RTBU (Rail, Tram & Bus Union) Strike 29th Jan, What Say You?

[Deactivated] on 18/01/2018 - 10:32
Last edited 25/01/2018 - 16:34 by 2 other users

NSW RTBU (Rail Tram & Bus Union) is planning a strike on Monday 29th of Jan, the first day of school this year, and the first working day after the Australia Day long weekend.

Union tells Sydney commuters to stay at home during the strike.

The strike announced merely a week after they took sickie, blamed the timetable and the storm

"The trains will go to bed on Sunday night and won't come back out on Monday," union secretary said.

The union wants its workers to get a 6 per cent annual pay increase, but the Government is refusing to budge on its offer of a 2.5 per cent rise.

Update 1

Despite today's talks, the Rail, Tram and Bus Union (RTBU) NSW secretary Alex Claassens said that at this stage, the planned 24-hour strike would still go ahead on Monday, January 29.

Update 2

Possible pre-strike on Thursday 25th after failed 3% payrise negotiation

Confirmed pre-strike:
train services will be significantly reduced from Thursday 25 January and through the Australia Day long weekend.

Update 3

On Monday 29 January all stations will be closed and no trains will run across NSW.

Update 4

The planned industrial action impacting train services has been suspended by the Fair Work Commission.

Poll Options expired

  • 134
    They deserve 6% pay rise each year over the next 4 years, for what reason?
  • 586
    They already lucky with gov offer of 2.5% pay rise.
  • 21
    They should get 1% pay rise or pay freeze like some of us.
  • 78
    They better off live in a dream world with fairies and unicorns.
  • 42
    I don't care, I drive my $80k investment car.
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Comments

        • [Deactivated] on 19/01/2018 - 08:52
          +2

          @liquid metal:
          Let's not stick brainwash labels on everything you cannot argue against. It's not an argument on it's own.

          Interstate offering better pay. Management getting better pay. Both these statements just demonstrate envy. If the other states and management suffered your perceived equal amount, everyone will be happy? Of course not. Argument moot.

          They strike because they are not getting what they want. No one should take a group trying to disguise extortion as negotiation.

          Finally, "we lot don't get it" also isn't an argument. I think union supporters don't get it otherwise they'd stop acting like spoilt children with a protest they can't even rationalize or debate.

        • abb on 19/01/2018 - 09:25
          +1

          @tshow: > If the other states and management suffered your perceived equal amount, everyone will be happy? Of course not. Argument moot.

          Nice straw man!

          If management had their pay frozen (rather than 9% boost), and other states were being paid less than Sydney (remember Sydney has higher cost of living), I guarantee they would not be asking for 6%. No strike. Everyone displeased but begrudgingly getting on with it? Of course! Argument moot.

          Both these statements just demonstrate envy

          Maybe. So what? It's a human emotion. Greed is another one ($695k for the CEO, to do what? Implement new timetables without sufficient staff or slack time to recover from minor delays?).

          The game between employer and employee is as old as time. Employer wants to pay the minimum possible. Employee wants to get the maximum possible. Each side uses whatever weapons they can, but the power is usually in the employer's hand, since the employee has to work to pay for their living expenses…

        • [Deactivated] on 19/01/2018 - 09:40

          @abb:
          "Straw man". Please explain what a straw-man is and how I have applied it. I'll wait for this one.

          It's not a straw man argument when I did not create a new argument. The points are already there. It was screaming a comparative argument. I reversed the same argument, not create a new one.

          Straw man. Don't bring rubbish like that to a debate if you are going to use it on the worst possible scenario.

          You can guarantee an absence of a strike based? Based on what? Yallourn coal power plant strike was not based on someone else getting paid more. There was still a strike. Precedence.

          So what if someone is striking out of envy? I'll concede that point to you. I don't even want to address it with adjectives.

          The power seems to be in the employee's hands. The employer and employee seem to enter a consensual business arrangement where both sides would be in agreement. The employer cannot terminate an employee without paying a redundancy. An employee can hold the company's processes and refuse to work.

          Of course the employer is in a better financial standing. Of course it's unequal but inequality doesn't mean inequity.

        • abb on 19/01/2018 - 09:58

          @tshow: Why so mad?

          Original proposition (liquid metal): justifiable because others in the same organisation recently got more
          You: if all are punished, would some be happy? ==> (functionally equivalent to) ==> if all are NOT A, are some A?
          You: No!

          You have substituted a different scenario, which answers your rhetorical question before you've asked it, and then on the basis of that self-evident response, have declared the issue resolved.
          If there is another name for this fallacious argument technique, I apologise for my mistake. Straw-man was the best I could think of at the time. Now that I think about it more, it's probably more of a Chewbacca defense?

        • [Deactivated] on 19/01/2018 - 10:35

          I still have no reason to defend my argument. It's precisely what you've described in your scenario, but I reversed the roles. Instead of everyone getting a payrise (as per the demand of the "strike"), I proposed the same argument is valid for everyone getting a pay cut. Everyone ends up equal as per argument of equality.

          Rhetorics point out absurdities. I answered it in case the rhetoric are lost to some. Apparently it was.

          You can ridicule my arguments and call them Chewbacca straw mans but it doesn't make your argument less hollow. Debate on merit, less you be seen like another union "negotiator".

        • nonbeliever93 on 20/01/2018 - 00:07
          +1

          @tshow: Interstate offers better pay and as a result, Sydney has a shortage of drivers, a lot of mandatory overtime for existing drivers and a new train timetable highly vulnerable to disruption. The strike is a bargaining chip to address problems which will also help commuters in the long run. Patronage of Sydney trains has increased by 10% in the last year, so how can they attract new drivers to drive those trains if conditions are sub-par?

  • OzzyOzbourne on 18/01/2018 - 18:45
    +2

    Who else is a getting 6.5% rise?

  • LUTSlit on 18/01/2018 - 18:50
    -7

    Who actually catches public transport these days… ick

    • Meliodas on 21/01/2018 - 17:41

      Most of us are not working for Wespac, so we can't buy $80,000 investment cars

  • horsome on 18/01/2018 - 18:52
    +2

    Union - the most ironic title for an organisation where the only people that benefit from them are the ones that run them.

    • liquid metal on 18/01/2018 - 20:17
      +5

      Complete and utter bullshit. You're just butthurt for whatever reason.

    • imurgod on 19/01/2018 - 09:17
      -1

      Very true. Unions haven't been relevant since the 70s.
      Adding no real value now.

      • burns13 on 20/01/2018 - 01:21

        Unions are not relevant
        you wont have access to public transport

        Pick one

        • imurgod on 20/01/2018 - 09:52
          -1

          Ahhh public servants. Wanting pay rises and perks at the taxpayers expense without actually having to perform.

