NSW Is Set to Legalise eScooters for Commuters Travelling to Work

RichardL on 28/10/2024 - 12:35
Last edited 28/10/2024 - 12:36

The 'E-micromobility action plan', which was released ahead of a parliamentary inquiry into electric scooters and bikes, is pushing to legalise and regulate the devices.

Transport Minister Jo Haylen is pushing the bold plan which would see e-bikes and e-scooters, including shared hire scooters, become legal for commuters riding to and from railway and Metro stations.

Under the proposed plan, e-scooter riders must be aged 16 years and over, are legally required to wear a helmet and must ride in designated bike paths or shared zones

Source: Daily Mail

NSW is one of the last state where it's still illegal to ride eScooters.

Hopefully it's not just for riding to and from railway and Metro stations…

Travel Electric Scooter

Comments

Knightchampion on 28/10/2024 - 12:46

+3

Is there any date to this. What are the chances it can be legalised by this year?
ForkSnorter on 28/10/2024 - 12:54

+30

"legal for commuters riding to and from railway and Metro stations"

How are they going to enforce this? Wherever you are, you can just say you're on the way to the station.
- Mechz on 28/10/2024 - 14:09
  
  +12
  
  Except the times when you're riding from the station.
- freefall101 on 28/10/2024 - 14:41
  
  +3
  
  I imagine they won't, except to pick up people riding around the CBD in the middle of the day.
  
  However what it will give them is a level of deniability when injuries start to happen. Simply blame the injuries on people who weren't commuting to/from work. Also means they don't need to update infrastructure at all, because access to train stations is usually pretty good from residential areas, but riding around other areas may not be. So if you get hurt it's your fault if you weren't using it to commute.
  
  Or from a less pessimistic attitude, it allows them to better monitor results. Keep an eye on things between 7am-9am and 4pm-6pm each day where you get the most users. Also mostly limits riding to daylight hours without putting in a specific curfew.
- JediJan on 29/10/2024 - 21:40
  
  More headaches for the Police to check on. Maybe they will need more staff for a separate e-Police unit.
- neonlight on 31/10/2024 - 09:14
  
  All I know motorist will be slugged with higher insurance costs. I do not want to pay for people riding e-scooters
  
  Should be kept banned. It is a vehicle if it's on the road not footpath. Therefore needs a license and insurance they need to pay not making other car drivers pay that insurance.
  
  Also lot more accidents will happen
  - watwatwat on 31/10/2024 - 09:27
    
    motorist will be slugged with higher insurance costs.
    
    But people can scooter instead of taking car trips, thus reducing car traffic, reducing wear and tear on roads, putting downwards pressure on petrol prices, reducing liabilities of hitting people because instead of in a large heavy car they are in a tiny vehicle.
  - ForkSnorter on 31/10/2024 - 09:28
    
    Not sure if you read that they must ride in designated bike paths or shared zones. A shared zone is a 10km/h zone, where cars, pedestrians, and bikes all share the road.
tanksinatra on 28/10/2024 - 13:02

+11

Good idea. It's always been a bit of an oddity that electric bikes have been legal but electric scooters haven't been. I hope this also includes other flavours of micromobility like electric skateboards etc.

become legal for commuters riding to and from railway and Metro stations.

This bit seems odd. Not sure what they are going for with stipulation.
- Crow K on 28/10/2024 - 15:26
  
  General public concern about them being used for joyrides and recklessly/on footpaths, endangering pedestrians etc.
  
  So they announce they're only to be used on cycle paths/designated lanes and only for connecting work and train stations.
  - CaptainJack on 29/10/2024 - 10:05
    
    +4
    
    Just seems a lot easier to determine (and then issue a fine) that the scooter was being used on a footpath or recklessly, than the stipulation that it has to be used to/from a train station?
    
    But idk how these things work.
    - Crow K on 29/10/2024 - 10:20
      
      +1
      
      People hate the idea of scooters because "recklessly/pavement". In public consensus there isn't a socially responsible usecase for it because misuse would outweigh the supposed benefits (much like disposable vapes).
      
      So the stipulation for allowing this thing is "okay we hate them but they're being permitted for workers who use public transport to use as a convenience, in designated areas".
      
      They've stipulated the social good to gain consensus it's not a terrible idea.
      
      There would always be a fine for improper pavement use, and there will always be hardly any enforcement because where are the enforcers etc. The announcement is not about wargaming the best way to collect fines, it's to sell the public on why the scheme should be allowed.
      - CaptainJack on 30/10/2024 - 09:35
        
        +1
        
        @Crow K: Yeah if that is the case it sounds fkn dumb. If I'm upset about people riding dangerously on the pavement, then the only way it's getting sold to me is if they are going to crack down on people doing that.
        
        Crow K on 30/10/2024 - 10:00
        
        @CaptainJack: Yeah, they don't have the manpower to dedicate to that but I agree, it's terrible.
        
        If they made ebikes have a license plate of some sort and a "send snap solve" style app that would allow pedestrians to log the offenders then that might shift the balance (but good luck getting any sort of cyclist to agree to a license plate)
- HeWhoKnows on 29/10/2024 - 08:11
  
  +4
  
  Experience in Melbourne says otherwise.
  
  Melbourne has now banned hire e-scooters in the city
  
  https://www.drive.com.au/news/melbourne-set-to-ban-e-scooter…
  - SirCH on 29/10/2024 - 12:30
    
    +4
    
    The key point in what you have said is hired e-scooters.
    
    From my observations as a worker in the city, I think this is a positive move. People who have personal e-scooters generally use them for commuting and generally use them responsibly, with helmets, and in bike lanes.
    
    Conversely, a significant number of people using rented e-scooters were double-dinking and/or not wearing a helmet and/or powering down a footpath.
    - gromit on 29/10/2024 - 16:05
      
      -2
      
      use them responsibly? hell no. so many people mod them so they can do high speeds and ride on the footpath. However unlike the inconsiderate pricks that use the rental scooters they tend not to dump them on the footpath, in front of doorways or other places that tend to cause incidents as owners don't actually want their scooter damaged.
- Lastchancetosee on 29/10/2024 - 08:49
  
  +2
  
  For privately-owned scooters it may avoid having scooters left everywhere, as limiting their use to commuting to work and on trains, owners will bring them with them.
  
  For hired scooters, I can't see how it would change anything from now.
[Deactivated] on 28/10/2024 - 13:04

-5

This will just make e-scooter riders even ruder and more arrogant than they already are, thinking they own the footpath and have the right away over pedestrians. Many e-scooters rides now beep their horns expecting pedestrians to move out of the way for them, and for pedestrians to walk on to the muddy grass when it’s been raining, when the e-scooter riders should be the ones riding around pedestrians onto the muddy grass if they want to get past pedestrians.
- brotherfranciz on 28/10/2024 - 13:31
  
  +10
  
  Under the proposed plan, e-scooter riders must be aged 16 years and over, are legally required to wear a helmet and must ride in designated bike paths or shared zones
  
  You do raise an interesting complaint though:
  
  The use of bike bells is an interesting issue. It's legally required on all bikes, but pedestrians get annoyed by their use, which is somewhat understandable because car horns (the equivalent warning sound for cars) are intended for certain situations only - imagine using your car horn every time you had to overtake another vehicle (like cyclists being expected to use the bell every time they overtake a pedestrian)… But bike bells are also completely worthless on the road - good luck getting car drivers to hear the bell!
  
  I think sometimes pedestrians misunderstand the use of the bike bell, which is really more of a warning that a bike is approaching from behind, so the pedestrian doesn't inadvertently meander into the cyclist's path. The bike bell isn't usually used to tell the pedestrian to get out of the way.
  
  Whenever I ride my road bike on a shared path and there are pedestrians ahead, I usually freewheel so my hub makes a soft/gentle/inoffensive noise (and the bike naturally slows down too) and I go as far to the right hand side of the path as I can, and I say thank you as I go past. It does get a little tricky if pedestrians have earphones on though, so no matter if I freewheel, use the bell or even call out, the pedestrian may get a fright.
  
  Edit: I didn't neg you.
  - fantombloo on 28/10/2024 - 13:44
    
    +1
    
    imagine using your car horn every time you had to overtake another vehicle
    
    No need to imagine - a good chunk of the world does this. Personally it's a chief marker for using local drivers rather than hiring a car and self driving when o/s.
  - neonlight on 31/10/2024 - 09:17
    
    I get you but many of them do not follow and care about rules
- ThithLord on 28/10/2024 - 14:07
  
  +12
  
  Many e-scooters rides now beep their horns expecting pedestrians to move out of the way for them
  
  Is this the case, though? often there is a disconnect between riders and pedestrians, which I experience on my bike.
  
  I often will sound my bell when approaching a pedestrian from behind so as to not completely shock them as I ride past. It also is a signal to not walk aimlessly across the width of the path, which pedestrians often do because they are focused on what's in front of them, not behind.
  
