RTBU (Rail, Tram & Bus Union) Strike 29th Jan, What Say You?

[Deactivated] on 18/01/2018 - 10:32
Last edited 25/01/2018 - 16:34 by 2 other users

NSW RTBU (Rail Tram & Bus Union) is planning a strike on Monday 29th of Jan, the first day of school this year, and the first working day after the Australia Day long weekend.

Union tells Sydney commuters to stay at home during the strike.

The strike announced merely a week after they took sickie, blamed the timetable and the storm

"The trains will go to bed on Sunday night and won't come back out on Monday," union secretary said.

The union wants its workers to get a 6 per cent annual pay increase, but the Government is refusing to budge on its offer of a 2.5 per cent rise.

Update 1

Despite today's talks, the Rail, Tram and Bus Union (RTBU) NSW secretary Alex Claassens said that at this stage, the planned 24-hour strike would still go ahead on Monday, January 29.

Update 2

Possible pre-strike on Thursday 25th after failed 3% payrise negotiation

Confirmed pre-strike:
train services will be significantly reduced from Thursday 25 January and through the Australia Day long weekend.

Update 3

On Monday 29 January all stations will be closed and no trains will run across NSW.

Update 4

The planned industrial action impacting train services has been suspended by the Fair Work Commission.

Poll Options expired

  • 134
    They deserve 6% pay rise each year over the next 4 years, for what reason?
  • 586
    They already lucky with gov offer of 2.5% pay rise.
  • 21
    They should get 1% pay rise or pay freeze like some of us.
  • 78
    They better off live in a dream world with fairies and unicorns.
  • 42
    I don't care, I drive my $80k investment car.
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Comments

        • syousef on 20/01/2018 - 08:15

          @ss207k:

          They're not likely to get 6%. If they succeed I'd say 3.5 to 4 is where they'll end up.

      • frostman on 19/01/2018 - 16:04
        +3

        Compare Apples to Apples at least.

        NYC is one of the busiest cities in the world, it also has a high crime rate in the developed West.
        These are all factors into pay, not just hitting the Gear & Brake peddles.

        The Trains in Syd are easy, most of the time they run empty besides 9am and 5pm, and SYD is a relatively safer city to NYC

        • syousef on 19/01/2018 - 16:37
          +5

          Frostman you said: "I dont think anywhere in the world a Train Driver is on that sort of money, they must all be smoking something on their break". Do you want to shift the bars again, or too busy wiping egg off your face?

          Also if you think being a train driver in Sydney is an easy job, I don't know if we can have an adult conversation. Drivers often deal people committing suicide by jumping in front of the trains for a start. But aside from that running to this new timetable sounds anything but easy. I suggest you fire up a train simulator just to get a basic understanding of how running to even a timetable is not "easy".

        • sillyguy on 19/01/2018 - 18:10
          +8

          @syousef: train driver is a way easier job than bus driver or truck driver or tram driver. You sit in a comfy booth with plenty of view, got ur own lane and just have to press a few buttons. What’s hard about it? Tell me I am all ears

        • ss207k on 19/01/2018 - 19:40

          @syousef: I suggest the unions get realistic and make appropriate demands for the than stating management issue, timetable issue and demand a payrise which won't solve management issue or timetable issue.

          Demand for more people/resources, better and efficient system that so you can provide better services, safer operating environment, overlap between shift, all understandable.

        • sillyguy on 20/01/2018 - 10:22
          +7

          @syousef: what is with you with all these “adult convo, child view, educate”???

          If you don’t bother write up just a few lines to back ur opinions then it’s better to say nothing than saying stuff like it not being ur job to educate people.

          Yeah yeah astronault it’s all automated and pay well and fun why dont train drivers apply to be astronault then instead of whinging abt working condition.

          Btw don’t reply to this comment, it’s not ur job to discuss this with strangers

        • [Deactivated] on 20/01/2018 - 10:47

          @kaitok: The responsibility of train driver probably higher than bus or trams as it involves more passengers, and a delay from a train can disrupt the whole network, perfect example is the north shore line network (with only single line north and southbound between Berowra and Wynyard)

        • syousef on 20/01/2018 - 10:51
          -7

          @kaitok:

          If you oversimplify the responsibilities of an occupation to the point that you're talking about it with the naivete of a child, I will point it out.

          "Don't reply to this comment" or else what exactly? When did I tell you it was my "job" to discuss anything on this forum?

          Seriously. Grow up.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 16:56

          F: The Trains in Syd are easy, most of the time they run empty besides 9am and 5pm, and SYD is a relatively safer city to NYC

          99: The number of people in a train doesnt make it harder or easier to drive. THey dirve to a timetable. What kind of stupid comment is this to say.

    • ss207k on 19/01/2018 - 14:46

      Agree, not sure why you got a neg. atleast if the person who negged you could explain?

  • Bargaingeek on 19/01/2018 - 15:37
    +12

    Hong Kong, Dubai, France many other countries all embraced fully driverless trains so much more efficient less accidents. It’s time we fired all these overpaid train drivers who will close the door on ur face for their sadistic entertainment.

    Let’s go driverless

    • syousef on 19/01/2018 - 16:40
      +1

      We can't even get a ticketing system in without years of pain. Good luck with a project of that magnitude. It'll take quite a few years for the savings in driver's wages to start paying off.

      Also enjoy when people start clamouring to automate away your job.

