Hi all, as the 86 forum I usually use is dead I thought you people might know something I don't
I'm planning to turbocharge my 86 but am having some troubles in terms of legality. To the best of my knowledge no turbo kit will pass emissions testing due to the removal of the primary catalytic converter. My issue isn't with police attention because I don't drive like an idiot and live less than 500m from one and have never had any issues. My issue is when it comes to insurance. The last thing I want is to be denied a claim (touch wood). I've seen that RACV still cover the car as long as its roadworthy, but emissions testing isn't part of roadworthy, so would it still be covered under insurance.
On another note the kit I've chosen when fitted looks completely stock the naked eye and you can't even tell it's been modified
Thanks in advance :)
Getting Turbo 86 Legal
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Call me paranoid, but it sounds like something they'd take down and note in case you ever made a claim
Then that answers your question.
Have a friend call up and say they are interested in buying such a car only if it can be insured.
You should be able to call up as if you're a new customer looking for quotes. Don't give any personal details
If it is something you don't want them to know then you are already in a very bad situation as in any accident they are going to find out! better to be told upfront you need to find a new insurer than be told after an accident that you aren't covered.
I'm not an expert at turbo 86s Howe er I'm pretty expirienced with modified cars in general, all of my cars have been insured with Shannon's insurance with every modification mentioned in policy, however everything was done legally, which means engineered etc etc
The only time you will need to worry about emissions is IF you have been summoned to the epa in which case you will need to tune the car to e85 put a cat on (pre 1985 cars dont need to run a cat) in nsw anyway…
Before going ahead with your plans my suggestion would be like most of the comments down the page and that would be to contact your insurer and ask if they will insure a modified car. Remember legal is key factor here, as long as your engineered it's legal.
If you just worried about emission then can't you just weld a high flow cat back on?
There is a turbo kit with cat option
https://www.carmodsaustralia.com.au/stage-3-bolt-on-turbo-ki…
but emissions testing isn't part of roadworthy,
Why worry about emissions when it isn't a requirement for the RWC?
I think that's misleading, they won't check the exhaust with their own equipment, cars already have their own sensors for this. Having the cat absolutely is a requirement, all they have to do is plug into the OBDII port to see it's missing and the sensors are messed up, if there isn't already a check engine light on the dash because of the sensors.
- When the car is tuned, won't the tuner disable this code?
- This code usually takes a couple hundred kms to show up, could get a RWC done during that period?
To put a turbo on a non turbo car I would expect you would either have to replace the ECU or the car comes with an ECU that is easy to reprogram.
I dont know anything specifics about 86's however I have an S15 that has been modified from stock to make more power.To make more power the engine will need to burn more fuel.
This will usually require bigger injectors.
If you need more fuel than the fuel pump can supply at the appropriate pressure, then you will need a bigger fuel pump.
Bigger Injectors will have different delay times, deliver more fuel, and need to be programmed into the ECU along with the new tune. Which is why you will probably need a new ECU.Now here comes the difficult questions.
If you get a new ECU which one should you get?
- Ask you tuner and dont get one they cant tune.
- Do you get a Haltex Flex and a fuel sensor so you can optionally run ethanol E85 for even more powers and torques.
- If you do decide to run ethanol or petrol, then you will need even larger injectors.Increasing your cylinder pressure (adding boost) makes it harder for the spark plugs to work so you may need to reduce the gap. The issue with reducing the gap is that this reduces torque. If you plan to stay under 1Bar then you should be fine and likely to be gapped down to about 0.7mm ish.
What boost do you plan to run?
How many KW at the wheels should that make?To partly answer the initial question, Shannon's will insure a car with unlimited modifications as long as it is still road worthy.
I think 'just cars' may be another option.
@grrrr: Thanks for the reply
To my knowledge they use Ecutek to tune the factory ECU. For the power level I'm looking at stock injectors are supposed to be ok. Definitely staying under 1 bar(14 psi) as the stock internals can't hold that sort of power for much time.
Stock the car makes around 110rwkw and I'm looking to bump that up to around 180 on 98@cille745: How much torque does the engine currently generate and how much will it after tuning?
The 86 is an FR. That's a long drive shaft. Is the driveshaft rated for your increased torque? How bout the torque converter?