          We may as well have no public transport given how terrible it is on a world scale.

          Also, I guarantee you there'll always be someone ready to take a public service job considering the amount they're paid vs how hard the work is.

          Try working in the private sector where you have to consistently produce under pressure to get a pay increase.

      • [Deactivated] on 20/01/2018 - 19:19
        +1

        If that was true then the employers are literally offering us all the benefits without any reason?

    • burns13 on 20/01/2018 - 01:20
      +1

      Im in a union. Fair money and conditions. More than our officials get actually

      • imurgod on 20/01/2018 - 09:56
        -1

        Why would you need a union to get those conditions though?

        Everyone else negotiates them without the need for a union.

    • ninetyNineCents on 20/01/2018 - 18:07
      +1

      Yeh how dare the drivers demand they work reasonable hours and not being forced to work something like a day extra overtime every week.

      • imurgod on 20/01/2018 - 20:46

        But none of that is happening, is it?

        In fact, they've got it better than most.

        In my industry, entry level is not paid anywhere near $70K and they work long hours, don't get anywhere near the leave and entitlements.

        You know full well that the public sector get far too much already with the tax payer picking up the bill.

        There are those who work hard and those who do the bare minimum… Guess which ones are public servants.

        • ninetyNineCents on 20/01/2018 - 21:45

          I: But none of that is happening, is it?

          99:
          Did you ry and google for "nsw train driver overtime". There are dozens of stories from different media outlets.

          http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-16/sydney-train-driver-sp…

          ~

          I: In my industry, entry level is not paid anywhere near $70K and they work long hours, don't get anywhere near the leave and entitlements.

          99: Considering your previous line said train drivers dont work much overtime, what exactly are you comparing ?

          Well if you are getting a bad deal, you should be complaining. two wrongs dont make a right.

          ~

          I: You know full well that the public sector get far too much already with the tax payer picking up the bill.

          99: We arent a talking about the public sector because the vast majority of them arent train drivers. Thats like me saying you are getting paid too much because the head of Australia post got 10M. Try and talk about the actual subject.

          ~

          I: There are those who work hard and those who do the bare minimum… Guess which ones are public servants.

          99: Obviously you arent doing much either, because you denied that train drivers do overtime in your initial sentence.

          We arent talking about public servants…

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 00:19
          -1

          @ninetyNineCents: except as someone else posted, train drivers get 12 sick days, tons of leave and far too much pay and you basically can't fire them if they're rubbish. It isn't exactly a highly skilled job, come on. I'd rather see nurses or teachers get a pay rise considering the job they do and guess what, everyone does overtime.

          Graduates who spent a fortune and studied don't get anywhere near what train drivers get.

          You can paint any picture you like but you know full well a train driver has it better than most and it's a pretty cruisy job.

          Id say a factory worker or chef works a lot harder yet they don't see anywhere near the benefits and money a train driver sees.

          The fact remains that unions are nothing but thugs who haven't been relevant for nearly 50 years.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 16:49

          @imurgod:

          I: except as someone else posted, train drivers get 12 sick days, tons of leave and far too much pay and you basically can't fire them if they're rubbish

          99: So what if they get 12 sick days and other benefits. They are underpaid for what they do.

          ~

          I: . It isn't exactly a highly skilled job, come on

          99: WHo said it was ?

          THis isnt an argument. There are jobs driving trucks in mines paying close to 200k in WA.


          I: Graduates who spent a fortune and studied don't get anywhere near what train drivers get.

99: So what if they did. There are people working 10x harder than you or me in third world countries for 10x less.

          I: You can paint any picture you like but you know full well a train driver has it better than most and it's a pretty cruisy job

          99: I never said it wasnt. You havent said a remotely intelligent thing. Most of what you say could be said of many other jobs, but its not the governments role to start changing how much people are worth for their jobs.


          I: I'd rather see nurses or teachers get a pay rise considering the job they do and guess what, everyone does overtime.

99: I agree, people like them should be not paying any tax, but i dont run the country. The problem is there are too many idiots who dont understand things cost money and sometimes you have to pick the cheaper option just to keep things running.

~~

I: Id say a factory worker or chef works a lot harder yet they don't see anywhere near the benefits and money a train driver sees.

99: I agree. WHy dont you protest against all the CEOS who get millions for (profanity) things up, like the management of the trains, who completely (profanity) up this and many other parts of the train system.

          I: The fact remains that unions are nothing but thugs who haven't been relevant for nearly 50 years.

          99: You have said many things none of them actually a solution or an alternative that is cheaper.

          Let me remind you, you continue to say driverless trains. That will cost HUNDREDS of millions to implement and probably 100M a year to run for the software contract and then theres more for the sensors and so on. 9000 train drivers dont cost any where near that much.

          So tell me, whats smarter, pay these guys a few $ more, or shut the city down ?

          The real problem is the management gave themselves a 9% pay rise and they have (profanity) everything up. They are closing down the bankstown line for a year soon, they dont have enough drivers and want more trains to run.

          What shoupd happen is the management should lose all their high paid jobs and that money should be given to the real workers who actually count and get the job done.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 18:56

          @ninetyNineCents:

          I: except as someone else posted, train drivers get 12 sick days, tons of leave and far too much pay and you basically can't fire them if they're rubbish

          99: So what if they get 12 sick days and other benefits. They are underpaid for what they do.

          I: Ok then, remove the leave, additional benefits and treat them like any other worker, including the ability to fire them easily for breaches and non-performance.

          ~

          I: . It isn't exactly a highly skilled job, come on

          99: WHo said it was ?

          THis isnt an argument. There are jobs driving trucks in mines paying close to 200k in WA.

          I: Welcome to the private sector. This is what I'm getting at.

          I: Graduates who spent a fortune and studied don't get anywhere near what train drivers get.

          99: So what if they did. There are people working 10x harder than you or me in third world countries for 10x less.

          I: True, but I can't fix any of it. A train driver is unlikely to be able to do what I do nor attain my skillset. I can easily learn to drive a train. That said, I agree, the world should be a lot more balanced…. but it simply isn't and we live in a very lucky country.

          I: You can paint any picture you like but you know full well a train driver has it better than most and it's a pretty cruisy job

          99: I never said it wasnt. You havent said a remotely intelligent thing. Most of what you say could be said of many other jobs, but its not the governments role to start changing how much people are worth for their jobs.

          I: Maybe you just can't recognise intelligent things when you read them. Also, the govt isn't doing that, unions are trying to. We could talk about other jobs but in case you hadn't noticed, the topic is train drivers. Regardless, train drivers are already overpaid for what you admit is a cruisy job.

