Forced Seat Changes on Airline

just-human on 01/11/2024 - 09:38
Last edited 11/11/2024 - 16:16 by 1 other user

I was recently flying a trans-continental flight from the east-coast to the west-coast on Virgin Australia. I had booked the ticket with seat selection months in advance to get a window seat.

At the last minute when I scanned my ticket at the gate, I was told there was a seat change as there were families on board that wanted to sit together so I got moved to a middle seat without being offered any compensation.

I personally think that poor planning on someone else’s part shouldn’t constitute an emergency or loss on mine as this was an almost 5hr flight. If they wanted to change me it should have been to an equivalent (such as another window) or better seat. Otherwise, some other form of compensation should have been offered.

My question is, has this happened to anyone else and what happened when it did?

EDIT: I would also like to add that the family that was in my seat was all well in their mid-20s at least and did not have young children which definitely added to my frustration.

Updates:
01/11/2024 - https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/874444#comment-15873272

02/11/2024 - https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/874444#comment-15876083

04/11/2024 - https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/874444?page=1#comment-1588…

07/11/2024 - https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/874444?page=2#comment-1589…

11/11/2024 - https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/874444?page=2#comment-1590… (Final Update and Resolution)

Poll Options expired

  • 10
    Yes, it has and I wouldn’t care
  • 63
    Yes, it has and I was not happy
  • 587
    No, but I would not be happy
  • 16
    No, but I wouldn’t care
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Comments

  • jerjergege on 07/11/2024 - 10:11

    Nice work, keep on it, don't let these companies win.

  • pwnd on 07/11/2024 - 10:35

    By “middle seat” do you mean isle seat or a seat that is in between the isle and window seat?

    • just-human on 07/11/2024 - 11:05

      between the aisle and the window

      • pwnd on 07/11/2024 - 11:37
        +1

        Yeah, that is absolutely rubbish trying to claim that swap is like for like. Especially on a five hour flight.

        Companies will try that crap. Optus did that couple of years ago when we got a new iPhone that was defective. Wanted to replace it with a refurbished one and claimed that refurbished is same as new.

  • Marffia on 07/11/2024 - 14:15
    +3

    Making the first OzB comment of my life in support of OP for digging your heels in and not letting them get away with it.

  • cswine on 07/11/2024 - 14:43
    +1

    essentially depends on whether you want to change seats at that moment I guess. If you get a seat that you are okay with then thats probably fine. If you lose a window seat or aisle seat for a middle seat almost certainly not.

  • just-human on 07/11/2024 - 16:25
    +19

    Update 4:
    To say I am frustrated would be quite an understatement. As I mentioned in my previous update, I raised a complaint with the ACA after they declined my refund. The ACA got back to me saying they have refused to accept my case as Virgin Australia says it is still open with them. So effectively, I see this as they intentionally left the case open despite refusing a refund to block me from being able to deal with this through them. This is what happens when we have loose regulations on airlines along with a toothless "advocate" that is funded by them.

    Once again, I gave them a call and the representative said "the case is pending investigation". I then asked how it can be pending when they have already declined me and he said to wait for Guest Relations to reply by email (I've done a lot of waiting for these people). To keep me happy for now, they accepted my request for an Economy X upgrade on my next flight. In the meantime, they said to wait for a reply back by email. I have also sent a follow-up detailing my case in full again so it is clear.

    Next, I also lodged a complaint with Fair Trading NSW as I have had quite enough with Virgin Australia and dealing with the ACA will likely mean they will reject it again because for some reason they want to keep the case open (almost as if they wanted to intentionally block me from going to the ACA). The representative said there is a 6-8 week wait because of an influx of complaints but I'm hoping it does not take that long.