@[Deactivated]: Screw driveshaft concerns, stock injectors, turbo kits, no knowledge of ECU, deleting codes during tuning (lol). Kid has bigger issues…
Emissions are the last thing insurers will care for, what they will care about (if they even notice) is the increased power and how that could be a factor. Just go with enthusiast insurance like Shannons etc - they aren't there to try get there way out of every claim.
@mezje: Look mate, not claiming to know everything, getting the knowledge as I go, no need to be an ass
@mezje: What's so funny about deleting codes? Also he doesn't need to know anything about the ecu, standard one is tuneable.
@brendanm: That is exactly my point, seems like he thinks stock ECU will be tuned and worried about codes for emissions? Just doesn't make sense.
@mezje: He obviously doesn't understand how the tuning side works, but he doesn't really have to at the end of the day. Tuner will tune it, and disable the P codes relating to the first oxygen sensors.
@grrrr: Just Cars have shut down. I was with them for my v36 skyline but I had to move to Shannon's when my insurance cover finished.
Turbo and supercharger kits are legal and fitted to 86's by Perth Toyota Dealerships. Simply come over, have the work done and register the car at a WA address… then you get to pay WA Registration (cheaper than Vic registration when i last looked anyway) and you wont have any problem with insurance because its a) meets registration requirements, b) Australian insurers cover Australia wide
Would it not need to be engineered? Increasing power in a non factory way may require upgrade of brakes etc as well.
Assuming it does get an engineering certificate for the mods then the insurer may or may not insure you, but there are specialist insurers hat will deal with modified cars.
I've read about this and it confuses me. On a track it makes sense that for a faster car you're obviously going to need better brakes as your approach speed to a corner will be considerable quicker, but on the street, everyone slows down from the speed limit, so why would you need better brakes?
Serious? You want to increase power but not the brakes?! Fully sikkkk
Please tell me you're upgrading the factory tyres too
Tyres are definitely on the list, stock 215's aren't going to cut it
@cille745: Spackbace is right rookie mistake to go all out for power first
why not attempt a few hard braking stops in a row don't recommend anything with a turn or without a runway or extra travel distance
1 or 2 hard goes on the brakes not taking it to lock up but a quick reduction to say stop for something in a hurry the brakes will start to glaze and pushing harder on the pedal isn't going to do anything.
you will say I didn't break the speed limit (which may well be correct) but you got there much faster and need to stop quicker.
you might not realise you glazed them till the next set of lights and you happen to be driving normally but the car isn't stopping like it should. (brakes are not just a concern for cornering)
2nd thing if you're involved in an accident the inspectors will go through your car looking for the anything that can get them off the hook there goes all that money on the car the mods and probably the cost of other vehicle. not that I'd wish that on anyone but think of the consequences.
Years ago I was at my local tyre place getting my tyres done, and a really nice Skyline (can't remember which year or model, but it was a low end model and not a GTR or anything) came in. Workers obviously knew him as they went over to check out his new engine. I went over and asked him about the car. He had just got the engine done, fully rebuild, blueprinted, all really good components, and a really expensive turbo kit. Car was making over 500rwhp……and he was running factory brakes and he said they were fine. I just laughed. He said he was taking it to the track to see what it could do. Good luck with that brake fade mate.
@spackbace: Mate, hektic doesn't even cover it.
To be fair, engine bay was mint. Super tidy, and all polished chrome.
@AdosHouse: Some people do one hot lap.
No fade. For that one lap. Pull into pit, go to the other stalls and tell everyone how sick their car was out there, grab a red bull or fifteen, and get back out there for another hot lap.
Woops, brakes still a tad bit hot. I guess a "deliberate" and "controlled" move to the greens is a "respectable" move.
If you aren't going to the track you don't need to upgrade the brakes.
I don’t think you quite understand how it works. It may well be that the factory brakes are above spec and suitable for the extra power, but if you want to drive your car on the roads it needs to be approved. If you modify, the approval process may require you to modify additional items to maintain a level of safety. Typically, the ‘fast’ version of a car model also has upgraded brakes to suit. Wether that is for track only and overkill for the streets doesn’t matter.
I definitely understand the process, from an engineering and safety point of view is where I don't understand. Whether the car is turbocharged or not is irrelevant as in any road situation where I need to break the car will be travelling at the same speed. Tyres are definitely understandable as you want to keep traction
@cille745: I do see your point about driving legally on he streets with the same weight etc, but it’s just he way it is (and I agree with it).
