NSW Is Set to Legalise eScooters for Commuters Travelling to Work

RichardL on 28/10/2024 - 12:35
Last edited 28/10/2024 - 12:36

The 'E-micromobility action plan', which was released ahead of a parliamentary inquiry into electric scooters and bikes, is pushing to legalise and regulate the devices.

Transport Minister Jo Haylen is pushing the bold plan which would see e-bikes and e-scooters, including shared hire scooters, become legal for commuters riding to and from railway and Metro stations.

Under the proposed plan, e-scooter riders must be aged 16 years and over, are legally required to wear a helmet and must ride in designated bike paths or shared zones

Source: Daily Mail

NSW is one of the last state where it's still illegal to ride eScooters.

Hopefully it's not just for riding to and from railway and Metro stations…

Travel Electric Scooter

Comments

  • Knightchampion on 28/10/2024 - 12:46
    +3

    Is there any date to this. What are the chances it can be legalised by this year?

  • ForkSnorter on 28/10/2024 - 12:54
    +26

    "legal for commuters riding to and from railway and Metro stations"

    How are they going to enforce this? Wherever you are, you can just say you're on the way to the station.

    • Mechz on 28/10/2024 - 14:09
      +10

      Except the times when you're riding from the station.

    • freefall101 on 28/10/2024 - 14:41
      +3

      I imagine they won't, except to pick up people riding around the CBD in the middle of the day.

      However what it will give them is a level of deniability when injuries start to happen. Simply blame the injuries on people who weren't commuting to/from work. Also means they don't need to update infrastructure at all, because access to train stations is usually pretty good from residential areas, but riding around other areas may not be. So if you get hurt it's your fault if you weren't using it to commute.

      Or from a less pessimistic attitude, it allows them to better monitor results. Keep an eye on things between 7am-9am and 4pm-6pm each day where you get the most users. Also mostly limits riding to daylight hours without putting in a specific curfew.

    • JediJan on 29/10/2024 - 21:40

      More headaches for the Police to check on. Maybe they will need more staff for a separate e-Police unit.

  • tanksinatra on 28/10/2024 - 13:02
    +10

    Good idea. It's always been a bit of an oddity that electric bikes have been legal but electric scooters haven't been. I hope this also includes other flavours of micromobility like electric skateboards etc.

    become legal for commuters riding to and from railway and Metro stations.

    This bit seems odd. Not sure what they are going for with stipulation.

    • CrowReally on 28/10/2024 - 15:26

      General public concern about them being used for joyrides and recklessly/on footpaths, endangering pedestrians etc.

      So they announce they're only to be used on cycle paths/designated lanes and only for connecting work and train stations.

      • CaptainJack on 29/10/2024 - 10:05
        +3

        Just seems a lot easier to determine (and then issue a fine) that the scooter was being used on a footpath or recklessly, than the stipulation that it has to be used to/from a train station?

        But idk how these things work.

        • CrowReally on 29/10/2024 - 10:20
          +1

          People hate the idea of scooters because "recklessly/pavement". In public consensus there isn't a socially responsible usecase for it because misuse would outweigh the supposed benefits (much like disposable vapes).

          So the stipulation for allowing this thing is "okay we hate them but they're being permitted for workers who use public transport to use as a convenience, in designated areas".

          They've stipulated the social good to gain consensus it's not a terrible idea.

          There would always be a fine for improper pavement use, and there will always be hardly any enforcement because where are the enforcers etc. The announcement is not about wargaming the best way to collect fines, it's to sell the public on why the scheme should be allowed.

          • CaptainJack on 30/10/2024 - 09:35

            @CrowReally: Yeah if that is the case it sounds fkn dumb. If I'm upset about people riding dangerously on the pavement, then the only way it's getting sold to me is if they are going to crack down on people doing that.

            • CrowReally on 30/10/2024 - 10:00

              @CaptainJack: Yeah, they don't have the manpower to dedicate to that but I agree, it's terrible.

              If they made ebikes have a license plate of some sort and a "send snap solve" style app that would allow pedestrians to log the offenders then that might shift the balance (but good luck getting any sort of cyclist to agree to a license plate)

    • HeWhoKnows on 29/10/2024 - 08:11
      +3

      Experience in Melbourne says otherwise.

      Melbourne has now banned hire e-scooters in the city

      https://www.drive.com.au/news/melbourne-set-to-ban-e-scooter…

      • SirCH on 29/10/2024 - 12:30
        +2

        The key point in what you have said is hired e-scooters.