      • sillyguy on 19/01/2018 - 18:14

        Well meaning we should have better programmers and data scientists

        • syousef on 19/01/2018 - 21:19
          -2

          Not everyone is suited to programming and data science. And a lot of those jobs have been outsourced.

        • syousef on 22/01/2018 - 16:51
          -1

          @syousef:

          Seriously? That gets a downvote? What's the offensive part? Pointing out that some people aren't suited to programming and data science? Or the fact that programming jobs have been outsourced? Ozbargain can be such a nutty place!!!

      • dealman on 22/01/2018 - 14:40

        Also enjoy when people start clamouring to automate away your job.

        That's happening whether you like it or not. So LEARN AND RELEARN constantly

        • syousef on 22/01/2018 - 16:52

          Learn and relearn what exactly? Back when the jobs were all factory work and automation you still had to do all of that. Machines change. We have had to learn and relearn for the last 30-40 years.

          The purpose of automation is to reduce the size of your workforce and replace people with machines that cost less. It is NOT to create more jobs.

        • dealman on 22/01/2018 - 17:31
          -1

          @syousef:

          learn programming then because teh machines are going to need someone to program them or find a different way to be useful

        • syousef on 22/01/2018 - 18:31
          -1

          [@dealman](/comment/5557965/redir

          Let me try again. Most of teh programming jobs are in teh India dude, bro. No better than learning teh manufacturing.

    • frostman on 21/01/2018 - 10:18
      +1

      It’s time we fired all these overpaid train drivers

      Damn right, $70K-70K salary with O/T + Stress/Sick/Long/Annual Leave, and they demand an 18K perm bonus over 4 years.
      They want to have Salaries of early Civil Engineers at $90K with a job that has 0 decision-making other than follow a track.
      Hell they can't even get that right when 30% of the time they stop at a station which was meant to be skipped. FMD

      edit: syousef must be a train driver or conductor LOLOLOL

      • viper8548 on 22/01/2018 - 03:58
        +1

        You'd be lucky to get near 60k as a grad engineer

        • syousef on 22/01/2018 - 18:35

          First, you'd average not lucky.

          Graduate Civil Engineer Salary. The average salary for a Graduate Civil Engineer is AU$58,148 per year. Is Graduate Civil Engineer your job title?
          Graduate Civil Engineer Salary (Australia) - PayScale
          https://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Graduate_Civil_Engi…

          Second, have you seen what nurses earn? Do we all want to be underpaid? Is it a race to the bottom?

      • syousef on 22/01/2018 - 18:39
        -1

        Zero decisions other than follow a track? I take it back. You don't have a child's understanding of the job. Even a child knows better. What's the bet you've never known a train driver.

        I'm a software developer by the way. I also work shifts to support the code I write. If something goes wrong I am one of a team that makes sure it's fixed. You'll be horrified to learn I actually make a decent living and am even paid a small amount on top for the shifts. In your world I should be kept in a data center and whipped when I ask for a pay rise.

        • sillyguy on 22/01/2018 - 19:19

          So you’re in India as per ur comment stating “most of teh programming jobs are in teh India dude, bro” above?

        • syousef on 23/01/2018 - 00:31

          @kaitok:

          No, but I'm in a job market where I've seen very good people lose a job and have to switch careers. I didn't say there were NO programming jobs. I said that the job market has shrunk and pay is not increasing or even decreasing in the field. Competition is fierce. I've seen hundreds of applicants for entry level positions and something like 40% of people with a masters degree. Any fool who could string together a few lines of code could get a job in the late 90s and early 2000s. Now it's just HARD.

          But admit it, you already knew what I was saying. Your "failure" to understand is intentional.

        • sillyguy on 23/01/2018 - 10:00

          @syousef:

          Very good programmers lost their jobs and had to switch careers? From what I've seen if one is a good programmer with a desire of continuous learning then he/she is set to have a stable career.

          "I've seen hundreds of applicants for entry level positions and something like 40% of people with a masters degree" -> Uhm masters (especially course work) or even PhD does not really have any advantage over a normal Bachelor in this field.

          "Any fool who could string together a few lines of code could get a job in the late 90s and early 2000s." -> that's the reason, those people were overpaid and inflated the market, now the market's come back to normal.

          "But admit it, you already knew what I was saying. Your "failure" to understand is intentional." -> yeah.

          Anyway, this whole strike thing all comes down to life experience, perspective, and culture background. From where I came from, strikes virtually don't exist, that's why I never support them, but totally understand if you do.

          Peace out, and drive safe.

        • syousef on 23/01/2018 - 11:36

          @kaitok:

          You're wrong about IT employment. Many bachelors degrees now allow you to continue on as masters student. So where you were competing against bacherlor grads for the top jobs now it is almost standard to expect a masters. It is not yet a full blown requirement but if almost half the grads you are up against have a masters you are at a disadvantage without one. I have known very good programmers with just highshcool behind them but it doesn't matter how good you are if you don't get your foot in the door.

          I am not a huge fan of strikes but when there is no other leverage as a last resort I totally understand their use. We can't continue with living coats rising like this (despite official inflation rate being low) and less than coat of living increases. Otherwise our standard of living will go to hell. As it is I belong to a generation that won't retire and then next won't own homes in the city.

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 11:39

          @kaitok:

          You dont even know how to quote properly. COmmon sense dictates that you include the persons name in front of their text so that everyone can reply with total confusion.

