Australian Government cheating over International Students

Lspiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 20:10

I'm an international student who got my visa in late 2010 and recently wrapped up my degree. One of the big incentives to choose Australia over other popular study destinations was the option of a 2 year post-study visa, regardless of degree, which i felt could be an opportunity to gain some experience in my field, perhaps doing an internship to gain a bit of an advantage for when i return home, or just to earn a bit of money i can take home with me. I just recently learnt that in 2013 the rules were changed and now if you applied for your visa before November 2011, you had no opportunity to get a post-study visa unless your degree was part of the Skilled Occupations List. However applicants after Nov 2011 could get an 18 month post study visa regardless of their degree because they had gone through a newer visa application process.

To me this seems like a massive breach of trust to just cancel one of the major incentives that international students factored in before they spent tens of thousands of dollars on education here. Can they even legally do this or do they have carte blanche just because they are the government? If i were to take legal action against them what would be good way to start? I feel cheated and i'm determined to get some compensation.

Education & Work

Comments

  • nocure on 29/07/2015 - 20:11
    +29

    Cool story,sounds like the rules have changed for a good reason.

    • spiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 20:36
      +25

      i'm not disputing that, i have no problem with them improving their visa application process. however that does not mean that they can scrap what was available to people who applied before the changes. it's no different from people being able to keep their cellphone plans despite changes to the plan for new subscribers, except with a cellphone plan a few thousand dollars are at stake, not tens of thousands in this case

      • snook on 30/07/2015 - 14:33
        +23

        OP, I will bet that in the fine print of any visa detail you entered the country under, there is a clause that says the requirements may change at any time without notice and that it is up to you to keep yourself informed. I would expect you have no legal recourse on this whatsoever & certainly not with this attitude. The Department of Immigration are not the friendliest public servants around. You'd do yourself a favour to be a little humble about it if you approach them.

      • ITveteran on 31/07/2015 - 14:38
        +10

        OP I am sorry for your story and bear sympathy for you. However I think this is kind of political risks. Yes it may be unfair but there is no binding contract between you and the government for all the conditions. Sometime we have to suck it up, blame on bad luck and look forward. My own example, when I bought my first home in 2003 in NSW, I paid full stamp duty but shortly afterwards that was exempted for the first home buyer; not long after I had my baby the government started to hand out big baby bonus which again skipped me. Should I complain this as unfair treatment? I just take it as my bad luck.

        Anyway, Australia economy is getting doomed in the foreseeable future, plus the housing costs getting ridiculous now. If I were you I would just happily head back home and take whatever opportunities I can find there.

      • abh_gup on 31/07/2015 - 22:21
        +1

        @spiderman3fan the term used in legislation is called 'Grandfathering' and 'Transitioning' rules, as recently applied to age pension tests for pre 1st Jan 2015 age pension recipients. Personally, I feel is immoral to change such rules (that can affect maybe millions) on the go without 'Grandfathering' and 'Transitioning'. However, Australian economy is cash stripped currently,, so they are not the kindest right now, politically speaking.

      • nocure on 29/07/2015 - 20:59
        +4

        And then take "legal action" against a country that has provided him with education that his home country obviously could not…yeah thanks for visiting.

        • spiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 21:38
          +56

          i love australia, and didn't say anything bad about it. I don't get the hostility.

        • spiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 21:45
          +251

          @Spackbace:

          we pay 4 times what local students pay in fees, international education is the third biggest export source of income for australia, there is nothing charitable about this. and criticising a government policy does not equal criticising a country, unless you think everything your government has done is perfectly beautiful

        • ozhunter on 29/07/2015 - 22:09
          +24

          @Spackbace:

          Uh, they pay for it…

          on the basis that you were going to take any skills and any earnings back to your home country.

          Would you rather international students stay?

        • redforever on 29/07/2015 - 22:19
          +101

          @Spackbace:
          International students actually pay to utilise the facilities. In some courses, they actually subsidize local student place due to funding cuts.

          People need to appreciate the economy benefits international students bring to Australia.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 30/07/2015 - 00:04
          +14

          @redforever:
          Some of that may be true red, but the fact is that nowadays many faculties and some entire universities view 'normal' students (i.e. those who got into the course on merit) as more of an economic inconvenience (a drain on resources) than anything else, while international students are blatantly acknowledged as the cash-cows they are (no offense OP). Generally, the number of 'normal' student places available for any given course has remained relatively stable over the years; almost all of the substantial 'expansion' that has occurred has been by way of creating more full-fee-paying places; invariably for international students.
          A particularly bad side-effect of all this is the devaluing of Australian degrees that will inevitably occur over time, because there is strong pressure put on assessors to pass international students, even if their work is not up to scratch (or indeed, entirely absent). In order to avoid having a blatantly two-tiered system re the academic standards required to pass (which would be completely farcical), the 'normal' students are generally now also passed, even if their work is not up to scratch; they have to be otherwise they would cry foul.

