MSY declares Torrents illegal

dosada on 26/03/2015 - 16:46

I have purchased in June last year a TP Link WN8200ND WiFi adapter. I did not need it straight away and just started using it this February.

When browsing the internet the adapter works fine. When downloading something with over 60 Mbit/s the card most of the time crashes. As soon as i start uTorrent the card for sure crashes.

I have reported this problem to the retailer i purchased it from, in this case MSY. I was nicely explained that uTorrent is illegal and that the adapter is not meant for that. I was shocked but the highlight was when i said that the card also crashes when under heavy load, such as copying files from one PC to another PC at full speed.

The store rep answered that this is normal, when you buy a car that can drive 200 km/h you don't do it all the time either and that this are just maximum values.

Please someone explain to me if i am wring fir expecting my Wifi adapter to be able to handle utorrent or copy files at full speed without freezing up the whole computer.

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Comments

  • unicorn888 on 26/03/2015 - 16:49
    +44

    Never heard wifi adapter broken because of downloading at full speed

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 16:53

      It is not broken, it just freezes the whole computer.

      • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2015 - 21:51

        Their analogy is stupid. With a car you can control how fast it goes, you cannot do the same with a network card.

      • jaybo on 30/03/2015 - 11:04
        +1

        cheap usb network cards offload the processing to the CPU so when you thrash them hard they will slow down (probably shouldnt be making your PC hang though)

        utorrent is horrible for network devices as it opens so many connections, i've seen a lot of consumer grade adsl/cable routers pack up & die from torrenting, they'll certainly cause traffic issues if you have too many connections open… it's all about the amount of connections, not necessarily the speed at which it's transferring the data.

        saying that utorrent is illegal is pretty crap though. it's not. granted 99% of the time it's used to download things illegally, but it's not the program or the concept of torrents which is the illegal bit.

        all that being said, dont expect the maximum values from your wifi's speed rating to actually apply, they always advertise things like "300mbit" - but that is so dependent on about 10 different things (i won't go too deep into explanation on it) that it's almost never achievable.

        somewhere between 11 and 54mbit is a reasonable speed to expect from home wifi, if you need to be pushing a lot more data, run a long cable - there's really no substitute for a good bit of copper (well there's fibre, but that's a whole different story!)

    • hellbound on 26/03/2015 - 17:08
      +29

      Agreed, sounds like a faulty card and MSY are trying to weasel out of it. I assume you've tried updating drivers.

    • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2015 - 18:33

      My parent's Telstra cable modem does the same thing.

      • educalifa on 28/03/2015 - 19:07
        +1

        it's not the cable modem, it's the integrated wifi router. Reason I know that is cause I have the same crappy device. Bought a new asus router and connected it to the modem, no more crashes! Plus internet speed over wifi went from 11Mb/s to 29Mb/s. Happiness all around.

  • pjetson on 26/03/2015 - 16:55
    +1

    I think your expectation is reasonable. However, have you tried downloading the latest drivers?

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 17:03
      +1

      Yes, newest drivers are installed and there is no firmware update available.

  • highon2str on 26/03/2015 - 16:57
    +2

    which MSY is this. lol…

    Try the adapter on another computer to see if you can replicate the problem moving files.

    Also make sure you have the latest firmware for the adapter and the latest driver for the computer.

    Also make sure you're plugging the adapter straight into your computer and not via a hub or extension lead.

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 17:03

      Purchased in Dandenong, but the statement is from Brooklyn store.

      Done all of that. The "newest" driver is over a year old and there has never been a frimware update.

      • yacman on 28/03/2015 - 15:34
        +1

        That store have a nice staff member who is influenced by an older "natzi" like, arrogant staff member who seeems to take pleasure in treating customers unfairly and as though they have some kind of moral high ground because…their job is essentially a checkout chick??

  • iridiumstem on 26/03/2015 - 17:06
    +30

    Torrenting itself isn't illegal, there are legal uses like distribution of game patches, free softwares etc.

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 17:52
      +3

      That is exactly what I said and offered to name few companies which distribute stuff legally over the torrent network. Let alone what I mainly use are phone roms. I don't violate any law by downloading roms

      • iridiumstem on 26/03/2015 - 18:59
        +11

        I think the salesman didn't know what he was talking about and/or they didn't want to go through the whole refund process. His analogy is stupid. Even if the "full speed" is something that it can reach, you don't expect it to crash after it reaches that speed. With his analogy it would be the engine always failing after reaching 200km/hr. It just sound like a faulty product to me.

        • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 21:57
          +2

          Unfortunately the TP link forums are full with similar complaints. Seems to be a well known issue but they think being rude will solve the issue.

        • iridiumstem on 26/03/2015 - 23:23
          +2

          @dosada: Tell them that you've got a faulty unit? :S I don't know, just tell them that it crashes all the time. If it is a common problem, I think you'd be better off with a refund and get something else… Though I am not sure whether you can do that.

      • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2015 - 23:44
        +10

        sometimes it's best not to go into too much detail. My adapter doesn't work it's faulty will suffice…and just keep saying "it just doesn't work"

        • jeffr on 29/03/2015 - 13:38

          The old "intermittent" fault is always a good line to try. "it worked this morning after I turned it on, then it completely stopped working". It's very hard to prove and insist on a replacement unit/refund under fair trading policy.

    • woz on 27/03/2015 - 11:28
      +1

      It's like making phone use illegal because someone might use one to make a threatening phone call.

      After outlawing motorcycle clubs, computer geek clubs will be next…

      • whitty on 28/03/2015 - 18:34
        +2

        They still have those? I didn't think geeks were forced to interact face to face since internets and online shopping became a normal thing.

  • [Deactivated] on 26/03/2015 - 17:09
    +2

    old DLink flat grey modem used to crash/BSOD my PC when using torrents when it first came out. I'm guessing the modem crashes when too many connections / threads fill the memory.

    only way to fix it was different brand of modem. you CAN take it back, I doubt MSY are gonna want another ACCC fine for refusing warranty claims and refunds for faulty products.

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 17:53

      I know mate. Just look up the may forums there are hundreds of complaints about the same issue.

  • lysp on 26/03/2015 - 17:18
    +12

    Quote consumer law to MSY:

    http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/the_acl/downloads/cons…

    Product not fit for purpose/acceptable quality - you're entitled to repair, refund, replacement.

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 17:54

      I'm still taking it as a statement of an confused employee. If may officially confirms that statement I will have no other choice but the ACCC

      • lysp on 26/03/2015 - 18:00
        +1

        Places often try and push you to avoid your legal rights.

        As soon as you start making the right noises (consumer law, accc, fit for purpose, etc) they may back off as they'll know you understand your rights.

  • Mnke on 26/03/2015 - 18:24
    +3

    Obviously the guy talking about torrents being illegal has no idea what he is talking about. If you were to complain to the ACCC they would simply just tell you to refer to the state consumer affairs regulatory body, such as consumer affairs Victoria in your case.

    Unless you are simply making a complaint and not looking for resolution, you should skip the ACCC. You can do both, but it seems a bit like a waste of time. It took a month for this response below. Now I simply avoid buying at this particular MSY store, which will remain unnamed.

    From ACCC email:

    Thank you for your email of *** **** 2014 to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission
    (ACCC) about MSY ******. Your reference number for this matter is ******.

    You may be entitled to a repair, replacement or refund. If you have been unable to resolve this problem in writing >with MSY, you should contact the New South Wales Office of Fair Trading on 13 32 20.

    We have referred you to the Office of Fair Trading because they can assist consumers in their disputes with >suppliers. Unlike the Office of Fair Trading, the ACCC does not have an individual dispute resolution service. >Although we’re not investigating your complaint we have recorded the details in our database. Complaints like >yours help us understand what issues cause the most harm to Australian consumers and where best to use our >resources. You can find out about our priorities on our website.

    Our website also has information about your rights. ‘Consumer guarantees’ provide you with a number of rights. Our >guide to these rights is called Consumer guarantees—a guide for consumers. The section of this guide most relevant >to you is ‘Acceptable quality’ (page 5). This guarantee requires that goods you buy are acceptable in appearance >and finish, free from defects, safe and durable. You cannot rely on this guarantee if you bought the goods at >auction or from a private seller, if you damaged the goods by misusing them, or if you examined the goods prior to >buying them and should have been aware of the problem.

    Please see our website for more information about the ACCC.

    I hope the above information is helpful.
    Yours sincerely

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 21:56
      +5

      I will wait until i get a official response and then escalate it further. It is a $39.- adapter so not the world but i really don't want to let them get away with such behavior, especially after everything i was told on the phone.

      • initialv on 28/03/2015 - 11:28
        +4

        You are obviously being bullied. All the best in fighting for your rights as a consumer!