    • dcuksuop on 22/01/2018 - 00:09

      Sydney Metro will be driverless

  • sy8718 on 19/01/2018 - 16:31
    +8

    I think they have been already overpaid. The rule of marketing economy is, if you think you are underpaid, you can quit and find a better job, and of course employer can find another guy who can do your job and do not think the pay is unfair. To be honest if the employer can hire anyone else performing better than you with less budget, why not?

    And I believe a lot of people here are happy to replace them without requiring 6% increase.

    • syousef on 19/01/2018 - 16:41
      +1
      1. You can't walk in off the street and drive a train.
      2. You'd be the first to complain about the lack of trains if all the drivers found alternate jobs. You're lucky that the employment rate is where it is, because otherwise there would be even less drivers.
      • Tyrx on 19/01/2018 - 17:02
        +5

        He's talking about basic economics. While the attrition rate of train drivers is high, if the situation was as bad as the union states nobody would even be working or applying (which isn't true - demand is still high) for Sydney Trains because they would have all quit and moved to better opportunities in other states. The very fact that they're protesting in this manner indicates that their bargaining position would be relatively poor if it wasn't for their capability to hold the city hostage.

        • syousef on 19/01/2018 - 17:14
          +9

          Amazing that people suggest quitting jobs which would throw the system into chaos for months but a 1 day strike is "holding the city hostage".

      • sillyguy on 19/01/2018 - 18:17
        +3

        1. Yeah yeah you need 1 year training to be a train driver and earn whooping $70K base.

        2. Dun worry, now lots of people know and want to be a train driver, there will be plenty of them.

        3. If they could all find better job we wouldnt have this silly strike

        • syousef on 19/01/2018 - 21:17

          1. Whooping? I think you mean whoping. In any case $70K doesn't go far these days. Especially when you're working all hours.

          2. Yeah 3 year olds who watch Thomas The Tank Engine need not apply.

          3. If they all found a better job half the workforce would be stuck unable to get to and from work for a year.

        • frostman on 21/01/2018 - 10:22
          +1

          @syousef:

          3.If they all found a better job half the workforce would be stuck unable to get to and from work for a year

          Retarded statement of the YEAR

          Ok i'll rebuke that.

          If all Tailors/Dry Cleaners closed shop, no one would be able to wear a new suit or a business shirt anymore (including our Prime Minister). The big financial companies would need to conduct meetings in Jeans and TShirts as we've lost the Tailors given we pay them $15 to "take up the pants", and they demanded $80.

          Honestly bro, you've just shat yourself in this debate, time to go home and call it a day

        • syousef on 21/01/2018 - 12:14
          -5

          @frostman:

          Debate? Is that what we're having? I thought you were just throwing around childish inappropriate insults. "Retarded" and "shat yourself"? Really? I guess you have no friends with special needs children. You're in good company though. The US president also likes to ridicule special needs kids.

          And this is what you consider a debating win? In person do you fling poop too? Grow up, and only then can we have what any rational person would call a debate. You wouldn't recognise a debate if it bit you. No off to the naughty step. No icecream for you.

        • sillyguy on 22/01/2018 - 19:22
          +2

          @syousef:

          1. Not me bro, I am in control of how I go to work. Gud luck on 29th btw.
        • syousef on 23/01/2018 - 00:19

          @kaitok:

          I drive to work. We'll all still be affected as there will be a lot more people driving to work…and bicycling and whatever else.

    • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 16:58

      SY: I think they have been already overpaid. The rule of marketing economy is, if you think you are underpaid, you can quit and find a better job, and of course employer can find another guy who can do your job and do not think the pay is unfair. To be honest if the employer can hire anyone else performing better than you with less budget, why not?

      99: Can you please tell me where the NSW government is going to find 3000 people qualified and who know how to drive a NSW train ?

      I cant believ ethe stupidity of comments like yours that assume finding new drivers is simply a matter of putting an ad on facebook and the next week you have immediately replacements.

      ~

      SY: And I believe a lot of people here are happy to replace them without requiring 6% increase.

      99: A lot of people here are idiots with stupid suggestions and dont know how to do basic maths.

      • syousef on 23/01/2018 - 00:27
        -1

        It takes a year of training to become a train driver. What are you going to do in that year? Do you think that training is free? What happens when you train these people and they start getting experience and demanding pay rises too?

        A lot of people THINK they understand industrial relations and the economics of employment when in fact they have only a vague notion. Heaven help those people if they try to start a business or find themselves involved in recruitment/people management.

        • ninetyNineCents on 23/01/2018 - 09:43

          Sorry mate, i agree the training and driving is not easy and they deserve more for what they do.

          You are right a lot of people here are downright idiots, with their comments lets bring on driverless trains and have absolutely no concept of the cost of creating such a system and the running costs. As i have said before you would need to replace ALL trains n the network, and place thousands of sensors on the tracks. Tghat figure would by itself amount ti BILLIONS. Otehres here think you buy a camera and for a few dollars everything just works and thats it.

        • sy8718 on 24/01/2018 - 09:15

          For government, it is hard to find replacement. But for current train driver, if they lose this job, do you think they can find another job with similar pay? Of course not. So it is impossible that all train driver will quit the job. At most 1% or even less because they need this job to feed family.