          People need to appreciate that while the Australian economy currently benefits from international students, this does not come at no cost. Generally speaking, the 'economic pressure' to retain them in their courses until they graduate regardless of their actual ability, effort or performance, has resulted in severe erosion of the standard of work required to obtain university degrees.

        • RyanMK on 30/07/2015 - 01:46
          +11

          @GnarlyKnuckles:

          Valid points, and I agree. But that itself is not the fault of international students, no? Not the fault of local students too, more towards the fault with the education system itself.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 30/07/2015 - 02:04

          @RyanMK:
          I agree with you 100% that neither international students nor local students are to blame for the current situation. Even ascribing the problem to 'the education system' could be a bit of an over-simplification… it's a really complex problem, affected by supply-and-demand, international economics, successive Australian governments/their policies (beyond just education policies), the 'ethics' of individual university 'decision-makers' (for want of a better word), to name just a few.

          How to 'fix' the problem? I'm not sure it can be fixed, now that the genie is out of the bottle. Quite a few years ago a Melbourne Uni tried to halt the decline in 'pass-standards' by creating a split system, of sorts; they spent millions setting up a sort of 'second campus' specifically for full-fee-paying students only. While it was never explicitly stated, the general idea was clearly to apply a different set of assessment standards at the courses run at this 'sister campus', such that as long as the students attended, they passed; then left the country with their "Australian" degree.

          As was arguably quite foreseeable, it was a monumental failure. No one wanted to pay to study there (of course everyone wanted to study at the 'real' campus, alongside the local students), and no one wanted to teach there because it was viewed as something of an "academic farce". The entire thing was wound up less than 2 years after it was established.

        • Lysander on 30/07/2015 - 09:25
          +1

          And you know how that the OP is coming from such a country?
          I have met a lot of students from England having the same problems. Those people got degrees from Unis such as Durham, Oxford, Warwick etc. in England and obviously come from a country with a higher level of education than Australia. Their reasons for wanting to stay a while are very diverse but most often it is because their Australian partner cannot or does not want to leave. And no, they do not want to get married or claim de facto just to get a visa. That should not be necessary, especially if the government then just changes the rules.

          However,

          I think the OP has also got his or her facts wrong. According to my knowledge, the government has made it easier to stay. I you never had a student visa before November 2010, you can then stay and work in Australia for 4 years after completion of your degree whereas before it was 18 months provided your occupation is on the skills list. But maybe he or she is on a different type of visa where conditions are slightly different

          This is the other problem - with all those rule changes and endless types of visas the immigration people often get it wrong and then it is really difficult to get them to admit they have made a mistake and reverse their decision.

          Did you no that if immigration officers make a decision regarding refunds of application fees, there is no way to appeal it (stipulated by law)? One is completely at the mercy of one's particular case worker and he or she gets it wrong, tough luck. You cannot appeal at all, not even to a court.

          Now that is what I call a country built on the principles of transparency, fairness, and just process.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 30/07/2015 - 12:37

          @Lysander:
          Did you read the thread before posting?

          "And you know how that the OP is coming from such a country?"

          While it's not clear what you mean by 'such a country', or what prompted you to ask this curiously worded question, the OP states that they contemplated Australia, the UK and the US…

          "… provided your occupation is on the skills list."

          The OP clearly states that their occupation/degree is not on the skills list.

        • Lysander on 30/07/2015 - 15:25
          +12

          @GnarlyKnuckles:

          For all we know the OP could be from the Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, France, Germany - need I go on?
          It is not a foregone conclusion that the OP is necessarily from a country with a lower level of education.
          Maybe the decisive factor to pick Australia over the US was the right to work after (it certainly was not the costs)?
          Who knows?

          Now your occupation does not have to be on the Skills list.
          Before it did - this is where the OP got his or her facts wrong I think. It is my understanding that the condition of being on the skills lists has been there for a long time. I certainly have several friends in the same situation (visa before Nov 2010 when the change was made, they can stay for 18 months provided the job is on the SOL list.

          It is amazing though how many people here would condone the government changing rules retrospectively. But I have learned that this is only the case as long as they are not affected. If they are, they get furious. But if they don't many people would not stand up against injustice which clearly would be the case assuming the OP got the facts right.

          Very strange.

          P.S.: To those people getting upset about people with education wanting to stay here. Do you prefer the implementation of a recent government suggestion to abolish the points based system in favour of a buy-in system ($50000 and you are in regardless of your education, skills, and usefulness to the country's economy). I am sure that is much better, isn't it???