        From my observations as a worker in the city, I think this is a positive move. People who have personal e-scooters generally use them for commuting and generally use them responsibly, with helmets, and in bike lanes.

        Conversely, a significant number of people using rented e-scooters were double-dinking and/or not wearing a helmet and/or powering down a footpath.

        • gromit on 29/10/2024 - 16:05

          use them responsibly? hell no. so many people mod them so they can do high speeds and ride on the footpath. However unlike the inconsiderate pricks that use the rental scooters they tend not to dump them on the footpath, in front of doorways or other places that tend to cause incidents as owners don't actually want their scooter damaged.

    • Lastchancetosee on 29/10/2024 - 08:49
      +2

      For privately-owned scooters it may avoid having scooters left everywhere, as limiting their use to commuting to work and on trains, owners will bring them with them.

      For hired scooters, I can't see how it would change anything from now.

  • Billy Bob on 28/10/2024 - 13:04
    -3

    This will just make e-scooter riders even ruder and more arrogant than they already are, thinking they own the footpath and have the right away over pedestrians. Many e-scooters rides now beep their horns expecting pedestrians to move out of the way for them, and for pedestrians to walk on to the muddy grass when it’s been raining, when the e-scooter riders should be the ones riding around pedestrians onto the muddy grass if they want to get past pedestrians.

    • brotherfranciz on 28/10/2024 - 13:31
      +9

      Under the proposed plan, e-scooter riders must be aged 16 years and over, are legally required to wear a helmet and must ride in designated bike paths or shared zones

      You do raise an interesting complaint though:

      The use of bike bells is an interesting issue. It's legally required on all bikes, but pedestrians get annoyed by their use, which is somewhat understandable because car horns (the equivalent warning sound for cars) are intended for certain situations only - imagine using your car horn every time you had to overtake another vehicle (like cyclists being expected to use the bell every time they overtake a pedestrian)… But bike bells are also completely worthless on the road - good luck getting car drivers to hear the bell!

      I think sometimes pedestrians misunderstand the use of the bike bell, which is really more of a warning that a bike is approaching from behind, so the pedestrian doesn't inadvertently meander into the cyclist's path. The bike bell isn't usually used to tell the pedestrian to get out of the way.

      Whenever I ride my road bike on a shared path and there are pedestrians ahead, I usually freewheel so my hub makes a soft/gentle/inoffensive noise (and the bike naturally slows down too) and I go as far to the right hand side of the path as I can, and I say thank you as I go past. It does get a little tricky if pedestrians have earphones on though, so no matter if I freewheel, use the bell or even call out, the pedestrian may get a fright.

      Edit: I didn't neg you.

      • fantombloo on 28/10/2024 - 13:44
        +1

        imagine using your car horn every time you had to overtake another vehicle

        No need to imagine - a good chunk of the world does this. Personally it's a chief marker for using local drivers rather than hiring a car and self driving when o/s.

    • ThithLord on 28/10/2024 - 14:07
      +11

      Many e-scooters rides now beep their horns expecting pedestrians to move out of the way for them

      Is this the case, though? often there is a disconnect between riders and pedestrians, which I experience on my bike.

      I often will sound my bell when approaching a pedestrian from behind so as to not completely shock them as I ride past. It also is a signal to not walk aimlessly across the width of the path, which pedestrians often do because they are focused on what's in front of them, not behind.

      Sometimes it infuriates pedestrians who think I'm trying to get them to move over, sometimes it infuriates pedestrians if I don't signal my bell and ride past them giving them shock. You can't win.

      • Billy Bob on 28/10/2024 - 21:54
        -4

        Block-quote Is this the case, though? often there is a disconnect between riders and pedestrians, which I experience on my bike.> Block-quote

        @ThithLord - Yes it is the case the majority of the time, perhaps there is the odd circumstance where I misinterpreted it. It happens not just from behind, but also from e-scooters riders approaching from front on. I walk a lot, and I also live close to a railway station.

        I will admit the bell rings can be annoying and they do sometimes startle you when often it wasn’t necessary for them to ring their bell, which I find rude. There is a wide footpath on one side of the road on the street I live on (on the opposite side of the road there’s also a standard width footpath), so in most situations there’s no need for any riders to ring their bell because there’s enough room for everyone and they should be able to safely ride around pedestrians without needing to alert them of their presence.

        It’s teenagers close to adult age and young men between 20 and 30 that do it the most, they just don’t seem to have a high level of manners and don’t appear to understand footpath etiquette, or they don’t care. The next highest offenders are the food delivery riders, delivering food like El Jannah to people that live 5 minutes away from the restaurant who are too lazy to go and pick it up themselves.

