Going to Court for Going Through a No Left Turn Sign

Lknight321 on 23/06/2019 - 23:56
Last edited 02/07/2019 - 07:28 by 1 other user

Hey all!

I have a court attendance coming up next week for going through a no left turn sign placed on the intersection between Pitt St and Hunter St (NSW CBD). Basically, I dropped my family off in our small Mitsubishi Mirage at Circular Quay and tried looking for some parking around the area.

I was going up through Pitt St, and the first permissible turn was to Hunter Street given the arrow in the lane. The thing is that at the time, there was a bus already waiting at the front of the intersection to turn. As such, both erected signs conveniently placed on the left hand sides were (from my view) obstructed.

After turning in, three police officers came out, and I advised that the bus obstructed my view however he did not listen and said that I should look. This seems like an easy cash grab in my opinion :( How am I meant to see what's around a bus? At the time there was even another car behind me which was also stopped.

The officer said I should write in for leniency, and I asked how I can prove that a bus was indeed in front of me - he said he will upload his GoPro footage with the fine (which he did not). After writing into Revenue NSW it got turned down.

I live in the west and do not generally drive around the city as i'm not very familiar with the area and the signs. I decided to go to court with the hope of getting this thing dismissed…but I have never been to a court before :)

Two questions:

1) Shall I plead guilty with reason or do I have a chance of winning an innocent plead?

2) Will the officer show the GoPro footage of the turn in court?

FYI here are some images of the intersections and erected signs:

https://imgur.com/4rowiTm

https://imgur.com/v8YesQD

https://imgur.com/4N1Tvks

Any advice to help me with this matter would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers.

Edit: outcome of court case https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/465925?page=3#comment-7453…

Automotive

Comments

  • fossilfuel on 24/06/2019 - 00:27
    +79

    That's one mess of a lane and signage. You have the arrow on the ground and a no left turn sign at the light with certain times and days when you can and can't turn left and certain vehicles that are excluded. That would take a good 10-20 seconds to read, get confused and decide what to do next. The signs might also be occluded by the trees if you're in the left lane. On top of that, you have a left turn traffic light arrow which would have made it more confusing when it turns green (as seen in your first pic).

    I would have gotten confused by the street marking, sign and traffic light. If you disobeyed the sign during the hours and dates specified, then you're in the wrong. Yet I think it's important to provide the reasons I started above to the magistrate or at least the local council or RMS so they could address it because that's one poorly designed lane.

    Show the magistrate the photos you took of the lane, signs and traffic light.

    • knight321 on 24/06/2019 - 07:02
      +22

      Thanks for the detailed answer :)

      That is a great point. Many cars seemed to have been confused by this intersection - and I think the police knew of it hence why they targeted drivers there. It would be interesting if the intersection gets redesigned because of my case lol

      I did turn in between the hours hence why I'm thinking of pleading guilty but with the reasons being the confusing intersection and obstructed signage. There was no way of me knowing that such turn was not allowed if I had 0 visibility of the sign which advised me to do so given all other variables.

      • SpotTheOzzie on 25/06/2019 - 13:09
        +67

        First law break on OzBargain in 2019 where I think OP should be excused.

        Best of luck dude.

      • fossilfuel on 25/06/2019 - 21:01
        +1

        You're welcome :D I'd love to see the intersection redesigned. Please keep us updated.

        I did turn in between the hours hence why I'm thinking of pleading guilty but with the reasons being the confusing intersection and obstructed signage. There was no way of me knowing that such turn was not allowed if I had 0 visibility of the sign which advised me to do so given all other variables.

        Agreed. They need to at least remove the left turn arrow on the ground and change the lights so that only the green light comes on and not the green left turn light as well. That way when people reach the front of the lane, they can eyeball the no left turn sign, drive straight or merge into the right lane then go "oh shit, I could've turned left" if it's outside the specified hours and they'll know for next time. Another sign on the left footpath 10-20m before the lights would also help immensely.

        • knight321 on 25/06/2019 - 22:21

          Totally agreed - thank you!