        • antzz on 30/07/2015 - 17:09
          +4

          @GnarlyKnuckles: Wow just a very ignorant comment. I bet you to look at all the record there is on University Medalist in all uni in Australia. I bet you 70 - 80% of those are international student! How come that international student get advantage of marking when their work are not upto scratch. How the hell does the marker (usually phd student) / lecturer knows which one is Australian / PR or International Student. If you really go to uni, you can see that almost all International student can do first year uni without hard study because we learned that in our high school year. Really ignorant comment

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 30/07/2015 - 18:43
          -1

          @antzz:
          Wow, just a very logistically flawed comment that clearly demonstrates your inherent bias. You are looking at the very high achievers ('medalists')—a very tiny proportion of the total university student population—and assuming they are somehow representative of the majority of international students. I can assure you that is not the case, and I have first-hand experience at being basically instructed to employ whatever sort of 'creative interpretation' that I have to, to pass full-fee-paying students rather than failing them.

          You don't have to take my word for it though. The problem was 'exposed' on a recent documentary on the ABC, and you could simply ask anyone who currently tutors/lectures uni students/ is responsible for passing or failing them, and has been in that job for at least 10 years. They will confirm that what I am saying is not "ignorant" or false; in fact it's common knowledge. If you read what I wrote properly, you will discover that I said that international students don't get any advantage over local students re marking; everyone is now marked via a generally lower standard than used to be applied.

          You need to avail yourself of some facts antzz, rather than coming at this from a subjective opinion that in general full-fee-paying international students (not the ones on scholarships; of course they are high achievers) are somehow academically superior to their local peers. That is most definitely not the case, on average.

        • Lysander on 30/07/2015 - 19:16
          +19

          @GnarlyKnuckles:

          Sorry but you are really ignorant.

          I have degrees from all of two European countries but yet I came to Australia for a degree, to experience a different focus (Asia Pacific), and then to be with my partner.

          You are basically admitting that Australian education is only attractive to people with a low education and that they hence can basically buy their degree due to the low standards at Australian unis.
          Those people come to Oz as they would not get into a decent uni elsewhere - that is what you are saying.

          When I mark, many Australian students are not up to scratch, especially when it comes to English. Many international students know the grammar much better than Aussies. Most Australians I have come across and still come across at uni would not get into an average European or US university. Unfortunately that is a hard fact. How else can the almost 50% rate of illiteracy and innumeracy in Tasmania be explained, in a country with so many supposedly great unis and easy access to them. Yes, it is true. Feel free to check with the relevant authorities in Tasmania and people who live there.

        • nikey2k27 on 30/07/2015 - 20:44
          -4

          @spiderman3fan: You have right to be pissed off about This. i feel lots of international student get rip off sold a dream. if product i want refund. I know I live in house full of oversea student we had many good time good food good drinks see many of them in home oversea.

        • virhlpool on 30/07/2015 - 21:50
          +5

          @spiderman3fan: I have a simple argument. If you had done some research before coming here, I assume that you knew that Australian education isn't among the best in the world AND admission criteria are really easy (just IELTS and no tough exams such as SAT, GRE or GMAT for most of the programs/ schools - no wonder you came through a broker rather than exploring the system yourself) AND international education is an industry here. You probably also knew that there're hardly any industries here except dairy, education, tourism, agriculture and mining and job prospects are extremely limited. Despite all this, you still decided to come here to study. I am surprised now you are criticizing the whole system after being an integral part of it yourself.

          Nothing against international students, in particular, but they along with some locals, often exploit the loopholes in the country's education and immigration systems. Unfortunately, education and immigration also happen to be the country's important earning sources and economic drivers, so the country can't do much about it. But why don't international students raise their voice when they see things being apparently exploited? For example, plenty of waiters (so-called 'restaurant managers') being sponsored for 457 work visa by their employers (in most cases the settled immigrants) in return of money. This isn't really a highly skilled profession and visa isn't meant for such professions. We have enough local people who can serve those positions. This is just one example and I can give you many. Many international colleges bring extremely low-quality international students just to make money outta their fees and it seriously damages the perception and standards of our education system. Some international students choose to be a part of such exploitations of the system rather than raising a voice for the right. When we are talking about what's right and what's wrong, I expect some positive contribution from international students towards these things too. Sad!

        • Lysander on 30/07/2015 - 22:16
          +13

          @GnarlyKnuckles:

          It is great to see how many friends you make in the thread (and other threads).

          So you say "…you could ask anybody who tutors/marks students….." but when I am actually one of those people and disagree with your assertion, you start personal attacks.

          You attack so many people, and whenever somebody says you disagree with those people are "pathetic", "don't express themselves clearly enough", "have a flaw in their logic".

          You keep saying people like antzz need to get facts. How about you get some and accept that your experience might be very different from those of other people. I have been marking and tutoring students at university for 15 years (not all of it in Australia but long enough in Australia) and it is my experience that many international students get better results than domestic students because they work harder, have a strong will to succeed, and in many cases have a better general education than domestic students, especially if those students are from the US or Europe.

          I am not lowering myself to your level and engage in your "this could be clearer BS". You know exactly what is meant - you either pretend not to get it or are just out to troll and provoke. Or if you really do not know then maybe some mental facilities are not working as they should.

