PSA: Please Don't Do Home Electrical Work

BensonP on 06/05/2017 - 12:18

Good morning everyone!

Firstly, the story I'm about to to tell begins at Bunnings on an overcast Saturday in Melbourne. I find myself telling it, as there have been a few threads about downlights, and whatnot.

I'm walking around picking up some gear to wire up some fluorescent light for my garage. I can see many people in the electrical aisle with no idea what they are doing. As I am wearing my high vis, I am stopped by about half a dozen people (in the space of an hour) asking electrical questions, in particular cable sizing for power-points. What am I supposed to do? I can't NOT tell them the correct size. In my eyes, the power-point is getting wired regardless of what I say. So I might as well give them the answers they want. No big deal.

Now the second part of my story relates to people not knowing what they are doing, when wiring. When changing light sockets and power-points, flicking off the switch IS NOT a suitable isolation for work.

So after isolating my lighting circuit, I continued to remove the light switch back-plate. The first thing that struck my eye, was that the it was wired in 2.5mm2 cable and not 1.5mm2 cable. Sure, sometimes this happens, when the sparky has no 1.5mm2 left. No big deal.

So I grab my multi-meter, and notice there is still 240 volts, on the switch. I connect my multi-meter and flick the switch. 240 volts at the light socket.

Next to the light switch there is a power-point, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out where the power is coming from. (Spoiler alert: the light was fed from the power circuit).

There is nothing wrong with this, as the bigger cable was chosen. Mixed power/lighting circuits exist, and people need to be aware of this, rather than assume, and end up dead, or worse.

Cheers and enjoy your weekend.

(And yes, I did buy a snag at 9am. You can judge all you want.)

Electrical & Electronics

Comments

        • noz on 09/05/2017 - 09:22
          +1

          Your comment doesn't make too much sense, or I have misunderstood you. How does not being able to do gigabit speeds mean that it can't do 100Mbps? If you can access both ends of the cable and they have plugs on them, connect a PC at each end and run a speed testing utility such as "iperf". This will tell you whether or not you can get 100Mpbs or more on the cable(as long as your PCs aren't the bottleneck).

        • db87 on 09/05/2017 - 10:16

          Each of these above comments are both referring to structured cabling, at the least, only requiring about 1-2 weeks of in class training to gain the qualification.

          Plenty of these "cowboys" multiplied (sparkies with limited comms exposure included!) when the government thought it was a great idea to give handouts for completing the course.

          I have extensive experience in all of my ticketed comms fields as well as domestic, industrial and commercial electrical work, yet these same guys can walk out of a classroom after a week or 2, and have the same comms tickets as me….. Buyer beware!

          This is where it gets cloudy, because your tarnishing what could be a good sparky, simply based on his comms knowledge, which could be rubbish given limited past exposure to the system, but "Hey, I'm ticketed, pay me sparky rates!" tends to come to mind.

          Comms = telecommunications (known as open cables licence plus various endorsements).

        • sane on 09/05/2017 - 10:48
          +1

          @db87:

          So what you are saying is the qualification system doesn't work to ensure quality and acts as a closed shop to allow muppets to extract money for incompetence?

          Which is the wider scale problem we were talking about - qualification doesn't ensure they are any good.

          As I'll repeat, other countries can strike a sane balance that allows individuals to do a certain amount themselves, and the solution should be to make it possible for ANYONE to do work and not screw it up (because sparkies screw it up often too).

          All you get by trying to outlaw everything is a large percentage of the population ignoring all the rules and doing it themselves, including both the things they are capable of (changing a socket) and the things they aren't. The regulation has the perverse effect of making things less safe, both by bringing all the regulations into general disrepute, and because it focuses on things (qualification) that don't work.

          Need output focus, not input.

        • db87 on 09/05/2017 - 13:39

          @sane:

          For comms cabling, yes. For sparky work IN YOUR FIELD, no.

          I believe 2-4 weeks is not enough to pick up an industry wide comms ticket. Unless your current field supports it, there should be no RPL for it.

          Same goes for an electrical license. There should be additional training for anyone changing fields. You'll find a lot of industrial/commercial sparkies jumping ship to domestic work when their sector dries up. In my eyes, these are your domestic electrical cowboys that complete below average work.