          I doubt they'll do much with redesigning the whole intersection until many people start collectively complaining. I just looked on google maps and the sign has been there for a while it seems (looked at the view from 2010 and it was still there…).

          I have a bad feeling my submission will get turned down but cant hurt to try :)

          Discussing it with a cop from my local station makes it sound like I have a chance - if the judge understands my situation. But only time will tell now.

          Going to speak with a lawyer from LawAccess aswell to see how I can go about it from the legal side of things :)

      • Name on 27/06/2019 - 17:59
        +1

        Probably already said but you should take the 3rd photo again when the traffic light (left turn arrow) is green. Just to make sure it looks even more confusing.

        • knight321 on 27/06/2019 - 19:59

          Good tip. I'll try taking it over the weekend.

      • knight321 on 24/06/2019 - 12:44
        +15

        Sure but there are line markings in the laneway indicating otherwise. I think from memory I did see the green light and just followed through. The bus, given our small car, blocked the signs and by the time I got past the line i just followed through the turn.

          • capslock janitor on 24/06/2019 - 16:56

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Huh.. always-by-the-book Zeggie…

          • Intoxicoligist on 25/06/2019 - 10:47
            +10

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Stopping for 2+ seconds at a light in sydney is a lynchable offence. Especially during peak hour like this. As he can only turn left from that lane would you suggest he A: Break the rules and go around the corner, or B: Try to swap one lane to the right from a stand still. Personally I was told by my driving instructor not to swap lanes over an intersection, but I don't think thats a road rule. But in this case it's definitely a risky move further complicated by building traffic behind your car.

            I'm not saying what he did was legal, but I'm saying there are complicating factors

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/06/2019 - 10:55

              @Intoxicoligist: The very last car accident I witnessed was someone at an intersection 2 cars in front of me. For unknown reasons the car in front of me (and behind them) beeped their horn. Unsure why because the light was still red. The driver of the car at the front, probably "unobservant" and incorrectly thinking they had missed the light turned green, smashed down their accelerator and entered the intersection when the light was still red and was cleaned up by another vehicle.

              I'd rather someone comply with the rules, take their time reading traffic signs or lights, and avoid accidents or hurting someone. Someone frustrated behind them wanting to "lynch" them can just simply wait. Not everyone can comprehend the road rules (this thread is a big example) nor comprehend information in the same amount of time. Safety should be the priority. Let someone honk behind you. No damage done.

              • Intoxicoligist on 25/06/2019 - 10:57
                +4

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Id argue flooring it into a red light is pretty different to missing the few second window of opportunity OP had to read the sign (whilst the light was green).

                • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/06/2019 - 10:59
                  -8

                  @Intoxicoligist: That driver didn't observe the traffic lights.

                  OP didn't observe the signs, and they were likely breaking another road rule, being too close to the bus in front.

                  • Intoxicoligist on 25/06/2019 - 11:03
                    +7

                    @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I can sit 3m behind a bus but still not see through it from my drivers seat to the front corner. If I'm following at that range around the corner I've got maybe 2-3 seconds to take my view away from the green light and the intersection, check for additional signage and then recheck the intersection to make sure it's clear.

                    I'm not arguing that he didn't break the rules, but that it's understandable given the circumstances that he did.

                    The cops waiting for people to make this mistake indicates its something that happens regularly and should probably be fixed. Unless they want to keep fining people for breaking the rules rather than fix the poor setup of the intersection, which seems to be the case.

                    • John Kimble on 25/06/2019 - 11:07
                      +1

                      @Intoxicoligist: I walk past that intersection alonst daily. I doubt the cops were sitting there waiting for people to turn left…OP was likely just very unlucky they were there at the time.

                      • Intoxicoligist on 25/06/2019 - 11:14
                        +3

                        @John Kimble: Fair mate, the way they described it below made it sound like a setup (3 cops running over, getting the person behind them as well).

                        • John Kimble on 25/06/2019 - 11:23

                          @Intoxicoligist: Yeah, I suppose it's possible.