    Unfortunately, Fair Trading has no binding power and will only negotiate with Virgin Australia on my behalf but it is hopefully it is better than nothing. If you are still interested, thank you for your support. I wish we had better regulation and an independent ombudsman but unfortunately, those are simply wishes. At the very least, if nothing else, I have received 2 Economy X seat upgrades from this ordeal, so I have got some benefit even if not cash. For some reason the Guest Contact Centre can change from Standard Economy to Economy X but not to Business or issue refunds.

    I hope my next update will be somewhat positive but that is where the case sits at now. At this point, I may just take the Economy X upgrades as compensation (although they aren't really and are more for the inconvenience of having to deal with them) and call it a day.

    • ts13 on 09/11/2024 - 12:24

      fyi - I had a long fight with Virgin end of 2023 re two subsequent flight cancellations (requiring me to stay overnight in Sydney).
      After the second cancellation the next morning, there was a v long queue at customer service because two subsequent flights to Perth had been cancelled and I needed to get home semi-urgently for an important family event.
      Someone from Virgin came out and asked what the line was about. I told them my circumstances. Asked if I could book the next flight with Qantas (few seats left) at $1200 and virgin would reimburse me. She agreed and said she’d take care of my flight cancellation with virgin and reimbursement. Left me her name.

      Turns out she didn’t do anything. I was marked as a no show and Virgin refused my claims for compensation citing their conditions of carriage that they are not liable where circumstance of cancellation outside of their control (“bad weather”). Found this very sketch. The initial cancellation did not cite a reason, and this was an excuse they came up with later.
      I fought this very hard with Virgin. Eventually going to ACA and then through WA Consumer Protection. Virgin maintained their stance. In hindsight, likely should’ve gotten a full name / contact number.

      After all other avenues failed, WA Consumer Protection essentially said their hands were tied and they couldn’t do anything unless I took them to small claims court. I’m fairly certain if I took this to court I would win. But couldn’t be bothered because travel insurance paid out the claim, and any money recovered should theoretically be reimbursed to insurers. It’s not worth the trouble for that for principle alone. Virgin also reimbursed my initial flight (where I was marked as a no show) although they did not reimburse the $1200 Qantas flight like they said they would.

      I work as a lawyer and have some insurance and litigation experience, so I definitely presented a compelling argument and tried to indicate to them I would litigate if they didn’t pay but they held strong. (I can’t recall the specific causes of action I intended to rely on. Likely misleading / deceptive conduct under Australian consumer law. I think there was another but I can’t remember.)
      I doubt you will have any luck with reimbursement.

      I sympathise - I would be frustrated as well if I was in your situation. Unfortunately, I can’t swear off virgin after that experience since they have better rewards availability than Qantas, and there isn’t enough competition in Australia to solely fly on different airlines.

  • just-human on 11/11/2024 - 15:27
    +20

    Update 5:
    My final update. First, thank you for all your suggestions and support. It's good to know that other people wouldn't find this acceptable too. After hearing nothing for a week, I got a call from the Guest Relations team following up on the case. They advised that the staff members who provided me with the incorrect information had been given feedback and would be provided with further resources to ensure they would provide the correct information in the future. Next, they said as a result of the inconvenience of dealing with this issue, they would offer me a $100 travel credit for my inconvenience. I accepted this outcome as I would need to fly with them in the next year anyways. In the end a good result, although it took very long to get there :).

    • nwa on 12/11/2024 - 15:55

      Did they admit their mistake or apologise in not asking you regarding the seat change or compensating you straight away as it was their decision to move you from a seat you paid for?

      Looks like you received going away money, as it was costing them time and money in responding to you.

      • just-human on 12/11/2024 - 16:22

        They apologised for the staff conduct and the inconvenience of the seat change. They did stand firm that they had a right to move me (which I never argued). I do agree this was very much go-away money but the key part is they paid it. If this happens again, I'm not hesitating to go the same route. I hope others stand their ground if this happens to them too.

        • nwa on 03/12/2024 - 07:29

          If this happens again you really have to stand your ground at the time of the situation. Seems like they never apologized for the core issue of not refunding something you paid for which you didn't receive.