          P.S.: You will respond anyway as you need to have the last word - all the time. And you have obviously way too much time on your hands. Maybe you should use that time to prepare better tutorials or lectures to raise the standards of your students if you really are a tutor/marker at an university.

        • MkVIGTI on 30/07/2015 - 23:27
          +5

          @GnarlyKnuckles:

          How can you tell if the student you're marking is international student or local student? Do you just assume by their names or do you actually look them up in the system before you mark them?

        • Lysander on 31/07/2015 - 00:29
          +4

          @MkVIGTI:

          Don't mind Gnarlyknuckles - always trying to provoke and being a troll.
          Probably looks up if it is an international student and then marks them down on purpose. Would fit with GK's attitude here.

        • Lysander on 31/07/2015 - 00:38
          +1

          @GnarlyKnuckles:

          See, you could not resist. Got you.

          P.S.: I think you should take your own advice and read things more thoroughly. Free legal adviser to Scotty or Ozbargain? Phhh, yeah right!
          When people here stop bullying that might happen so in all reality NEVER.

          Oh, and since that post I have had the sad "honour" to settle another two cases where people were pursued/"reprimanded" for offering legal advice without law degrees. So much for that topic.

          And I bet you will reply again as you got nothing better to do.

          You just continue trolling. That is a great amusement every time to my office and colleagues, both in legal practice and academia.

          P.S.:Maybe spend some more time with your "friends" in real life rather than marking down international students. ;-) Or another crazy idea: maybe help them succeed for a change.
          Ha, ha, ha.

        • Lysander on 31/07/2015 - 00:41
          +1

          @virhlpool:

          Great summary of the situation.

          The only problem is that all students, including the domestic students, suffer from the ever decreasing education standards and that is not good for the future of Australia as without change most of Australia's young population will have no usable and competitive skills in the near future.

        • virhlpool on 31/07/2015 - 00:54

          @GnarlyKnuckles: I agree. Your example is a rare one, but what about unis and colleges which are themselves a 'second campus' only with no 'first/ main campus' in existence at all? ;-)

        • apey2000 on 31/07/2015 - 00:55

          I have no idea what you said, but I like you! You get a + from me for being so whack!

          @nikey2k27:

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 31/07/2015 - 01:31
          +4

          @MkVIGTI:
          As a tutor in the field I'm in, you get to know your students very rapidly. The tute groups are quite small, and everyone in the group knows exactly where everyone else is from/when etc. by about the second session of the semester (i.e. 'week 2'). This is in part because a substantial component of the tutorials/course-work involves them getting into small groups in the first couple of sessions, and solving problems together/ sharing their experiences/ knowledge in the field; then each small 'sub-group' presents their collective solutions to the problems/questions posed to the entire tute group. Every student must do at least some of the presenting; and they are marked on their ability to present, and their ability to field questions about what they are presenting. As you can probably appreciate, in these circumstances it's obvious almost immediately who is an international student, and who is not. Not always for the same reasons, but it's always obvious. By that I mean sometimes it's because their English is terrible, while other times it's because it's old-fashioned but grammatically perfect, and spoken with a distinct UK (for example) accent, despite the speaker being of Indian (for example) appearance. So re the latter, it's obvious they've learned it from a text-book/etc., not via years of conversation at school in Australia.

          I should add though, that it's also very easy to tell just based on written responses to exam questions; even if I don't look at the names and/or student numbers.

          The students who've done their high-schooling in Australia write in a certain way; generally very confident with the language in general (happy to provide a lengthy 'babbling' response to an exam question, for example), but often very hit-and-miss re grammar (I should add that the correctness of their grammar is not taken into consideration when marking their exams, as long as their meaning is completely clear). They will often 'babble on' in response to an exam question.

          Conversely, the international students fall reliably into two quite different categories. Either they write impeccably/flawlessly (grammar, spelling, the lot), or they are terrible, and try to answer every written question in as few words as possible.

          Anyways, I could say more and I'm happy to elaborate if you're interested, but this post is getting quite long so I'll leave it here for now. I felt compelled to answer your question though, because earlier in the thread someone implied that what I was saying was not plausible, because it would not be possible for markers to know who was an international student and who was not, when marking coursework. The fact is it's obvious, almost from the very start, at least in my field. Which is a very different field to Lysmo's; I would personally be interested to know if he also knows by about week 2 who is an international student and who is not, and whether it is based on similar observations/factors.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 31/07/2015 - 05:06
          -2

          …

        • mp3police on 31/07/2015 - 08:01
          +1

          @spiderman3fan: i don't think many people think much of our government

        • frostman on 31/07/2015 - 08:16

          @Lysander: Dude, stop beating around the bush, we all know the OP is most likely from some Asian/South Asian background.