                        • knight321 on 25/06/2019 - 19:11
                          +2

                          @Intoxicoligist: Haha nah it's a common spot it seems. They were coming on bikes from the station down the road. They also had go pros ready on the go. As soon as people turn in they pop out and stop ya!

                          Yeah I got unlucky as 10 mins after when I came back to take pictures they were gone and cars were still going through it like it was nothing!

                          • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 22:36
                            -1

                            @knight321: Geez, from not very familiar with the city to apparently its a common spot for police all within the space of …

                            • knight321 on 25/06/2019 - 22:38

                              @Vote for Pedro: I said 'it seems'. Otherwise why would they be standing there push biking from the station down the road? Its just an assumption.

                              • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 22:42

                                @knight321: It seems like you’re trying to paint the police as intentionally being sneaky.

                                And I’m not a fan of the police.

                    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/06/2019 - 11:30
                      -4

                      @Intoxicoligist:

                      I've got maybe 2-3 seconds to take my view away from the green light and the intersection, check for additional signage and then recheck the intersection to make sure it's clear.

                      Then keep further back, or come to a complete stop and let the bus execute its turn, to allow yourself more time to check signage and lights and to ensure the intersection is clear.

                      Simple safety.

                      • lonewolf on 25/06/2019 - 12:14
                        +4

                        @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: maybe its because you dont drive in sydney and maybe other cities road signs are alright but sydney road signs especially in the CBD are absolutely horrendous at times. Even their parking signs at times can be dreadful, Including certain parking signs which say you can park but only if you go up on the kerb, i got done once because the signs said nothing of the sort (I should have fought it in court) as i actually parked a good 20 minutes from where i needed to go and i paid for a parking ticket and displayed it and parked between the signs. BUT I DIDNT go up on the kerb and i dont know if they have fixed this issue but 10+ years ago when this happened, there was no indication you had to go up on the kerb.

                        So people like me who have never worked in the CBD and dont drive in that often didnt even realise there was anything like that.

                        Furthermore There is no chance you can stop at an intersection for 20seconds to read a road sign, that will actually cause many accidents in itself as people behind you will try to get around you and change lanes etc. Just like how apparently majority of accidents in school zones arent people just driving through but people pulling in and out and parking and looking for parking etc causing chaos and congestion and worst of all confusion.

                        In my experience a lot of accidents are due to confusion of what the other driver is doing.

                      • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 22:39

                        @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I know when im turning right, I don’t just follow the car in front if I can’t see.

                  • smartazz104 on 26/06/2019 - 07:24

                    @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: A red light is easier to see from most distances than that sign…

      • fossilfuel on 24/06/2019 - 17:30
        -2

        10-20 seconds is an exaggeration. Given that there's so many things going on, it would take at least 10 seconds all up to view the sign, interpret what it all means then make a decision.

        • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 21:40
          -2

          There’s no way that sign should take you more than a few seconds to interpret. If in doubt, don’t turn left.

      • Zonty on 25/06/2019 - 09:02
        +1

        When you drive un familiar area then you got few seconds to act when back of your car keep pushing you. If sign confusing you have not enough time to act right.

      • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 11:56
        -2

        Trying to work out why all the negs. The sign isn’t complicated.

        Could signage be better? Maybe.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/06/2019 - 12:02
          -7

          Shrug, all the negs late last night it appears.

          Sometimes the truth hurts. I'm not making anything up. I'm literally referring to the Road Rules which were linked and publicly accessible.

          There could be more signage. There could be more signage for 50% of the intersections in Sydney. Then people would complain there is too much signage…Regardless OP isn't arguing the sign is complicated. OP said they never saw it in the first place.

          • knight321 on 25/06/2019 - 19:14

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Yes I never saw it because it was obstructed. How to fix it? Design it so that vehicles can see it when there's a bus infront. Simple.