    • Lastchancetosee on 12/11/2024 - 22:30
      +1

      Thanks for taking the time to provide updates. It's so rare.

      • Lastchancetosee on 12/11/2024 - 22:31

        And glad you finally resolved the issue.

  • THICKnSLOW on 26/01/2025 - 22:24

    Thought of this thread when I read about this lady's ordeal with a piss poor parent of a little shiester

    https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/pass…

  • Muppet Detector on 03/02/2025 - 05:03

    I can't remember if this was in Virgin or Jetstar (or might've been both but we only studied one - it was in our Contract Law Lecturer's ticket and she bought it to the attention of the class).

    In 2011, (domestic Australia), the airline included a clause in their Terms and Conditions that if they were unable to deliver you to your destination via the your specified flight, they could substitute your flight with a bus trip to that destination as long as the final arrival date was not more than 72 hours after you were otherwise scheduled to arrive.

    The wording went on to make out that it was such a big deal that they would do this at no extra cost to the passenger.

    • just-human on 03/02/2025 - 06:44

      Lol, good luck doing a bus trip from Sydney to Perth within 72 hours.

  • Muppet Detector on 03/02/2025 - 05:42

    As for the seat swap scenario, it goes to the totality of the contract. The airline will aim to provide transport to you between point A and point B within a reasonable time of your intended travel dates subject to various scenarios out of their control etc.

    That is the basic contract they create with you.

    Introduction of Pre selection of seats was never intended to be a guarantee but rather an opportunity for the passenger to express their preference for a particular seat if such an opportunity could be extended to you during seat allocation or at various stages throughout the flight as a passengers needs may unexpectedly change during the flight.

    The initiative was intended as a benefit to travellers as it would streamline check in and boarding procedures by decreasing the length of the waiting lines for passengers.

    As someone above highlighted, it was always intended that pre selection was not a booking confirmation as it was up to the hostesses to manage the integrity of the flight by ensuring people were seated appropriately.

    An example was those seats in the emergency exit aisles come with an expectation that you will in fact help deplane passengers in an emergency and you need to be physically capable of doing this as it could involve heavy lifting (deployment of slides for example) and of a disposition capable of remaining calm in an emergency (no anxiety issues or panic attacks whilst your putting life jackets on people before pushing them out the door while you wait behind on the plane to help the next passenger.

    Obviously, if someone not suited for that task is allocated those seats they need to be resituated, and if there are not enough suitable people seated in those positions, the attendants will have to relicate people from other areas of the cabin.

    As for other seat changes, obviously the combination of passengers cannot typically be known until boarding so the hostesses need the flexibility of being able to reassign seats if they become aware of an inappropriate situation which has the potential to disrupt the flight/ expose to harm etc (as examples)

    Examples: two rival gangs travelling on same flight different bookings might be better seated in different parts of the plane if not separated further into more manageable group sizes.

    One type of passenger who is legally required to distance themselves from another type of passenger (a pedophile and a child for example) may be allocated seating which needs reconsidering.

    Two enemies who get seated closely may be better for everyone if distance is created between them.

    A bunch of examples that may arise which may interfere with the attendants ensuring in flight safety for the duration of the flight.

    Kinda like creating a seating plan at a wedding except there's a bunch more people and you probably don't know any of them until they board.

    • just-human on 03/02/2025 - 06:42
      +1

      Quite an old thread but i thought I might reply to explain why I made a big deal about this.

      Introduction of Pre selection of seats was never intended to be a guarantee

      I acknowledge and agree with this point. For operational reasons, an airline can move my seat and that is stipulated in the Term and Conditions. What I disagree with is that when I am forced to be moved without compensation. At the end of the day, this is a value added service. The lowest class fare does not have seat selection included and thus they had ruled that being able to select the seat has an inherent value, a value that I lost.