          As for comms work - same goes. Unless as a sparky, you have some sort of comms exposure I believe there should be increased testing to capture your knowledge. As it stands, the open cabling (comms) licence is a part of the electrical licence and as above, unless you complete x amount of years exposed to it, you come out licenced, but unskilled.

          I believe it is the plumbing trade that broke their licencing system up a few years back, and although a pain to plumbers wanting to change sectors, the above (electrical) examples can definitely explain why a trade body would do such a thing.

          As far as licencing goes for sparkies, I think it's more than adequate, given you stay in the same field you complete your apprenticeship in.

      • nrg2010 on 08/05/2017 - 14:18

        Solution:stop hiring dumb arses and get a professional

    • JimB on 08/05/2017 - 14:28
      +3

      I think NZ has a good system.

      You can legally do small electrical jobs but not major.

      I admit that I have swapped a faulty 40yo GPO with a new GPO and other minor electrical work. It's not rocket science and I'm not an idiot.

      • t25 on 08/05/2017 - 18:55
        +2

        I remember in the UK people used to be able to wire up their own homes, but needed a qualified sparkie to sign off on any work before the utilities companies would connect to their grid. Is this still the case?

  • redfox1200 on 06/05/2017 - 17:41

    the first thing i did when i bought my new place was turn on each circuit one at a time and mapped out what was connected.

    two things i found were an aircon MCB that powers one of the main power/GPO MCB circuits, and some of the outdoor lighting on the power circuit! not sure if DIY or dodgy electrician

    • smpantsonfire on 07/05/2017 - 21:45

      It very much depends on the power rating of the unit. Some low power units don't require a new circuit, and can just get power from a main circuit.

  • azz7 on 06/05/2017 - 22:53
    +6

    One thing that is frequently overlooked is the liability that individuals expose themselves to when they carry out electrical work.

    Your responsibility for the work you do doesn't end when you walk away from the job. To some extent it remains present for the life of the installation. It is important to for people to realize that the consequences of their actions have the potential to reach far into the future and this definitely applies to anyone performing electrical work.

    If you engage the services of a licensed electrical contractor then part of what you are paying them for is for them to accept this liability.

    I've been indirectly involved in a few electrical incident investigations over the years and one thing that I found surprising about them is the effort that the relevant regulatory authorities will go to in establishing the identity of individuals responsible for non-compliant or negligent electrical work. This is particularly true for cases involving fatalities or extensive property damage.

    I'm not trying to scare anyone off going down the DIY path but sometimes you need to think beyond the technical aspects and look at the bigger picture.

    • db87 on 09/05/2017 - 10:21

      Simply put, no certificate, no insurance!

      I refuse to do "cash" work off this principle alone. I worked hard to earn my ticket, the money made now is not worth the headache later if/when something can go wrong.

      The system is what it is, people can abide by it or suck up the consequences when they cry poor because they tried to cut corners and save a few bucks.

  • Candour on 07/05/2017 - 08:21

    thank you for that timely warning. saving money at the expense of your life is not a sensible option.

  • GOCAT9 on 07/05/2017 - 10:00
    +3

    Do I technically need a sparkle to do this:

    When professional painters paint a wall, they will always "cut in" around light switches and GPOs. I pride myself on doing a better job than "professional" painters because I have the time to do it as slow and carefully as I want. Consequently, to get a "better than professional" job, I loosen the switch plate a few cm off the wall so I can paint under the plate. I screw it back onto the wall when the paint dries (tip: not before!!).

    Legally, do I need a sparkle to loosen all those plates for me?

    Secondly, if you take the light or GPO off the wall you can see how the wires were inserted into the back of the switch. When joining to other switches etc, should the wires be twisted together with plyers before putting in the hole before tightening with the screw or just placing the individual wires in seperately before tightening?

    • BensonP on 07/05/2017 - 10:15
      +2

      If you are careful, you can definitely take the switch away to paint around. When I painted our house, I just popped the switch surround off. It didn't matter if I painted the switch edge, as the surround would cover it.

      As for termination, I don't recall specific rules on how to terminate. But 99.9% of electricians strip about 1cm more than required, twirl tightly and then trim to length.