          I: I'd rather see nurses or teachers get a pay rise considering the job they do and guess what, everyone does overtime.

          99: I agree, people like them should be not paying any tax, but i dont run the country. The problem is there are too many idiots who dont understand things cost money and sometimes you have to pick the cheaper option just to keep things running.\

          I: Not sure what you're getting at here but put simply, a nurse or teacher is a far more difficult role than train driver and I think tax dollars are better spent there.

          I: Id say a factory worker or chef works a lot harder yet they don't see anywhere near the benefits and money a train driver sees.

          99: I agree. WHy dont you protest against all the CEOS who get millions for (profanity) things up, like the management of the trains, who completely (profanity) up this and many other parts of the train system.

          I: I simply don't care enough and the public sector will never, ever get anyone decent when a similar role in the private sector will pay them 10x as much. I wouldn't take the PM role for the pittance they're paid.

          I: The fact remains that unions are nothing but thugs who haven't been relevant for nearly 50 years.

          99: You have said many things none of them actually a solution or an alternative that is cheaper.

          I: We had a good place to build from - Workchoices was a good launching platform albeit unpopular and in need of fine tuning.

          99:Let me remind you, you continue to say driverless trains. That will cost HUNDREDS of millions to implement and probably 100M a year to run for the software contract and then theres more for the sensors and so on. 9000 train drivers dont cost any where near that much.

          So tell me, whats smarter, pay these guys a few $ more, or shut the city down ?

          The real problem is the management gave themselves a 9% pay rise and they have (profanity) everything up. They are closing down the bankstown line for a year soon, they dont have enough drivers and want more trains to run.

          What shoupd happen is the management should lose all their high paid jobs and that money should be given to the real workers who actually count and get the job done.

          I: In the long run, driverless is cheaper, far more efficient and let's not forget the Workers Comp and Liability cost savings on top of everything else. This is something that's already happening elsewhere and working, even if it's in it's infancy. Driving is likely to be one of those jobs that will disappear in the next 20 years alongside factory workers, etc. Progression has a way of doing that.

          I'm sure management is a big part of the problem and not deserving of a payrise for a failing system but if they were held accountable and had payrises attached to performance, things would be different.

          If they had no management, things would be worse. No question.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 19:16
          @imurgod:

          except as someone else posted, train drivers get 12 sick days, tons of leave and far too much pay and you basically can't fire them if they're rubbish

          99: So what if they get 12 sick days and other benefits. They are underpaid for what they do.

          I: Ok then, remove the leave, additional benefits and treat them like any other worker, including the ability to fire them easily for breaches and non-performance.

          99: yet again you are talking nonsense. They are working one day overtime EVERY week. Yet again you are talking absolute nonsense, how is working 50 hours a week non performance ?

          ~~

          I: I: In the long run, driverless is cheaper, far more efficient and let's not forget the Workers Comp and Liability cost savings on top of everything else

          99: No its not. I already gave you the example of OPAL which costs 4-5x more than what it cost to do the same thing with real people.

          You really have no clue how these things work in the real world nor do you even try and learn.

          The NSW gov paid over $300M for OPAL to get them to write the software, buy and configure the machines. Since then they continue to PAY $80M to keep the software running.

          WIth driverless trains you would have to REPLACE EVERY SINGLE TRAIN on the network with new trains that have been setup for driverless. Each train costs $4-$5M EACH. Thats a bill of over $2B.

          THe cost of software for driveless trains would be at least the same as OPAL or maybe more. $80M A YEAR.

          Thats $80M, thats more than 4x the cost of these drivers.

          So to save paying a few million every year to these people you have the brilliant idea of REPLACING every single train on the network, plus paying $100M a year for the software.

          Can you please tell me, where the saving is ?

          The drivers cost less than $50M a year….do the maths.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 19:18

          @imurgod:

          I: f they had no management, things would be worse. No question.

          99: WTF ?

          I: In the long run, driverless is cheaper, far more efficient and let's not forget the Workers Comp and Liability cost savings on top of everything else.

          99: Did you bother to read the article for the cost of OPAL ?

          Do you understand the YEARLY contract for the software is 80$M ? EVERY YEAR ?

          Thats for lousy ticket machines, do you really think driverless will be free after you buy once ?

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 19:20

          @ninetyNineCents:

          Man, I'm just tired of your narrow opinions. We're going in circles because you can't see past your won nose.

          To see what I'm saying requires foresight and the ability to see beyond next year.

          Money spent now is money saved in the future.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 19:25

          @ninetyNineCents:
          So cost can't be renegotiated? OPAL is a driverless system is it? That's comparing apples to ballons.

          Even you must know that having no leadership is a calamity, right?

          Lastly, everything has a a cost. Most businesses have software costs yet still make money.

          Should it be free? Drivers cost $50M. A better solution costs $80M. Software gets better and competition makes it cheaper in some cases. Drivers don't get better and they will want pay rises in the future.

          Maybe it's best to ask you what your solution is. I don't have one but then I'm dumb and you're smart.

          So let's go; what is your big idea to solve the issue?

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 19:33
          -1

          @imurgod:

          I: So cost can't be renegotiated? OPAL is a driverless system is it? That's comparing apples to ballons

          99: A ticketing system is considerably simpler than a driverless system. What makes you think anyone selling a driverless system will charge LESS when they see what the OPAL guys got ?

          ~~~

          I: Even you must know that having no leadership is a calamity, right?

          99: I never said the trains shoudl have no leadership. If you really believe i did, quote my exact words here …

          I did say they shoudlnt have the high wages they receive, i never said the leadership positions should be eliminated.

          ~~

          I: Lastly, everything has a a cost. Most businesses have software costs yet still make money.

          99: Thats right but theres a big difference between shrink wrap software and contracted software for large corps.

          I suggest you go look at the cost of IBM Websphere where YOU PAY TENS OF THOUSANDS PER CPU for a license PER YEAR per PRODUCT that you select.

          I could show you many other similar enterprise software solutions…

          ~~

          I: Should it be free?

          99: WTF, Im not the one selling the software, i cant offer for free whats not mine. Im simply telling you how the real world works.

          ~

          I: Maybe it's best to ask you what your solution is. I don't have one but then I'm dumb and you're smart.

          So let's go; what is your big idea to solve the issue?

          99: Thats easy, stop immigration at these insane levels until Sydney and other big cities are ready for it. Thats a start.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 19:37

          @imurgod:

          I: Man, I'm just tired of your narrow opinions. We're going in circles because you can't see past your won nose.

          To see what I'm saying requires foresight and the ability to see beyond next year.

          Money spent now is money saved in the future.