        • lplau on 30/03/2015 - 09:22

          Yup I agree! Fight for your rights as a consumer, even if it costs you thousands of dollars in lawsuits!

  • Nutrino on 26/03/2015 - 20:25

    Did u test this on more then 1 pc?

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 21:53

      Yes, one PC and two laptops with same result.

  • Davo1111 on 26/03/2015 - 20:42
    +3

    contact tp link, get an RMA number, then return to store

    • dosada on 26/03/2015 - 21:54

      I did write them an email last week already. So far no one cared to respond.

      • Davo1111 on 27/03/2015 - 04:00
        +7

        call them man

    • johnno07 on 28/03/2015 - 14:20
      +5

      You don't need to even do this. You legal rights under the ACL mean you can simply take the clearly defective product back to the place of purchase for a return, repair or replacement (your choice).

      • Aceboy884 on 28/03/2015 - 17:47
        +1

        Yep and if they refuse

        take down the reps name and report him/her to small claims tribunal

        • lplau on 30/03/2015 - 09:20

          they can refuse it if they see no issue with it, e.g. they cannot replicate it on their PC.

          Also is it worth going to Small Claims for a $20-30 dongle? If i remember correctly it costs like $50 for application fees.

          I know its a case of doing something right, however make sure you don't get into this situation lol:
          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537034/Father-two-t…

  • shadowarrior on 26/03/2015 - 23:00
    +6

    I think it could be related to the Day version of MS Windows you have installed in your PC. Make sure you have the Day and Night version of windows so it allows all the drivers to work 24/7 providing stability. If this still doesn't fix your problem, head down to MSY again. Remember to top up the headlight fluid before you drive there though.

    • alizzan on 28/03/2015 - 23:40
      +1

      Isn't there a southern and northern hemisphere version as well? The different versions make sure the CPU clock rotates in the correct direction, or am I incorrect?

      • shadowarrior on 29/03/2015 - 00:59
        +1

        That is correct. If you mismatch the OS version with the CPU version then you have the clock rotating against each other, which then makes the computer slow and freeze frequently.

        There is also the MyCrash purchasable add-on with which you can choose what screen of death you see when Windows crashes. I think you have Pink, Black, White, Green, Yellow, Magneta and the default Blue with that add-on pack.

  • Manh on 27/03/2015 - 03:11
    +5

    Maybe the salesperson meant that the client uTorrent is illegal?

    Well, what uTorrent is doing is not illegal but it sure is shifty. uTorrent has been bundling their client with a bitcoin miner called Epic Scale and it's using your CPU to mine bitcoins. That's not an efficient way to mine but with a hugh user-base and not using any of your own electricity…corrrr. To anyone installing uTorrent, make sure you just don't blindly click Next in the installation and opt out of installing Epic Scale.

    Or better yet, move on to open sourced qBittorent and not put up with ads.

    http://www.engadget.com/2015/03/06/utorrent-bitcoin-miner/

    • Manh on 28/03/2015 - 21:38
      +3

      Why am I getting negative votes? I thought I was informative. Let me know what I did wrong so I don't do it again.

  • alxr0101 on 27/03/2015 - 10:18

    If it works OK on another computer then it's not faulty.

    If it still fails under load then you are entitled a refund or replacement.

    The discussion re: torrents are entirely irrelevant.

    But you will need to confirm whether the unit is faulty by either testing on another computer or trying another unit.

    It is also entirely possible that there is something wrong/incompatible with your PC.

    These issues can be difficult to diagnose where the "fault" lies.

  • tonyjzx on 27/03/2015 - 12:22
    +1

    you dont even need to say torrent

    just say you are copying large files from a nas to your computer

    this is a normal occurence

  • tyler.durden on 27/03/2015 - 23:53
    +1

    Why not get it tested in store

  • OzzyOzbourne on 28/03/2015 - 00:50
    +1

    Msy have already been fined for breaching Australian consumer law. When will they learn? Takr it back, quote the law to them and get a full refund.

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/03/2015 - 07:38

    Which version of Windows are you using OP?

    • dosada on 28/03/2015 - 14:54

      Windows 8 64bit

  • 2025 on 28/03/2015 - 10:12
    -1

    TPLink don't make the radio chipset. Have you tried the OEM of the chipset? It could be Broadcomm, RALink or something

    • WhyAmICommenting on 28/03/2015 - 23:29
      +2

      Really? So you're going to contact Subaru about the engine in your Toyota GT-86?