      Twirling really gives the screw some 'meat' to dig into and create the best possible (and tightest) connection.

    • [Deactivated] on 08/05/2017 - 15:35

      No

  • GOCAT9 on 07/05/2017 - 10:28

    Thanks BensonP, helpful comments.

    Unfortunately my switches are of the type (Clipsal?) that don't have a separate cover plate like some do, so I had to remove the whole switch!!

  • gimli on 07/05/2017 - 21:28

    Tldr - electric circuits are not what they always look like so get a sparky or get sparked.

  • nikey2k27 on 07/05/2017 - 21:54
    +1

    As some who did first year apprentice electrician Your i personally tell turn whole house off everything at main.

    • OzzyOzbourne on 08/05/2017 - 10:20
      +14

      I can barely understand your sentence, but that's probably not important for a sparky.

      • nikey2k27 on 08/05/2017 - 20:46
        -7

        yup, i make 150 per hour.

      • db87 on 09/05/2017 - 10:23
        -3

        I love people like you that make these jokes… I also love handing people like you the bill when we walk away. Jokes all around, everyone's happy!

        <insert something about sparky laughing last>

  • Illyria on 07/05/2017 - 22:52
    +1

    "Mixed power/lighting circuits exist, and people need to be aware of this, rather than assume, and end up dead, or worse."

    What is worse than ending up dead?

    • [Deactivated] on 07/05/2017 - 23:49
      +4

      Permanent disability, requiring someone to move, feed, shower, clothe you, etc.

  • dufflover on 07/05/2017 - 22:53
    +3

    There is nothing wrong with this, as the bigger cable was chosen. Mixed power/lighting circuits exist, and people need to be aware of this, rather than assume, and end up dead, or worse.

    Considering all the other laws and regulations around electrical work I kind of find this a joke. I know from an electrical engineer perspective it's perfectly fine, but considering all the other rules I would've thought there'd be one all lights are to wired up to the light fuses.

    This is somewhat an ironic lesson to say you should let sparkies do these home jobs, because you can't trust even the official sparkies who came before …

    • kev98 on 08/05/2017 - 14:27
      +1

      Mixed circuits do exist and are fine so long as they are appropriately marked in the switchboard.

      • db87 on 09/05/2017 - 10:26

        As Kev says, I agree, it is a bit silly, but as long as it's noted somewhere, it's makes the electrician aware of what to look for.

        Sometimes, systems don't allow the convenience of simply having everything all off a lighting circuit or vice versa for power - bit of a get out of jail free card, short of rewiring and/or ripping a dwelling apart.

    • Krizy on 09/05/2017 - 23:26
      -1

      Wow, can you please learn what sjw means and that it isn't synonymous with 'stuff I disagree with'. Literally none of the arguments in this thread on either side of the debate have anything to do with what people normally get called a sjw for. But I could add a few that do.

      • Something something classism in the assumption that everyone can afford $150 for someone to change a lightswitch

      • Something feminist here, but have to be careful of making misogynistic assertions when describing how women are socialised not to do tradeswork and that dissuading them from doing even basic DIY jobs (that are safe if you turn off power at the mains) is disempowering

      • Um, maybe a sjw would raise the idea that people shouldn't risk their lives doing their own electrical work if it means they could literally get killed for being poor? Idk about this one really

      Oh I got it! Okay, so there's the notion that people are stupid if they DIY electrical stuff. How about: smart people DIY successfully, stupid people are the ones you hear about being killed or maimed, but if you're stupid and rich then you can get away with it because money solves all your problems, at least as far as household maintenance goes. Yeah, I'm feeling that one. Rich people are the schrodinger's cat of intelligence: are they smart, or stupid? They are both until poor. Add more rhetoric, mention classism and tie it in to general assumptions that people can afford to pay for shit, and there's your SJW stance (against OP).

      Seriously it's refreshing to see that the phrase sjw is being used BY unwitting sjws.

  • Toons on 08/05/2017 - 02:31
    -2

    It can put it in another way that the you all should understand.

    Electrician does it causes damage Hurts someone, due to faulty work Your Insured. and he will have hell to pay

    Electrician does it and your not happy with something get the regulator involved, if it's actually dodgy they will get fined potentially lose licence etc. and the work corrected.