  Sometimes it infuriates pedestrians who think I'm trying to get them to move over, sometimes it infuriates pedestrians if I don't signal my bell and ride past them giving them shock. You can't win.
  - [Deactivated] on 28/10/2024 - 21:54
    
    -7
    
    Block-quote Is this the case, though? often there is a disconnect between riders and pedestrians, which I experience on my bike.> Block-quote
    
    @ThithLord - Yes it is the case the majority of the time, perhaps there is the odd circumstance where I misinterpreted it. It happens not just from behind, but also from e-scooters riders approaching from front on. I walk a lot, and I also live close to a railway station.
    
    I will admit the bell rings can be annoying and they do sometimes startle you when often it wasn’t necessary for them to ring their bell, which I find rude. There is a wide footpath on one side of the road on the street I live on (on the opposite side of the road there’s also a standard width footpath), so in most situations there’s no need for any riders to ring their bell because there’s enough room for everyone and they should be able to safely ride around pedestrians without needing to alert them of their presence.
    
    It’s teenagers close to adult age and young men between 20 and 30 that do it the most, they just don’t seem to have a high level of manners and don’t appear to understand footpath etiquette, or they don’t care. The next highest offenders are the food delivery riders, delivering food like El Jannah to people that live 5 minutes away from the restaurant who are too lazy to go and pick it up themselves.
    
    As another member mentioned, e-scooter riders shouldn’t be on the footpath to begin with. And if it does become legal in NSW I can see a lot arguments and physical altercations/fist fights occurring between pedestrians and e-scooter riders as a result of e-scooter riders and their attitudes, especially in Sydney.
    
    I remember about 20 years ago I was walking with a mate on the footpath, and some bogan was coming towards us from the front pedalling at a high speed on his push bike expect us to move. I didn’t move a cm, so as he passed me he purposely shoulder barged me, I lost my balance and fell over on the grass but instantly got up and wasn’t injured, while the idiot bike rider went head first over the handle bars and fell on his chin. He got up with blood pissing from his face yelling and screaming at me for not getting out of his way and thought in his warped mind that he was actually in the right… At first he wanted to blue over it but he quickly backed down. Just the same now as a pedestrian, I won’t move out of the way for any e-scooter rider.
    - johnno07 on 28/10/2024 - 23:33
      
      +11
      
      Just the same now as a pedestrian, I won’t move out of the way for any e-scooter rider.
      
      This is the problem. These are shared spaces. Not just for pedestrians. Not just for cyclists. Not just for e-scooter riders.
      I can also assure you that a 25kg scooter hitting a 20-year-older version of yourself is going to have a decidedly different outcome than your bicycle run-in back in the good ol' days.
      - [Deactivated] on 28/10/2024 - 23:44
        
        -3
        
        @johnno07: I work for a council, we will see just how well it all works out for e-scooter riders when it becomes legalised, I’m pretty confident that it won’t end well. The etiquette and rules on footpaths have always been pedestrians first before anyone/thing else and that pedestrians have the right away.
        
        And your example of the damage an e-scooter rider can do to a person if they hit someone walking on the footpath is exactly why e-scooters shouldn’t be allowed on the footpath.
        
        johnno07 on 28/10/2024 - 23:52
        
        +8
        
        @[Deactivated]: Fortunately Brisbane has avoided the "old man yells at cloud" approach to new private transportation options - legalising scooters has been a huge boon to our network.
        
        And your example of the damage an e-scooter rider can do to a person if they hit someone on the footpath is exactly why e-scooters shouldn’t be allowed on the footpath.
        
        No, this is an example of why you should practice self-preservation. I assume you don't walk out onto zebra crossings with your eyes closed? Right of way does not stop you from being evaporated by a B-Double.
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 00:05 Comment score below threshold.
        
        johnno07 on 29/10/2024 - 00:21
        
        +11
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        I do walk out on to zebra crossings if I have the right away, and if a car hits me the driver will probably be the one in trouble with the law because I had the right away.
        
        Well this sentence sufficiently satisfies me that further conversation is unlikely to reach any great heights. Go about your night.
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 00:31
        
        -2
        
        @johnno07: As a pedestrian it’s not my job to look out and move for speeding e-scooters on the footpath just in case they hit me, it’s the job of the e-scooter rider that shouldn’t be riding them on the footpath in the first place to make sure they don’t hit me, otherwise if they hurt me they will suffer the consequences. Obviously we don’t agree, but that doesn’t matter, because the fact is your opinion is the losing opinion because the e-scooter rider will be the one in trouble with the law if they hit a pedestrian on the footpath, not the other way around.
        
        Crow K on 29/10/2024 - 10:28
        
        +2
        
        @johnno07: I love the way you've phrased this, nice work.
        
        Billy-Bob, what good is the moral high ground of knowing you have right of way as your one and only human body disappears under the grill of a SUV? Have you pre-recorded a sarcastic eulogy to play at your funeral on the offchance they attend it out of guilt?
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 11:04
        
        @Crow K: What moral high ground? There’s always a risk when a pedestrian crosses a road that it could cost them their life. Nowhere did I say that I don’t look before crossing at a Zebra crossing. What I said is that I as pedestrian I am obeying the road rules at a Zebra crossing and have right away, if car doesn’t slow down when approaching a zebra crossing and stop for pedestrians, then they have done the wrong thing and perhaps they shouldn’t have a drivers licence and be allowed on the road to begin with, and if they hit a pedestrian due to their negligence, the driver deserves to have their live destroyed from being charged with the crime.
        
        Crow K on 29/10/2024 - 11:57
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        I do walk out on to zebra crossings if I have the right away, and if a car hits me the driver will probably be the one in trouble with the law because I had the right away
        
        Pedestrians always have right of way on zebra crossings, so the good news is you don't need to check for that anymore, you can step out onto it with your eyes closed and be "in the right".
        
        Now that you know this, you can follow through on your beliefs and get some lawbreakers into trouble.
        
        Assburg on 30/10/2024 - 16:59
        
        +1
        
        @[Deactivated]: Love the use of the word negligence as if you, as a self proclaimed fit 43 year old man, act as if you don't owe a duty of care to yourself.
        
        Contributory negligence is a real thing, and if you knowingly put yourself in the way of certain harm…it's not the other person's negligence that's hurt you, it's you intentionally harming yourself.
        
        Let people past, if you don't like getting a bit of mud or grass trimmings on your shoes, either wear cheaper shoes or don't go outside, don't be such a snowflake at the expense of other people just getting on with life.
        
        [Deactivated] on 30/10/2024 - 17:22
        
        -1
        
        @Assburg: I’m not knowingly putting myself in harms way at all, and the security cameras at the crossings I regularly cross at would prove that. Quote exactly where I said that, you’ve certainly misinterpreted that comment of mine. As I stated in another post, I always look before crossing, and obviously I don’t cross if a speeding car is approaching and doesn’t stop. But a driver that is approaching the crossing who has slowed down can get fooked if they think they can cross the crossing when I was there first, which plenty of drivers attempt.
        
        What’s shocking to me, is that you seem to be defending drivers for this behaviour, and seem to think a speeding driver who doesn’t slow down when approaching a Zebra crossing and doesn’t stop for pedestrians who are waiting to cross when the pedestrian was there first and has the right away, is acceptable. I walk almost everywhere, and do you know how often I have witnessed at Zebra crossings impatient idiot drivers either purposely and rudely not stopping for pedestrians, or whose minds are clearly in wonderland and they’re not concentrating on the road and what’s ahead and don’t stop for pedestrians at Z crossings, or when it’s a 2 lane road rather than the driver waiting until the pedestrians are completely off of the zebra crossing they drive over the crossing as soon as the pedestrians have passed the middle of the crossing. People that do this shouldn’t be driving and should have their licences taken away from them, and deserve what they get if they hit a pedestrian.
        
        [Deactivated] on 30/10/2024 - 17:38
        
        -2
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quoteLet people past, if you don't like getting a bit of mud or grass trimmings on your shoes, either wear cheaper shoes or don't go outside, don't be such a snowflake at the expense of other people just getting on with life.
        
        I would argue that e-scooter riders are the ones who are snowflakes for needing to ride them and being too lazy to walk or ride a push bike.
        
        How about I wear whatever shoes I want, and the e-scooter riders do the right thing and ride around pedestrians on to the grass if they need to get past getting their e-scooters dirty. I do let other people past, an e-scooter is a vehicle though, and as a pedestrian I am not obligated to move out of the way off of the footpath for them at all, especially when e-scooters are currently illegal to ride on footpaths in NSW.
        
        Assburg on 31/10/2024 - 03:07
        
        +1
        
        @[Deactivated]: Ok well next time someone goes to hit you remember just to stand there and let them do it because you have right of way.
        
        Are you obligated to move out of the way if someone faster than you is walking or running behind you? Of course you don't think so but, this right of way nonsense you're talking about is a paradigm that exists for cars, boats and skiiers, not for pedestrians. As a pedestrian, show some courtesy or move to a place with less people.. My god.
        
        I keep forgetting people this dumb actually just get dumber as they get older but luckily I have the ozb forums to keep me in touch with reality.
        