          The current porblem is, the government cannot always say "yes" to all requirement from Union. "If you do not agree, we will organise strike" that's not discussion or argument, that's totally threaten.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 10:25

          @sy8718:

          SY8718: For government, it is hard to find replacement.

          99: And thats why you should ADD more services if you already didnt have enough trains to begin with.

          First you make sure you have sufficient staff and then you plan within those limits. Assuming indefinite overtime by a majority of staff is completely irresponsible and stupid.

          ~

          SY8718: But for current train driver, if they lose this job, do you think they can find another job with similar pay?

          99: Thats not the gov concern. The train drivers are big adults and if they want to bargain like that its their privilege, we live ina . free country.

          ~~

          Sy8718 The current porblem is, the government cannot always say "yes" to all requirement from Union. "If you do not agree, we will organise strike" that's not discussion or argument, that's totally threaten.

          99: No the current problem is you havent read all the troubles and concerns of the train drivers. They have been forced to work an extra day and extra hours for over a year. How would you like those conditions with absolutely no end in sight ?

          The gov screwed up when they expanded the timetable with more services in nov, and the drivers see this. THings arent getting better they are getting considerbly worse.

      • sy8718 on 24/01/2018 - 09:00

        So in your theory, if you cannot find replacement easily, then whatever they asked is reasonable? They should ask you to join the union, and you can just ask for 600% increase. The government cannot say no, otherwise yo can organise strike.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 10:32

          Sy8717: So in your theory, if you cannot find replacement easily, then whatever they asked is reasonable?

          99: They can ask that doesnt mean they receive.

          This concept is how a free market runs.

          ~

          Sy8718 They should ask you to join the union, and you can just ask for 600% increase.

          99: They are part of a union, and they are free to ask whatever they want. If they want to be stupid thats choice, they are free to ask whatever they wish if they think they can get it.

          It happens all the time, or havent you read the news and how much CEOs make ?

          Its not illegal for you to ask you rboss for a payrise, you may or may not get it, thats how life goes.

          ~

          Sy8717: The government cannot say no, otherwise yo can organise strike.

          99: Except they havent asked for 600%, they are asking only a few modest points, considerably less than their management many of which are on 200k+ or 500k+ and are total idiots.

          Thats how capitalism works, i suggest you look a bit harder.

        • sy8718 on 24/01/2018 - 16:38
          +1

          The problem is not how much they are asking now, but can they organise strike so easy? No matter they ask for 600% or 6%, as long as the gov do not agree, then they organise strike. Just like you are working for your boss, you tell your boss, if you do not increase my pay, then i will not come to work for 3 days, and you cannot fire me. You guess what your boss will say?

  • [Deactivated] on 19/01/2018 - 18:47
    +1

    I need to get to the airport from Wollongong on 30th so it's pretty bloody inconvenient for me. I have to pay $70 for a shuttle now. Any frikkin other day of the year and i wouldn't give a toss.

    • Schezwon on 19/01/2018 - 19:55

      Uber?

      • [Deactivated] on 20/01/2018 - 22:03

        Good friends come in handy sometimes.

    • sillyguy on 22/01/2018 - 19:24
      +1

      Use Uber bro, they only get paid $17 an hour, no overtime, no benefit and even have to maintain their own vehicles. Support them

      • [Deactivated] on 23/01/2018 - 16:36

        Wollongong to the airport in peak hour traffic…

  • Schezwon on 19/01/2018 - 19:54

    How about a real strike, when we have to compete with artificial intelligence, it's slowly gonna happen in the near future.

  • unelectric on 19/01/2018 - 20:24
    +5

    Who I do feel sorry for is bulk-billing GPs who worked their butts off through years and years of study only to have their wages frozen from 2013 until 2020 (while cost of operating a business & the cost of living hasn't stagnated). Hearing the train drivers cry about 6% per year makes me laugh.

    • paul_5666 on 20/01/2018 - 00:20
      +4

      Train drivers in NSW also make more than junior doctors working for NSW Health…

      • forrester on 20/01/2018 - 06:32
        +2

        And don't forget the amount of unpaid overtime some junior doctors work thanks to the culture in some hospitals…

      • CLoSeR on 20/01/2018 - 08:02
        -1

        Yeh, so do plumbers.

    • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 16:59
      -2

      P: Who I do feel sorry for is bulk-billing GPs who worked their butts off through years and years of study only to have their wages frozen from 2013 until 202

      99: Yeh there are thousands of doctors living in the gutter because they are underpaid.

      • unelectric on 21/01/2018 - 17:23

        I didn't make a judgement call about over or underpayment.

        • ninetyNineCents on 21/01/2018 - 17:27

          yes you did you mentioned them and pay

      • paul_5666 on 22/01/2018 - 07:30

        99, you've been talking about how costs of living has been rising and the 2.5% rise just isn't cutting it anymore… Then you turn around and ignore what doctors have to deal with?
        GPs have not even had their pay increase with inflation for years whilst their cost of doing business and their cost of living has been rising. That is a pay cut.
        Junior doctors have had a 2.5% rise like all public service workers but over 90% do unpaid overtime and earn lower base rates then train drivers. They also do rotating shift work and carry a big responsibility.

        • ninetyNineCents on 22/01/2018 - 08:15

          P: you've been talking about how costs of living has been rising and the 2.5% rise just isn't cutting it anymore… Then you turn around and ignore what doctors have to deal with?

          99: I never mentioned the cost of living in my comment, feel free to quote me.