    Person who isn't an electrician thinking the job isn't that hard, screws up does damage, hurts someone, best of luck no amount of explaining how many dodgy sparkies you think you know will help you

    Say good bye to you,re property if you accidentally burn it down say hello to jail if you hurt someone.

    You will never get insured again.

    I know some things aren't that hard, the extra things that need to be considered can make a of of difference to an installation, like Benson listed above

  • MisterQ on 08/05/2017 - 05:52
    +5

    In a previous lifetime, I was a computer tech, this was mainframe days, and many of them, ran on three phase power. There are multiple ways of wiring three phase, and I lost track of the number of times that I came across Sparkies that didn't know, and had done it wrong. The absolute classic, though, was one day, I was called out to do a computer install at the NSW State Power Grid control centre in Carlingford, as I recall. I asked where I could plug it in, and was pointed at an outlet - I checked it, and it was dead, so I mentioned it. The local tech, said no problem, went to a breaker panel and threw a switch, and plunged the entire centre into darkness. Glad it wasn't me…

  • bejahi on 08/05/2017 - 07:35
    +4

    Op, did you wear an onion on your belt?

  • OzzyOzbourne on 08/05/2017 - 10:18
    +3

    This thread could be more generic, like "pleade don't do dangerous stuff that you are not knowledgeable about"

    It really applies to anything, not just wiring. It's just common sense really.

    Maybe we need a thread called "use common sense" to cover everything.

  • Daniel Plainview on 08/05/2017 - 10:19
    +2

    Good post - that said I still think there's a time and place for the RIGHT minded people to do SOME DIY electrical work regardless of what the nanny state 'rules' state - personally I always use an AC voltage detector (which only costs a few dollars) on every wire I touch and also try to turn off the entire house's power via the master switch before I touch anything.

    If the user was to have ANY doubt YES paying the costs for a licenced sparky would be a no brainer.

    • try2bhelpful on 08/05/2017 - 11:05

      Your problem isn't the nanny state rules, it is the insurance company if your house burns down and they find some "dodgy" wiring in place. You really don't want to give these guys a reason not to pay out.

      • Daniel Plainview on 08/05/2017 - 11:59
        +1

        There's a few assumptions here but point taken - like I said the RIGHT people doing SOME DIY work. Folks need to apply a bit of knowledge to such things and assess on the specific merits of each situation accordingly.

        Generalisations one way or the other aren't really that helpful. :-)

        • try2bhelpful on 08/05/2017 - 14:03
          +2

          The main point is that insurance companies are bastards that will look for any excuse not to pay out. :)

    • snorbert on 08/05/2017 - 14:15
      +2

      You mean, like in New Zealand, which has the same wiring rules as AU (AS/NZS 3000:2007) ?
      http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/about/publications/publicati…

  • jinny7 on 08/05/2017 - 12:01

    I want my 5mins back

  • BertieBrown on 08/05/2017 - 12:25
    +2

    I think you can safely and easily change GPO's yourself by ensuring that the mains are off, and switch off all breakers as well as main breaker and then either use a multimeter or a voltage indicator. What's the difference between a sparkie and a homeowner who knows what they're doing, when so often you don't even get a COC from the sparkie anyway, so who proves what was done where?

    Absolutely, I wouldn't try and rewire my house, but changing a light fitting or a GPO IMO isn't a big deal, particularly so when you consider that a lot of other associated trades like tilers, plumbers, plasterers, security installers etc will often have to pop off a GPO and put it back on again, for instance when tiling or gyprocking etc (they have a restricted electrical license most often) but it's not like you absolutely have to get in a electrician to replace a GPO.

    I totally agree that being a sparkie takes a lot of hard work and that major electrical work should definitely be left to professionals.

    But let's face it, when an electrician wants $150 to replace a GPO, which takes about five seconds and you go into a persons house and they've got an extension cord attached to a power board and about eight different appliances you realise that changing a GPO is not the most dangerous thing in the world when most people become complacent about power boards and overloading where you're very aware that you don't want to screw around with a GPO.

    • db87 on 09/05/2017 - 10:33

      TL:DR

      I get where you're coming from and as a sparky, agree!

      Simple things that are (key word) like-for-like should be able to be changed by reasonably competent handyman/woman. In the same breath, this is where and why a COC is not required.