        [Deactivated] on 31/10/2024 - 04:40
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quoteOk well next time someone goes to hit you remember just to stand there and let them do it because you have right of way.> Block-quote
        
        You make it sound like that e-scooter riders are a-holes and would remain on the footpath because they think they are entitled to it, and would hit a pedestrian on purpose for not moving.
        
        If an e-scooter rider hits a pedestrian on a footpath there’s a high chance they will be up on criminal charges, and sued civilly as well for damages.
        
        Block-quoteAre you obligated to move out of the way if someone faster than you is walking or running behind you?Of course you don't think so but, this right of way nonsense you're talking about…> Block-quote
        
        Explain how it’s nonsense quoting the legislation that says it is? As mentioned it’s currently illegal to ride e-scooters on the footpath in NSW, which means pedestrians do have the right away on footpaths over e-scooters. And also as mentioned to another member, when it becomes legal for e-scooters to ride on footpaths in NSW, you’re dreaming if you think the NSW Government will not implement restrictions and will grant e-scooter riders the same equal right to the footpath as pedestrians.
        
        Block-quoteis a paradigm that exists for cars, boats and skiiers, not for pedestrians.> Block-quote
        
        What the hell are you talking about? Since when do cars, boats and skiers travel on footpaths? It’s illegal in NSW for cars and boats to be parked over the footpath and on the nature strip.
        
        Block-quoteAs a pedestrian, show some courtesy or move to a place with less people.. My god.> Block-quote
        
        E-shooter riders are the ones who should be showing courtesy to pedestrians. It truly amazes me that you believe it should be the opposite and pedestrians should move off of the footpath for e-scooters. As I said to another member, e-scooter riders having attitudes like this is why legalising it is destined to fail… You’re your own worst enemy.
        
        Block-quoteI keep forgetting people this dumb actually just get dumber as they get older but luckily I have the ozb forums to keep me in touch with reality.> Block-quote
        
        There’s only one dumb person in this conversation…
        
        Assburg on 31/10/2024 - 19:10
        
        @[Deactivated]: Your whole right of way concept doesn't exist between civilians and outlawed vehicles.
        
        There are no "rights" associated with giving way to people where you walk. The concept literally exists for ships (give way to bigger vessels), cars (follow the local road rules) and skiiers (give way to people in front of you).
        
        So for someone on a footpath, it comes down to courtesy. Do you want to let people past? No, ok but don't say it's because you have right of way… It's just because you're self important and have no sense of courtesy or empathy for others.
        
        I choose to ignore the other legal aspects of your case because it makes you sound like you're answering a foundational law course question at uni.
        
        You're gonna have to cope harder I guess, the scooters aren't going anywhere.
        
        Edit: for the record I'm a cyclist at the best of times, no scooters for me, but every scooter rider is one less car on the road so I'm an advocate for it. I just read your posts about it and my god, man you're just so cooked and self centred. I just imagine you as this sort of overweight, balding man getting angry at scooter riders for having more fun in life than you do.
        
        [Deactivated] on 31/10/2024 - 19:49
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quoteYour whole right of way concept doesn't exist between civilians and outlawed vehicles.> Block-quote
        
        Yes it does, the fact that you can’t acknowledge that you’re wrong/incorrect about this is 🤦‍♂️ at this point:
        
        https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/n…
        
        Block-quoteThere are no "rights" associated with giving way to people where you walk.> Block-quote
        
        If it’s illegal for e-scooters to currently be on footpaths in NSW, then the pedestrian has 100% right away. The fact that you can’t seem to grasp this simply concept is 🤯
        
        And as stated twice already, when it becomes legal for e-scooter to ride on footpaths in NSW, you’re dreaming if you believe that the NSW Government won’t implement restrictions for e-scooters riders, and if you think e-scooters riders will be given equal right to footpath as pedestrians have.
        
        Block-quoteThe concept literally exists for ships (give way to bigger vessels), cars (follow the local road rules) and skiiers (give way to people in front of you).> Block-quote
        
        As previously mentioned I work for a Sydney council (and based on your responses I certainly have a greater understanding, and more knowledge and expertise with regards to the rules and regulations and legislation in general than you do… People like you are fined by councils everyday for the uneducated nonsense and foolish views of the laws that you are spewing here in this thread, and you clearly deserve to be fined if your comments are anything to go off), and this concept that you’re trying to present as a valid point is completely irrelevant, and does not factor into pedestrians and e-scooter riders using the footpaths.
        
        Block-quoteSo for someone on a footpath, it comes down to courtesy. Do you want to let people past? No, ok but don't say it's because you have right of way… It's just because you're self important and have no sense of courtesy or empathy for others.> Block-quote
        
        Pedestrian do have the right way, and legislation supports this. Everything else is just your subjective opinion, and your opinion doesn’t support the legislation and the facts.
        
        Block-quoteI choose to ignore the other legal aspects of your case because it makes you sound like you're answering a foundational law course question at uni.> Block-quote
        
        And therefore you’re an idiot, and don’t come whinging on OzBargain asking how to get out of paying an infringement when you make a decision that you know is against the law, because choose to defy the law for the purpose or sticking it to the man.
        
        Block-quoteYou're gonna have to cope harder I guess, the scooters aren't going anywhere.> Block-quote
        
        They will if your attitude makes up the majority of how e-scooters riders think.
        
        Assburg on 01/11/2024 - 01:21
        
        @[Deactivated]: Every council fine I've been given has been thrown out pre-trial, I've never paid one in my life. You guys are total amateurs lol.
        
        What do you mean by "people like me" being fined though? Statements like that might give rise to an apprehension of bias silly man. So might your apparent disdain for anything that might lend itself to you getting your RMs dirty (they take like 5 minutes to clean and polish even after a jaunt in snow or mud, so you don't need to be so precious to begin with).
        
        Pedestrians have right of way isn't some like, footpath jus cogen, you're absolutely cooked man, like… Yes drivers and riders (of a closed list of vehicles) have to give way to pedestrians, that's a rule for drivers in the ARR. Good luck applying it to scooters.
        
        Go have a read of the Australian road rules dude, drivers and riders (to whom the laws of giving way to pedestrians apply) does not include scooter operators. It's a question of statutory interpretation as to whether the closed list could be opened up, but
        
        You might not be familiar with it, because every time I have gotten a fine and consulted with it, it's been pretty clear that the council who tried to fine me is acting according to their own ideals and not the law, and even after pointing these things out to the internal review guys they're always pretty stubborn and just double down.
        
        I understand your logic, it just has no legal basis other than your vibe and you should probably pay for some legal advice.
        
        [Deactivated] on 01/11/2024 - 05:46
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quoteEvery council fine I've been given has been thrown out pre-trial, I've never paid one in my life. You guys are total amateurs lol.> Block-quote
        
        “You guys are total amateurs lol” - Lookout, some bloke online who it’s obvious is an amateur is making claims he is smarter than council rangers and the police when it comes to understanding and interpretation of the rules and legislation.
        
        How many fines have you received, and what were the stated offences?
        
        Your responses have now turned into the typical BS you expect from someone arguing online when they’ve got nothing and their argument is running thin. “Pre-trial” - I think now you are starting to tell lies, in NSW if you feel the council fine is unjust and you have a valid case you present this to Revenue NSW and they will review it… If you truly were innocent and can present a valid case (the word pre-trial wouldn’t even come up), then it would go nowhere a court room, the fine would just be waived.
        
        Block-quoteWhat do you mean by "people like me" being fined though?> Block-quote
        
        By that I meant people like yourself who clearly don’t know and understand the law but think they do, call councils everyday angry wanting to argue with rangers over an infringement they have received, and in the vast majority of cases the person who has received the infringement did do the wrong thing and is incorrect.
        
        For example, last week a stupid member of the public called about an infringement he had received for parking on the street in the opposite direction of the traffic flow. He didn’t understand that this is an offence and the rules and legislation, and proceeded to argue that it’s not an offence when it is, and even after it was politely explained to him he still didn’t understand, and kept running with the same argument throwing out all sorts of invalid excuses and making pointless statements such as “the rules are ridiculous, all it is is revenue raising” that weren’t going help him.
        
        Block-quoteStatements like that might give rise to an apprehension of bias silly man> Block-quote
        
        There’s a high level of silly bias man coming from you is this conversation who is clearly an entitled and uneducated ignorant e-scooter rider.
        
        Block-quoteSo might your apparent disdain for anything that might lend itself to you getting your RMs dirty (they take like 5 minutes to clean and polish even after a jaunt in snow or mud, so you don't need to be so precious to begin with).> Block-quote
        
        Whether I’m wearing a $5 pair of shoes or a $300 pair of shoes (which I might wear to the office) is not relevant and isn’t the point, and the fact that you don’t understand this and are trying to use this as a point for your argument demonstrates just how silly your poor argument really is.
        
        Block-quotePedestrians have right of way isn't some like, footpath jus cogen,> Block-quote
        
        It is in NSW and the legislation supports this.
        
        Block-quoteyou're absolutely cooked man, like… > Block-quote
        
        “You’re absolutely a cooked man” - And here it comes, the pathetic attempts of trying to attack a person personally and their credibility because you’ve got nothing else, and don’t have a valid argument that you can support with facts.
        