          All im saying is doctors even interns make more than enough that they arent living in the gutter. They work hard and they get paid well.

          ~~

          P: GPs have not even had their pay increase with inflation for years whilst their cost of doing business and their cost of living has been rising. That is a pay cut.

          99: That may be true but they are also in the top 1% bracket which is my point.

          ~

          P: They also do rotating shift work and carry a big responsibility.

          99: Wrong most doctors are GPs with a little practice where they give out sick notes and green or yellow tablets for minor things, they dont do shift work at all.

        • paul_5666 on 22/01/2018 - 09:02

          @ninetyNineCents:
          Sorry, it might have been someone else that mentioned cost of living. In any case, what is your basis for saying a 6% rise is fair? Is it not that they are paid low compared to their cost of living?
          Please compare the base wage of an intern or even a registrar to that of a train driver in NSW. Hint: the latter earns more but the other has had more years of training and experience.
          Are train drivers living in the gutter? Do train drivers and other rail workers have protected time between shifts? Junior doctors in NSW have no protected time off between shifts and some work 16 hour plus shifts and are on call after that. Not to mention that overtime is often unpaid.

          99: Wrong most doctors are GPs with a little practice where they give out sick notes and green or yellow tablets for minor things, they dont do shift work at all.

          Firstly, that statement was in regards to junior doctors. That's how paragraphs work. Secondly, the number of junior doctors in Australia is nearly equal to the number of GPs. Junior doctors of course do shift work. Who do think staffs the hospitals after 5pm on week days, on weekends and public holidays?
          Thirdly, you obviously know nothing about being a GP. GPs in rural Australia often staff the local hospital too, where they are on call for up to a week and have to go to see patients at the hospital day or night. This is in addition to their practice during the day. You don't call this shift work? Or are you actually not aware of what doctors do outside your own narrow-minded and preconceived understanding of the world?

        • ninetyNineCents on 22/01/2018 - 09:47

          @paul_5666:

          P: In any case, what is your basis for saying a 6% rise is fair? Is it not that they are paid low compared to their cost of living?

          99: Thats not how you measure the fair pay for a role. Life is a bit more complicated than that. Many people in many roles are underpaid, eg dominos workers, its not that simple to just say they arent entitled to more than 2.5% pay increase.''

          ~~

          P: Please compare the base wage of an intern or even a registrar to that of a train driver in NSW. Hint: the latter earns more but the other has had more years of training and experience.

          99: Interns after they complete their time will get much better paying jobs, surgeons get 1/2 million a yr and they deserve it. You arent being fair in your comparison.

          ~~

          P: Are train drivers living in the gutter?

          99: I never said they were, again you are inventing things i have never said. Next time quote what i say instead of making shite up.

          ~~

          P: Do train drivers and other rail workers have protected time between shifts?

          99: I dont know what protected time is…plz explaim


          P: Firstly, that statement was in regards to junior doctors. That's how paragraphs work.

99: Wrong when you start a new paragraph you must establish your subjects, a new paragraph means you are starting fresh. If it was a continuation you should have continued the previous paragraph.

          P: Junior doctors of course do shift work. Who do think staffs the hospitals after 5pm on week days, on weekends and public holidays?

          99: Did i deny that jinior doctors dont work shift ?

          You seem to have a problem with the concept of quoting, if you tried to quote what i actually said u will find i never said any of the things you arte throwing at me

          ~~~

          P: Thirdly, you obviously know nothing about being a GP. GPs in rural Australia often staff the local hospital too, where they are on call for up to a week and have to go to see patients at the hospital day or night

          99: Rural doctors are minority. We cant pretend befause rural doctors do something then we will pretend they all do.

          Grow up, a few isnt he same as the majority , a few people win lotto that doesnt mean EVERYONE wins.

          ~~

          P: You don't call this shift work? Or are you actually not aware of what doctors do outside your own narrow-minded and preconceived understanding of the world?

          99: When did i say or deny any of these things ?

          You should apologise for inventing MORE bullshit that I NEVER SAID.

  • squaredonut on 19/01/2018 - 22:24
    +8

    I’ve been reading a lot about this, and seem to empathise with them.

    Firstly, like everyone’s says if you can do the job of the drivers you guys should apply. The more the better, this would increase supply for them.

    The main problem it seems is it takes an entire year to train up and also it’s not a walk in the park the job.

    Furthermore people keep thinking the network is screwed and shit because of the drivers and other workers? But all the screw ups are usually around signalling issues, train break downs, people getting sick on trains, fatalities etc, nothing to do with how these guys perform on their job, as far as I know they are probably doing their job correctly.

    People often or not seem to overlook the fact that when an individual is performing their job well and there’s no issues they never get rewarded or commended rather it’s the same attitude of yeah they get paid so they should do a good job.

    From what I’ve read the strike is about pay increase and working conditions and funny enough they go hand in hand because apparently Victoria and Queensland are paying about 20k more for drivers and are poaching all newly trained drivers and existing ones.

    It’s a fair game, supply and demand dictates what you’re worth these days, and if the supply is low people will pay more. The drivers are arguing that if a pay increase isn’t out in place to gradually match what other states are offering then more people will jump ship and more new recruits that almost completing their training will leave. What does that result in? They lose more drivers and won’t be able to deliver the same services right now. And what does this mean? It means that all existing drivers would need to do overtime work forever.