          99: No the problem is you have no concept of how software is costed at the enterprise level. You havent costed the cost of switching to a driverless system.

          I already explained every single train would need to be replaced with new driverless ready trains. This is the same problem with cars. When driverless cars come, it will be cheaper to buy them than refit old cars, because of the shear number of sensors and wiring and more that needs to be fitted.

          Please tell me, how much it will cost for driverless trains. I want to see all the big figures for major components. Anything over $10M a year must be itemised.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 19:37

          @ninetyNineCents:
          I: Maybe it's best to ask you what your solution is. I don't have one but then I'm dumb and you're smart.

          So let's go; what is your big idea to solve the issue?

          99: Thats easy, stop immigration at these insane levels until Sydney and other big cities are ready for it. Thats a start.

          And there it is - Now I know where you're going.

          Apologies, I'm not a xenophobe and I firmly believe that it is immigrants made this country great.

          I'll end this discussion now because you and I are clearly travelling on different trains.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 19:40

          @imurgod:

          I: Apologies, I'm not a xenophobe and I firmly believe that it is immigrants made this country great.

          99: Thats not xenophobia, you should check a dictionary and not use words that you dont know what they mean. I never said i hated immigrants, i said suydney is full.

          Sydney transport public and roads are at capacity. Surely you can understand that.

          Its a bed, they work great for 1 or 2 people, but you cant put 4 or 5 or 10 in one that doesnt work.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 20:01

          @imurgod:

          start reading this and look at the all the components of a driverless system… its not free, its a very big number.

          http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2016/12/alstom-supplied-s…

          The MTR South Island Line (SIL) in Hong Kong for which Alstom supplied the signalling system, track works, overhead line electrification, as well as traction and TCMS[1] through three separate contracts[2], entered revenue service today. SIL is the first urban metro line run by Fully Automatic Operation (FAO) in Hong Kong.

          http://www.hongkongextras.com/trainservices.html

          MTR has purchased ten 3-carriage trains for the line at a cost of HK$540 million from Changchun Railway Vehicles Company, a subsidiary of China CNR Corporation

          To keep this simple $540HK = $80M for ten 3 carriage trains. let me remind you how small their trains are compared to ours with the double decker etc.

          Sydney must have a lot more than 10 sets of trains, so that at least 1B to replace all our trains with these driverless. Now sydney is a much larger netrwork than HK, how much do you think it would cost to replace all the signals and sensors on all that track and hundreds of stations ?

          Its a VERY BIG NUMBER…

          https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/09/the-unique…

          http://www.ejinsight.com/20150327-test-runs-to-begin-on-driv…

          Ken Wong, a project manger for the South Island Line, was quoted as saying each of the new train costs HK$54 million which is about ten to 20 percent higher than existing trains, as the new vehicles are more technically advanced.

          …

          While there will be no drivers onboard the trains, CCTVs will be used to monitor the compartments.

          SO not only is there the software contract, there are still humans but instead of calling them drivers theres a big fancy system for watchers to watch the train.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 20:08

          @ninetyNineCents: I know what it means and I know what bigot means too.

          Australia is massive for 20M people.

          Stop spouting rubbish.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 20:10

          @imurgod:

          I: I know what bigot means too.

          99: I never used the word or anything remotely close. Use FIND in your browser and see for yourself.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 20:29

          @ninetyNineCents: I can't. I'm busy looking for a pointy white hat online so I can fit your perfect world.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 20:31

          @imurgod:

          What a pathetic racist you are, inventing lies and other nonsense, simply because someone has proven you to be childish and unaware of how the real world works and real world costs.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 20:35

          @ninetyNineCents: hey, you said it. I didn't make it up.

          Don't be a coward. You showed your colours.

          I'll bet you have a Southern Cross tattoo.

        • ninetyNineCents on 22/01/2018 - 08:27

          @imurgod:

          I never mentioned race EVER, you did, that makes you the racist. Not once have you shared a quote to back your position, while i have shared quite a few. That shows who is the small minded person with limited abilities and is also too simple to admit they dont know what they are talking about.

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 08:51

          @ninetyNineCents: You shared your ill-informed opinions and drivel, nothing more. You also said we should stop immigration because there's no room, even though there's ample room in Australia.

          That's ok. I'm not even mad at you. In fact, I find you quite amusing.
          I didn't know people like you still existed.

          Have a lovely day!

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 09:45

          @imurgod:

          I: You shared your ill-informed opinions and drivel, nothing more

          99: My opinions are not ill informed i have shared multiple sources for my facts and figures.

          If you want the definition of nonsense, you should look in a mirror. Nothing you have said has been backed with cold hard facts from a website.

          Im still waiting for your costing for a driverless train software package. Here is a clue you wont find it on the app store or google play.

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 10:58

          @ninetyNineCents: Uh huh.. It's common knowledge that dumb people don't know they're dumb. You should think about that before you utter complete nonsense.

          Thanks for making us all laugh though. Keep those blinkers on otherwise you might make sense and that's just not you, is it?

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 10:59

          @imurgod:

          I: ou should think about that before you utter complete nonsense.

          99: that means a lot from the person who cant back a single of their statements with proof.

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 13:01

          @ninetyNineCents: you've proved you can't construct a coherent sentence. That's enough for me. I don't generally entertain racists such as yourself with Southern Cross tramp stamps

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 13:48

          @imurgod:

          Youre the one who contruct a sentence, go back and look at your previous replies, they are filled with 2 and 3 word attempts.

          You are the racist…you broad it up and continue to mention it. I ha ve never used the word or anything remotely like that.

          The problem is you are lets be nice, too simple…

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 14:01

          @ninetyNineCents: see? You can't even respond coherently. I don't understand anything you just wrote?

          Broad?

          The problem is you are let's be nice?

          ??? What??

          Anyhow. Let's be done with this.

          Progress is necessary and cost isn't the factor at all. It will happen and this is a job that needs to go for so many reasons. Nothing you can do will stop that.

          The train incident that's in the news right now will tell you that the safety record is not what you've told us it is.

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 14:08

          @imurgod:

          brought eheh not sure how that happened.

          ~~

          I: Progress is necessary and cost isn't the factor at all.

          99: What utter nonsense, cost is always a major consideration. Only a pure idiot would say they never consider cost when making decision.

          Let me repeat, what kind of fool spends tens of billions to avoid paying at most $10M in wages to a few thosuand staff ?

          I: It will happen and this is a job that needs to go for so many reasons. Nothing you can do will stop that.

          99: Dont change the subject …

          We arent discussing progress or change, we are discussing the train drivers and the topic of driverless trains.

          The problem is i showed multiple times that you simply have no clue about many things….

