Going to Court for Going Through a No Left Turn Sign

Lknight321 on 23/06/2019 - 23:56
Last edited 02/07/2019 - 07:28 by 1 other user

Hey all!

I have a court attendance coming up next week for going through a no left turn sign placed on the intersection between Pitt St and Hunter St (NSW CBD). Basically, I dropped my family off in our small Mitsubishi Mirage at Circular Quay and tried looking for some parking around the area.

I was going up through Pitt St, and the first permissible turn was to Hunter Street given the arrow in the lane. The thing is that at the time, there was a bus already waiting at the front of the intersection to turn. As such, both erected signs conveniently placed on the left hand sides were (from my view) obstructed.

After turning in, three police officers came out, and I advised that the bus obstructed my view however he did not listen and said that I should look. This seems like an easy cash grab in my opinion :( How am I meant to see what's around a bus? At the time there was even another car behind me which was also stopped.

The officer said I should write in for leniency, and I asked how I can prove that a bus was indeed in front of me - he said he will upload his GoPro footage with the fine (which he did not). After writing into Revenue NSW it got turned down.

I live in the west and do not generally drive around the city as i'm not very familiar with the area and the signs. I decided to go to court with the hope of getting this thing dismissed…but I have never been to a court before :)

Two questions:

1) Shall I plead guilty with reason or do I have a chance of winning an innocent plead?

2) Will the officer show the GoPro footage of the turn in court?

FYI here are some images of the intersections and erected signs:

https://imgur.com/4rowiTm

https://imgur.com/v8YesQD

https://imgur.com/4N1Tvks

Any advice to help me with this matter would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers.

Edit: outcome of court case https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/465925?page=3#comment-7453…

Automotive

Comments

    • knight321 on 26/06/2019 - 21:49

      Thanks for this!

      I was already past the line. As bus was turning I just had a glimpse of a green light and focused on the turn to ensure it was safe. If you look at Google maps this is not a sharp intersection but it goes straight for a good 15m before turning in. Now imagine a bus undertaking that turn.

      Another confirmation of the green light is the car behind me. I did not enter blindly. I think the bus as it was turning in blocked the left hand portion of the sign revealing only the light. I did not expect a sign to be there by the time I went all the way through the turn.

      Its ridiculous and I am standing by that.

  • Jinxed50 on 25/06/2019 - 20:38
    +1

    Option one plead guilty with an excuse.

    The offence was committed but there's mitigating circumstances. Explain everything like unfamiliar area, obstructed signing etc. to the magistrate politely and see how you go.

    The police officer will only be there if it is a hearing day not a mention day.

    Just be careful not to start making excuses or blaming other people.

    • knight321 on 25/06/2019 - 21:45

      Once I get my statement together I will summarise it here.

      I am not going to blame anyone. I was in the wrong and will clearly and honestly describe my situation. Not sure if also saying that the overall design of the intersection should be improved. I will definitely mention something about the 'lower' traffic light positioning of the far left one as compared to the right - hence the obstruction.

      I am just seeking leniency. I have never been charged for such fine before - nor reckless driving (the only thing is I got fined for is driving on a bus lane which I paid for and did not contest). I have had my licence for 5 years now.

      • Jinxed50 on 26/06/2019 - 09:14
        +1

        If you are only seeking leniency than you don't need a statement because you aren't pleading not guilty. (Using a statement you be written isn't as straight forward as you think)

        This is only a court attendance because you elected it to go that far. You will be going to the downing centre so expect a long day.

        If you're seeking leniency than talk about your driving record (I'm hoping you're not leaving out some other matters on your traffic record) and any reason making the nominal penalty to harsh.

        Good luck

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/06/2019 - 09:42
          +1

          OP has already confirmed they have other recent traffic infringements. Section 10 is off the table.

          They need more than luck unfortunately.

          • Jinxed50 on 26/06/2019 - 10:34
            +1

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Then hopefully they don't get pinged for wasting everyone's time at court.

            • John Kimble on 26/06/2019 - 10:56
              +2

              @Jinxed50: Well, technically they should. Wasting the courts time should be discouraged.

              • Jinxed50 on 26/06/2019 - 20:29

                @John Kimble: Absolutely matters like this are a waste of everyone's time.

                • knight321 on 26/06/2019 - 22:25
                  +1

                  @Jinxed50: Not a waste. I have my reasons.

                  I spoke to a police officer at my local station who encouraged me otherwise and said that I do have a chance with this if the magistrate thinks so. He said it was unlucky what happened but the officer is not in the wrong for issuing the fine. Leniency is still an option.