        As another member mentioned, e-scooter riders shouldn’t be on the footpath to begin with. And if it does become legal in NSW I can see a lot arguments and physical altercations/fist fights occurring between pedestrians and e-scooter riders as a result of e-scooter riders and their attitudes, especially in Sydney.

        I remember about 20 years ago I was walking with a mate on the footpath, and some bogan was coming towards us from the front pedalling at a high speed on his push bike expect us to move. I didn’t move a cm, so as he passed me he purposely shoulder barged me, I lost my balance and fell over on the grass but instantly got up and wasn’t injured, while the idiot bike rider went head first over the handle bars and fell on his chin. He got up with blood pissing from his face yelling and screaming at me for not getting out of his way and thought in his warped mind that he was actually in the right… At first he wanted to blue over it but he quickly backed down. Just the same now as a pedestrian, I won’t move out of the way for any e-scooter rider.

        • johnno07 on 28/10/2024 - 23:33
          +11

          Just the same now as a pedestrian, I won’t move out of the way for any e-scooter rider.

          This is the problem. These are shared spaces. Not just for pedestrians. Not just for cyclists. Not just for e-scooter riders.
          I can also assure you that a 25kg scooter hitting a 20-year-older version of yourself is going to have a decidedly different outcome than your bicycle run-in back in the good ol' days.

          • Billy Bob on 28/10/2024 - 23:44

            @johnno07: I work for a council, we will see just how well it all works out for e-scooter riders when it becomes legalised, I’m pretty confident that it won’t end well. The etiquette and rules on footpaths have always been pedestrians first before anyone/thing else and that pedestrians have the right away.

            And your example of the damage an e-scooter rider can do to a person if they hit someone walking on the footpath is exactly why e-scooters shouldn’t be allowed on the footpath.

            • johnno07 on 28/10/2024 - 23:52
              +6

              @Billy Bob: Fortunately Brisbane has avoided the "old man yells at cloud" approach to new private transportation options - legalising scooters has been a huge boon to our network.

              And your example of the damage an e-scooter rider can do to a person if they hit someone on the footpath is exactly why e-scooters shouldn’t be allowed on the footpath.

              No, this is an example of why you should practice self-preservation. I assume you don't walk out onto zebra crossings with your eyes closed? Right of way does not stop you from being evaporated by a B-Double.

              • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 00:05
                -5

                @johnno07:

                Block-quoteFortunately Brisbane has avoided the "old man yells at cloud" approach to new private transportation options - legalising scooters has been a huge boon to our network.> Block-quote

                And I’m sure this 43 year old millennial gen man is fitter than many e-scooters riders that are younger.

                Block-quoteNo, this is an example of why you should practice self-preservation. I assume you don't walk out onto zebra crossings with your eyes closed? Right of way does not stop you from being evaporated by a B-Double.> Block-quote

                That’s a bit of a silly example. Of course I don’t walk out on to zebra crossings with my eyes closed, however as a pedestrian I do have the right away just as I do over e-scooter riders on the footpath. I don’t have children by choice, I don’t want kids, and therefore I don’t have the same fears as the majority of people, and aren’t as concerned about my safety… I do walk out on to zebra crossings if I have the right away, and if a car hits me the driver will probably be the one in trouble with the law because I had the right away.

                • johnno07 on 29/10/2024 - 00:21
                  +8

                  @Billy Bob:

                  I do walk out on to zebra crossings if I have the right away, and if a car hits me the driver will probably be the one in trouble with the law because I had the right away.

                  Well this sentence sufficiently satisfies me that further conversation is unlikely to reach any great heights. Go about your night.

                  • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 00:31

                    @johnno07: As a pedestrian it’s not my job to look out and move for speeding e-scooters on the footpath just in case they hit me, it’s the job of the e-scooter rider that shouldn’t be riding them on the footpath in the first place to make sure they don’t hit me, otherwise if they hurt me they will suffer the consequences. Obviously we don’t agree, but that doesn’t matter, because the fact is your opinion is the losing opinion because the e-scooter rider will be the one in trouble with the law if they hit a pedestrian on the footpath, not the other way around.

                  • CrowReally on 29/10/2024 - 10:28

                    @johnno07: I love the way you've phrased this, nice work.