          You always dodge my questions with childish answers or complete ignore the cost of anything because you obviously cant do basic maths.

          ~

          I: The train incident that's in the news right now will tell you that the safety record is not what you've told us it is.

          99: Whatever happened to proof ?

          It hasnt been estab lished who is at fault, might be mechanical, driver. the only thing we do know is we dont know what caused the accident.

          Thats how adults approach these types of things, again ONLY a first class idiot would jump to conclusions on ZERO evidence. But then again we have already seen you say things and been unable to back any of your claims with evidence.

        • imurgod on 24/01/2018 - 09:28

          @ninetyNineCents: I'm bored with you and your claiming rubbish that isn't real. Go away now. I can't keep going in circles. You simply want to argue regardless of facts so I'll leave you in your own fantasy world. It's like dealing with a dishonest child.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 10:27

          @imurgod:

          I: I'm bored with you and your claiming rubbish that isn't real.

          99: Thats the problem, its not real, and you cant show a single example from real sources, because you have no clue.

          Its a bit like your moniker, arrogantly pretending you are a god which is pathetic considering gods are fairy tales.

          ~~

          I: It's like dealing with a dishonest child.

          99: Says the person who doesnt know how to back their claims with facts. YOu can barely write a complete sentence.

          Go read a few scientific or professional papers, y9ou might learn how they back their claims with facts and proofs, not stupid insults like what you continue to do.

        • imurgod on 24/01/2018 - 10:57

          @ninetyNineCents: oh the irony of your comment is comical.

          I wish you well but also feel a little sorry for you since you have such an unrealistic view of the world.

          Have a great day.

          P.s. I suggest you google the meaning of the word irony so you don't respond off topic as you tend to do.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 12:56

          @imurgod:

          I: I wish you well but also feel a little sorry for you since you have such an unrealistic view of the world.

          99: Congratulations, we can all see you can only write up 5 yo standard childish replies. Costs of things, abilities of AI and so were too hard for you too prove. Googling for a link that matches your thoughts and claims was just too difficult. Maybe one day you will learn how to do those things, but today isnt that day.

        • imurgod on 24/01/2018 - 20:02

          @ninetyNineCents: Take the hint, mate. Don't be that guy. You're already struggling.

          Common sense doesn't have a link unfortunately or I would have definitely referred you to it.

          You simply have zero idea.

          I'll leave you with 3 tips to help you:

          1. AI is ALREADY IN EFFECT AND WORKING. Buses, trains, cars - it's happening right now… today…. this second… as you read this…
          2. Upgrading ALWAYS costs money. You buy an upgraded TV, it's more expensive, you buy a better car… guess what? more expensive… you replace an old, flawed system of having people driving trains when AI can do it better… you figure the rest out.
          3. Never ask others to do research for you. It's a sign of laziness. Probably why there's those who are successful and those who drive trains.

          I'd laugh but I am really worried for you. You turned this into a name calling session as soon as your pathetic, made-up argument was shot down by facts and now you're just defeated and trying to drag me down to your ill-informed level.

          Let it go. Nothing you say is going to make real life change for you. Nothing is going to stop progression and make us go back to whatever year you felt was good for humanity. The vote is "yes", kids aren't in coal mines anymore, the Earth isn't flat, and transport is already on it's way to being AI controlled the world over.

          Instead of hating, why not learn about how the AI actually works? It's absolutely fascinating.
          After all, learning and enlightenment are key to not being a xenophobe.

          If you need a job when these pointless jobs for failures in life are gone, let me know. I think I might need a jester.

        • ninetyNineCents on 25/01/2018 - 14:34

          @imurgod:

          I: Instead of hating, why not learn about how the AI actually works?

          99: When did i say i hate AI ? Naturally considering its another of your invented bullshits, you can quote. Please search my replies or even this entire page for the word "hate" and similar words and you wont find me ever saying that because i havent.

          I was simply pointing out that AI is very limited today in its abilities. If you cant see the limits well thats sad.

          ~

          I: After all, learning and enlightenment are key to not being a xenophobe.

          99: That means a lot from someone who is so ill informed they cant share a single qiuote for any of their points.

          ~

          I: If you need a job when these pointless jobs for failures in life are gone, let me know. I think I might need a jester.

          99: You obviously are a fool, you have no idea how to provide proof for an argument. You only know how to demand peop[le accept your popint of view, you cant actually share any facts from qualified and other observers. Its miracle you can feed yourself.

        • ninetyNineCents on 25/01/2018 - 14:36

          @imurgod:

          I: Upgrading ALWAYS costs money. You buy an upgraded TV, it's more expensive, you buy a better car… guess what? more expensive… you replace an old, flawed system of having people driving trains when AI can do it better… you figure the rest out.

          99: And to upgrade to driverless trains, you WOULD NEED TO STOP THE ENTIRE TRAIN SYSTEM FOR AT LEAST A YEAR, while sensors are placed throughout the entire system, and other preparations to ALL lines are made, such as complete fencing. There are so many other limitations but what wyoud you know you have no idea what they are.

          It would cost over a $100B aswell, so please tell me where are you going to get $100B ?

          What are you going to tell everyone in Sydney when you CLOSE down all the lines ?

        • imurgod on 26/01/2018 - 09:20

          @ninetyNineCents: dance, jester, dance…. Boring

        • imurgod on 26/01/2018 - 09:25

          @ninetyNineCents: true. Let's never do anything to improve the city so nobody is inconvenienced.

          I mean they're not putting in light rail and closing George Street or anything… Oh and here's an idea just off the top of my head; could it be implemented bit by bit?

          I must be a genius.

          Can you see how you don't have any ability to think? You're a whiner, not a solution person. Hence why you're where you are.

          I wonder how we got to here from horse drawn carriages and steam trains. I suppose you think it was by magic lol.

          Clown.

        • ninetyNineCents on 29/01/2018 - 10:47

          @imurgod:

          I: true. Let's never do anything to improve the city so nobody is inconvenienced.

          99: How about you be honest and stop making up bullshit. I never said we shouldnt improve anything, thats why you cant quote me on that.

          You are childish, you keep on lying and inventing things that i have never said. I was however trying to be responsible and show something closr to the truth about cost and other factors.

          ~

          I: I mean they're not putting in light rail and closing George Street or anything… Oh and here's an idea just off the top of my head; could it be implemented bit by bit?

          99: When did i discuss or even mention George St or an opinion on that matter ?

          What is wrong with you that you keep inventing things that i have never mentioned ?

          ~

          I: Can you see how you don't have any ability to think? You're a whiner, not a solution person. Hence why you're where you are.

          99: You are the one who cant think. FOr starters you dont have any remote concept of honesty. You keep inventing words that i have never said.