        Block-quoteYes drivers and riders (of a closed list of vehicles) have to give way to pedestrians, that's a rule for drivers in the ARR. Good luck applying it to scooters.> Block-quote
        
        If you truly believe this, good luck to you and other e-scooter riders when you appear before a magistrate after hitting a pedestrian on the footpath, you will see how well your poor logic works for you then.
        
        Block-quoteGo have a read of the Australian road rules dude, drivers and riders (to whom the laws of giving way to pedestrians apply) does not include scooter operators.> Block-quote
        
        It absolutely does include e-scooter operators. I have read the rules and I even linked you to a brief part of the NSW legislation where it states “Personal e-scooters remain illegal on NSW roads and road-related areas, including footpaths, shared paths and bicycle lanes.”, perhaps you should stop wasting your time pointlessly trying to argue your incorrect views on OzBargain and actually go and read them.
        
        Block-quoteIt's a question of statutory interpretation as to whether the closed list could be opened up, but You might not be familiar with it, because every time I have gotten a fine and consulted with it, it's been pretty clear that the council who tried to fine me is acting according to their own ideals and not the law, and even after pointing these things out to the internal review guys they're always pretty stubborn and just double down. > Block-quote
        
        It sounds like you receive a lot of fines, continuing the behaviour and never learning from the lesson. A rangers job is to enforce the rules and legislation.
        
        Block-quoteI understand your logic, it just has no legal basis other than your vibe and you should probably pay for some legal advice.> Block-quote
        
        You certainly don’t understand, it absolutely does have legal basis. It sounds like you’re going to need to pay a solicitor for their legal services soon enough.
        
        Assburg on 01/11/2024 - 11:08
        
        @[Deactivated]: Look man, sorry about the ad hominems I just couldn't help myself because it's the internet and I was bored.
        
        Yes escooters are illegal, but this has nothing to do with right of way.
        
        Robbery is illegal too, and the man with the gun or syringe in hand running out of the store doesn't have "right of way" (neither do you) but if you're sensible you're not going to be having that argument with him, or on the internet later on. You'd properly identify the issue as him committing a robbery, not him cutting you off as he runs out the shop. You can't see the forest for the trees because you work within one type of legislation daily…
        
        I agree that the scooters are illegal completely but you don't immediately have right of way against people breaking the law…and if anything you're not being reasonable if you think law exists to regulate this. Yes you may have a civil action but guess what happens when you sue the people on scooters, who are generally a lower socioeconomic demographic? Hint: you end up with less money than you started.
        
        Again, not an escooter rider, I literally just don't give a damn about them..for every escooter rider you see there are a thousand people texting and driving, and you think police should hyperfocus on something that's statistically negligent, because you don't like your shoes getting dirty….
        
        Last two fines I fought, last year, parking in a clearway—there was no yellow line painted, and I was able to turn onto the road I parked, and park, before passing a clearway sign. Other one was a "no parking when events are on" type deal but the minister or a delegate hadn't declared an event (nothing published in the gazette) and the format of the no parking sign that got me resembled nothing in sch 2 of the ARR (the council was actually trying to argue an online notice was sufficient).
        
        Truth be told, we could probably sit down over a coffee or beer and have an interesting chat about this but I'm not in NSW. That said, the ARR are very uniform… The concepts are the same, and statutory interpretation is an exercise that does not vary between jurisdictions. If you want to "fix" this issue there probably needs to be a provision in the ARR including outlaw scooter operators as riders in the ARRs dictionary. I'm not a "black letter lawyer" but road rules and bylaws are absolutely the place for the most narrow interpretations of statutes against the executive (in SA, for example, fines got thrown out because there was some silly wording in the regs about how speed cameras should be calibrated. All the cameras were obviously calibrated properly but a drafting error made it read a bit silly).
        
        I do get what you're saying but… If it really was the big issue for society that it was for you, we'd do something about it. It sucks for you because you're near the train station, but hey…at least there are 50-100 less cars parked on your street during business hours.
        
        [Deactivated] on 01/11/2024 - 12:53
        
        -1
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quote Yes escooters are illegal, but this has nothing to do with right of way. > Block-quote
        
        It has everything to do with right of way. If it’s illegal for e-scooters to be on footpaths in NSW then the pedestrians have 100% right to the footpath and e-scooter riders have no right to the footpath, and if an e-scooter rider is travelling on the footpath illegally the pedestrians have the right of way because the e-scooter shouldn’t be on the footpath, which means that the e-scooter rider must move out of the way and off of the footpath for pedestrians, and pedestrians don’t have to move out of the way and off of the footpath for e-scooters… And If the e-scooter rider doesn’t move and hits a pedestrian on the footpath it’s a chargeable criminal offence.
        
        The fact that you don’t seem to be able to get your head around that is 🤯, as it is if you honestly believe once it is legal for e-scooter riders to ride on the footpath in NSW that the NSW Government will grant right of way to e-scooters riders over pedestrians on the footpaths, and the footpaths will be completely equally shared with no rules for e-scooters riders. In NSW pedestrians will always have more right to the footpaths over push bikes and e-scooters.
        
        Block-quote Robbery is illegal too, and the man with the gun or syringe in hand running out of the store doesn't have "right of way" (neither do you) but if you're sensible you're not going to be having that argument with him, or on the internet later on. You'd properly identify the issue as him committing a robbery, not him cutting you off as he runs out the shop. You can't see the forest for the trees because you work within one type of legislation daily… > Block-quote
        
        Your comments are just getting even more ridiculous. There is a big difference between someone committing a robbery with a weapon and a man child riding an e-scooter on the footpath. If I witnesses a robbery, what I would do would depend on the situation, I wouldn’t necessarily be a coward and do nothing if it meant saving someone elses life. But regardless what I chose to do in that situation if the robber did attack me, the result is they will be held accountable for their actions and charged with the crime, just the same as what will happen to an e-scooter rider if they hit a pedestrian on the footpath.
        
        Block-quote I agree that the scooters are illegal completely but you don't immediately have right of way against people breaking the law… > Block-quote
        
        As the pedestrian I have the legal right of way to the footpath, what else do I need? That’s exactly what this conversation is about, nothing else.
        
        Block-quote and if anything you're not being reasonable if you think law exists to regulate this. Yes you may have a civil action but guess what happens when you sue the people on scooters, who are generally a lower socioeconomic demographic? Hint: you end up with less money than you started. > Block-quote
        
        Law does exist to regulate this.
        
        If they can afford a $1000+ e-scooter then they clearly have some money. Yes some e-scooter riders are from a lower socioeconomic demographic, however plenty are not, many of them are working men and woman with good paying jobs. However whether they’re from a lower socioeconomic demographic or not it’s not my problem or any other pedestrians problem, the e-scooter rider will still be charged criminally as they deserve if they hit a pedestrian on the footpath, and the risk is also there that the pedestrian can sue the e-scooter rider civilly for damages if they want to.
        
        Block-quote Again, not an escooter rider, I literally just don't give a damn about them..for every escooter rider you see there are a thousand people texting and driving, and you think police should hyperfocus on something that's statistically negligent, because you don't like your shoes getting dirty…. > Block-quote
        
        So because you don’t care everyone else who are pedestrians shouldn’t too? As I mentioned twice earlier in this thread I walk a lot.
        
        Block-quote Last two fines I fought, last year, parking in a clearway—there was no yellow line painted, and I was able to turn onto the road I parked, and park, before passing a clearway sign. Other one was a "no parking when events are on" type deal but the minister or a delegate hadn't declared an event (nothing published in the gazette) and the format of the no parking sign that got me resembled nothing in sch 2 of the ARR (the council was actually trying to argue an online notice was sufficient). > Block-quote
        
        So if you’re to be believed 2 parking offences, wow. Come back and report once you have successfully gotten away with hitting a pedestrian with a car or an e-scooter on a footpath, beating the charge.
        
        Block-quote Truth be told, we could probably sit down over a coffee or beer and have an interesting chat about this but I'm not in NSW. That said, the ARR are very uniform… The concepts are the same, and statutory interpretation is an exercise that does not vary between jurisdictions. If you want to "fix" this issue there probably needs to be a provision in the ARR including outlaw scooter operators as riders in the ARRs dictionary. I'm not a "black letter lawyer" but road rules and bylaws are absolutely the place for the most narrow interpretations of statutes against the executive (in SA, for example, fines got thrown out because there was some silly wording in the regs about how speed cameras should be calibrated. All the cameras were obviously calibrated properly but a drafting error made it read a bit silly). > Block-quote
        
        We probably could sit down over a coffee or beer and have an interesting chat about this. This thread is about a particular topic though, and I’m not interested in going off topic like you’re doing.
        