          Your example of people from the US comming to study or from Switzerland are not unheard of, but the vast majority of these Int Students are from the Asian district, lets just be clear and stop this 'elephant in the room' business

          [@GnarlyKnuckles] > People need to appreciate that while the Australian economy currently benefits from international students, this does not come at no cost. Generally speaking, the 'economic pressure' to retain them in their courses until they graduate regardless of their actual ability, effort or performance, has resulted in severe erosion of the standard of work required to obtain university degrees.

          Totally agree, im sick of hearing the same people parroting mantras like "The Int Students stimulate the economy"

        • Bot456 on 31/07/2015 - 08:27
          +1

          By the way I am sure that education provided to OP wasn't free. Challenging someone legally doesn't make them culprit.

        • littleDealFish on 31/07/2015 - 16:05

          @Lysander:

          Interesting! I had to look it up, as I am from Tasmania originally and I found my education to be very good. In fact UTAS scores very high - 11th best Uni in Australia.

          If anything, QLD seems to be way worse off - most people in my classes at uni could barely spell let alone use grammar correctly!

        • abh_gup on 31/07/2015 - 22:27
          +2

          @cloudy: The Aussie government WAS and IS selling visas. In 2006, I attended to seminars and exhibitions held by Uni of Queensland, backed by Queensland government, in Calcutta, India, where it was pretty much 'Marketing'. In 2011, I saw a campaign (Study Australia) in Kathmandu. Many people (whom the idea/dream was sold to) were induced: of those, few got lucky… but many do now feel stitched up by the government.

        • rodinthink on 31/07/2015 - 23:31
          -2

          @spiderman3fan:

          he terk his gerbs
          he tok heris orbsa
          %#@!&^&!%$()!@%!(@)!@

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 01/08/2015 - 02:45
          -1

          @Lysander:
          "Free legal adviser?!? There you go again, erroneously ascribing statements you've invented yourself to me, then proceeding to refute them. Do you legitimately think no one will notice when you do this, or do you just not care that it's obvious? Anyways, enough with the trivialities, I'd like your opinion on this piece that was kindly brought to my attention by Woolfenstein, below (if you can spare the time):

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2831658/Universities…

        • foxmulder on 01/08/2015 - 10:46

          @spiderman3fan: halfway my master degree i got my residence visa and after that I pay the same amount of uni fees in master degree only the difference is that I used hecs so that I didn't have to pay. So its not true that international student pay more.

        • iridiumstem on 01/08/2015 - 11:00
          +1

          @foxmulder: This is so not true. I pay around 1.5 ~ 2 times more than my girlfriend. Tuition fee for international students are higher from primary school onwards as far as I know (from what I've seen since primary school). That said, this is a common thing that's pretty much done in most of the countries, as far as I know.

        • ClawShrimp on 01/08/2015 - 11:39
          +1

          @Lysander: This is exactly what I was about say. The rules have shifted in favour of, not away from flexibility. The Post Study Work Visa (PSWV) would be ideal for this student; but due to the timing of his entry he does not qualify. Given the visa framework that was in place when the student arrived in Australia, he'd have no reasonable expectation to be able to stay on post-study and work.

        • ClawShrimp on 01/08/2015 - 11:41

          @AznMitch: This is true. Student visa holders pay considerably more than domestic students. The only 'international' students that are eligible for domestic school visa (primary and high school, not university) are sublclass 457 visa holders.

        • iridiumstem on 01/08/2015 - 11:57
          +1

          @ClawShrimp: I graduated from a high school in Australia. Even though I've moved in and out, I've spent my time in Australia since grade 6. I've probably had both visas.

        • pxrnm on 01/08/2015 - 16:03

          @GnarlyKnuckles: whoaa big words for so many negs…

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 01/08/2015 - 22:52

          @pxrnm:

          "whoaa big words for so many negs…"

          Evidently you are yet to avail yourself of basic numeracy px, as at the time of writing I have more positive votes than negative votes in this thread.

          Besides, it's irrelevant. Do you think I visit these forums and participate in them seeking validation that my opinions are shared by the majority of other users? Is that why you come here?

        • cloudy on 02/08/2015 - 09:38
          +1

          @abh_gup:

          Sorry but ur wrong. The QLD uni doesn't have a right to represent the Australian govt, the QLD state govt doesn't have a right to represent the Australian govt.
          if there are spruikers, whom seem reputable, and u are fooled by it. That is a big issue. But it doesn't mean the Australian govt has to honour the fake spruiks.

          But yes, the Australian does sell visa. But not to OP in this situation.

          As I said, if they did, why isn't it in writing, and if it is in writing, why doesn't he sue?

        • pxrnm on 02/08/2015 - 10:06
          -3

          @GnarlyKnuckles: lol chill dude, why so sensitive 😁 ok don't cry honey i'll give you a positive too.

        • melfes on 02/08/2015 - 10:49
          +1

          @GnarlyKnuckles:curious whats a stirling track record?