  • GOCAT9 on 08/05/2017 - 13:44

    Ok, if I was to get in a sparkle to do this job.

    I want a GPO put on a wall. Directly on the other side of the same wall there is already a GPO but it is about a metre higher up. So I suspect the sparkie will just run a 2.5mm2 cable from the existing GPO down to the newer one on the other side of the wall. However, by knocking on the gyprock wall there is a noggin in between. How will he( or she) route the power cable past the noggin?

    Two methods I know could be. Drill down with a spade bit on a long extension through head plate from above in ceiling or cut through the gyprock wall where the noggin is and cut a hole/slot in it to route cable and then patch hole which is quite easy.

  • payless69 on 08/05/2017 - 14:02

    First tool you need is a phase checker or a voltage sniffer and get familiar on how to use it. If it lights up, pop more fuses, if it still lights ask an expert.

    With fat wires it is the same as with women. You ask for more and you will get more!

    Neat work is required as well as some healthy feeling on how to tighten terminals, most fires occur when terminals get loose and hot on high current.

    If you have no experience just string the wires and let the sparkie connect them.

    • GOCAT9 on 08/05/2017 - 14:10

      Thanks for that. I just completed the job! Decided to cut a small hole where the noggin was ( about 5cm x 5 cm). Then using a chisel, cut a channel through the noggin. Then was able to pull cable down through it- done! Just have to flush over the small hole now, paint and voila!

      BTW, Before starting, I isolated whole house and used a voltage sniffer just in case, no issues!

  • GOCAT9 on 08/05/2017 - 16:04

    This is what the hole looks like: https://files.ozbargain.com.au/upload/150847/48848/img_4561.…

    • BensonP on 08/05/2017 - 16:14

      Personally I don't run that close to the surface, due to nails and screw puncturing wires.

      You must have an RCD on that circuit now, in order for it to be safe.

      Although an RCD should be there as a backup, not to rely on.

      Cheers

      • GOCAT9 on 08/05/2017 - 18:58

        Yep, RCD is already in that circuit together with all others! Ta!

        • syousef on 09/05/2017 - 13:45

          How often do you test your RCDs?

      • db87 on 09/05/2017 - 13:54

        Benson, I've been in oil and gas for a while so a bit out of touch with the regs for additions, can you still add an inline rcd gpo for additions to a circuit thereon? I vaguely remember this being an option and a bit of a get out of jail free card for older systems.

        Essentially just providing a COC for the additions and none of the previous installation. Obviously it still required the presence of a functional earth, etc., but removed the need to upgrade switchboards or non-rcd protected circuits.

        Of course, preference is always to upgrade the circuits/switches, but this isn't always the most cost effective or viable option. Just trying to jog the memory on where we would have used it.

    • kev98 on 08/05/2017 - 17:07
      +1

      Most reliable tool will always be a multi-meter. I have had these non-contact testers go off before when they shouldn't

      • GOCAT9 on 08/05/2017 - 19:05

        Agreed, but false positives on non-contact testers have never killed anybody! It's the false negatives that are the problem!!

      • dufflover on 08/05/2017 - 22:21

        always be a multi-meter

        Better go the whole hog and use the "Fluke" name instead cos they really got to stop saying the basic home use multimeters can handle high voltage AC - ok they probably can … but I'd rather fork out for the big proper fluke for that and not put my cheapie Jaycar Digitec anywhere near it!

        • kev98 on 08/05/2017 - 22:26

          I would recommend a Fluke 114. Decent entry level multi-meter, under $200 on ebay. If you're moneybags & need to measure current go for the better constructed Fluke 179. And just for the record 240V is not high voltage!!

  • GangGang on 08/05/2017 - 17:45

    9am is late. I've waited for snags when they are setting up in the morning.

  • T1OOO on 08/05/2017 - 22:40

    Yup. Some people do end up dead. I wouldn't go near it.

  • R3XNebular on 09/05/2017 - 01:05
    +1

    Installing cat6e cables yourself.. Ive always considered it and always thought if I was going to carry out the job id switch off the mains…

    • Charity on 10/05/2017 - 23:31

      interesting stat.