  • netsurfer on 28/03/2015 - 10:14
    +1

    First, most of the USB adapters (in fact a lot of the PC components) are basically glue and go components. The manufacturers bought chipsets from one of the makers (RaLink/Realtek, Broadcom, Qualcomm, etc..) and the maker provides circuit diagram and a set of software driver. The manufacturers then glued everything together based on the diagram and customise the driver a bit (add their logos) and then package it up in a box.

    Basically, the issue is the driver is poorly written (and/or the chipset cannot handle too many connections properly).

    You can rule out whether it is the adapter + driver issue by trying out the same activities using wired ethernet. If ethernet works fine, then you know it is most likely not an OS issue.

    Most cheap USB wifi adapters are not very reliable.

    It is known that older gen routers cannot handle heavy torrent traffic. The current gen routers don't have this issue. The older gen routers I was referring to include some wireless N routers.

    60 Mbit/s is 7.5MB/s - that's very good for wireless N. Do you have the same issue when transferring files between 2 devices within your own network?

    It might be better not to mention torrent. Just try out different adapters or compare to wired connection and then inform MSY that there is no issue with other adapters or LAN works fine so it is most likely the adapter. However, I don't think TP-Link support team will find the real issue as I doubt they will test large number of connections or 60 Mbit/s download.

    • This Guy on 29/03/2015 - 04:09

      Come on Netsurfer. Think back to the OSI Model. 802.11 is a data link. A router deals with connections in the network layer. :P

      Validation of a wireless stick should at a bare minimum include placing it as close to a base station as possible then transferring a large amount of data. That should easily hit 60Mb/s.

      Remember 802.11n is around 8 years old. Many N Draft 2 sticks shipped in 2007 with XP drivers. Many wireless devices require AU drivers/firmware. So with upto 6 Windows OS's (XPSP2, SP3, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1) and both 32 and 64 bit installs I would suggest that the OP probably has the wrong driver.

      "Most cheap USB wifi adapters are not very reliable."
      Most people have a cheap all in one wifi/modem/router. I find this is normally the problem. I've used generic wireless sticks with no drivers or antennas that were reliable, although slow.

      • netsurfer on 29/03/2015 - 08:41
        +1

        I have Asus, SMC, TP-Link, eBay el-cheapo wifi USB adaptors. They are all fairly average at best. The Asus one overheats and is unreliable since day 1 (drops connections, slow) even when it is very close to router. However, it was the one I bought 3 years ago. SMC, one is okay, one is not so good (very outdated driver). I found the chipset is the most important, the brand means little.

        OSI model is there to help you understand network (that's all it is). Anyway, even using OSI model, the USB adapter needs to operate on network layer as well (otherwise what exactly is operating on network layer to communicate with the router)? How about physical layer? That's the actual wifi / air. You need to have all 7 layers working properly for everything to work. If anything, OSI model actually illustrates the whole thing is not as simply as people expect.

        Whether a USB device will work well depends on chipset, driver, and internal/external antennas.

        • This Guy on 29/03/2015 - 16:16

          Yes but connections are just network data to an 802.11 device.

  • edgar28 on 28/03/2015 - 10:58
    +1

    I had old 1T1R wireless dongle before. it does hang a while when multiple requests.

    changed to cheap 2T2R no brand wireless dongle on ebay, no longer has such issue.

  • p1 ama on 28/03/2015 - 12:14
    +1

    Take it to either the MSY you bought it from or MSY Clayton (which I believe is the head office?). As much as everyone loves crapping on MSY, I've received better service from them than many other PC retailers, e.g. CPL. I've returned many items to MSY Clayton and things have always been great.

    Once, I bought a motherboard that wasn't detecting my RAM, took it back the next day, they exchanged it on the spot. Another time I had a CPU stop working after a few months of use. They wanted to RMA, but after a bit of persuasion and pointing out that I buy stuff from them every week, they were happy with an exchange.

    MSY is a no-nonsense type store. If you just go there, explain what happens in frank and simple terms, know what you're after and you should get what you want. That said, the fact that you've kept it around since June until now, like 9 months later, does sound a little strange to me (I'm not saying you're lying, I'm just saying it'd sound fishy to store reps).

  • bam on 28/03/2015 - 14:56
    -1

    Your problem is witI utorrent Google and you will find the fix. It's limiting the number of connections to reduce cpu load

    • This Guy on 29/03/2015 - 04:11

      IF CPU load is the problem the the router would have problems first as it uses a far slower CPU.