          BTW your opinion is incisive and very intelligent but if less the bit of harshness and pride I and many others can agree with most of what you said more happily. And personally yes, apart from your personal emotion thats also what I ve perceived on the problems of EDU here and with Itnl students. But its such a tricky one as every party involved to various degrees can be held reaponsible (students gov parents schools even brokers). The whole EDU thing is a merchandise and almost the entire sales team is makreting unethically in a way or so. Sophisticated Gov polocies, visas, uni campaigns and promises vs naive consumers (parents, teens to early adults), whats happened is not really surprising but truely sad. Continuing so the economy will be self regulated when the values of AUS degrees drop to rock bottom,or when the Asian countries pick up. All in all the current Uni system across the global is not very effective nor practical in providing participants with job security and real life skills. Afew yrs of work experiences do more of that than via sitting in a classroom.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 02/08/2015 - 18:00
          -1

          @pxrnm:
          Awww, thanks px! I gave you a neg; for balance.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 02/08/2015 - 19:51

          @melfes:

          Hi melfes, thank you for your kind words, and I will bear your constructive criticisms in mind in the future (unless of course I am responding to someone who’s been a real d*ick ;). In answer to your question

          “curious whats a stirling track record?”

          I was mainly referring to a memorable thread a couple of months ago, in which Lysander gave an OP little bit of legal advice, then proceeded to get extremely defensive/insecure when others also dared to venture an opinion on the matter. It started to go downhill for him when he told the mods they “… should prohibit legal topics here just to cover your backsides and protect your users.”
          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/189076#comment-2666040

          He went on to pick out specific people (myself included) and attempt to ‘intimidate’ (some would say ‘bully’, but personally I believe that word is over-used these days) them into not posting their thoughts on any legal matters in the future; including via the mention of specific legal Acts:
          “I sincerely hope that RolandWaites and nickster 9999 are legally qualified as it seems very strongly that those posts constitute some kind of legal advice.
          See Legal Profession Act 2007 in Queensland or the equivalent in other states.”
          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/189076?page=1#comment-2667…

          Understandably, this really got people’s noses out of joint, and he ended up fighting with about 10 different Ozbargainers. Some of them were lawyers, and they assured fellow-OzBargainers that what Lysander was saying was basically scare-mongering/ a huge pile of BS, and that it was fine for non-lawyers to share opinions and experiences on legal situations, provided they didn’t misrepresent themselves as lawyers, or charge for their advice. It seemed to dawn on Lysander at some point that he had essentially opened up a giant can of whoop-ass on himself, and he tried to back-pedal a bit by making the bizarre suggestion that people should consult Google for legal advice. Of course this provoked the ridicule it deserved, and accusations that Lysander must be some kind of ‘pseudo lawyer’. His response was far from considered and decidedly retaliatory, and he proceeded to just dig himself in deeper:
          “Heard of Google Scholar? Maybe try that. Many direct links into Austlii. Maybe re-evaluate who the pseudo-lawyer is”
          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/189076?page=1#comment-2671…

          So it was not Lysanders “proudest moments” that played out in this protracted thread, in which he ended up being derided by a host of fellow ozbargainers, some of whom were also lawyers and denounced his posts as rubbish, in their professional opinions. Now, I’m not saying that I myself have never said silly things on this site; I do so rather frequently, usually in misguided attempts at humour that are not recognised as such. What I am saying is that it is a bit rich for someone recently responsible for the exchanges in the thread I’ve alluded to above (i.e. inciting the angst and ridicule of a swathe of OzBargainers, some of them his professional peers) to open a reply to me with:

          “It is great to see how many friends you make in the thread (and other threads).”
          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/204933#comment-2941421

          That is clearly the pot calling the kettle black.

          TLDR: Thank you for your tactfully worded constructive criticism melfes, which I will definitely bear in mind in the future, and what I meant by the statement you allude to in your question was that ‘people who live in glass houses should not throw stones’.

        • melfes on 02/08/2015 - 21:18

          @GnarlyKnuckles: err dude well first of all thanks for your willingness in taking up the considerations and even more so in explaining the background. But I was actually only curious of the phrase "Stirling record" as i couldn't find out myself and the fact i have learnt quite a few words in your write up.. sorry i should have been more specific

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 02/08/2015 - 22:42

          @melfes:
          Chuckle, that's hilarious! It should have been 'STERLING'; which is no doubt why you found the wording a bit cryptic/ could not ascertain the meaning of it:

          Sterling (adjective) = (of a person or their work or qualities) excellent or valuable.

          Re 'I should have been more specific', don't worry, most of that lengthy response I posted to your comment was cut-n-pasted from text I'd already generated for a 'PM' discussion I had with another user some time ago.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 02/08/2015 - 23:02

          @GnarlyKnuckles:
          Far out, two negs just for three dots?