          Show me where i mentioned a single word on George st …. How can you think its fair to invent ideas or comments and put words in amnother persons mouth when they have never mentioned that topic or subject ?

          How would you like it if you were charged or slandered for something you never said ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 29/01/2018 - 11:39

          @imurgod:

          I: true. Let's never do anything to improve the city so nobody is inconvenienced.

          99: You didnt answer my question from the other day.

          How will the city manage when all train lines are shutdown for months maybe years while all lines are upgraded with all necessary sensors and other related equipment ?

          Please lets talk like adults and answer real questions instead of your childish nonsense without any cold hard facts.

        • imurgod on 29/01/2018 - 13:42
          -1

          @ninetyNineCents: You are a pro at completely missing the point. Do you even read what you type?

          When you can converse like an adult, I'll treat you like one. For now, you're focused on making things up and not actually reading/comprehending what I'm saying, hence your paranoia is at insane levels.

          You get that I'm drawing comparisons and not quoting you, right?

          Based on your comments to others on this very thread as well as myself, it's clear that you get extremely upset and type in a fit of rage rather than digest what people say and respond accordingly. It's why people far smarter than me are simply dismissing your comments as complete drivel and not responding which, incidentally, is what I'll be doing following this final wasted comment to you.

          Take a breath, calm down. It's merely a discussion upon which we have a difference on opinion. The reality is that neither of us will have any influence on the outcome - progress WILL happen regardless of cost or collateral damage to jobs for those who are mostly unskilled.

          They can always find another job somewhere else if they really want to work instead of have things handed to them because they feel a sense of entitlement.

        • ninetyNineCents on 29/01/2018 - 14:47

          @imurgod:

          I: You are a pro at completely missing the point. Do you even read what you type?

          When you can converse like an adult, I'll treat you like one. For now, you're focused on making things up and not actually reading/comprehending what I'm saying, hence your paranoia is at insane levels.

          99: No you miss the point, you continue inventing bullshit as your evidence. I have said many things and enough times i have shared links and extrapolated costs for items, none . of which you have done.

          ~

          I: Based on your comments to others on this very thread as well as myself, it's clear that you get extremely upset and type in a fit of rage rather than digest what people say and respond accordingly. I

          99: here we go again, back to your only strength attacking me.

          Typical loser, ad hom attacks, attack the messenger and not the message.

  • VBO on 18/01/2018 - 19:02
    +3

    Self-driving public transport is the solution.

    • OzzyOzbourne on 18/01/2018 - 19:27
      +1

      The unions will push for laws to prevent that or at least slow its progress.

    • liquid metal on 18/01/2018 - 19:33
      +1

      It's gonna take several decades in Sydney.

    • imurgod on 20/01/2018 - 09:57

      It's already happening. You'll see it popping up very soon.

    • ninetyNineCents on 20/01/2018 - 18:11
      +2

      Self driving trains will cost MORE than paying the human drivers.

      Take a look at OPAL. The government pays over $80 a year JUST FOR THE SOFTWARE CONTRACT. The cost of all those machines, cameras and so on brings this to over $100M a year.

      Given there are 300 or so train stations in the network, and the vast majority are minor, there is no way the government spent $100M on ticket sellers.

      Just try doing the maths, $100M / 300 stations = 350k per station. Thats about 3 ticket sellers per station. Only stations like Town Hall or Parammatta ever had more than 3 sellers, most stations had at most 1 if that.

      https://www.itnews.com.au/news/nsw-pours-15m-more-into-opal-…

      • imurgod on 20/01/2018 - 20:49

        Arguably safer though. Check what Mercedes has done with driverless buses in Rotterdam.

        • ninetyNineCents on 20/01/2018 - 21:39

          Thats bollocks. Safety is a nonissue when you have almost perfect records of safety. The chances of death on either system must be 1 in 10 with 8 or 10 zeros or maybe more.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 00:28

          @ninetyNineCents: it isn't just death though, is it? Eliminating delays, 100% safety record, immediate response to changes and also… No strikes or whining about money or conditions! AI is capable of learning. It's pretty amazing.

          Also, in the long run, driverless is far more cost effective in general.

          You mentioned opal which I agree is the typical rubbish solution we come to expect from a government that gave us the NBN, but there's better and cheaper ways to do it.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 16:37

          @imurgod:

          I: it isn't just death though, is it?

          99: What , that isnt a complete sentence; Saying one is better than the other when the deaths per km of travel is 1 in 20 zeroes is a non argument.


          I: Eliminating delays, 

99: What delays ? 

Try and write complete sentences and back your point of view with examples, how one is better than the other. 2 word sdoesnt cut it.

~

I: 100% safety record,

99: Wow im really worried that 5 people in 30- 40 years have died on sydney trains with human drivers. Non issue.

~

I: immediate response to changes and also…

99: WRONG. Driverless trains can only operate to the scenarios they have been programmed making them LESS flexible. It takes months to put in a change in software like this.

Computers are dumb they can only do what they have been told, they arent clever and they dont invent solutions.

You are complete wrong about this.

~

I: You mentioned opal which I agree is the typical rubbish solution we come to expect from a government that gave us the NBN, but there's better and cheaper ways to do it.

99:  WTF ?

NBN is federal, Opal is state. You do know the difference between the two ...

If the NSW state gov screwed up Opal what makes you think they wont do an even worse job with driverless trains ?

It would be cheaper to pay all drivers 3x than pay for driverless trains.

Just look at the opal example i gave, the new opal costs at the VERY LEAST 3x more what old ticket collextors cost. THe government took something that cost perhaps $20M in wages and replaced it with something that cost $100. DO you want me to also point out the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS the gov paid to develop the OPAL system ?

The figures i shared are for maintenance or running the system, they didnt include the 300-400MILLION the development cost.

          I: but there's better and cheaper ways to do it.

          99: How about you tell us how or is that too much trouble for you ?

          Everytying so easy and yet you can barely string a sentence with more than 10 words.

          Driverless trains are not easy and even if they were, the software contract will cost MORE than just paying the drivers. MANY times more.

          WRong multiple times. NBN is a federal government thing, OPAL is state. How dumb are you dont you know the difference betwe

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 19:12

          @ninetyNineCents:

          I don't even know where to start replying to this.

          You think 100% safety no good because a few deaths and a few ruined families is fine.

          You think AI can't learn (do you live in 1987?!)- Make no mistake about this - AI can learn and you are completely wrong here and any reading you would have done here would lead you to the interesting prospect of singularity spoken about by the likes of Elon Musk, Bill Gates and Stephen Hawking. I know, I know, they're morons and you're smarter. Fair Call.