  • Aneurism on 28/03/2015 - 14:59

    Define crashes…
    Does the OS display an error message ? Does the system hang ? If so what is in the system log at the time of the hang ? Is there a blue screen ? Have relevant drivers been updated? What tests have you done to determine that your router isn't the problem. What tests have you done to determine that it is not due to poor signal quality or interference. Are you sure that the issue isn't a configuration problem related to the number of connections, or upstream saturation ? Are you running isolated copying tests without utorrent running ? Do you have friend with a spare wireless card or adapter that you could test with to compare results ?

    Are you sure you don't have any bad sectors on your hdd ? Sure, MSY sounds like they were pretty flippant with their response and their explanation is not really any good.., but the OP's description is so vague here that one shouldn't jump to conclusions about the real cause of the issue..

  • Wallyt99 on 28/03/2015 - 17:58

    Some networking devices have. Low volume NAT tables and can't handle torrenting. You need to buy good gear for good torrenting. The language from MSY was wrong but he was right in principle.

    • This Guy on 29/03/2015 - 04:13

      NAT tables are for routers. 802.11n is more like a phsical cable between the router and the computer

  • Parentheses on 28/03/2015 - 18:38
    +1

    If you want to download the latest Linux distro, you are probably going to torrent it - torrents are as legal as any other form of communication, and for a retailer to pull out that 'excuse' for them selling shitty products is laughable.

  • neosin on 28/03/2015 - 19:11
    +2

    My solution to scum retailers!

    1. Never buy from them again.
    2. Tell your friends, family, ozbargainers, and everyone you meet not to shop with the store.
    3. Win

    Optional
    1. Complain to fair trading and hope they get fined for breach of consumer laws.

  • garetz on 28/03/2015 - 22:19

    They must of seen you coming a mile away, to give that kind of explanation to why its failing. Make sure you report to fair trading.

  • saty1296 on 29/03/2015 - 03:45

    Must lodge complaint with department of Fair Trading NSW for breach of your consumer rights.

  • TailsK on 29/03/2015 - 09:41

    Did you increase the number of connections your torrent client will try to use at any one time? A lot of systems can have performances issues if you do that.

  • holisticboy on 29/03/2015 - 21:42

    I had a similar problem once, turned out my USB port wasn't providing enough power. Fixed it with a powered USB hub.

  • Dr Techno on 30/03/2015 - 00:12

    Wow I sense a disturbance in the MSY force…

    Maybe whole computer should be illegal.. haha they better not have ppl buying computer stuff then.

  • thaner on 30/03/2015 - 03:13

    well sorry to say that but tplink products are not the top quality i had lots of rma on their poe adapters as well as wireless devices

  • lplau on 30/03/2015 - 09:17

    Not sure why you are making such a fuss. lol.
    Call TP-Link get a RMA number, bring to MSY and RMA it…

    That's their standard policy.

    Make sure it isn't your PC causing the issue though, e.g. try to replicate the issue on another PC. Because if they (TP-Link) come back and say "cannot replicate, must be customer's machine" they sometimes will charge you for that.

  • mookill on 30/03/2015 - 10:04

    does it fail when transferring large files over the network?

  • rompastompa on 30/03/2015 - 12:11

    You'll probably have some problem with some DVR software. They usually open up multiple ports and transfer high amounts of data. Maybe a white lie stating this will give you a 100% legal angle to approach (even though, as everyone knows, utorrent is 100% legal - it's the content that might not be).

  • dosada on 01/04/2015 - 00:03

    Official mail from TP Link. No my name is not "xxx" and neither is the reps name "xxx"

    My configuration is six core AMD @ 3500 Mhz, 16 GB Ram, raid 0 SSD array.

    Hi xxx

    Your internet speed is 100Mbps download and 40Mbps upload?

    If so, I think the reason is high speed download is taking too much memory on your PC, it will lead/crash on the PC system.

    I got a 100M optical fibre which allow the download full speed reach over 88Mbps, then my laptop got stuck and unable to move.

    Please try to adjust the download speed to an less amount.

    Regard

    xxx

    • iridiumstem on 01/04/2015 - 03:09

      He/she sent you kisses?

  • kronicmacstigator on 03/04/2015 - 15:28

    Wifi adapters can be had for $6 on ebay, knock yourself out :)

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