        Block-quote I do get what you're saying but… If it really was the big issue for society that it was for you, we'd do something about it. It sucks for you because you're near the train station, but hey…at least there are 50-100 less cars parked on your street during business hours. > Block-quote
        
        You’re talking as though I’m the only person in Australia that has issues with e-scooter riders on footpaths, and that the majority of the population disagrees with me, when that’s not the case at all. Enough people clearly have issue with it, we have done something about it because they are currently banned/illegal to ride on footpaths. When it does become legal in NSW the Government will be trialing and monitoring it, and they could easily go back on it if too many e-scooters riders do the wrong thing. Therefore it’s within e-scooter riders best interest to threat pedestrians with respect on footpaths if they don’t want it to fail.
        
        There’s not less cars parked on my street because some people are using e-scooters, and if you think this new legislation in NSW legalising e-scooters is going to make a dent with this and we are going to start seeing a lot of empty car spaces/parks on the street, and it’s going convert a large percentage of people from driving into e-scooter riders instead, you’re kidding yourself.
        
        Assburg on 01/11/2024 - 13:33
        
        @[Deactivated]: I didn't read anything after you said you might stop the robber because you fell for that bait and you're actually delusional and think you're a hero of justice.
        
        The part before that where you said scooters are illegal therefore pedestrians have right of way… That's it, you're linking two unrelated concepts. Right of way isn't something you inherently have for being a pedestrian, it's something that vehicle operators are required to give to pedestrians and other road users where the law says it to be so. You'd think being a strong council man you'd be above these sovereign citizen-type delusions where you think you have special rights… But no.
        
        Edit: and just for completeness, the common law notion of rights of way simply exists in negligence under the duty of care from all road users to all other road users (including road-like areas such as footpaths)… And every road user owes it to every other road user, regardless of their status as a pedestrian, rogue scooter operator or whatever. You actually have a common law duty not to knowingly block scooters, as a pedestrian, if you perceive it could cause an accident!!! Wild, I know, there are laws that exist beyond your state traffic act and council bylaws, but that's why the judicature exists—because council workers are inept.
        
        [Deactivated] on 01/11/2024 - 14:19
        
        -1
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quote I didn't read anything after you said you might stop the robber because you fell for that bait and you're actually delusional and think you're a hero of justice. > Block-quote
        
        “Took the bait” - only in your warped mine… Your comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired, because that wasn’t the context at all, I clearly stated that in most cases I would likely be a coward in the even of a robbery that occurs in a public place.
        
        It’s clear that I have been wasting my time having a discussion with a person who is a fool, which I suppose makes me a fool too for participating.
        
        Not at all, I’m just a pedestrian in NSW who legally has the right to the footpath and the right to travel on it over e-scooters and have the right of way when it comes to who moves out of whose way. You have provided no facts of your own to support your argument to dispute the facts I have stated that’s written in the legislation, therefore this “hero” has beaten you in this discussion, game over.
        
        Block-quote The part before that where you said scooters are illegal therefore pedestrians have right of way… That's it, you're linking two unrelated concepts. >
        Block-quote
        
        I’m not linking two unrelated concepts at all, you’re just obviously not intelligent enough to understand.
        
        Block-quote Right of way isn't something you inherently have for being a pedestrian > Block-quote
        
        And the fact you think that’s what I have said is certainly 🤦‍♂️. We are talking about pedestrians and e-scooters both using footpaths, and as far as this goes on footpaths right of way is something you inherently have for being a pedestrian over e-scooter riders just from the simple fact alone that it’s illegal to ride e-scooters on the footpaths currently in NSW… The pedestrian does have the right of way on the footpath, and e-scooters do not because they are not allowed on the footpath, as clearly outlined in the legislation.
        
        Block-quote it's something that vehicle operators are required to give to pedestrians and other road users where the law says it to be so > Block-quote
        
        And this is where you’re failing miserably, with your wrong and strange belief that right of way is a concept that only applies between vehicles and pedestrians and other roads users on the roads.
        
        The law does say it to be so, because it’s currently illegal for e-scooters to travel on footpaths in NSW.
        
        “Dictionary
        Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
        noun
        
        2.
        the legal right of a pedestrian, vehicle, or ship to proceed with precedence over others in a particular situation or place.
        "he waves on other drivers, even when it's not their right of way"
        
        Block-quote You'd think being a strong council man you'd be above these sovereign citizen-type delusions where you think you have special rights… But no. > Block-quote
        
        The unfortunate thing about me being a “council man”, is that I have to deal with members of the general public daily that are even less intelligent than you are.
        
        Assburg on 01/11/2024 - 15:32
        
        @[Deactivated]: Just addressing your Oxford dictionary definition because you literally have no jurisprudential training or knowledge.
        
        The right of way concept exists in relation to others, e.g., when turning at an unmarked intersection, you give way to oncoming traffic going straight. The other person has right of way because that's how it's written..
        
        The law hasn't kept up to accommodate these unfathomable electric chariots on footpaths, so there's no written right of way. You keep going back to bicycles and mobility scooters and crap, of which provisions exist for. Provisions do not exist with regard to electric scooters.
        
        Something being illegal doesn't mean you have "right of way" over it as illustrated by the robber example above.
        
        The unfortunate thing about you being a council man is that you subsist on ratepayer's money to talk about laws and bylaws but yourself do not have any formal legal training. You said it here:
        
        "right of way is something you inherently have for being a pedestrian over e-scooter riders just from the simple fact alone that it’s illegal to ride e-scooters on the footpaths"
        
        You've literally admitted to conjuring it up as something 'inherent' rather than an aspect of the law. If you can find me a recent example of someone being fined for doing something "inherently wrong" as opposed to violating a penal provision I'd be impressed (and worried because it would spell an end to the rule of law).
        
        But you're a smart guy, should be pretty easy for you to find such an example, right?
        
        Edit: just laughing out loud imagining if you were a cab driver when ride-sharing started happening, just shrieking "Uber is illegal!!! I have right of way!!! Aaaaaah" as you plow your taxi into some poor immigrant worker who didn't understand the laws here and was just trying to make some cash to feed his family by operating a rideshare vehicle. "You can't arrest me!!! I had right of way!! He was breaking the law!!!"
        
        Or, "His car has been parked for over 24 hours in a suburban area so I'm going to push it away and just park there myself!!!!" And then wondering why the police are investigating you for damage to property. "Officer I had to park there, if I parked further down the leaves from that tree would fall onto my car, making it dirty, so I was entitled to park in this spot because that car is ILLEGALLY parked."
        
        Thank you for the laughs
        
        [Deactivated] on 01/11/2024 - 16:03
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quoteThe right of way concept exists in relation to others, e.g., when turning at an unmarked you give way to oncoming traffic going straight> Block-quote
        
        And what do you think this discussion is about? Exactly this. There’s 3 people on the same footpath, 2 are walking in opposite directions about to pass each other, and the third is an e-scooter rider, there isn’t enough room on the footpath for both of the walking people and the e-scooter rider, they can’t all occupy the same space at the same time without running into each other. The e-scooter is obviously going to be travelling faster than the walkers, does the e-scooter have the right of way over the pedestrians on the footpath where the walkers needs to give way to e-scooter by moving off of the footpath on to the grass to let the e-scooter pass, no. Is the e-scooter rider obliged to give way and turn/move off of the footpath and ride around the pedestrians, yes, because the e-scooter isn’t illegally allowed on the footpath in NSW, therefore the pedestrians have the legal right of way to stay on the footpath and not to give way to the e-scooter, and the e-scooter rider doesn’t. Furthermore, if the e-scooter rider wasn’t committing an illegal act by riding on the footpath to begin with, the pedestrians wouldn’t have been put in the situation of them being in the e-scooter riders way where the pedestrians moving off the footpath was an obstacle they had to experience.
        
        Assburg on 02/11/2024 - 18:29
        
        @[Deactivated]: Just imagining you as a highly autistic man who can't simply let people who are faster past because it doesn't accord with your ideal world and you associate illegal scooters with an absence of right of way.
        
        As a reasonable person when I'm walking on the footpath and someone wants to get past on their bicycle/scooter/postman on a motorbike… I simply stand by and let them past. When the situation is reverse, E.g. I've diverted off the bike lane onto the footpath because someone "illegally parked" over the bike lane, people generally step aside for me and I give them a "cheers" or a "head nod" and they smile back and maybe say "no worries".
        
        Occasionally some obstinate lard will just try and block the way because they hate cyclists and I'd get upset but I just remind myself that their life is entirely inconsequential, it seems to me you're in this latter category and resent the fact you'll never be a real person.
        
        [Deactivated] on 02/11/2024 - 19:37
        
        @Assburg: https://images.app.goo.gl/M9hKjNje7myTJQtj9
        
        The fundamental point is e-scooters are dangerous to pedestrians on footpaths (footpath infrastructure for decades has been upset for pedestrians to travel on first and foremost, not e-scooters), so what happens if pedestrians get hit and hurt by an e-scooter rider, who’s legally liable. Of course there needs to be rules and laws in place on footpaths, including who has the right of way/who needs to give way, for the protection and safety of people, particularly for pedestrians when they are the most vulnerable, especially if they are going to be sharing the footpaths with fast moving e-scooters. It seems like your view is fook the pedestrians, it’s too bad so sad for the pedestrian if they get hit and seriously injured by an e-scooter on the footpath, shit happened, right? And that you also think that it’s the pedestrians fault and they deserved it if they didn’t move out of the way for the e-scooter rider.
        