          You think there are no delays on trains. Delays are common, or at least "were" not too long ago. I don't catch PT anymore but I have ears and I know people who do.

          Opal screw up doesn't amount to anything regardless - software solutions are a cheap and getting cheaper and better every day…. who screwed it up is irrelevant; my comment was a pure mistake due to being tired and, to be honest, I was just trying to agree with something in your nonsensical ranting. I'll bet you feel pretty darn smart to know something that anyone with a phone could look up in 1 second. Kudos to you, sir!

          I apologise if my replies to you aren't long enough for you but I simply believe that firstly, you might not comprehend them and secondly, you seem to just want to disagree with everything I say regardless or pick and choose irrelevant bits to argue. I fear that if I provided you with 200,000 words, you'd pick a misspelling to throw out the whole argument. Here's the real deal, though. I could fashion a decent, researched reply to a guy on a forum with a low IQ or I can make some money. What do you think I chose?

          You sink to calling me all kinds of names and make things personal. That shows your intellect… let me assure you, I'm far from dumb and pretty successful by any standard. Then again, I'm sure you'll dismiss that by saying I'm just dumb and extremely lucky over and over again.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 19:27

          @imurgod:

          I: You think 100% safety no good because a few deaths and a few ruined families is fine.

          99: I never said that. I said the current train system has a very good record.

          If you want to save lives there are much better ways to spend money.

          ~

          I: You think AI can't learn (do you live in 1987?!)- Make no mistake about this - AI can learn and you are completely wrong here

          99: Do you know what happens when AI or anyone makes mistakes ?

          Life isnt a game, you dont get second changes to try again, and load from a save game point.

          ~~

          I: and any reading you would have done here would lead you to the interesting prospect of singularity spoken about by the likes of Elon Musk, Bill Gates and Stephen Hawking. I know, I know, they're morons and you're smarter. Fair Call.

          99: You are living in a dream world, the AI we have today the same AI for our driverless trains is basically dumb.

          The problem is you dont know what you are talking about and you have no idea what AI is and its limits.

          ~~

          I: Opal screw up doesn't amount to anything regardless - software solutions are a cheap and getting cheaper and better every day…

          99: Thats a lie, you obviously have no idea how software contracts for b ig companies and the government go.

          The cost NEVER goes down, thats why the contract for the NEXT 15 years for OPAL went up to 1.2B.

          The contracting firms know they can milk the government thats why they do.

          ~~~

          I: I fear that if I provided you with 200,000 words, you'd pick a misspelling to throw out the whole argument.

          99: Thats not true, all im saying is if you claim something you have to provide evidence. You cant just say something and pretend its true.

          I showed you the cost of opal, thats a fact, your claim of software getting cheaper is bullshit. The sofware you buy as an individual is on a completely different scale to the software big corps and the gov buy.

          Oracle the big fancy database is more expensive than ever. They charge TENS OF THOUSANSD per CPU. Theres a big difference between buying apps for your phone and corporate software.

          ~~

          I: You sink to calling me all kinds of names and make things personal.

          99: Thats not true. You were dishonest to pretend things that simply are untrue in the real world. If you dont believe me about th fcost of contracts for governments go do a little research and see how they are.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 19:28

          @imurgod:

          I: Here's the real deal, though. I could fashion a decent, researched reply to a guy on a forum with a low IQ or I can make some money. What do you think I chose?

          99: No, next time you make a claim, try googling for 30secs and see if its true.

          For example go find the initial and continued support cost of the driverless systems in another city that has them.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 19:32

          @ninetyNineCents:
          Wow. I just can't sink to your level.

          You're simply just making things up and comparing AI in videogames to actual AI that's used in driverless cars… massive difference.

          I simply can't compete with you. I just have to concede and say that you're right because anything else would require you to do research or at least know how things work in real life and sorry to say, you just don't.

          I hope it all works out for you and we start regressing to make you happy.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 19:42

          @imurgod:

          I: You're simply just making things up and comparing AI in videogames to actual AI that's used in driverless cars… massive difference.

          99: I never said that at all. I said you dont understand that AI cant just be given a train to drive , because mistakes in the real world cost lives and money. You cant practice in real life like a video game.

          You need to learn how to read.

          AI is really dumb, if you dont believe me, go ask google a few questions that wouldnt have cooked answers and see where that get you.

          GO on ask google something more basic than what is 1+1 or the capital of Australia.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 20:09

          @ninetyNineCents: yeah, driverless vehicles dont use Google or anything remotely like it.

          You're simple if you think that.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 20:12

          @imurgod:

          I never said that i was simply pointing out how simple AI is today and will be for a few years.

          You are the one who thinks AI knows everything and good enough to replace humans, its not, and its not remotely close.

          Again you have no idea how computers or AI work, just like you had no idea of "driverless system costs".

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 20:28

          @ninetyNineCents: cool. Seems you know more than me despite my knowledge on the subject and you thinking they put Google and video games into trains.

          Cool story.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 20:33

          @imurgod:

          again i never said Google AI is or should be used on trains. Thats not how software works in any form.

          Its obvious you dont know how to read, then again thats hardly surprising when you have proven you dont understand enterprise software costs, contracts.

        • imurgod on 21/01/2018 - 20:39

          @ninetyNineCents: Awww I've upset you.

          My bad.

          I don't know anything! Not even how to pour fuel on crosses!

        • ninetyNineCents on 22/01/2018 - 08:25

          @imurgod:

          How grown up of you. You cant champion your argument with facts and quotes, so you resort the only thing you are capable of, with your limited intellect, calling people names like a 5 yo.

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 08:53

          @ninetyNineCents: says the person who resorted to name calling almost immediately because nobody agreed with his narrow, ill-informed view of the world.

          Mate, I'll bet you're a bucket of fun at parties.

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 08:59
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents:

          I just want to help you out so you don't just type rubbish in future and make more of a fool of yourself.

          You said that AI is not good enough to replace humans, not even close.

          I know I'll have to reference your post because you'll try to twist it so:

          99: I never said that i was simply pointing out how simple AI is today and will be for a few years.
          You are the one who thinks AI knows everything and good enough to replace humans, its not, and its not remotely close.
          Again you have no idea how computers or AI work, just like you had no idea of "driverless system costs".

          Here is a list of trains that are currently driverless.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_…

          You're welcome.

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 10:00

          @imurgod:

          I: Here is a list of trains that are currently driverless.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_…

          99: Where are the prices ? Are you that stupid you dont understand the concept of cost ?

          You dont just buy a camera or a compiuter and your system train is converted. Its a lot more complicated than that. Its also the same reason why current cars will never be converted because the cost of adding sensors in all the right places is more than buying a planned car that includes these features.

