There have been cases of power banks exploding or emitting smoke during flights, filling the cabin with smoke and leading to emergency landings. I can only imagine how unbearable the smoke would be. If this happened over the ocean with the nearest airport hours away, what would the course of action be?
Risks of Power Banks Exploding Midflight
johnfuller on 19/12/2024 - 08:28
Last edited 20/12/2024 - 11:42
Last edited 20/12/2024 - 11:42
Comments
- 1
- 2
Then contact those that know at CASA or ATSB
Just copy and paste whatever ChatGPT says.
dont need that much power.. just use a poorly trained raspberry pi llm
You will find that at least one lavitory bowl is made of metal, and could be used to contain an object that was burning. If there are no metal toilet bowls on that particular aircraft, at least one of the trash recepticles in the lavatories will be made of metal, and designed to withstand the heat for a short period of time, buying precious minutes to get the plane to the ground.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/03/03…
The airlines stipulate you have to carry your power banks as cabin luggage so incidents like this can be monitored.
This article talks about the fire suppression containers. Apparently brought in after the Samsung phone issues.
why only power banks? and not anything and everything with batteries
what about phones, ipads, laptop, pwrsonal vibrating devices???¿??¿¿???¿??i think it would happen more with power banks being larger in capacity and with a lower focus on quality?
A spare battery is different to a power bank
A spare battery is exactly a power back minus the charge control circuitry. Same cells, same chemistries. Some are good quality, some are low quality. How do you think are they different from powerbanks?
@rumblytangara: Because a spare battery has exposed terminals which can be short circuited, that's not possible on a power bank as they are connected to something.
A spare battery can also be punctured if it is a pouch type battery as it doesn't have any protection around it because it's designed to be installed in something which will protect it.
@spaceflight: Pouch type batteries? Who carries bare lipo packs anywhere outside of commercial freighting to factories?
Any spare consumer battery for a device will be encased in plastic, with the terminals hidden away very well. With a built-in fuse for overcurrent unless you're talking bare 18650 cells or similar with the fuses not installed, which is hard to imagine someone wanting to casually bring onto any form of transport in the first place.
Remember, this whole (totally idiotic) thread is talking about passengers jumping onto airplanes, not trucks or ships carrying container loads of bare cells from one factory to another.
Pouch type batteries?
Internally installed laptop batteries like this
https://www.dell.com/en-au/shop/dell-3-cell-51-wh-lithium-io…Any spare consumer battery for a device will be encased in plastic, with the terminals hidden away very well
The terminals are still exposed and can be shorted. They aren't fully covered and protected and that's the risk.
unless you're talking bare 18650 cells or similar with the fuses not installed, which is hard to imagine someone wanting to casually bring onto any form of transport in the first place.
Hard for you to imagine maybe, but people do because they want a spare for their camping torch or whatever else they are taking.
That's why airlines say batteries need to be installed.
And it's why a spare battery is different to a power bank
@spaceflight: I think we are really splitting hairs to a meaningless degree here.
https://www.dell.com/en-au/shop/dell-3-cell-51-wh-lithium-io…
This is not a pouch type battery. That's a lipo pack encased in a hard protective plastic shell with an overcurrent fuse. A bare pouch type battery looks like this and people don't carry these around.
Hard for you to imagine maybe, but people do because they want a spare for their camping torch or whatever else they are taking.
The vast majority of bare 18650s that are bought by consumers have a fuse built into them, it's held on the positive end by the heatshrink. Walk into a store, or most online sources for single cells, and you'll likely end up with one of these. 18650s are also very low risk compared to Lipo and inherently harder to short, unless some doofus is dumb enough to toss one into a bag full of loose tools or coins.
I think we are really splitting hairs to a meaningless degree here.
So you think a spare battery is exactly the same risk as a power bank?
This is not a pouch type battery.
Yes it is, that's why it's so slim. It isn't an 18650 filled pack for example.
You can see the pouches here
https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_au/photo/default/03biljjxf4p9q6…That's a lipo pack
No it's not, it's lithium ion.
It's not lithium polymer.
Not that I said anything about battery chemistry.The vast majority of bare 18650s that are bought by consumers have a fuse built into them
I know, but not all of them do.
unless some doofus is dumb enough to toss one into a bag full of loose tools or coins
Or it comes out of the sock they put it in.
Which is again why spare batteries are a different thing to a battery pack.@spaceflight: We are talking around in meaningless circles here. I'm quite aware of the differences between lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries, having built, tested and deliberately destroyed packs in the past.
I'm quite aware of the differences between lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries
Yet here you are saying a pouch battery isn't a pouch battery and that a lithium ion battery is actually a lithium polymer battery
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/16088951/redirJust like you don't seem to be aware of the difference between a spare battery and a battery pack.
Nine times out of ten it's an electric razor, but every once in a while…
When we were travelling my other half’s razor randomly turned itself on. We ended up carrying it in the hand luggage so we could turn it off if it triggered. It is meant to be a wet/dry but it sometimes has issues if it doesn’t drain water properly.