        Your personal subjective opinion about how it should work and what should happen and what you do in these situations is completely irrelevant, and I’m not interested in your views whatsoever, the legalisation currently doesn’t favour your point of view, and it’s a good thing that you’re not making legislative decisions for this country.
        
        Assburg on 03/11/2024 - 03:01
        
        @[Deactivated]: It's a good thing you're not a lawyer man, talking to people online about your opinion on rights of way. Again, your advice is akin to telling people in cars they have like, right of way over unregistered vehicles or people parked illegally lmao
        
        You're literally cherry picking the 1 in a 100,000 instance where there's an accident. There are car accidents too so let's get rid of all cars. A skateboarder crashed into a kid, skateboards should be illegal!
        
        You're some sort of footpath nazi thinking we need to regulate every aspect of how everything is done, when really the only reason people even contemplate such a silly scheme is because people like you are just so inept and can't navigate the world without getting angry at everyone.
        
        Edit: re liability..a scooter rider wouldn't be able to claim damages from a pedestrian except in cases of severely provocative behaviour (e.g. you got angry and pushed or spat on a scooter rider).. But where the pedestrians own behaviours contribute to their injury that's obviously going to be considered quite significantly…
        
        But again, all the horrors you fear for these defenceless pedestrians… Like, it's got nothing to do with the scooter. If I sprint past you at a 2:50 pace and push you out of my way as I do it… It's not at all a question on right of way, it's an action in battery.
        
        [Deactivated] on 03/11/2024 - 06:59
        
        -1
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quoteIt's a good thing you're not a lawyer man, talking to people online about your opinion on rights of way> Block-quote
        
        You’re the only one out of the 2 of us that’s here talking online about your opinion on right of way on the footpath between pedestrians and e-scooters in NSW, you’re just not smart enough to realise this. As I have stated already I’m clearly wasting my time arguing with a fool who is obviously not very intelligent if you don’t understand the fact that pedestrians have the right of way on the footpath over an e-scooter rider because it’s currently illegal in NSW for an e-scooter rider to be on the footpath in pedestrians way, and therefore if an e-scooter rider hits a pedestrian on the footpath the e-scooter rider is at fault and liable. If you don’t get this at this point in the discussion you never will. At least your moronic comments are publicly posted though for people that do make decisions with the legislation to all see.
        
        Assburg on 03/11/2024 - 09:42
        
        @[Deactivated]: Your first sentence: "this isn't about right of way."
        
        Your second sentence: "obviously pedestrians have the right of way."
        
        Somewhere in there you have the snark to call other people moronic 😂
        
        Even if escooters were legal, and hypothetically did have right of way, escooter operators are going to get in exactly the same trouble you discuss above for hitting someone (found at fault and liable), assuming the pedestrian hasn't done anything really silly.
        
        [Deactivated] on 03/11/2024 - 10:22
        
        -1
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quote Your first sentence: "this isn't about right of way."> Block-quote
        
        First sentence in which post? Quote it. I have a strong feeling that you have likely misunderstood the meaning if I have said that somewhere, which would be no surprise, or I have simply made a spelling mistake… Either way this just further demonstrates your lack of intelligence because the position I have been arguing is quite clear.
        
        Block-quote Your second sentence: "obviously pedestrians have the right of way."> Block-quote
        
        Which they do on footpaths in NSW currently over e-scooters. And you have foolishly and pointlessly been arguing against this point for days now.
        
        Block-quote Even if escooters were legal… > Block-quote
        
        Which they’re not, so all of your ifs and buts mean absolutely nothing.
        
        Block-quote Even if escooters were legal and hypothetically did have right of way, escooter operators are going to get in exactly the same trouble you discuss above for hitting someone (found at fault and liable) > Block-quote
        
        I haven’t said otherwise. That doesn’t change the fact that as it stands right now that pedestrians in NSW have the legal right of way on footpaths over e-scooter riders as it’s illegal for e-scooters to travel on footpaths (which shouldn’t be very difficult to understand but it seems to be for you), and that your opinion on what you think is polite and who should move, and how it’s your view that pedestrians should just move out of e-scooter riders way off of the footpath and let them by, doesn’t matter it’s irrelevant. Not everyone thinks the same, which is exactly why society needs rules and legislation, for situations just like this.
        
        Block-quote assuming the pedestrian hasn't done anything really silly. > Block-quote
        
        And according to you based on your comments a pedestrian not moving off of the footpath for an e-scooter rider qualifies as the pedestrian doing something really silly and transfers the blame and liability to the pedestrian if they are hit and hurt by an e-scooter rider on the footpath, which is a really silly point of view that you have. Luckily the legislation doesn’t support this, and lucky for the Australian public that you’re not in control of deciding legislation that involves their safety.
        
        Assburg on 03/11/2024 - 12:19
        
        @[Deactivated]: Ceebs with the formatting but here you go, from the post immediately before my reply
        
        "You’re the only one out of the 2 of us that’s here talking online about your opinion on right of way on the footpath between pedestrians and e-scooters in NSW"
        
        "pedestrians have the right of way on the footpath over an e-scooter rider because it’s currently illegal in NSW for an e-scooter rider to be on the footpath in pedestrians way, and therefore if an e-scooter rider hits a pedestrian on the footpath the e-scooter rider is at fault and liable. "
        
        These are both you.
        
        You've gone off topic from right of way to civil liability in negligence which….whilst is ambulance chaser law, is still a tad more complex than the simple concept of right of way and is informed by a far more broad variety of factors including both parties' states of mind.
        
        Yes, seeing a person illegally riding/driving/etc on a footpath and choosing just to stand there and get hit by them will reduce their liability, no matter how many silly right of way arguments are made in front of a judge.
        
        The reality is, you can't sue many of these people because they're probably dirt poor. 99% of them are humans just trying to get around, many of them are young people who can't afford all the nice things people like us acquired pre-covid and here you are, a man in his 40s who has a job he's not qualified to do and has had all the opportunity in the world taking issue with it because his shoes might get dirty if he merely lets them past.
        
        Please continue to laud yourself as highly intelligent, but I assure you, nobody misses you when you're away.
        
        [Deactivated] on 03/11/2024 - 13:23
        
        -1
        
        @Assburg:
        
        Block-quoteCeebs with the formatting but here you go, from the post immediately before my reply:"You’re the only one out of the 2 of us that’s here talking online about your opinion on right of way on the footpath between pedestrians and e-scooters in NSW" "pedestrians have the right of way on the footpath over an e-scooter rider because it’s currently illegal in NSW for an e-scooter rider to be on the footpath in pedestrians way, and therefore if an e-scooter rider hits a pedestrian on the footpath the e-scooter rider is at fault and liable." These are both you.> Block-quote
        
        So just as I thought it’s a fault with your comprehension and you misunderstood. That first comment of mine means that in spite of what you have said about my comments being just my opinion, they’re not it’s a fact that the legislation supports, whereas what you have said is merely your opinion.
        
        The second comment of mine means exactly what I have been saying all along.
        
        And until you can present an argument that says e-scooters are currently legally allowed on footpaths in NSW to contradict the NSW legislation that says it is illegal you will continue to be wrong, and that’s all your comments will ever be, nothing more than your opinion, and you should probably just and move on, because I certainly don’t care about what your opinion is.
        
        Block-quoteYou've gone off topic from right of way to civil liability in negotiations> Block-quote
        
        I haven’t at all, you just haven’t understood what’s been discussed and my point from the beginning when you decided to enter the discussion half way through it, and clearly aren’t very good at comprehending what is actually being said and following a conversation.
        
        The purpose of originally bringing up right of way on the footpaths in NSW between pedestrians and e-scooters, is the dangers it presents to pedestrians safety, and what happens when pedestrians get hit and hurt on the footpath by an e-scooter, who’s negligent, and criminally as well as civilly liable? And the answer to that question is currently the e-scooter rider is in NSW, 100% of the blame legally gets put on to the e-scooter rider if they were travelling on the footpath illegally regardlessly whether the pedestrian didn’t move off of footpath which you have stated you think is poor form of the pedestrian, that has been my point to this discussion all along.
        
        All your entire argument seems to be is that you think pedestrians are a-holes if they don’t move off of the footpath for e-scooter riders to let them by, well whoop-de-doo, you could have said in one sentence. Not that any pedestrian would give a shit whether some bloke on OzBargain named Assburg thinks they’re an a-hole for not moving.
        
        KangaDrew on 03/11/2024 - 15:18
        
        +1
        
        @Assburg: You're pi$$ing in the wind with this clown. He's of the delusional belief that he's the leading authority on every OZB post that he comments on and has no concept of the possibility that he's ever wrong, so he'll fight for the last word every time. Dunning Kruger is so deeply engrained into this guys head that in his reality, he knows more about everything than anyone else.
        