                    Billy-Bob, what good is the moral high ground of knowing you have right of way as your one and only human body disappears under the grill of a SUV? Have you pre-recorded a sarcastic eulogy to play at your funeral on the offchance they attend it out of guilt?

                    • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 11:04

                      @CrowReally: What moral high ground? There’s always a risk when a pedestrian crosses a road that it could cost them their life. Nowhere did I say that I don’t look before crossing at a Zebra crossing. What I said is that I as pedestrian I am obeying the road rules at a Zebra crossing and have right away, if car doesn’t slow down when approaching a zebra crossing and stop for pedestrians, then they have done the wrong thing and perhaps they shouldn’t have a drivers licence and be allowed on the road to begin with, and if they hit a pedestrian due to their negligence, the driver deserves to have their live destroyed from being charged with the crime.

                      • CrowReally on 29/10/2024 - 11:57
                        +1

                        @Billy Bob:

                        I do walk out on to zebra crossings if I have the right away, and if a car hits me the driver will probably be the one in trouble with the law because I had the right away

                        Pedestrians always have right of way on zebra crossings, so the good news is you don't need to check for that anymore, you can step out onto it with your eyes closed and be "in the right".

                        Now that you know this, you can follow through on your beliefs and get some lawbreakers into trouble.

                  • kiitos on 29/10/2024 - 15:25

                    @johnno07: Yessir, right away!

            • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 04:41

              @Billy Bob:

              Block-quoteThe etiquette and rules on footpaths have always been pedestrians first before anyone/thing else and that pedestrians have the right away.> Block-quote

              Just to add to this comment of mine, the exception being wheelchairs and mobility scooters for the disabled of course.

              • resisting the urge on 30/10/2024 - 07:47

                @Billy Bob: Plenty of mobiilty scooters and wheelchairs have caused havoc running into pedestrians and driving over feet. Whether it be cranky riders, sadistic, mentally ill or unfit, crushed feet and broken bones have long term impacts that few think about before a collision. Even with extremely speed limited ones in controlled environments like museums and Westfields it happens.

                Of course e-mobility needs to happen, the problem is that infrastructure in NSW is so poor, with cramped, uncared for footpaths that were never designed to match their use-case, or are hopelessly overcrowded. The problem, like most things is the (lack of) planning and overdevelopment that so few seem to care about.

                Politicians avoid grasping all the resulting e-nettles, so the end result is always impossibly risk-averse, or at best a trial, followed by a ban or an impossible complication of the rules that more involves more hapless bureaucracy and fining everyone. In the meantime, more chaos reigns in which we will have no chance of getting to work, let alone developing eyes in the back of our heads to move the right way for a beeping scooter.

                • Billy Bob on 30/10/2024 - 08:27

                  @resisting the urge:

                  Block-quote Plenty of mobiilty scooters and wheelchairs have caused havoc running into pedestrians and driving over feet. > Block-quote

                  No doubt. What I meant by that comment is that there is a footpath etiquette where pedestrians out of politeness move out of the way for disabled people in wheelchairs and mobility scooters on footpaths and walk around them on to the grass to let them by, whereas e-scooters riders on the other hand get no such pass, it’s the e-scooter riders that have to treat pedestrians as pedestrians do disabled people in wheelchairs and mobility scooters and move out of pedestrians way on footpaths.

      • morse on 29/10/2024 - 03:59
        +7

        It can be the case. I’ve had a teenager on an e bike with parent (dual passenger) ask me to “move” so they could overtake, which would have required me to step off the path with my much younger child, in a crowded area due to an event. I flatly said no and to consider others safety at least the parent gave them some guidance after. I’ve also had a lady be shocked that she suddenly had to stop and swerve her e-bike when my kid was coming of a bus onto the footpath, and shake her head like “who knew pedestrians disembarked buses a bus stops” that was actually a pretty close near miss. Not all these bike and scooter users have good awareness of their surroundings.

        Where I live on the Gold Coast you’re meant to be 16 to ride an e-bike without adult supervision, but of course no one follows this and kids as young as 10, but more often around 12 are riding them around with no supervision and absolutely flying on footpaths with no regard for others. But then the middle age people are often worse, unfit, weren’t regular bike riders before switching to an e-bike and just don’t have their head around the fact pedestrians are on the path too.

        It also is a signal to not walk aimlessly across the width of the path, which pedestrians often do because they are focused on what's in front of them, not behind.