@cille745: It's not for you. It's to reduce the risk from an acceleration incident with an unfamiliar or poor driver.
Rubber stampersEngineers are looking for bigger brakes (as it implies more braking force) and not fade resistance brakes which are more suited to the track.
I've read about this and it confuses me. On a track it makes sense that for a faster car you're obviously going to need better brakes as your approach speed to a corner will be considerable quicker, but on the street, everyone slows down from the speed limit, so why would you need better brakes?
Your logic for needing better brakes on the track is not quite right. How fast you stop is a matter for your tyres, not your breaks. If you just start driving and hit the brakes as hard as you can, you won't stop any quicker with the better brakes. The better brakes are for heat dissipation mostly, when your brakes start to heat up, they work less well and the friction with your rotors is reduced. Better brakes get rid of the heat more quickly so you can continue to brake harder as you drive around the track.
Thanks for the explanation
Sorry P1 I disagree I've driven a high power car with racing tyres and stock brakes once you have glazed the surface ain't no tyre in the world will help, the second he brake tests it a few times he will see.
I do have one question first.
The second you disable traction control the car is sideways without even really trying which is why it's a great drift car even in its factory setup.
What happens when you're suddenly pushing more than its parameters are set to, is it going to permanently try halting you, putting strain on engine and drivetrain or will the ECU have a melt down, or have to have traction control permanently disabled?
This isn't Gran Turismo where you can blow past everyone on a straight and come to a halt hitting the barrier turn then power up the next straight
I've been there and made the mistakes myself, luckily I decided it was unroadworthy before it killed someone so I changed brakes and suspension all these things need doing if you are going to pretty much double the power output, I've watched others do the same learned what actually helped improve lap times. All you have to do is run a quick calc on torque and work out what the breaking point is where the tyre becomes in effective and that is based on power and weight distribution which is pretty neutral on the 86
Sorry I just don't wan't to see anyone hurt and I'm in support OP's past time
My current car is pushing 300KW and approaching 500Nm torque backed up by 8 pot brakes (370mm ventilated rotors at the front and 310mm rear) and fully adjustable suspension. So more than a toy and I've done a real brake test with it on the track including full speed break while changing lanes to avoid object in front. full stop from 110K's in just under 45 meters ABS stops the chunks being torn out of the tyres.
I'm confident when it has to stop it will can I do a lap pushing my limits absolutely.
This Engineering article should be of help (http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/brakes.html)
BRAKES: BIGGER IS BETTER?
Most people think first about making their car faster, second to handle better, and last is to slow down faster. Then, soon after someone has had their first or second track event, they realize that the brakes are an area that can have a significant effect on lap times. No matter how fast you can accelerate, you still need to burn off some speed at some point. The more brake power available, the higher the deceleration rate, the less time that it takes to drop the speed. Hence, you can carry your speed down the straight before you brake.
why would you need better brakes
Have you actually ever been in a car with brake fade?
Don't worry, ended up doing most of it myself lmao. The costs just keep adding up
when fitted looks completely stock
Question - the 86 utilises a horizontally opposed engine, like most (all?) Subaru motors. So, if, like I understand the WRX and STI do, the intercooler is top mounted, would you not need a vent in the hood?
I'm assuming if you have a front mounted intercooler, then you would need a grill up front? So, excuse my ignorance, but how will the system look stock?
Vent in the hood isn't needed. Uses the stock black grill on the front with a black intercooler, its pretty stealthy. Looks very OEM and unless you knew what an 86 engine bay looked like you could easily think its OEM
So if you can’t see it, and won’t use it because you are a ‘responsible driver’ why bother putting the turbo in?
Never said I wouldn't use it. The law limits max speed not acceleration
@cille745: https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2553253
Would you like to attract unwanted attention on your unengineered car?
This just keeps getting better!
@spackbace: Police attention where I'm from is really at a minimum. I don't see what "keeps getting better". Was in front of a police car last week doing 6000rpm with a loud exhaust at 11pm. If that isn't the definition of chill I don't know what is. I mainly care about insurance purposes
@cille745: So if you're not doing it for aesthetics, and if you're not hooning, why turbocharge? Enjoy that turbo lag from lights bro.