                  After hearing this - I decided to try. Only time will tell now :)

  • THL on 25/06/2019 - 23:17
    +9

    OzBargain forum is probably the last place you want to seek advice. The forum is full of self-proclaimed professional drivers that makes them look like the perfect drivers who obey every single road rules and never made a mistake. You might also get various interpretations of the Road Rules which might not work in your favour if you quote them in court.

    My advice would be: lodge a traffic engineering enquiry to RMS and let them make the interpretation whether there's any design flaws. (not sure if there's such service since I'm based in Melbourne and I know VicRoads has this).

    I reckon it's a good idea that you take it to court. If it fails, then at least it's a lesson learnt for you to be extra careful next time. You seem to accept the fact you are at fault and you don't seem like one of those new forum users who are just here to blame on someone else.

    Good luck and let us know how it goes! :) It is a very interesting case you have here.

    • knight321 on 26/06/2019 - 21:54
      +2

      Thanks for this.

      Yes I am not going to be swayed but all I can appreciate is some advice which I can consider/take on board.

      I think this was ridiculous and I am standing by that. I was confused by what I did wrong when the officer stopped me. Its not fair man - I am CERTAIN I saw the green light and just went after moving up 15m through the intersection. Should I have seen the sign at the lights when I have been stopping for 2-3 minutes I would NOT have turned in.

      I dont know if they will help me tbh. The sign itself has been there since probably before 2010 (I looked on google maps) with no change. It seems like its something that works.

  • Munki on 26/06/2019 - 11:23
    +1

    Hope you got your Tarocash suit ready, OP!

    I believe the road signs in Sydney are terribly designed on purpose. The ABC had this quiz not too long ago with parking signs - comparing Sydney's to other cities, and it was beyond stupid at how a lot of them are. Ones like the 15min parking only during A and B times but 2 hours during C and D times, and 4 hours every other time on X-day to Y-day. Sydney is definitely a city for revenue raising.

    • knight321 on 26/06/2019 - 21:59

      Haha! Nah I missed out on the cheap suit :(

      Rules are rough here ay aha. Cant beat it unfortunately but gotta do our best. In this case I dont have a problem with the sign - it just needs to be CLEARER, and the intersection itself really is messy. An obstruction by a bus when im in a small car is really crap aswell. It all worked against me and really hard to prove without a dashcam.

      Sure some people might think otherwise - but given my experience I think not. Its only when you face such issue that you begin to question things aha.

      Cant do much but hope the judge understands my pain.

  • bizarredeal on 26/06/2019 - 11:47
    +1

    Another stupid fine. Barely noticed in real life if he had gone through the left lane or not. If a bus, taxi or hire car can be allowed then a regular car in an odd occasion, in a unintentional manner is not going to stop the world revolving.

    The cops are just as good for issuing fines nothing more. Anything that brings money for them. Way too many theft, break ins and hurting goes around. But the real offenders simply walk it off. Just an innocent tax paying citizen cops all these stupid fines.

  • KaTst3R on 26/06/2019 - 14:03
    +1

    I seriously dont like to drive in Sydney city. All these construction work is a big issue but a bus lane in the middle of a three lane road? What the…

  • Rumstein on 26/06/2019 - 14:23
    -1

    You should claim you drove a hire car.

    • knight321 on 26/06/2019 - 22:11

      HA! I wish.

      Just imagine like I go through -> get stopped -> get fine for 'No Left' -> take pictures -> realise I got a hire car -> case dismissed?! WTF? Like why is a hire car allowed there in the first place? loool

      • Vote for Pedro on 27/06/2019 - 07:39
        +1

        A hire car in NSW has HC plates and is a fancy pre booked taxi. Think chauffeur driven.

        • knight321 on 27/06/2019 - 08:36

          Ah gotcha so it's not the hire car I'm thinking of where you pay for a normal car for a day - it's more like a taxi?

  • UFO on 26/06/2019 - 16:18
    +5

    So often I've read posts from people looking to get out of traffic fines when its clearly just trying to avoid the fine and responsibility.

    But in your instance I am pleasantly surprised. You actually have a sound argument for contesting!

    Looking at those photos and your reasoning, I'd definitely be contesting if I was in your circumstances.

    But NOT the guilty part though.

    Go guilty in Court, admit that you were completely in the wrong and shouldn't have turned left. You aren't disputing guilt. But explain exactly how it happened.

    • You weren't familiar with the intersection/live out of the city etc.
    • A bus obstructed your view until the last moment.
    • You turned on a left green arrow, from a lane designated a turn left lane.
    • An additional sign further forward of the intersection would allow people to read that it's a complex left turn condition. Leaving it to the actual intersection is unfair for people to comprehend AND watch out for pedestrians etc.

    The Magistrate 'should' find you guilty, but not issue the fine.
    Don't harp on about financial difficulty, unless you can actually prove you are in legitimate financial hardship.