        Check out some of his comment history on soundbars and Blu-rays if you want some more laughs. Not only is he toxic, his self-righteous indignation over anyone daring to counter his "supremely intelligent mind" (<< insert heavy sarcasm here) is pitiful. Save your time - he's like a dog with a bone and you'll never be correct in whatever world he lives in.
        
        Assburg on 03/11/2024 - 16:43
        
        +1
        
        @KangaDrew: Hahaha yeah figured as much but we've been having a laugh thinking of this guy shrieking in rage about his intellect for most of the past week at work.
        
        I guess the jig is probably up but even after telling him I wasn't reading all of his posts he kept pumping them out. Nothing feels better than being right online when you've never been right in real life I guess.
        
        KangaDrew on 03/11/2024 - 19:15
        
        +1
        
        @Assburg: Oh he's good for a laugh at! You just know he's got a chalkboard on a wall with a tally mark for every internet argument he thinks he has won so he feels like he's accomplished something in life.
        
        He keeps pumping out replies because he's never wrong in his mind so he just has to have that final say. As long as he's made you very well aware about just how right he is and how wrong you are, he can add another tally on the board for his argumentative "wins" and sleep easy at night.
        
        kiitos on 29/10/2024 - 15:25
        
        -1
        
        @johnno07: Yessir, right away!
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 04:41
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        Block-quoteThe etiquette and rules on footpaths have always been pedestrians first before anyone/thing else and that pedestrians have the right away.> Block-quote
        
        Just to add to this comment of mine, the exception being wheelchairs and mobility scooters for the disabled of course.
        
        resisting the urge on 30/10/2024 - 07:47
        
        @[Deactivated]: Plenty of mobiilty scooters and wheelchairs have caused havoc running into pedestrians and driving over feet. Whether it be cranky riders, sadistic, mentally ill or unfit, crushed feet and broken bones have long term impacts that few think about before a collision. Even with extremely speed limited ones in controlled environments like museums and Westfields it happens.
        
        Of course e-mobility needs to happen, the problem is that infrastructure in NSW is so poor, with cramped, uncared for footpaths that were never designed to match their use-case, or are hopelessly overcrowded. The problem, like most things is the (lack of) planning and overdevelopment that so few seem to care about.
        
        Politicians avoid grasping all the resulting e-nettles, so the end result is always impossibly risk-averse, or at best a trial, followed by a ban or an impossible complication of the rules that more involves more hapless bureaucracy and fining everyone. In the meantime, more chaos reigns in which we will have no chance of getting to work, let alone developing eyes in the back of our heads to move the right way for a beeping scooter.
        
        [Deactivated] on 30/10/2024 - 08:27
        
        @resisting the urge:
        
        Block-quote Plenty of mobiilty scooters and wheelchairs have caused havoc running into pedestrians and driving over feet. > Block-quote
        
        No doubt. What I meant by that comment is that there is a footpath etiquette where pedestrians out of politeness move out of the way for disabled people in wheelchairs and mobility scooters on footpaths and walk around them on to the grass to let them by, whereas e-scooters riders on the other hand get no such pass, it’s the e-scooter riders that have to treat pedestrians as pedestrians do disabled people in wheelchairs and mobility scooters and move out of pedestrians way on footpaths.
  - morse on 29/10/2024 - 03:59
    
    +6
    
    It can be the case. I’ve had a teenager on an e bike with parent (dual passenger) ask me to “move” so they could overtake, which would have required me to step off the path with my much younger child, in a crowded area due to an event. I flatly said no and to consider others safety at least the parent gave them some guidance after. I’ve also had a lady be shocked that she suddenly had to stop and swerve her e-bike when my kid was coming of a bus onto the footpath, and shake her head like “who knew pedestrians disembarked buses a bus stops” that was actually a pretty close near miss. Not all these bike and scooter users have good awareness of their surroundings.
    
    Where I live on the Gold Coast you’re meant to be 16 to ride an e-bike without adult supervision, but of course no one follows this and kids as young as 10, but more often around 12 are riding them around with no supervision and absolutely flying on footpaths with no regard for others. But then the middle age people are often worse, unfit, weren’t regular bike riders before switching to an e-bike and just don’t have their head around the fact pedestrians are on the path too.
    
    It also is a signal to not walk aimlessly across the width of the path, which pedestrians often do because they are focused on what's in front of them, not behind.
    
    This is the inherent problem of mixing the two. My kid is getting better now, but as a toddler I really couldn’t guarantee they aren’t going to drift when walking. Not all bike and scooter riders have the patience for this. But at the end of the day that’s what footpaths are designed for, pedestrians and if not a clearly designed and marked shared zone, the pedestrians need to take precedence. I’m talking standard footpaths here, that were never designed for the amount of bike traffic they are seeing.
    - [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 05:02
      
      +3
      
      Block-quoteBut at the end of the day that’s what footpaths are designed for, pedestrians and if not a clearly designed and marked shared zone, the pedestrians need to take precedence. I’m talking standard footpaths here, that were never designed for the amount of bike traffic they are seeing.> Block-quote
      
      @morse - 100% agree. In my posts above I’m referring to standard footpaths as well and not specifically designed bike path shared zones, I did mention that there’s a standard footpath on one side of my street (which is the path I usually use) and a wider footpath with no nature strip on the other side, but even this is meant for pedestrians first, it’s not marked as a shared zone with bikes and scooters.
      - lunchbox99 on 29/10/2024 - 08:37
        
        @[Deactivated]: In qld it is legal to ride a bicycle on the footpath unless there is a no bicycles sign, but you must give way to pedestrians.
        
        Shared zone signs in busy areas just reinforces the default position to remind pedestrians to not obstruct the path.
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 09:00
        
        -3
        
        @lunchbox99: I don’t care about Queensland, I live in Sydney and this thread is about NSW, and my comments are about the regular wrong doings from e-scooter riders with poor attitudes towards pedestrians that often occurs here, and how when it becomes legal it’s just going to get worse.
        
        lunchbox99 on 29/10/2024 - 09:07
        
        +5
        
        @[Deactivated]: Lfmao, relax.
        
        The reason I mention qld experience is to illustrate that sharing these spaces is possible without getting hysterical about it.
        
        The fact that a small number of people ride bikes or scooters like idiots doesn’t mean everyone does it. It’s no different to cars or normal bicycles - there will always be idiots.
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 09:30
        
        @lunchbox99: I am relaxed. We have just having a conversation.
        
        I disagree that it’s only a small number of e-scooter riders that ride like idiots and do the wrong thing, it’s more like the opposite, a smaller percentage ride in a safe and respectful manor and are considerate to pedestrians. As I previously mentioned, I live close to a railway station, so I’ve already had a taste of what this new legislation is being setup for, I witness the behaviour of plenty of e-scooter riders on my street daily who are heading to and from the train station.
        
        They’re often in a rush to get to work or to get home as quickly as possible, and unlike cars on the road where there are rules, e-scooters riders are free to make decisions and make up their own rules to suit them on the footpath.
        
        us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 11:10
        
        @lunchbox99:
        
        The reason I mention qld experience is to illustrate that sharing these spaces is possible without getting hysterical about it.
        
        Similar experience in WA. I ride and scoot on shared paths. The vast majority of pedestrians understand that the bell is just to give fair warning that you'll be passing them in a moment and respect goes both ways. For people with headphones I slow down a little and give them the widest berth possible.
        
        The occasional peanut seems to think you're chasing them off the path. What I've learned from your interaction with Billy Bob is that it's probably futile to try and educate them.
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 11:31
        
        -1
        
        @us3rnam3tak3n:
        
        Block-quote The occasional peanut seems to think you're chasing them off the path. What I've learned from your interaction with Billy Bob is that it's probably futile to try and educate them. > Block-quote
        
        The use of the bell was one small gripe, but that’s not my main issue. My posts were more about the amount of irresponsible and disrespectful e-scooter riders, who I would argue don’t have the skills to ride e-scooters properly and have no business being on footpath.
        
        Based on my observation of this thread, what seems futile is trying to educate e-scooters riders that footpaths aren’t equal share spaces, and e-scooters riders actually realising and acknowledging that pedestrians have more right to the footpath than they do.
        
        us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 11:47
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        e-scooters riders actually realising and acknowledging that pedestrians have more right to the footpath than they do
        
        It's these kind of attitudes that cause fractious interactions. It's a shared space. The onus is on the operator of the vehicle to avoid a collision, just like car vs pedestrian on the road. It doesn't mean that pedestrians don't need to allow room for others.
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 11:56
        
        @us3rnam3tak3n: Indeed the onus is on the rider not collide with pedestrians. Nowhere did I say that pedestrians shouldn’t allow room for others where it’s available, what I have said is standard size footpaths are really no place for e-scooters, and when there’s not enough space on the footpath bike and e-scooter riders should be riding around the pedestrian even if it means the rider needs to ride on muddy grass and get their bike or e-scooter dirty, the pedestrian shouldn’t be expected to walk on the grass to make way for bikes and e-scooters.
        