    It’s a stupid game the minister is playing. If you lose more drivers, you’ll eventually need to pay a lot more to poach them back.

    There’s no way to accelerate training either and get new drivers out on the tracks faster.

    Furthermore people are saying they get paid for overtime, sure, but I think most are doing 7 day shifts, it’s goinf to mess with their minds and I’m sure not everyone wants to continuously doing it, but the new timetable is contingent on a large number of them doing overtime.

    • [Deactivated] on 20/01/2018 - 11:01
      +1

      Ok, If "all the screw ups are usually around signalling issues, train break downs, people getting sick on trains, fatalities etc" what this gotta do with their strike? with their working condition? with their pay?

      Its more like an internal issue, they should sort out their own problems, drivers can raise complaint against the signalling or maintenance dept, of whatever they call it.

      For sickies and fatalities, they just need to educate people more not to travel when they're sick, stay at home, call or visit nearest GP.

      Fatalities is a bit tricky, can you advise people not to commit suicide on the rail line? or not dumb enough to cross or jump on the tracks for whatever reason. And keep reminding them to stay behind the yellow lines at all times?

      • squaredonut on 20/01/2018 - 15:40
        +1

        I mentioned this point in regards to all the people saying the drivers striking don’t deserve a pay rise because the network delivers crap service, and unless the pay rise improves service they don’t deserve it, etc

  • burns13 on 20/01/2018 - 00:59
    +5

    Do people really think 2.5% is fair and acceptable? Factor in CPI (1.8%) and it isnt really a rise in pay at all.

    I will also say poor wage growth is a huge issue in our economy. We have practically lost a decade as far as wages and conditions go, possibly overall we might even be worse off.

    I say good on the transport workers and hopefully more Australians follow their lead because our economy will be in big trouble if workers purchasing power drops too low. Insane levels of household debt already threatens our economy today. I cant see how a rational fair person can vote that a near pay freeze is acceptable.

    • [Deactivated] on 20/01/2018 - 10:52

      I've had 1% pay rise or less in the last 8 years, including 2 pay freezes, maybe I'm just unlucky with my current job. 2.5% rise for me its like winning a jackpot.

      • kev98 on 20/01/2018 - 13:29
        +12

        maybe you should be looking for another job

      • thetrain on 20/01/2018 - 18:08
        +1

        blimey! I know we disagree on the strike but you're definitely being hard done!

        Since you're getting a pay cut after inflation every year it might be time to go to your company's HR department (or look for another job). If they've kept you for >8 years surely you're worth more to them than that!

      • liquid metal on 20/01/2018 - 18:58
        +2

        Well, why did you accept it if they don't value your work? Look for another job and don't be against fair work conditions.

        • [Deactivated] on 21/01/2018 - 10:17

          Sometimes its hard to find another job, too many competition these days. We have 457s flooding our market, and new fresh migrants willing to work for bargain salary.

          Still consider myself lucky to even have a job with 1% rise. But then again, many people fare better than me, but some people also fare worse.

          Definitely on the lookout, while holding on the current job.

        • liquid metal on 22/01/2018 - 12:50

          @blaccdong:

          Fair enough. Hope you find a good offer soon.

      • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 10:34

        Well thats your problem and im sad for you, but that doesnt mean some other little guys cant get a break.

        People in Vietnam work for $5 a day, if we want to play the game others get less, all of us in Australia are overpaid and snould be paid less.

  • NoobTan on 20/01/2018 - 12:32
    +6

    I'm starting to feel so useless going through uni and getting paid less than rail workers even after 5 years working 9-7 (reach home 8/8.30 because too expensive to live near city) most of the day except Friday or long weekends. No allowance for anything apart from uber home after 9pm, and $500 christmas bonus pre-tax for the hard work Saturdays I did.

    • veritas_mendax on 22/01/2018 - 08:36

      Why don’t you become a train driver then?

      • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 10:35

        Probably doesnt wan tot put in the hard work they do, and comntinue to whinge about it.

  • techhead on 20/01/2018 - 14:59
    +7

    I'm a rail worker (at the bottom of the heap and payscale now having previously driven rain before on far too much cash) and I hate to say it but agree even I get paid well, too well and I'm the bottom feeder. I was a technical engineer and consultant prior but this is secure and pays better. I would sooner trade in the cashflow for better rostering and better passenger experience which would make our jobs much more enjoyable.

    Oddly the cleaners we have are two accountants, a physicist who made a mistake and were placed by centrelink into the roles. They got comfortable and stayed thwre

    Privatisation isn't the way but change needs to be made. The price of a PT travel in Australia rivals private motorcar ownership and I fail to see value considering ning a car in Australia seems to be made particuarly unappealing and super expensive. Costs of running a train are modest after the initial outlay and they last many many years.

    I suspect the end result will be NSW pulling the plug and putting the network out to pasture for foreign ownership, a pity.

    Adjust the roster as an appeasement and give them 2.5% I say

    (In the union but not performing union work, not sure if this is "associated")

  • Dack Smith on 20/01/2018 - 18:48
    +4

    Why do union leaders and their deputies earn so much when their workers earn much less ?

    They do jack all except rant and rave from their lofty perch just like all them pollie buggers

    This strike is just them trying to justify their rich lard money fatcat positions and bringing pain to the average poor workers and commuters ….
    many of whom have nothing to do with this dispute.