      An example was those seats in the emergency exit aisles come with an expectation that you will in fact help deplane passengers in an emergency

      While I understand your point, I disagree that this example applies to the situation at hand. Booking an exit row and being unable to assist is something you as the passenger can control. Having someone else want your seat is not. Because the airline made a choice to move me to benefit another passenger, I should be fairly compensated.

      One type of passenger who is legally required to distance themselves from another type of passenger (a pedophile and a child for example) may be allocated seating which needs reconsidering. Two enemies who get seated closely may be better for everyone if distance is created between them.

      Not something the airline can know or control to be honest, but I get your point. Either way, if its something they have done and it has a negative impact from me (such as in this example of deriving me of a service which I paid for) then they should compensate me fairly.

      My point has always been that they can change my seat, but they should be prepared to pay a reasonable cost to accomodate the lost value I had. It’s not difficult for them to say at the gate “Hey we know you booked this seat but because someone else wants to sit there we can’t seat you there today, here’s a $100 flight credit to make up for the trouble.”. If they had done that it could have easily turned a bad experience into a positive one.

      I also want to point out that if you read my updates a lot of the issues came from the fact they had untrained staff who I had to educate about their own terms and conditions. One particularly disappointing example was when a representative claimed that an aisle and window seat were the same even after pointing out that they were not according to Virgin Australia’s own T&Cs.

    • megaclix on 03/02/2025 - 08:36
      +3

      The initiative was intended as a benefit to travellers as it would streamline check in and boarding procedures by decreasing the length of the waiting lines for passengers.

      Wow. You sound as though you were involved in the executive who introduced this measure.

      "Here's how we can make extra money for doing literally nothing. Now get marketing to go spin it as how this is wholly to benefit the customer. Hide the fact that they are entering a lottery in clause 204836.274.38."

      • Muppet Detector on 02/03/2025 - 21:11

        I was referring to seat selection in general. I believe that every passenger gets to make a seat selection during booking whether they paid for it or not.

        Paid seat selection probably did become a source for value add revenue raising, creating an environment where some passengers preferences are given additional weight and consideration for a price, but that doesn't change the reasons for why preferential seating was introduced in the first place.

  • Muppet Detector on 02/03/2025 - 20:55
    +2

    Cheers OP!

    For clarification, I agree with your reasoning with just one caveat.

    You paid a specific fee for a specific good/service which you did not receive.

    You cannot be charged for a good/service you didn't receive and the airline augmented this basic principle of contract law by specifying extra terms and conditions that were applicable to the contract you formed with them.

    On that basis, you are definitely entitled to a refund for the service which you weren't provided, that being the amount you were charged for that service. Any extra expenses or repercussions that resulted from the failure to supply that service are irrelevant to this contract (I realise you weren't after anything extra, only to what you were legally entitled. I just wrote that last bit for anyone else following this thread who may believe they are owed additional compensation).

    I wholeheartedly support you with your decision to pursue your legal entitlements and anything extra the airline may choose to offer you out of goodwill. I am so glad that you stuck to your guns and achieved an outcome that you considered acceptable. Such a shame that they made the process so difficult and time consuming.

    They need to do better and hopefully they can do this in future with regards to the issues you brought to their attention in your complaint process (such as staff training for example). Obviously they also need to review their policies about recognising when a passenger has not received the product they paid for and make the refund process far easier to navigate if not automate the compensation for such a situation in some way etc.

    Where I foresee a legal argument existing in your situation is you became aware of the change to the terms of your contract and then agreed to those changes to your contract by continuing with the flight in the reassigned seats. This would be seen as acceptance of the new terms of your contract. It would be argued that the terms of the contract were changed by mutual agreement OR by specific performance when you continued with the flight.

    It would be up to you to provide evidence of necessity, compulsion or coercion etc for why you did agree to those terms (as well as anything you did to mitigate the new circumstances) iif it were ever to make it as far as court.

    Here's hoping that your future travel plans occur as they are supposed to happen for you. Best wishes.

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