    I'm not familiar with that intersection, and I can tell you right now with a green arrow and cars behind me, and traffic turning left with you, I probably would have turned as well!

    Give it a good shot and let us know how you go.

    • knight321 on 26/06/2019 - 22:16

      Thanks for this man! You pretty much got all my issues :)

      'But NOT the guilty part though' - So are you saying I should not say 'I am guilty with reason'?

      The judge will ask me first think what my plea is…I can either go innocent or guilty.

      • UFO on 26/06/2019 - 23:49
        +3

        Guilty plea, then he'll go to sentencing.

        At this point you're at the Court's mercy. Guilty, no conviction recorded, no penalty… or completely the other way… Guilty, conviction recorded, original penalty plus a little more for Court's time.

        But you can't win on denial. You are 'winning' on the reasonableness of the current penalty.

  • paloverde88 on 26/06/2019 - 20:21
    +1

    What I am keen to know is was that a Huawei or Samsung camera that took those super clear pictures. Well done

    • knight321 on 26/06/2019 - 22:18

      Be prepared to be surprised - its the Oneplus 6! I love its photos!!

      Thanks man hopefully it all goes well.

  • Joey4 on 26/06/2019 - 21:11

    Whats the deal with the stop sign with the 3 holes in it?

  • zqipz on 27/06/2019 - 07:50

    Glad I scrolled past the competitions for this one.

  • dufflover on 27/06/2019 - 13:25
    +1

    I just assume you can't turn anywhere in Sydney :P
    It's all restricted, one-ways everywhere, etc.

  • Lucky13 on 27/06/2019 - 21:21
    +1

    I think you should maybe try to contact the police officer that said he would provide the video footage for you. It was really nice of him to offer to do this, but maybe he has forgotten as he is probably very busy. If you don't know the officer's name you should probably try to find it out and contact him about providing the footage, as this would probably be your only option to get out of your fine. Good luck with it all anyway.

    • knight321 on 27/06/2019 - 21:25

      Thanks for this mate! The officer was the same one whom issued the fine to me as I asked him how I am able to prove the obstruction after he gave my licence back. I have his details on the Court Attendance Notice. Not sure whether he'd be inclined to provide me the footage now that there is a court case coming up. What are your thoughts?

      I would've assumed he'd issue the footage to the magistrate to prove that I did the turn?

      • Lucky13 on 27/06/2019 - 21:30
        +1

        I don't know you cant really assume anything. He's probably a really nice guy though if he said he would do this for you, so I guess maybe ring or email, etc and just be nice, explain the situation and ask if he could still provide the footage for you. Guarantee being super nice in this situation would go along way. Hope it all works out.

  • spaceflight on 27/06/2019 - 22:34
    +1

    The ticket has been written that the offence is turning against the indicated sign?

    If so you can't plead not guilty because you have clearly committed the offence.

    You need to plea "guilty under mitigating circumstances" and then explain your side of the story.

  • Porker on 28/06/2019 - 15:43
    +1

    I provide this response without having read all the other responses, but…

    During my university and early road design years, we were always reminded of driver 'expectancy' and to design for it. The simplified notion is that drivers will use other cues to control their vehicle and make decisions.

    So one possible 'expectancy' cue for the situation (again I haven't looked at it fully), might be, you're in the left lane with intention to turn left. On the approach to the intersection all cues suggest you can turn left, eg, repeating left turn road markings (on approach to the intersection) and sighting of a signalised left-turn arrow, such that you are preparing your car (and mind) to turn left only to be encountered by a sign at the intersection which prevents the left turn. The expectancy has been interrupted by the sign.

    The sign is valid as it (presumably) does comply with the road rules and the infringement is also valid too because you disobeyed the road rule. But there may be a failure in road design which has not managed the expectancy of motorists. For example, advanced 'no left turn' signs could potentially have been included on approach to the intersection to inform drivers and assist with the decision making process.

    • knight321 on 28/06/2019 - 23:06

      Not only that - they could've also at least placed a second raised traffic light, similar to the far right end, on the far left-hand side. Currently both lights where the sign is placed are really low and as I experienced easily obstructed!

  • Janko on 28/06/2019 - 19:51
    +1

    Too late now, but if you do get nowhere in court, take solice in knowing there are times you've likely got away with breaking the law.

    After losing no points since 2002, I recently did about 20 points of damage in the space of 3 minutes in one of Australia's most profitable intersections, cameras everywhere.

    Strangely never got any fine.

    So now if I got a fined for not stopping for a unicorn crossing a zebra crossing, I'd just say "Sorry. I won't do it again."

    • knight321 on 28/06/2019 - 23:09

      Haha nah man im sure everyone has broken some sort of law.

      If the fine does stand, ill just pay it and move on. At least given the circumstances I knew I tried.