    Screw the government and screw the union pricks

    • liquid metal on 20/01/2018 - 18:59
      +1

      So much insight

    • [Deactivated] on 22/01/2018 - 14:45

      Union leaders are like CEOs, except sans the qualification. Some earn their keep and some get there through brown nosing.

      The main gripe I have with union leaders (apart from them being in the union) is that they are a one sided representation.

      If a union representative is being aggressively unreasonable, union members are immune. However, if the union representative is successful, some of those benefits trickle down to the members.

      I'm all for equality. Equal oppurtunity and equal liability. If a worker signs up with the union to be a member, and the union is being unreasonable, withdraw membership or be liable for the words of the representative. This can mean losing their job or given formal warning.

      Until the unions learn to conduct themselves decently, know what negotiation means, and members are liable for the actions of their association, unions are no better than hooligans.

      • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 10:41

        The qualifications in being a CEO ? What a joke. THe only skills they have is being greedy barstards most of them are completely useless in actual management of the business and staff. The city rail higher ups are a perfect example of this, not only concerning the drivers but even recent new rail projects.

        TS: I'm all for equality. Equal oppurtunity and equal liability. If a worker signs up with the union to be a member, and the union is being unreasonable, withdraw membership or be liable for the words of the representative. This can mean losing their job or given formal warning.

        99: Thats utter bullshit. A union cant get someone fired, they dont own the company. The chances are basically zero and to pretend its a real concern is utterly dishonest.

        ~

        TS: Until the unions learn to conduct themselves decently, know what negotiation means, and members are liable for the actions of their association, unions are no better than hooligans.

        99: Yeh those evil unions stop them for standing up for the little guy. THose evil unions protesting when they sent kids down the mines, working 12 hour days, gaining compensation and safety rights for workers.

        Damn evil idea.

        The ones who need to learn manners and not treat people like machines are the management of city rail who make promises without first making proper arrangements for sufficient staff. This is basic stuff, if you dont have enough drivers dont make promises you cant keep. But being the arrogant shites that they are, they continued to expand and make more promises ignoring the requests of less overtime from the drivers.

        • [Deactivated] on 24/01/2018 - 11:00

          A union can't get someone fired is exactly my point. You've miscomprehended.

          I've pointed out how unions should conduct themselves. Your rebuttal is loading the argument with the word "evil". Saying repeatedly doesn't make it true.

          The argument at hand isn't city rail management, it is the strike, the Union's demand and the damage to the economy.

          Your rebuttals keep shifting the argument. If your argument has no leg to stand on, just stop. Sarcasm and rhetoric aren't arguments on their own.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 12:55

          @tshow:

          TS: I've pointed out how unions should conduct themselves. Your rebuttal is loading the argument with the word "evil". Saying repeatedly doesn't make it true

          99: It was sarcasm, better turn your computer on before you try and reply.

          ~

          TS: The argument at hand isn't city rail management, it is the strike, the Union's demand and the damage to the economy.

          99: Considering the unions and the drivers have asked for less overtime for months and years, how long is enough ?

          ~

          TS: Your rebuttals keep shifting the argument. If your argument has no leg to stand on, just stop. Sarcasm and rhetoric aren't arguments on their own.

          99: NO they dont, yet again you make claims without any proof via citations or links.

        • [Deactivated] on 24/01/2018 - 13:01

          @ninetyNineCents:
          Yeah I got that sarcasm. You've even quoted me on it. Please read.

          Shifting the argument to management again? Repeatedly doing so doesn't make it the same topic.

          I have to prove that sarcasm and rhetoric doesn't make arguments? I have to cite that? Or does "it" refer to your shifting argument, which I have repeatedly pointed to? Read.

          You know, I think I'll summarise all response to you - stop, read, think.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 13:04

          @tshow:

          TS: Shifting the argument to management again? Repeatedly doing so doesn't make it the same topic.

          99: Life is a bit more complex than one simple statement. Im sure you can comprehend not every industrial matter can boiled down to three or four words with a few pictures of caterpillars.

          ~

          TS: You know, I think I'll summarise all response to you - stop, read, think.

          99: Spend less time on your strengths of stupid ad hom, and more time on facts and quoting them.

        • [Deactivated] on 24/01/2018 - 17:24

          @ninetyNineCents:
          I agree, life is complex and does revolve around isolated issues but when in discussion, it is inappropriate to just expand the field of conversation to include other topics. If we extend the conversation to include management, why not include government. Why not talking about immigration, population control, religious upheaval.

          I hardly see anyone giving a pat on the back to management (if any). I think it's in poor taste that they gave themselves a 9% payrise.

          This strike has no merit on its own and is only served by convenient comparison of pay to other states, other jobs, management…

          With regards to quotes, don't ignore the fact I have quoted and you admit error. You ask for numbers on discussions where numbers means nothing. You've continued to skirt the request for number of applicants after you specifically said there are insufficient applicants.

          The facts are there. You just choose to ignore them because you don't like it.

          I don't claim to know your strengths, and you clearly don't know what ad hom means. You call my strengths stupid, opposing views "evil", name calling… Those are ad hom.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 19:29

          @tshow:

          TS: I agree, life is complex and does revolve around isolated issues but when in discussion, it is inappropriate to just expand the field of conversation to include other topics.

          99: Except that i didnt. Yet again you make a claim, and you fail to list in a very brief manner the topics i have discussed. THat is of course because everything i have said is part of the very same things the train drivers are highlighting.