@SydStrand: Don't need to hoon it in order to enjoy it, haven't ruled out superchargers either, especially since the harrop one comes with emissions compliance
@SydStrand: If he isnt changing the internals or the compression ratio, then the car will perform the same as stock before it makes boost. Once it starts making boost then it will have more power. My S15 performs like a lancer / 86 (NA 4 cylinder) until it gets above 3500 RPM.
!
@grrrr: Maybe OP is sick of being flogged by "Sports" Camries at the lights!
My 2c this car will not respond well to a turbo, there are many reasons it doesn't come with an option for one from the factory, but that's a whole extra discussion….
Look at replacing with a faster standard car or car with small mods like exhaust and tune and you will have far less problems with insurers.Insurance will only matter when you end up on your roof somewhere and the cops say you were hooning by measuring the skid marks.
They would take it away and assess - then you are screwed if it's not a legal mod, you will be paying for it and whatever you hit.No insurance company is going to insure a modified 86 with a turbo, because they know most of them will end up on their roof from boy racers that say they wont use it for drag racing (maybe crazy WA insurers might, but it wont come cheap)
Good luck!
put VIC in title
every state have different rules / process
in qld just a blue modplate
don't know about VIC
Yep if it's Vic why have anything more than a standard 4 banger these days unless you plan to track it.
The speeding and "hooning" laws here are out of %^^$ control, bloody nanny state BS.
86's lolol
What car would you prefer?
If you want customisablity and performance, perhaps you should have gone with the new Subaru WRX (non-sti, I have my reasons).
Otherwise, there's the used car market with many discontinued options for your liking.
PS: Don't underestimate the XR6 Turbo and Holden SS when it comes to price and performance. While some Euro and Exotic Jap cars seem enticing, they're not great options in Oz.
tb charging an 86 will be awesome brah, hope you get a decent exhaust kit as well
Sell it and get a car which is powerful enough for your needs. Lots of cars are turbo charge now days. Get a 335i or 340i and lightly tune the ECU to easily get 450-500hp. Infiniti Q50/Q60 twin turbo which is a baby GTR which makes from factory 400hp can be easily tune to have 600hp.
Eats Ferraris and Lambo.
Definitely fast, but asking for a lightweight, manual, reliable, turbo car sets you back the same amount as an 86 only 20yrs older
A Turboed or Super charged 86/BRZ is definitely cool.
BigKs arguement does have alot of merit. A car already turboed with 200kW has the right sized brakes and the right compression ratio and the right manifold / vacuum system to handle boost. The last thing you want is for the welds to fail on the intake manifold.
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/results/?sortby=~Price&limit=12&q=(And.Service.CARSALES..GenericGearType.Manual..Induction.Turbo+Intercooled..Doors.2..EngineType.Piston..FuelType.Petrol+-+Premium+ULP..Power.range(175..300).)
Yes I'm disillusioned with the lack of fun manual cars you can get nowadays. Sigh
Get a factory sorted car/turbo with big brakes proper suspension, why piss about DIY. You will spend the same amount of money or more and you might grenade a motor.
Go get a WRX STI, Cayman, GTI, Golf R, mini JCW, used BMW M2/M3/M4, used Merc E55, E63, C63, etc etc etc
Its only a BRZ/86 with a turbo kit whoopie doo,its nothing special and you will be spending more time in the tuners than driving it and it will be a money pit.
You are asking Ozbargain for help, so you have got no idea on how to wrench your own car, yet alone a modified one. You'll be spending $$$
Yeah I was thinking a manual WRX/STi would be the perfect fit. After all, that's all it would be compared to, and there's not a lot of respect for modified 86/BRZs out there tbh
Cayman, GTI, Golf R, mini JCW, used BMW M2/M3/M4, used Merc E55, E63, C63, etc etc etc
OP next thread : "Cayman service ripoff , parts cost ridiculously high"
Very underrated cars those q50s. Id be concerned about the gearbox holding up though, unknown limit.
Everything you named weighs at least 1500kg.
Yeah, I can't believe what some people are recommending. An XR6T or SS is just too large to be comparable. A WRX or Golf, while nimble aren't a replacement for a lightweight RWD coupe.
That Q50 is on E85 race fuel (not from pump)
Even Holden entry level SS can get to those number easily with E85 tune on its stock LS3.
Couldn't agree more.
