Why do 'pozzes' cancel out 'negs' and vice-versa; why not show the total for each?

GnarlyKnuckles on 08/03/2015 - 01:24

I think that the number of 'positives' (+) and 'negatives' (-) that users apply to comments should both be shown as real/cumulative numbers; rather than the current situation whereby a neg cancels out a poz and vice versa. Why not show all the 'data'/responses? Under the current system, a lot of potentially interesting information is lost, and it could also result in some pretty drastic misrepresentations of what the general sentiments are among users.

As examples:

  1. A comment could attract a hell of a lot of votes, but if the numbers of poz and neg votes are approximately equal, it will 'appear' as though hardly anyone has voted/taken an interest. 102 pozzes and 100 negs for example, would show as "+2".

  2. A comment could attract only slightly more negs than pozzes, but if the overall number of votes is large, it would 'appear' (incorrectly) that the vast majority of users disagree with the comment. 209 pozzes and 217 negs for example, would show as "-8".

  3. A comment could attract quite a few votes, but if there is an equal number of pozzes and negs, it could appear as though/ be assumed that no one had voted/no one was interested in it. 21 pozzes and 21 negs for example, would show as "0".

I could go on/ there's various other examples/scenarios under which meaningful information is lost/obscured because of the somewhat simplistic 'neg cancels out a poz' system used to reflect the voting on comments…

So why not show the actual number of pozzes, and the actual number of negs?

Site Discussion

Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2015 - 02:04
    +6

    How would that be implemented? Currently it's relatively easy to click on the 'votes' below each comment and see the number of positive and negatives, for those who are interested in that sort of data.

    I agree it can throw you off sometimes, for example, when reading threads and comments appear to have zero + or - votes at all, when they actually have an equal number of both which thus nullify each other… but if you're the kind to read threads thoroughly, I'm sure those comments would stand out enough content-wise as being polarising/controversial (possibly?) in nature enough to make you suspect it would have garnered some votes, which would then lead you to click on the 'votes' button out of curiosity. At least that's what I always do. Those sorts of polarising comments also tend to have replies too, which can be another indication of 'hidden'/cancelled out votes (uh, if that makes sense).

    Then again, I tend to look at the actual vote counts of all posts I find particularly interesting.. Instinctive browsing habit now.

    • zrach on 08/03/2015 - 02:47

      Huh.. I did not know this. Thanks for the info!

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 08/03/2015 - 03:29
      -2

      "How would that be implemented?"

      I'm not sure what you mean by this; do you mean what would the HTML-code look like?!? Presumably the same dude/s who wrote the bit of code that makes the website show "+1 vote" or "-3 votes" (etc.) could pretty easily change the code slightly so that it shows "+12 votes, -9 votes" instead of just "+3 votes".

      Another question has sprung to mind. If a comment gets 100 pozzes, and 104 negs, is it 'collapsed' (hidden from view), despite being of interest to hundreds of peeps, merely because the negs exceed the pozzes by a total of 4? If that is the case, it is clearly inappropriate don't you reckon Waters?

      • ozhunter on 08/03/2015 - 05:31
        -1

        . If a comment gets 100 pozzes, and 104 negs, is it 'collapsed' (hidden from view), despite being of interest to hundreds of peeps

        The nonmembers can sign up if they are really that interested. If a comment has 10+ and 10-, and you see it as 0, does it really make any difference? Wouldn't your thoughts on the comment be the same?

        As it is now, those members that are that interested, can just click on the "votes" button.

        I'm not quite sure, but I think the amount of +/-s were shown a long time ago then it got changed to the current system.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 08/03/2015 - 14:26
          +1

          "The nonmembers can sign up if they are really that interested."

          Why should non-members have to sign up, to access such basic information? Anyways, the point I was making is that currently, if there's a lot of votes on something, a difference of 5% or less in the negs direction can result in a comment being collapsed/hidden. That makes no sense.

          "If a comment has 10+ and 10-, and you see it as 0, does it really make any difference?"

          Yes, it would be interesting. It would show that a lot of people were interested in it, and that opinions among users were dichotomous. Rather than the current situation, where unless you click "votes" based on a hunch that maybe there has been some, (provided you have signed up of course), it simply looks like no one's voted.

          "Wouldn't your thoughts on the comment be the same?"