I always take the batteries (not lithium) out of my travel razor when I am flying. Can't turn itself on, and also means that they can be seen when going through security scanners. Never had a problem.
its a vibrator!
looks around and whispers … it’s a dildo.
Of course it’s company policy to never infer ownership of a dildo by using the indefinite article “a dildo”, not “your dildo”.
If this happened over the ocean with the nearest airport hours away, what would the course of action be?
Open a window and throw it out?
yes, if only it was at peter jetson's altitude
Airlines always have a John Cutter on board to handle such instances
This is what lavatories in aircraft are for. Just flush it down into the ocean.
I always wondered about this. Does that mean if you look up at an airplane directly above you there is a chance of a fly by?
No, thats just a myth.
Commercial planes have waste storage tanks at the rear.
have waste storage tanks at the rear.
I believe that's called the rectum.
No
ok thank god glad that is cleared up
They have a tank, everytime you flush, a small hatch at the rear opens, the difference in pressure between the cabin and the outside of the plane pulles all the waste down the toilet into massive tanks filled with liquid. If you put your hand at the small gaps of the toilet door you can feel the air being pulled in from the rest the cabin.
Ah thanks this is how i thought it was done glad to have it confirmed.
The only thing that explodes mid air is my fart
Interestingly by the same mechanics the makes chip packets expand :)
Packet of chips contains mostly air, a gas, at approx sea level pressure. This air 'pushes' against the chip packet when the exterior pressure is relatively lower (e.g. aircraft pressurised to equivalent of 8000ft) creating a dramatic effect because the packet is so flexible. Doesn't even need to be that high - drive from a capital city to a ski resort (approx 4500 ft) and you'll see the same effect on your chips. A sealed lithium battery cell doesn't contain much air. The cell is contained in a rigid cylinder or pouch that's more than capable of containing the miniscule amount of 'pushing' from whatever small amount of air is trapped inside. The battery cells (one or more) are mounted inside a case which is not airtight so no problem there - the pressure will equalize inside the case.
Well said. Additionally the risk of batteries exploding is not due to the altitude but battery malfunction. Lithium batteries always have this risk whether in the air or not. It is just more catastrophic if it were to happen in flight. This is why you are only allowed smaller batteries onboard. So if something does happen, the problem is small. I suspect flights also have fire containment kits if a battery does malfunction.
Yes, was in the process of adding a PS. As you mentioned the risk of "explosion" is from an uncontrolled chemical reaction within the lithium cell which then creates its own gasses that build up pressure until the cell ruptures. The cells do have a safety valve that will go first before the case itself to release the gases, in an attempt to control the failure mode such that it's not an uncontrolled explosion throwing shrapnel everywhere. This safety valve pressure is many many times the pressure we're talking about from altitude changes.
A similar phenomena I've observed is that my toddlers water drink bottles turn into water pistols once the plane reaches a certain height, and I have to unscrew the lid to release the pressure
conversely having drunk from disposable soft plastic water bottles at cruising altitude and closed the screw cap, I have observed them then crush inwards as we return to ground level due to the increased air pressure at lower altitudes.
Yes, airline crews have fire buckets and pouches to cool and contain a burning mobile phone or battery.
i searched but couldnt find anything about it online
Hope American airlines are ready for a class action in 20 years time after the whole plane breathes lithium char for hours in a confined space
They won't care.In 20 years time there won't be any law or courts left in America.
It will resemble all the other oligarch shitholes.
There's a lot more on our menu over the next 20 years.Class actions, not so much.This is an under rated comment
The whole word's gone to hell but how are you?
Me? I'm super thanks for assking.
@Loopholio: All things considered, I couldn't be better. I must say! I'm feeling super no, nothing bugs me!
Your average plane's air is changed every several minutes using compressed bleed air from the engines, or on the 787 it uses a bleedless system. No one will be breathing that contaminated air for hours.
Courier company we use wont air freight any device with a battery anymore moblies, laptops, computers, etc- they have to go by road..
We thought screw that, shopped around and many companies are the same with some saying it was a new rule
But I can take any of those devices on as carryon or check in luggage…..
please explain
If one of the devices starts to smoke in the cabin you will probably notice it. Sitting in the luggage carriage it might not be evident until it catches fire.
But its not like you can open the window and launch it at 30,000ft
No, if you look at the article I posted they put them in fire suppression containment boxes.
@Herbs: If only you had been on the teams of engineers that designed and implemented the containment bags.
You, and you alone, would have forseen this issue of "burning things are hot and produce smoke"
I regularly fly on Malaysian Airlines and they make it very clear at check-in that lithium ion batteries are not to be in checked baggage. Should be common sense not to check lithium batteries in to the hold.
You have some pretty deep random shower thoughts OP.
Try something like 'lamps in video games are actually using electricity'.