Fitting a turbo/sc to a NA car is far more maintenance than a car that comes with one from the factory. I purchased my BRZ in 2017 and looked to install a turbo and when you factor in tune and labor costs it was well above $10,000; at that point, I put it up for sale and purchased an A45 AMG
op: please advise which pole you intend to wrap yourself around.
Have a chat to Aaron at Import Monster (Bayswater), or Chequered Tuning.
If you're looking at the AVO kit, my suggestion is don't - It's a kit made to a budget and has quite a few teething issues.
Was reading quite attentively, myself having a 92 with a 4A-GE.
Got to the end and realised we're talking about the 86 and not the AE86 - subsequently lost interest :/
Anything modified or somewhat special I usually go with Shannons over other insurers.
Any money says that OP can’t drive the car in it’s current form anywhere near it’s limits. Adding a turbo to this mix will only move the limits the other side of a ragged edge. To get any benefit out of the extra power, you will need brakes, tyres and suspension upgraded.
You complained about the price of a few spark plugs getting changed. You don’t know what you are in for when you start bolting turbo kits onto cars that were not designed for them. I’ve been there, done that. If you think the spark plug change was expensive, you’re in for a shit time once you start dyno tuning and rebuilding engines.
Can’t wait for the “Installed a turbo on my 86 and it ran good for a week, then it made a pop noise, like a backfire and now is runinng like shit. How do I make it fast again?”
No cat is an automatic not road worthy, so insurance will be void.
I have a close friend who I’ve helped achieve this in nsw. Just need to get it engineered (power to weight is a big thing in nsw). Managed to get 200kw Atw. GTS brakes are fine as car is light and even with turbo isint all that fast (unless u start to modify internals). U can always just buy a high flow catalytic exhaust which will pass emissions and noise.
My advice though - don’t do it. Not worth the trouble, spend money and get a better car from theget go.
Or just keep the stock cat and drill it.
ahh, the good ol' punched cat
the smell still haunts me
didn't neg you btw
No worries
Whoever it was, this is a joke
This is very illegal, and not cool
Legal needs to be engineered.
Insurance, depends on your age. Shannons will insure it if you meet their criteria. I had a highly modified WRX with them when no one would touch it.
Cost all up will be 10k for mods and if you can get insurance will be high.
Car if you sell it be hard to sell.
Ring insurance and ask for a quote, personal think its not worth it. Id get a more powerful car and keep it stockish.
Thanks for all the advice guys, will probably end up getting something else, shame there aren't other cars available that's exactly what I want
Seriously, just enjoy it for what it is
My last car had an 87kw engine, it was great fun revving it hard around town.
I now have something with about 3x more power, but if I put my foot down more than halfway I am at 140km/h.
You really won't get 10k of more fun from the car with a turbo.
Just get some better wheels and brakes, maybe upgrade the suspension so you can have more fun in corners.
My brother bought a demo car off Harrop with turbo etc fitted. Suggest contacting them.
Just wait until Toyota Supra comes out sometime at the end of this year
And costs 3 x of 86?
Then just wait 8 more years and pick one up for 25k
You get what you pay for :)
Yeah but I guess OP doesn’t have that much money to pay for it?
No cat… are you serious?
Not sure what it’s like in Vic, but in NSW that is a massive fine and a car without a cat is easy to pick up. It’d be looking at stroker kits first.
Link us the one you’ve picked
Yep would not go down the no cat path at all.
Stroker path is probably as expensive as a basic turbo kit, but will net you 25-30% of the gains. truly not worth it at all.
There is more to it than that…
The turbo kit route is obviously an issue, so you can rule that out. Stroker, cams, extractors, exhaust, tune is the way to start. Then add supercharger later on.
If you look on facebook, there's an 86 + BRZ Enthusiasts group that you can join - would be good to ask there. :)
Shannon's are usually pretty good with insurance.
What turbo kit are you looking at getting?
In VICTORIA you'll be hard pressed, QLD and WA yes. But I think some have done it in VIC, but it'll be costly .. for street legal.
If you're on Facebook, join the Victorian 86/BRZ club. There are a few that have done a turbo, and there is some really good sponsors that will be very helpful too: https://www.facebook.com/groups/victorian86club/
engineer cert plain and simple
get it engineered. insurers can void a policy if the car does not comply to road rules.
get your full licence and a decent car…
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Why not ask your insurer if they would insure you?
Since you haven't told us who you are with, and that every insurer is different, you're making it very hard for us to assist in any meaningful way.