          I smell a rat! "SSSSSSSSS" (Morse-code joke)

        • melfes on 03/08/2015 - 00:02
          +2

          @GnarlyKnuckles: gold…nah sterling

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 03/08/2015 - 00:20
          -1

          @melfes:
          LOL, you're exhibiting quite a SILVER TONGUE, for someone who claims to be still learning re vocab'…

      • Lysander on 30/07/2015 - 09:16
        +8

        What is wrong with this? Australia wants the people to go home or do you think it wants the millions of students, mainly from low education Asian countries to all stay here? In fact, to improve the situation in many countries in Asia and Africa, the people are required to go home. Australia supports this heavily through programmes such as AusAid.

        The real question is: should the government be bale to change rules unilaterally once people have relied on their previous promises to their detriment (e.g. made a monetary investment etc.).

        Would you be happy if the government decided to change your income tax rate retrospectively, after you have finely balanced out your tax declaration to minimise tax?

        I am sure most people here would be furious if that happened.

        • nikey2k27 on 30/07/2015 - 20:47

          Went they do go home good have bit of Aus job on their CV. help them get top level job in home.

        • apey2000 on 31/07/2015 - 23:58

          LOL you said wat!?!? Oh wait.. it's nikey! How are you dude? :D Love your work mate! :)

      • sunarde on 31/07/2015 - 14:35
        +2

        Just saying even if they did work and brought some money home…

        They are still taxed.. (higher than usual)

        They pay for normal living expenses like rent and entertainment facilities

        They bring in tourism (families visiting or returning home and telling everyone how wonderful Australia is) *underrated but important

        They paid for the course? Full fee

      • save my dollarydoos on 01/08/2015 - 13:49

        A lot of people study and work abroad before returning home including australians. I imagine this lends in their favour as it demonstrates that person able to pursue and achieve their goals outside their comfort zone

        How is this any different?

    • [Deactivated] on 30/07/2015 - 12:14
      +1

      Ja. Rorting the system.

    • Davo1111 on 30/07/2015 - 12:59

      i disagree, i hate it when rules are changed retrospectively.

      For example, learner licensing changes in NSW is phased in.

  • [Deactivated] on 29/07/2015 - 20:34

    Are you talking about the Temporary resident visa? You might want to talk to a migration agent.

    • spiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 20:56
      +4

      thanks, even if that might help (which it probably won't, as the immigration department is explicitly clear on this), for me this is just as much about the principle than the visa itself. I shouldn't have to be going through loopholes and doing tricks in order to get what was guaranteed to me when i applied. What i guess i should start learning is how to start pursuing this legally, any sane court of law would side with me.

      • spackbace on 29/07/2015 - 21:02
        +3

        any sane court of law would side with me.

        So it's obvious you didn't study law.

        Political policies change constantly, can be retrospective as well. Same goes with any country.

        Don't like it, I believe there's a door around here somewhere :)

        • spiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 21:07
          -7

          so if the government came and took your house whose title deed you paid for tomorrow and put it down to 'change of policy' you would just be cool with that?

        • spackbace on 29/07/2015 - 21:08
          +17

          @spiderman3fan:

          Wow… Did you major in Drama and the Arts by any chance?

        • spiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 21:13
          +5

          @Spackbace:

          Thanks for addressing the question

        • spackbace on 29/07/2015 - 21:14
          +12

          @spiderman3fan:

          My apologies, I didn't think your ridiculous question was a real question

        • PVA on 29/07/2015 - 21:16

          @spiderman3fan:

          But thats not why they have done.

          lots of changes happen all the time, we thought we were getting Superannuation increases but a budget or two later it was canned.

          I am sure you can get an internship at some other country - USA, UK that can help you.

        • DealzEddy123 on 30/07/2015 - 11:53
          +2

          @Spackbace: so what did you study?

        • ausmechkeyboards on 30/07/2015 - 13:15
          +28

          @Spackbace:

          So basically you dropped out in year 9 and your biggest achievement in life so far has been holding the microphone at a "ban Halal foods" protest. About right.

        • tomleonhart on 30/07/2015 - 13:24
          +2

          @Spackbace: "I studied Bullshit Analysis, with a major in Smart-Assery at the School of Hard Knocks".

          LOL. You'll need those for car buyers these days!

        • DealzEddy123 on 30/07/2015 - 13:25

          @Spackbace: ooops I was asking OP. but yeh whatever

        • spackbace on 30/07/2015 - 13:27
          -1

          @tomleonhart:

          Stalker :P

        • happydude on 30/07/2015 - 13:43
          +1

          @spiderman3fan: They can only do that "on just terms" under the constitution.

          Definitely hasn't seen The Castle. Claims of not being Australian checks out.

        • tomleonhart on 30/07/2015 - 13:52

          @Spackbace: Just a good memory from reading your previous comment!

        • mskeggs on 30/07/2015 - 15:11
          +9

          @spiderman3fan:
          I think it is rough that you were expecting a further visa but the rules have changed, but yes, the government does make changes like this all the time.
          The example you gave regarding resuming land is called eminent domain. The Commonwealth government is obliged to compensate you in such and instance, state governments are not - but they typically do. I can't give a citation except from a conversation with a lawyer friend who felt it was ridiculous.