          Next time you claim i have said seomething, QUOTE ME, then add your commentary.

          ~~

          TS: Why not talking about immigration, population control, religious upheaval.

          99: Again more red herrings …

          ~~

          TS: With regards to quotes, don't ignore the fact I have quoted and you admit error.

          99: yes i made ONE mistake, all your other claims ARE YOUR MISTAKES. You failed to provide evidence so therefore they are wrong. Thats how big adults do things, if the crown makes an accusation about the def, they must provide evidence otherwise that is invalid.

          ~~

          TS: You ask for numbers on discussions where numbers means nothing.

          99: No i havent, again show my mistake. Its hardly fair to claim i have made a mistake and fail to produce it.

          ~

          TS: I don't claim to know your strengths, and you clearly don't know what ad hom means.

          99: Its plain to see the amount of time your replies are wasted pathetic insults. Those sentences add no value to the conversation. As always you insult when you cant provide quotes or links.

        • [Deactivated] on 24/01/2018 - 20:53

          @ninetyNineCents:
          Okay. You seem to call my arguments "stupid ad homs". (I suppose you'll ask me to quote. Lol).

          You brand my perspective "evil" (lol. Will ask for more "quotes").

          I only ever call your arguments weak because they are weak. I've never put a label on you to imply your arguments are bad. Your arguments are bad on their own merit.

          The mark of an educated man is the ability to change their mind as they identify proof.

          I can see now I'm arguing with someone who is a broken tape record for "quotes and numbers" and will dodge a request for any substantiated fact.

          Proof of shifting argument? Started off debating if workers should be granted their demands. Now talking about ad homs, red herrings, and more rubbish demands for quote. Couldn't continue the argument when asked for some numbers on "insufficient applicants".

          You probably want a quote and some numbers for that too. Good luck with the strike (if you're invested in it). You definitely need a union with that level of intellect.

        • ninetyNineCents on 25/01/2018 - 14:29

          @tshow:

          TS: Okay. You seem to call my arguments "stupid ad homs". (I suppose you'll ask me to quote. Lol).

          99: Of course, write like an adult in complete sentences with context, not a handful of words that nobody can read and appreciate exaxctly what you are pinpointing.

          ~~

          TS: I only ever call your arguments weak because they are weak. I've never put a label on you to imply your arguments are bad. Your arguments are bad on their own merit.

          99: Thats the point , you cant actually point out any of my mistakes, the best you can do is cry like a baby and say you are right.

          ~

          TS: Proof of shifting argument? Started off debating if workers should be granted their demands. Now talking about ad homs, red herrings, and more rubbish demands for quote. Couldn't continue the argument when asked for some numbers on "insufficient applicants".

          99: The red herrings are when you spray your stupid insults, instead of focusing on the topic. Your worthless insults add NO intelligence to the conversation, they are a waste. But then again considering your inability to actually share facts or figures its hardly surprising you fall back on your only skill.

          ~

          TS: Couldn't continue the argument when asked for some numbers on "insufficient applicants"

          99: Here we go again, who asked whom ? Such a poorly constructed sentence that is completely confusing and of course serves no prurpose to improving the conversation.

  • lonix on 20/01/2018 - 18:49

    Don't they already get 100k+?

    If they do I'll quite happily take their job.

    • liquid metal on 20/01/2018 - 18:59
      +5

      Well, then apply for it

      • [Deactivated] on 21/01/2018 - 10:27
        +1

        Only passed the first criteria, the rest are tricky:

        Have a current Certificate IV in Transport Logistics (Rail Operations) / or equivalent.
        Have a minimum of 2 years demonstrated practical Train Driving experience (you must have relevant experience within the last 24 months).
        Hold a Category 1 Rail Safe Medical clearance / or ability to attain.
        Have official driving records and /or qualifications that outline work history in Train Driving.
        Have the ability to demonstrate the technical skills and experience of a Train Driver.

        These guys very smart, its not easy to apply for these jobs, thus creating a shortage, then you know the rest.

        On the other hand, if you apply in Defence, they provide you with all the training you need, all you need is just HSC:

        https://army.defencejobs.gov.au/jobs/surveillance-aircraft-o…

        • [Deactivated] on 22/01/2018 - 14:51
          +1

          To apply, first you must be a train driver.

          To be a train driver, first you must apply.

          "Oh no, there never seem to be qualified applicants. The solution has to be higher pay so it attracts more applicants." - every recent union campaigner.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 10:42

          @tshow:

          Thats utter nonsense. If that were true there wouldnt be any train drivers and city rail would havent had brought on 150 odd train drivers (not enough though) in the last year.

        • [Deactivated] on 24/01/2018 - 11:03

          @ninetyNineCents:
          The recruitment policy is listed above. Utter nonsense is what you spew. Let's not confuse what you're paddling with mine.

        • ninetyNineCents on 24/01/2018 - 12:53

          @tshow:

          TS: The recruitment policy is listed above.

          99: No where does that text say ( a few comments above by our friend blaccdong ) you have you must have train driver experience previously.

          TS: Let's not confuse what you're paddling with mine.

          99: Bravo as always you fail to provide a quote to back your assertions, but you resort to the only skill you know, shitty little kiddie insults. Next time you make a claim, QUOTE it and let everyone see what you are saying is true.

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