        No it’s not an equally shared space, show me in the NSW legislation where it states that bike riders and e-scooters riders have equal rights on the footpaths as pedestrians do, and that pedestrians have to give way to bikes and e-scooters? Footpath rules and etiquette have always favoured the pedestrian and given pedestrians more rights, and bikes or in this case e-scooters have to give way to pedestrians.
        
        us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 13:15
        
        @[Deactivated]: You're confusing "must give way to" with equal/more rights. Cars must give way to pedestrians on the road. This doesn't mean that cars have fewer rights or that pedestrians may wander into the street without consideration for drivers.
        
        Or if you're driving into the terminating leg of a T junction you must give way to the vehicles on the non terminating road. It's not a matter of rights.
        
        On the shared paths it only works if there's consideration and respect both ways.
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 13:39
        
        -1
        
        @us3rnam3tak3n:
        
        Block-quoteYou're confusing "must give way to" with equal/more rights. Cars must give way to pedestrians on the road. This doesn't mean that cars have fewer rights or that pedestrians may wander into the street without consideration for drivers.> Block-quote
        
        This entire paragraph of yours suggests you’re the only one that’s confused, and that you are living by an incorrect ideology, as you honestly seem to believe what you’re saying that footpaths truly are shared spaces for pedestrians, bike riders and e-scooter riders, when they’re not, and that you think the rules and legislation grant equal rights to bike and e-scooters riders on footpaths as it does to pedestrians, which is not true. And while e-scooters riders like you wrongfully take this stance and continue to be uneducated regarding this matter, there will always be problems, and is exactly why this new legislation is destined to fail.
        
        Block-quoteOn the shared paths it only works if there's consideration and respect both ways.> Block-quote
        
        Again, footpaths are not ‘equally’ shared paths, pedestrians have more rights under the NSW legislation than bike riders and e-scooters riders do on footpaths, therefore respect isn’t a two way street, e-scooters riders must respect pedestrians far more than pedestrians have to respect e-scooters riders.
        
        us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 14:35
        
        -1
        
        @[Deactivated]: "Give way to" does not mean that the other party has "right of way" or ownership of the path. I hope your driving is more nuanced than your walking etiquette.
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/10/2024 - 14:42
        
        -1
        
        @us3rnam3tak3n: You’re still not getting it. Pedestrians by law do have more rights to the ownership of said footpaths over the other party that’s riding a bike or e-scooter.
        
        In fact in NSW it’s generally illegal for a person over the age of 16 to ride a bike on the footpath. If you think for a second that when e-scooter riding on footpaths in NSW is legalised that this will give e-scooters riders that same rights as pedestrians, you’re dreaming.
        
        us3rnam3tak3n on 30/10/2024 - 16:22
        
        +1
        
        @[Deactivated]: I never said bikes/scooter don't give way. I've been trying to get you to understand that there is no such thing as "right of way", "ownership of path" or "more rights than others" on paths or the road. Bikes/scooters give way but pedestrians cooperate to allow smooth flow of traffic. You seem resistant to the latter. As I said from the start - it works in WA because there is typically mutual respect on the shared paths.
        
        [Deactivated] on 30/10/2024 - 16:35
        
        -1
        
        @us3rnam3tak3n: I never said that you said that e-scooter riders never give way, you don’t seem to understand what I’m saying, which is e-scooters should always give way to pedestrians on the footpath, pedestrians should not be giving way to e-scooters. What I’ve been trying to get you to understand is that you’re wrong and incorrect about footpaths being equally shared spaces for pedestrians, push bikes and e-scooters, and also about “there is no such thing as right of way, ownership of path, or more rights than others on footpaths”, when the Legislation says otherwise… For starters it’s currently illegal in NSW for people to ride e-scooters on footpaths, and it’s also illegal for people over the age of 16 to ride push bikes on footpaths, therefore that’s the winning point in this discussion right there that pedestrians do have more right to be on footpaths than e-scooter riders without even needing to quote legislation stating that pedestrians do in fact have more right to the footpath than push bike and e-scooters riders.
    - ThithLord on 29/10/2024 - 09:46
      
      Fair enough; you're two examples are specific whereas I ride my bike to and from work M-F, so I see a lot more behaviour aligned to pedestrians hating being forewarned and hating not being forewarned by a short bell-ring, lmao.
      
      If there was proper cycling infrastructure in Toowoomba on my route I'd definitely use that. I use a mix of path/road, depending on the width of the road. I'm only on the road for short stints. But again, people hate bicycles on the road, but then pedestrians hate bicycles on the path. I'm sounding my bell out of courtesy on the footpath.
      - morse on 29/10/2024 - 09:58
        
        @ThithLord: Yes, I think that's the issue. It not well set up for it and now pedestrians are fearful hence they probably don't love the bell. I agree, you can't really win, but probably best to keep going with the bell and also ensure you are giving way to pedestrians on footpaths, which it sounds like you are.
jv on 28/10/2024 - 13:04

+9

NSW Is Set to Legalise eScooters for Commuters Travelling to Work

How will they return home ?
- pyramid on 28/10/2024 - 13:13
  
  +1
  
  Robotaxi
  - jv on 28/10/2024 - 13:20
    
    🚕
Clear on 28/10/2024 - 13:10

+6

About time this happens. NSW finally starting to get with the rest of the world.
- jv on 28/10/2024 - 13:21
  
  -1
  
  Melbourne recently banned them again.
  - Clear on 28/10/2024 - 13:42
    
    +1
    
    Rental scooters are bad.
  - Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/10/2024 - 19:08
    
    +4
    
    No Melbourne did not.
    - jv on 28/10/2024 - 19:10
      
      Melbourne did ban all the hire ones.
      - Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/10/2024 - 20:46
        
        +5
        
        @jv: No one is talking about hire ones here.
        
        jv on 28/10/2024 - 21:21
        
        +3
        
        @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:
        
        No one is talking about hire ones here.
        
        That is incorrect.
        
        us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 11:12
        
        @jv: Hire scooters are typically geolocked making it impossible to use them to commute via train.
- maverickjohn on 31/10/2024 - 00:20
  
  Nahhh they are a hazard.. can't stand them.
  Wish they never existed to be honest.. people are driving these in high foot traffic areas and the problem is they get away with it as it's not always policed.
  Jackasses down right piss me off.
Boioioioi on 28/10/2024 - 14:21

+1

I hate escooters. More specifically escooter users. Needs to be regulated more if they are encouraged in my opinion. I live in QLD and the number of times some stupid kid zooms way too close to me going 70km/hr on the footpath…
- jv on 28/10/2024 - 14:58
  
  +5
  
  They shouldn't be on the footpath in the first place…
  - Boioioioi on 28/10/2024 - 14:59
    
    +3
    
    Exactly my point
    - jv on 28/10/2024 - 15:02
      
      +6
      
      Need to increase fines and start policing this before more people die.
      
      That is why the Melbourne city council banned the hire ones. They were by far the worst offenders.
      
      Only city I've seen the hire ones work well is Canberra.
      - morse on 29/10/2024 - 04:25
        
        +2
        
        @jv: I agree but I have no idea how they do this is practice. On the Gold Coast the vast majority of people speeding and riding e-bikes far too fast on footpath are underage. How do the cops fine a 14yo doing 30km/hr on a footpath? If they follow them in a car they risk hurting/killing the kid. The only thing I can think of is police tracking down where they live and speaking to the parents, who are well aware their kids are doing this and say “let them have fun”. The bikes are meant to be pedalled when moving but they are basically just riding e dirt bikes on footpaths, bike paths and the middle of the road (often in groups doing wheelies etc). It’s meant to be single rider, but I see 2-3 kids on a e-bike regularly, often no helmets either. Sure technically all this is illegal, but what could the cops actually do?
        
        Last week we saw a 9yo tragically die after being hit by a car as a pillion passenger on an e-bike. This family was on two bikes between 4 people, wearing helmets and nothing to suggest driving recklessly. But this family like many others disregard the “no doubling” rule. It’s so common to see on the GC that I wouldn’t be surprised if this family weren’t aware of the rules and how it contributes to safety. So incredibly sad for this family.
        
        It’s more the norm to see people using the bikes and scooters outside of the defined rules than within them here.
        
        jv on 29/10/2024 - 09:33
        
        @morse:
        
        How do the cops fine a 14yo doing 30km/hr on a footpath?
        
        Confiscate the bike/scooter for a start.
        
        morse on 29/10/2024 - 10:07
        
        @jv: They'd have to stop them to do that - I would think that would be hard to do safely. That's what I mean, they'd have to follow them home to confiscate it. I do believe they do this at times, but if they did it for every one they will get massive community backlash. It's crazy common in my area. Kids are saving up to buy the bikes or parents are buying them for Christmas/birthday presents. Families are riding them together. The community is divided on the issue, so even though the laws are the laws, I think the police only do something about the extreme cases. We've even had kids rip up one of the parks with their e trail bikes when the ground was soggy and when someone posted on a facebook community page, everyone turned on them and called them a Karen etc. Gold Coast is quite unique that way. I doubt our newly elected councillor or MP are going to want ask the Police to step up policing this.

NSW Is Set to Legalise eScooters for Commuters Travelling to Work

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