      Now the hard part is only clearly convincing the magistrate for leniency.

  • knight321 on 01/07/2019 - 11:43
    +26

    Hello everyone.

    I just would like to thank you all for your kind words and support with this matter.

    I just finished the court hearing. I pleaded guilty with the reasons outlined in this forum. I outlined these in a letter drafted to the court along with the photos. I did not have to speak.

    The magistrate said that he accepted my explination, and given my good record with only 1 demerit point I am a reliable driver. There were no objections or questions whatsoever and the case has been fully dismissed. Took 2 minutes.

    It was interesting however to see some of the other cases there with people speeding and with infringements for unregistered vehicles getting dismissed or reduced suspensions. The court is really for the people.

    Anyhow this is a win in my books. Thank you all again 😁✌️

    Batman out.

    • luffyex2010 on 02/07/2019 - 07:40
      +2

      Congratulations!

      • knight321 on 02/07/2019 - 12:53

        Thanks Luffy 😄

  • nekro on 02/07/2019 - 07:03
    +2

    Good to hear OP.. glad it worked out for you

    • knight321 on 02/07/2019 - 12:53

      Aha cheers mate!

  • glumanda on 04/07/2019 - 22:59
    +3

    Thanks for keeping us updated - great to hear that it was a positive outcome!

    Interesting to hear what you said about other people's fines getting dismissed or reduced suspensions. Did those people also have a good track record, or did the magistrate happened to be in a happy mood that day?

    • knight321 on 04/07/2019 - 23:23
      +1

      The magistrate was quiet helpful and reasonable at the same time. He definately considered track records. However if track records were poor, he looks at the explination. But to be safe you really need both to be good.

      For one p-plater in particular he helped by reducing suspension to 1 week given that he had one speeding infringement on double demerits. I think the fine still applied though.

      He did enforce the law in the sense that where leniency was provided he strictly said there will be a record of it and it will be their only chance. Next time they go to court it won't be easy.

      This wasn't my case though. He carefully looked at all material and by the end said it will be as if nothing has happened :)

      I've never been to another local court before so I'm not sure what the standards are. If you believe that the fine is unfair, definately contest it! But if you have no reason to, probably best to just cop it.

      • nith265 on 04/07/2019 - 23:47

        Were there any court costs involved?

        They’re always mentioned in threads like this but I’ve sat for hours across many days in Magistrates courts in Melbourne and never once heard mention of them - nearly every case I saw was a guilty plea like yours. Apart from one guy I saw who had a several previous driving offences and was seeking a lower penalty for speeding, there was never any suggestion from anyone that they were “wasting the courts time”.

        It looked like in NSW there was a more mandatory fee unless you were given a Section 10 dismissal

        • knight321 on 05/07/2019 - 00:13
          +1

          Yes I think there's like an $82 fee when you pay to the court. I didn't hear a mention of it though so maybe it's just automatically added (I think).

          As you see in this thread, those who say 'you are wasting the courts time' have probably never been to a court. The court is there for you to be heard and the infringement will get dealt with accordingly.

          All the cases at my court had some sort of reason/used their clean 10+ year record except for 1 lame one which the judge roasted her for lol.

          • CVonC on 05/07/2019 - 00:37

            @knight321: Is there anything going to be done about the sign?

            • knight321 on 05/07/2019 - 22:24

              @CVonC: Not from the Court case. If I complain through RMS maybe - but would probably need to get a collective one. Even then, looking back on google maps - the sign has been there for a while and the intersection itself hasn't changed.

              • capslock janitor on 21/10/2019 - 16:00

                @knight321: Just so everyone knows Elayna is definitely wearing underwear in this photograph. We were there. We have also double checked the photo, cross referenced it with the matching undies, done a high res MRI of the thumbnail and had our people in Coober Pedy (which is Australia’s Washington) go over it with a magnifying glass and fine tooth comb. They sent it to the International Classification of Media who sent it back to Australian where it ultimately fell under the “Classification (Publications, Films and Computer games) Act 1995” and after a 6 month trial an opinion poll and an online referendum the photograph was stamped in the high court of Australia as “Vagina Free Content” and has been given a Parental Guidance Recommendation in Australia and several other members of the United Nations but is still pending in Uzbekistan, New Guinea and Tasmania. Please, as always, relax and enjoy.

                capslock janitor on 21/10/2019 - 16:00 (Collapsed - Offtopic. Show)
          • nith265 on 05/07/2019 - 11:51
            +1

            @knight321:

            fully dismissed

            I missed this when I first read your update comment above, I guess that means you did get this section 10 dismissal

            this www.lawaccess.nsw.gov.au page says that s10 means you dont pay the court fee.

            lol to all the know it all expert comments and "advice" earlier on about your prospects of this outcome.

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