I'm guessing you possibly have an up and coming long haul flight?
no flights booked or planned.
thats a good one, lamps in computer games
If this happened over the ocean with the nearest airport hours away, what would the course of action be?
Technically landing on water is still a landing/ditching in an emergency and ETOPS dictates how far a particular aircraft can be away from a suitable place to land.
landing on water? i think you mean crash landing
@johnfuller: No I don't. Ditching is a controlled emergency landing on water. It's rare thanks to reliable engines and strict ETOPS requirements.
so lava lamps use…?
Lava of course.
yeah, but how do they get it in the lamps when it's so hot?
@MS Paint: Sounds like an AI hallucination. Everyone knows it's real lava in there, see if you can convince ChatGPT it's wrong.
@Agret: and back in my day, I had real hallucinations looking at real lava lamps, none of these computery AI tesla-powered ones…
This bot is a fun way to explore random deep shower thoughts:
https://huggingface.co/spaces/Qwen/QwQ-32B-preview
OP's question: https://pastebin.com/gBAB84Ze
Another shower thought (asking for a friend)
So I'm thinking, why don't cars have like toilets as the seat? That way you can poop and pee when you're driving without having to rush to a toilet. Maybe they could even find a way to use the poop as fuel rather than waste it?
lol
'lamps in video games are actually using electricity'.
Ooh, nice thought. If you're playing a game and watching it via a projector then it might actually be using less electricity.
OP… Do you not think airlines would have thought of this after 20 years?
im sure they think on alot of things and only act on some.
Just out of curiosity…. Things that could very well cause air disasters, do you think they could be on the list?
I would like to think so but then you hear about stuff like random passengers opening doors mid flight etc. Sometimes the problem needs to happen first before anything is ever done about it. That's what I noticed for example at my workplace.
They are not preventative but reactive which is not good imho.
Will anyone dare fly on electric powered aircraft for fear that they'll explode like the Hindenburg! But that was probably before all you guys' time.
Shout out to all the late octogenarians and nonagenarians of OzBargain.
I wonder how heavy the batteries would be to run an airliner jeez
Actually, with an electric aircraft, they use a long extension lead
I've always wondered that when you take a packet of chips on an airplane, the altitude increase makes it expand like a balloon.
TIL that a packet of chips and a battery pack are the same. <shakes head>
Even if air pressure was a concern (which it isn't):
You realise that cabins are pressurised, right? Otherwise everyone on board would suffer from hypoxia and pass out.
Cabin pressures are maintained to be about 2000M above sea level- in Europe you can catch gondolas up to these altitudes. It's absolutely nothing- you don't have to worry about exploding electronics when you're skiing in the French Alps.
Batteries have also been carried as unpressurised cargo in planes since batteries have existed…. batteries exploding because of altitude is just not a thing. Look at the videos of people attaching totally stock GoPro cameras to high altitude helium balloons and going to the edge of space.
China has a train that has special carriages built to be pressurised because the high altitudes - over 4000 metres - it has to travel at to get to Tibet. They have medical staff to monitor passengers for altitude sickness. There were a lot of issues related to it with the workerrs constructing the railway.
So the drinks trolley has no packaged containers of liquid at all,eh?
Hi
Pamnot an issue at all. I've taken heaps of batteries on board - phones, tablets, flashlights, powerbanks, 360 camera, proper camera. They're not expanding since there's no air sealed inside.
There was a knee-jerk reaction to dodgy batteries in e-scooters and the like igniting which caused an obvious risk. Smaller batteries (100Wh and less) not being allowed in checked-in is to allow safer management of fires and not let it destroy luggage and damage the plane.
Shouldn't airlines equip flight attendants with fireproof boxes to safely contain a smoking or burning power bank
and the hazmat suit to carry said burning power bank from the seat to the galley?
or a safari suit. that would be interesting to watch as the plane plummeted from the sky and stranded 8 random oz bargainers on an island, where they followed an extension cord and eventually discovered a strange man with his cooking tools hooked up to the power socket of a neighbour….
The air in a chip bag is a gas. A powerbank is a solid. The pressure in a plane at altitude is lower than that of the chip bag at sea level, so the pressure in the bag is higher relative to the pressure outside it. The same thing does not happen with a solid.
can you guarantee yours has no air inside? what happens when a lithium battery starts to inflate is it air or something else?
Good lord. It is about a 3-4psi pressure differential to start with. Secondly I don't think power banks are airtight. Thirdly, why would a slight increase in pressure differential cause them to explode? I suggest not worrying about things you don't understand.
not so much explode, but creates more of a risk
This thread is rapidly becoming the perfect example of why Mark Twain was right.
If you have a lithium battery that is swelling, you ditch it immediately rather than bring it onto a plane or anywhere else. The manufacturer doesn't pump air into it at the factory to emulate a balloon.
- 1
- 2
My thoughts are that despite having access to the internet, I am not an expert on power banks and aviation safety.