          I can't see the relevance of this; my thoughts on a comment would be the same even if I didn't visit the website at all. The whole idea of the "votes" is not to change people's minds about things; it's to reveal what others think of certain things/comments. To this end, the current system is flawed in that it doesn't do that optimally because it 'hides' a lot of the actual voting information, because negs cancel pozzes (unless you are a member/decide to click "votes" etc.).

          "As it is now, those members that are that interested, can just click on the "votes" button."

          True enough, but what about non-members (why should they have to join just to see how many negs and pozzes there have been for a comment?), and why should members have to waste their time clicking "votes" for every individual comment they're interested in, when the two numbers could easily be shown in the top-right, without a click? It'd be a very small change; showing two numbers instead of one.

          "I'm not quite sure, but I think the amount of +/-s were shown a long time ago then it got changed to the current system."

          That's odd. I wonder why it was decided to move from a more informative/transparent system/display, to a less informative, potentially misleading one? Can a mod perhaps answer this?

        • ozhunter on 08/03/2015 - 15:13
          +1

          @GnarlyKnuckles:

          why should they have to join just to see how many negs and pozzes there have been for a comment

          Members get more benefits, not just being able to comment. Many sites are like this to encourage people to sign up.

          why should members have to waste their time clicking "votes" for every individual comment they're interested in

          It would be nice to have an option in settings to show vote count on comments.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 08/03/2015 - 15:31

          @ozhunter:

          "It would be nice to have an option in settings to show vote count on [all] comments."

          An excellent suggestion!

  • QuickToThePointless on 08/03/2015 - 03:05
    +1

    Step awaaay from the crack-pipe Mr Knuckles, it's time for bed

  • spackbace on 09/03/2015 - 12:14

    At the end of the day, how often does a comment have >50 of each vote that the OPs thoughts even come into play? Up to 20x pos and 20x neg I can imagine, but not 50-100 of both.

    • GnarlyKnuckles on 09/03/2015 - 16:37
      -1

      I was using those numbers as examples. The same type of problem occurs when there's 16+ and 18-, 9+ and 8-, 21+ and 19- etc.; it misrepresents the amount of votes there has been.

      • Baysew on 09/03/2015 - 18:48

        Any actual examples of the problem you are trying to solve ?

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 09/03/2015 - 22:03
          +1

          Sure, they happen on here every day. The one that started me thinking about it was this comment:

          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/183291#comment-2573905

          The voting on that comment has become a bit more disparate now, the votes were closer (+ vs. -) when I was first looking at it; but it doesn't matter, the example still makes the point about misleading numbers very nicely.

          It's a comment on a pretty important topic, more important say than whether $1.50 is a good price for a certain chocolate bar etc.; it's a 'current' topic that is of national importance and on which people seem to be divided. Passionate, yet divided. So IMHO it would be great/really interesting if the actual numbers who voted for or against the comment were displayed. It would be informative. Under the current system, non-members currently see "-8". And they can't get a breakdown of the votes. They will not know that by joining they can get a breakdown of the voting results. I only found this out after making this suggestion; I'd been an avid member (and voter) for almost a year, and I (as with another user above) didn't know it. So anyways, I'd imagine they would assume from "-8" that the vast majority of OzBargainers are against that particular comment/disagree with it. Actually though, more than a third of voters (13) "pozzed"/agreed with the comment. It's only because 21 disagreed with it, that it shows "-8".

          So, surely 'reflecting' a ratio of negs to pozzes that is closer to 1:1 than it is even to 2:1 with a summary number "-8", is at the least potentially misleading? At best, it is extremely uninformative. Why not show the amount of pozzes and the amount of negs? No one has offered a reason why not to do it. And it would definitely be much more informative, in various different contexts.

        • GnarlyKnuckles on 04/04/2015 - 02:31

          Here's another somewhat different type of example Baz:

          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/188878#comment-2662300

          Currently (at about midnight 04apr2015) the vote-count shows as "-1". Which to the casual observer, would just seem bizarre/incomprehensible.

          The actual vote count is 16 negs vs. 15 pozzes.

  • andy19363 on 04/04/2015 - 03:05
    -3

    Just get rid of the pointless neg vote…… It currently serves no purpose and hasn't done for the past few years. Good, useful posts will get lots of pozzies. Useless posts will get none

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