  • Gershom on 09/05/2017 - 06:25
    -1

    You're house insurance won't cover you for fires resulting from unauthorised electrical work. Ever. So if your place burns down in 20 years …….

  • DarkOz on 09/05/2017 - 09:12

    Just to be totally safe, invest $20 in a pair of 12KV electrical insulating gloves.

  • Plug on 09/05/2017 - 11:35

    Getting a licenced contractor to do electrical work is ok but I really don't see whhy I need a licenced tech to run Cat 5 through my walls roofspace. No current involved, just data.

    • jonathonsunshine on 09/05/2017 - 20:43

      Data = Electricity.

      • kywst on 10/05/2017 - 19:57

        Data == Information. Ethernet utilises marginal electricity … ~200 mW in any given circuit with a voltage of +-3v. A licensed cabler isn't "required" in response to electrical concern.

    • dufflover on 10/05/2017 - 20:31
      -1

      Because a lot of the laws are based on lowest common denominator idiots. Some people will no doubt get confused and somehow mismash with the mains lines that are in the roof space :P

  • tommy-darko on 09/05/2017 - 17:38

    Such a "buzzkill" :P

  • GreatWhiteHunter on 09/05/2017 - 20:06

    SO basically what happened here is the power point was already installed.

    Someone later decided to install a light. But couldnt be assed runnning a light cable (too hard, no time, lazy, whatever).

    So they just ran a light off the power circuit.

    Happens a lot…

  • jonathonsunshine on 09/05/2017 - 20:42

    I lived in a share house for a few years, my room had one single power point, not even a double. Housemates friend was a sparky, asked him a bunch of times of he could change it for me until he got sick of me asking and told me to get f'd.

    Went to Bunnings bought a 4 way power point and installed it. Was easy as. Only regret is not doing it sooner.

    Did it when no one else was home though and turned off everything at the switch board. Was terrified.

  • fruit on 10/05/2017 - 10:20

    I actually read OP.

    I can see many people in the electrical aisle with no idea what they are doing. As I am wearing my high vis, I am stopped by about half a dozen people (in the space of an hour) asking electrical questions,

    TL;DR OP didn't turn off mains before doing electrical work and virtual signaling

    • BensonP on 10/05/2017 - 11:45
      -1

      This is why we use lock offs

      You do not need to turn off the main isolater in order to work. Isolation and locking off of the circuit is fine.

  • schwinn on 10/05/2017 - 13:10

    Do I need a sparky to mess around with 24VAC?

    My scenario is I'm considering doing a NEST thermostat change over, and while it's very simple, I'm just concerned about other things such as insurance coverage, safety etc. I expect it to take less than 30 minutes ( I think NEST stated around 20 minutes). I've gotten quotes from sparkies to do this, low 100's, and am only getting a sparky if a CoC is required for this etc.

  • cybapete on 10/05/2017 - 17:17

    it makes you wonder if an electrician is required to install something like a light or fan then why are they sold over the counter in bunnings to any joe bloggs who walks in off the street?

  • kywst on 10/05/2017 - 19:46

    TL;DR never trust the label.

  • ToobsAU on 02/06/2017 - 03:54

    I accept your luminaires connected to the power circuit using 20A and raise you this double light switch:-
    http://i.imgur.com/aCbOEba.jpg

    It features:-
    *connected to the light circuit but looped to 2 x 6 way power points.
    *earth wires "twist n taped" together using gaffer tape.
    *all neutral wires rammed into a single "loop" terminal on one of the keystone switches (remember this is 20A cable all round).
    *Hot cable tapped mid run (insulation was removed in a section and split using the same gaffer twist n tape method.)
    *mounted too close to the stud to allow the use of a plasterboard bracket so it was fixed to the plaster using wood screws.
    *Half of the cables used were the infamous Infinity cable that was recalled because it sheds it's insulation at the smallestexposure to heat/UV light.

    Oh and the real kicker, the work was done and invoiced by a kitchen maker who lists a "mates" electrical license number on jobs involving electrical work… Leading the customer to sincerely believe the work was done by a licensed electrician.

    • Matt2024 on 03/03/2018 - 20:23

      Sincerely hope that isnt in your house!

      Also hope you reported that guy .. thats a massive fire risk right there.

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