          You will need to replace all trains, thats why the new HK driverless line below also had to buy new carriages.

          https://www.curbed.com/2017/1/3/14154964/driverless-train-ho…

          The $2.18 billion new line in Hong Kong’s Southern District will see 170,000 passengers per day traveling the 4.3-mile, four-station route. The 10 three-car trains were designed using Chinese-developed autonomous technology and manufactured by CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles in Hong Kong

          Does nearly $3B AUD sound cheap for a 6km worth of track ? Tahts even MORE expensive per km than the new metro line…\

          At 500M per km which matches the cost of the HK system it would cost OVER $150B to driverless train the entire sydney network maybe more.

          Read the article for examples of the limits and costs of preparing a track for driverless systems. For example you cant mix driverless and other trains because the compiuters running the system assume total control of the line in their memory simulation. THey dont have sensors and the software cant handle other human trains not under their control.

          https://www.ffg.at/sites/default/files/downloads/call/austri…

          The difference between urban
          rail and main line systems stems mainly from the
          fact that urban rail systems usually operate on a closed
          railway network (i.e. there aren’t any level crossings
          and the tracks are enclosed and used exclusively by
          trains that belong to the urban rail operator). Also, the
          rail topology is much simpler in urban rail.

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 10:56

          @ninetyNineCents: Wow, you're an interesting specimen.
          By your way of thinking, we should just use a horse and carriage since it's cheaper than trains!
          Every upgrade costs money but it better in the long run!! Which cave do you live in?

          All of your ramblings are pointless and have no actual relevance to anything except some fictitious cost scale that you've decided to make up.

          I think I'll just leave you fashion your tin foil hat now. There's no point continuing to give you points to miss.

          Lets never progress so you're not upset.

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 10:58

          @imurgod:

          I: Wow, you're an interesting specimen.
          By your way of thinking, we should just use a horse and carriage since it's cheaper than trains!

          99: Yet again you are showin gyour dishonest and stupidity. Im simply pointing out the REAL cost of things like how responsible adults make decisions unlike your total bullshit based on lies and the ramblings of someone with no clue.

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 13:04

          @ninetyNineCents: uh huh. I love the way you respond to things that aren't there. I can only deduce that you can't read and that's why you're always off point.

          Here's another thing to consider, nobody agrees with you. That's a red flag.

          Enjoy being left behind in life.

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 13:49

          @imurgod:

          I: uh huh. I love the way you respond to things that aren't there. I can only deduce that you can't read and that's why you're always off point

          99: Says the person whoi cant quote an example.

          Did you get passed 3rd grade ?

          Pathetic you dont grasp the concept of quoting your claims.

        • imurgod on 23/01/2018 - 13:57

          @ninetyNineCents: how's that safety record rubbish by the way after the recent incident that's all over the news?

          See? You've zero idea and just spout rubbish.

          You're a client at best.

  • shaiguy on 18/01/2018 - 19:48
    +7

    FYI Sydney Train Driver role description here:

    https://iworkfor.nsw.gov.au/job/qualified-train-driver-94818

    Some key aspects:
    - Total Remuneration Package:
    Upon completion of training, salary between $70,175 - $75,499.83 plus 9.5% superannuation, shift allowances and leave loading.
    •Competitive salary + 9.50% superannuation + shift allowances + leave loading
    •Permanent Full Time positions available within the Sydney Metropolitan area
    •Free travel on all NSW Government trains, buses and ferries

    • As a Train Driver, you'll be making a valued contribution to your community by making sure that our customers get to their destination safely and on time. In return, you will enjoy competitive benefits, including:

    •the potential to earn a six-figure salary (including 9.5% superannuation, shift allowances where applicable and leave loading), upon completion of training and once fully qualified
    •ongoing support, learning and career development opportunities
    •provision of a uniform
    •access to employee assistance program
    •discounted fitness membership with access to more than 400 gyms, pools and leisure centres
    •free travel on NSW Government trains, buses and ferries
    •the ability to be based at any of our 13 locations via the transfer process
    •maximum rostered shift length of 8hr 33 min and the capacity to swap shifts once you have completed training
    •transfer process available that will facilitate you relocating closer to home"

    And in the booklet:
    • Annual leave: 5 weeks per year (shift workers)
    • Long service leave: 2 months after 10 years of service
    • Maternity Leave: 14 weeks
    • Sick leave: 15 days per year

    One thing that it omits is the # of shifts/week or average hours.

    • liquid metal on 18/01/2018 - 20:19

      Two possibilities:

      We all aim to get similar conditions or that all get worse conditions so we're all on one level.

      We're either foolish or not. I know what I'd rather have.

    • supersabroso on 18/01/2018 - 21:50
      +1

      Remember that this is the absolute minimum salary that they will get. The one liner about "potential" to earn a 6 figure salary is far more realistic of their average pay. Yes, they will definitely get $100k+/year if they are willing to sacrifice half their weekends on top of their 5 days a week.

      Please, more people from the private industry come over and cherish this amazing job opportunity. The current lot clearly do not understand just how good they have it. To those people that say interstate drivers get more, I'd like to ask you why you live in Sydney and not whoop whoop when they offer more.

      • liquid metal on 19/01/2018 - 05:15
        +1

        Many of them move interstate.

        Why do they earn less here?

      • abb on 19/01/2018 - 09:39
        +1

        I'd like to ask you why you live in Sydney and not whoop whoop when they offer more.

        I'll bite. My job exists only in large cities. Sydney, Melbourne, and maybe Brisbane are likely the only places in Australia that have employment that aligns with my expertise.

        If you would like to bankroll me to start up a business in a regional area, please do. Bear in mind that we'll likely have no customers because, even though the internet has been commonplace for decades, a lot of people still like to meet face to face before entering into a contract for $10k - $xM of work.

        If there were a regional employer offering my line of work, nearby to a job opportunity that suits my partner, we would go there.

        Please, more people from the private industry come over and cherish this amazing job opportunity

        Are you a train driver? (if not, why not?)

        • supersabroso on 19/01/2018 - 12:58
          +1

          Yes but the other comment was referring to identical jobs that exist in the country too eg. Pilbara train driver's getting paid more.

          I'm not a train driver because I put in the hard yards and finished my university degree to get a better job. I still work ridiculous hours and lose 3/4 of my weekends but that allows me to put a roof over my family's head without relying on renting someone else's house. I have it great and I don't want them to ruin it for me.

          If I didn't have a university degree I'd opt to sit in a comfy air conditioned cab instead of slugging my guts out on weekends and nights, walking on loose hard rocks in the 43 degree heat anyday (life of a railway track worker). Train driver's have it great compared to the site worker's in the railway industry.

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