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/06/2019 - 19:22

              @knight321: And what do you propose as a solution? (other than using common sense and waiting for the bus to move)

              • knight321 on 25/06/2019 - 19:27

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Like I said this requires better thinking and design.

                If a suitable design can't be achieved then it shouldn't be there in the first place. The street itself is very narrow for one.

                I've seen many traffic lights raised up really high on a post with a sign attached like the one on the top right of photos 2 and 3 - that could be one way but not achievable here I don't think.

                • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/06/2019 - 19:28
                  -2

                  @knight321: So you think waiting for the bus to enter the intersection, giving you a clear view of the traffic lights and sign, is unreasonable?

                  • R-Man on 26/06/2019 - 08:16
                    +4

                    @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: You've harped on about safety too much. The sign says no left turn, buses excepted, so turning left will not result in death.

                    In this situation do ya really expect people to stop at the intersection, read the sign, then indicate right and try to get out of the 'left turn only' lane?

                • WhyAmICommenting on 25/06/2019 - 20:52
                  +4

                  @knight321: Yeah, needs earlier signage than it currently has.

              • smartazz104 on 26/06/2019 - 07:25
                +1

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Maybe you could be on call 24/7 to provide assistance in the event a sign causes confusion; you seem to know it all…

                • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/06/2019 - 08:53
                  -2

                  @smartazz104: Na, everyone should just drive on thru oblivious like you suggested in your other post.

                  • Pretzel_Ninja on 22/10/2019 - 15:00

                    @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Signage is not always perfect and there's a reason why road signs are changed and updated. Is it not possible that this was a badly designed intersection and with a combination of the bus, trees on the sidewalk, even leaving a safe gap behind the bus - the driver could not see the sign until he was at the intersection?

                    Your proposal that the driver sit there for 20 seconds to read the sign and then proceed to move back into the right lane sounds like a much higher potential to cause an accident. One could argue that you cannot then change lanes across an intersection.

                    Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

                    The good news is that the magistrate will have better reasoning skills than yourself or the Police Officer.

  • [Deactivated] on 24/06/2019 - 00:37
    +2

    I don't think other traffic is a valid obstruction or sports cars could claim most signs are not visible.

    • knight321 on 25/06/2019 - 20:33
      +1

      I had a thought of your comment.

      The car I was driving is not a sports car - its an average sized small hatchback.

      In design - you need to consider the majority of cars on the road - and I see hatchbacks everywhere.

      These need to be considered. If not then you're leaving them out of the equation and could be putting lives in danger.

    • John Kimble on 24/06/2019 - 01:15
      +2

      Eh? Where does he say he stopped in a no stopping?

      • whooah1979 on 24/06/2019 - 06:32

        Yellow line on the left.

      • [Deactivated] on 24/06/2019 - 11:31

        Google maps, look further back not in the pictures shown.

    • knight321 on 24/06/2019 - 07:33
      +7

      Thanks for this. I dropped my family off Infront of Circular Quay which was down the road - there was a drop off point :)

    • Zonty on 25/06/2019 - 09:03
      +1

      Have you seen how many signs on road? It better put sign what driver can do then not to do 😂😂😂

    • o53djz7qTPY4der on 24/06/2019 - 06:05
      +29

      The issue is, all signals suggest you can turn left until you reach the lights. Even then, that solitary sign would/could easily be obstructed.

        • knight321 on 24/06/2019 - 20:00
          +1

          Not whenever I please - but such turn is permissible in the lane UP until you get to the lights.

          • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 12:00
            +6

            @knight321: If I’m not mistaken, the left arrow on the road only indicates that a vehicle in that lane can only turn left (if permissible) and that it cannot go straight or turn right from that lane. It doesn’t indicate whether your vehicle is actually allowed to turn left.

            • kolorijo on 25/06/2019 - 15:26
              +1

              @Vote for Pedro:

              it cannot go straight or turn right from that lane.

              so where do you think op should go after reading the sign? turn left? straight or turn right? none of the options are viable for him/her at that stage.

              • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 15:50
                +1

                @kolorijo: Well, OP can’t turn left. The sign says so. Perhaps a viable option is for OP to hand back his licence and we’d all be happier.

                Seriously though, it appears to me that the line between the left lane and middle lane is unbroken. That would indicate a merge when safe is possible and to continue straight.

                That’s my interpretation of the road rules. I’m happy to be corrected.

                • kolorijo on 25/06/2019 - 16:32
                  +2

                  @Vote for Pedro: Broken line. You are correct about merging when safe. I stand corrected.

                • knight321 on 25/06/2019 - 19:17

                  @Vote for Pedro: I'm not arguing that. If I had seen the sign in the first place and not been confused by the lane way then maybe I would've merged. Even then if I had seen a no left turn sign as I was driving up I wouldn't have turned left at all.

                  • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 19:28
                    +3

                    @knight321: I know. It was a response to another comment.

                    Sorry you failed to see the sign. I personally never turn blind. Going by your photo, if you couldn’t see the sign, you couldn’t see the signal. How did you know it was still go for left?

                  • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 20:57
                    +2

                    @knight321: No, but seriously, how did you know the signal was green for a left turn if you couldn’t see the sign because of the bus.

                    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/06/2019 - 21:44
                      +1

                      @Vote for Pedro: He won't answer this. It's asked in 3 other places and he won't answer this specific question.

                      • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 21:53
                        +2

                        @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I’m not sure why this one has triggered me.

                        I think it’s the over the top attempt at blaming everything else for ops mistakes but also the subtle tweaks to the scenario to suit the argument. And the blatant bullsht ‘the bus blocked the sign but not the signal’

                        I’m way more triggered than I thought I’d be.

        • smartazz104 on 25/06/2019 - 10:53
          +1

          Yes a left turn only arrow suggest you should be in the left lane for no damn reason.

        • ChatCPT on 25/06/2019 - 11:40

          @zeggie give it a rest mate. your comments are of no use

          • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/06/2019 - 12:03
            -3

            @ChatCPT: Care to share any insight on the topic? Your contribution so far is…zero.

            • ChatCPT on 26/06/2019 - 08:45

              @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: thats fine. I'm trying to read the responses from the people with useful comments but its filled with you like a cancer

      • WaterMark on 25/06/2019 - 09:04
        +2

        I’m sorry but there’s actually a second sign behind it on the opposite end of the intersection. The sign was not solitary and would have been fully visible but ignored as it is next tot he arrow traffics light.

        https://imgur.com/4N1Tvks

      • sitdowndisco on 25/06/2019 - 13:21
        +5

        You turn left on a no left turn sign, you're breaking the law. End of story.

        The argument that my view was obstructed by a bus doesn't work otherwise we could use that excuse for anything we do wrong. "Sorry sir, I didn't see the sign because of a bus, tree, person".

        The lane markings are on the road are to show vehicles which lane to turn from. Some vehicles are allowed to turn left 24/7, some aren't and the sign states that.

        The only weird thing about being booked here is that no left turn signs are rare.

    • knight321 on 24/06/2019 - 07:34
      +3

      That's the problem and this is why this issue needs to be addressed. People are probably rich enough not to fight it but I don't feel comfortable with letting this cash grabbing business go on…

      How am I meant to know whether I'm not allowed to turn in if the sign advising me not to do so is blocked off by a bus? All other variables suggested otherwise?

      • Vote for Pedro on 25/06/2019 - 15:56

        What cash grabbing business? Giving you a fine for turning left when you’re not allowed to turn left? Those scoundrels.

  • crashloaded on 24/06/2019 - 01:17
    +10

    I'd have a red hot crack.

    • locknuts on 25/06/2019 - 21:50
      +4

      Once the magistrate is finished with you ya might!

  • whooah1979 on 24/06/2019 - 06:41
    +7

    1) <- Go to court, plead guilty, show remorse and sob while you tell the magistrate that you're barely making ends meet. Tell them you're struggling with your bills and this fine is going to hit you hard. Ask for a caution or a payment plan.

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