          I am sympathetic to your position, and I guess you could possibly mount a legal challenge, but remember the government you would be suing are the people that write the laws, and they have a virtually unlimited legal budget. And they appoint the judges.

          So I wouldn't hold high hopes of success, even though the change does appear a bit unfair.

        • TheBird on 30/07/2015 - 17:54

          @spiderman3fan:

          You aren't aware of resumption/compulsory acquisition (more known as Eminent Domain) laws? It's exactly that.

        • Grillman on 30/07/2015 - 18:22
          +1

          @spiderman3fan:

          He doesn't know how to address anything, he only knows how to distance himself in a cowardly manor.

        • spackbace on 30/07/2015 - 19:11
          -2

          @Grillman:

          Yes, because arguing on the internet isn't cowardly?

        • [Deactivated] on 31/07/2015 - 11:01
          +1

          @spiderman3fan: Forced buy backs. Happens all the time when they want to build infrastructure etc.

        • omniX32 on 31/07/2015 - 13:29
          +2

          @spiderman3fan: It's called a Compulsory Acquisition and the government does this often. http://www.finance.gov.au/property/lands-acquisition/compuls…

        • rodinthink on 31/07/2015 - 23:32

          @Spackbace:
          Dey terk er gerbs

      • GnarlyKnuckles on 29/07/2015 - 21:29
        +17

        "I shouldn't … (blah blah) to get what was guaranteed to me when I applied.

        What makes you think it was "guaranteed"? What is the wording of the text that made you think it was "guaranteed"? Clearly it was not guaranteed. My guess is that you have misread something, or read it with 'rose coloured glasses'; in other words, you've interpreted it to mean what you wanted it to mean, rather than carefully reading what it actually said.

        ERGO, you should have been more careful about what you were basing your decisions on, way back when you decided to study here. It's telling that you have only just now become aware of something that evidently had a dramatic effect on you, two years after the fact.

        While I don't know what you've based your assumption that you were "guaranteed" something on, my guess is that you were never guaranteed anything. Therefore your sense of entitlement and wailing and gnashing of teeth amidst claims for compensation are completely misguided.

        • spackbace on 29/07/2015 - 21:37
          +4

          Well put :)

          Just re-read the OP:

          I feel cheated and i'm determined to get some compensation.

          Wow…!

        • spiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 21:57
          -3

          you believe in consumer protections i'm assuming. so you agree that if an important drawback of a product is stated, but not made reasonably apparent to comsumer, then that is illegal and breach of trust? what's the difference here? it should be made clear that 'x might change' or 'x might be relinquished'. And stop with the entitlement talk, you act like australia is the only place in the world where one can get a good tertiary education, you don't think having known this i might have chosen the UK or US, who are just as eager to take my inflated fees.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 29/07/2015 - 22:19

          @spiderman3fan:

          "… so you agree that if an important drawback of a product is stated, but not made reasonably apparent to consumer, then that is illegal and breach of trust…"

          That does not make sense, because if something is stated, then it is "reasonably apparent to the consumer"; provided that the consumer bothers to read the terms of the agreement they are entering into.

          So no, there is nothing illegal here, there is no breach of trust, and you are not entitled to any "compensation". Just out of interest, what sort of figure did you have in mind re this compensation? Your tuition fees back? Half your tuition fees back? That would be tens of thousands of dollars either way, that you'd be expecting the Australian tax-payer to give to you. I'm assuming that you are aware that Australians also pay tens of thousands for their uni degrees? If they cannot afford to pay up front, they do so by way of incurring a massive debt ('HECS') that they then pay back over many years. That's another reason why it's laughable that you think you are entitled to receive money from the Australian tax-payer to 'compensate' you for the fact that you may not be allowed to stay here for an additional 2 years after getting your degree, earning money to take home.

          What did you study btw? Perhaps if you tell us that, someone may be able to offer you some advice that might actually be useful.

        • spiderman3fan on 29/07/2015 - 22:52
          +6

          @GnarlyKnuckles:

          isn't that one of the major reasons that consumer protections exist, so that if a company does something that is technically legal but in practice unfair they can't get away with it by simply stating 'we have met all legal obligations'. As far as compensation, i would certainly like a huge chunk of my fees back, and if you think that what a local student pays is expensive multiply that by four and take away the loan option and that's what we have. that is why there is nothing 'entitled' about this, my parents have spent a huge amount of money and contributed thousands of dollars to this economy, and if we did that believing that there was an opportunity at the end to gain a little experience, not settle here, then i feel that should be honored.

          I don't see how it might help, but i studied economics and advertsing

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 29/07/2015 - 23:36

          @spiderman3fan:
          You have not provided a scrap of evidence that anything you've 'suffered' was "in practice unfair". It's becoming increasingly apparent that you simply failed to do your research properly; refer to "redforever's" post below, for example.

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