          Gumtree or facebook. It's the only way to guarantee a cash in hand sale. (if you don't mind strangers coming to your house). Have been doing this for years and wouldn't touch ebay.

          • Antikythera on 21/01/2020 - 01:22
            +2

            @Drakesy: meet people at the local police station or maccas. somewhere with a security camera. not at home.

            • Drakesy on 21/01/2020 - 12:00
              +1

              @Antikythera: Unfortunately trundling my trusty 55" TV to the macca's carpark is not going to go down well at the local macca's or police station, also looks fishy af

        • xuqi on 20/01/2020 - 13:55

          As below for personal sales Gumtree, Facebook with cash in-hand at work or a public location is best.

          I have no idea how major players handle this, but I assume they account for such costs in their business models, and have legal/investigative departs to handle scammers.

          • shadowangel on 22/01/2020 - 20:55

            @xuqi: I seen a group on telegram that does this to jbhifi, ebay and other big box retailers. Some of the returns are in the thousands and they keep the item plus money.
            Banks should not be allowed to do that.

        • wyrmy on 20/01/2020 - 14:16

          I think its become a problem now for personal sellers because PayPal and others have shifted their target to larger businesses.
          I bet they will actually be proper investigations done if the seller was a major.

        • macrocephalic on 21/01/2020 - 12:33
          +1

          You'll notice that domestic full time sellers on ebay have all but disappeared. There are large retailers who partner with ebay, and there are small overseas merchants who sell $2 widgets with free postage. The few domestic sellers which are left are likely just factoring in the lost revenue of some dodgy people.

          Ebay used to be a great place for casual people to sell a few second-hand items, but not any longer.

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