        This is the inherent problem of mixing the two. My kid is getting better now, but as a toddler I really couldn’t guarantee they aren’t going to drift when walking. Not all bike and scooter riders have the patience for this. But at the end of the day that’s what footpaths are designed for, pedestrians and if not a clearly designed and marked shared zone, the pedestrians need to take precedence. I’m talking standard footpaths here, that were never designed for the amount of bike traffic they are seeing.

        • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 05:02
          +3

          Block-quoteBut at the end of the day that’s what footpaths are designed for, pedestrians and if not a clearly designed and marked shared zone, the pedestrians need to take precedence. I’m talking standard footpaths here, that were never designed for the amount of bike traffic they are seeing.> Block-quote

          @morse - 100% agree. In my posts above I’m referring to standard footpaths as well and not specifically designed bike path shared zones, I did mention that there’s a standard footpath on one side of my street (which is the path I usually use) and a wider footpath with no nature strip on the other side, but even this is meant for pedestrians first, it’s not marked as a shared zone with bikes and scooters.

          • lunchbox99 on 29/10/2024 - 08:37
            +1

            @Billy Bob: In qld it is legal to ride a bicycle on the footpath unless there is a no bicycles sign, but you must give way to pedestrians.

            Shared zone signs in busy areas just reinforces the default position to remind pedestrians to not obstruct the path.

            • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 09:00

              @lunchbox99: I don’t care about Queensland, I live in Sydney and this thread is about NSW, and my comments are about the regular wrong doings from e-scooter riders with poor attitudes towards pedestrians that often occurs here, and how when it becomes legal it’s just going to get worse.

              • lunchbox99 on 29/10/2024 - 09:07
                +4

                @Billy Bob: Lfmao, relax.

                The reason I mention qld experience is to illustrate that sharing these spaces is possible without getting hysterical about it.

                The fact that a small number of people ride bikes or scooters like idiots doesn’t mean everyone does it. It’s no different to cars or normal bicycles - there will always be idiots.

                • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 09:30

                  @lunchbox99: I am relaxed. We have just having a conversation.

                  I disagree that it’s only a small number of e-scooter riders that ride like idiots and do the wrong thing, it’s more like the opposite, a smaller percentage ride in a safe and respectful manor and are considerate to pedestrians. As I previously mentioned, I live close to a railway station, so I’ve already had a taste of what this new legislation is being setup for, I witness the behaviour of plenty of e-scooter riders on my street daily who are heading to and from the train station.

                  They’re often in a rush to get to work or to get home as quickly as possible, and unlike cars on the road where there are rules, e-scooters riders are free to make decisions and make up their own rules to suit them on the footpath.

                • us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 11:10

                  @lunchbox99:

                  The reason I mention qld experience is to illustrate that sharing these spaces is possible without getting hysterical about it.

                  Similar experience in WA. I ride and scoot on shared paths. The vast majority of pedestrians understand that the bell is just to give fair warning that you'll be passing them in a moment and respect goes both ways. For people with headphones I slow down a little and give them the widest berth possible.

                  The occasional peanut seems to think you're chasing them off the path. What I've learned from your interaction with Billy Bob is that it's probably futile to try and educate them.

                  • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 11:31

                    @us3rnam3tak3n:

                    Block-quote The occasional peanut seems to think you're chasing them off the path. What I've learned from your interaction with Billy Bob is that it's probably futile to try and educate them. > Block-quote

                    The use of the bell was one small gripe, but that’s not my main issue. My posts were more about the amount of irresponsible and disrespectful e-scooter riders, who I would argue don’t have the skills to ride e-scooters properly and have no business being on footpath.

                    Based on my observation of this thread, what seems futile is trying to educate e-scooters riders that footpaths aren’t equal share spaces, and e-scooters riders actually realising and acknowledging that pedestrians have more right to the footpath than they do.

                    • us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 11:47

                      @Billy Bob:

                      e-scooters riders actually realising and acknowledging that pedestrians have more right to the footpath than they do

                      It's these kind of attitudes that cause fractious interactions. It's a shared space. The onus is on the operator of the vehicle to avoid a collision, just like car vs pedestrian on the road. It doesn't mean that pedestrians don't need to allow room for others.

                      • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 11:56

                        @us3rnam3tak3n: Indeed the onus is on the rider not collide with pedestrians. Nowhere did I say that pedestrians shouldn’t allow room for others where it’s available, what I have said is standard size footpaths are really no place for e-scooters, and when there’s not enough space on the footpath bike and e-scooter riders should be riding around the pedestrian even if it means the rider needs to ride on muddy grass and get their bike or e-scooter dirty, the pedestrian shouldn’t be expected to walk on the grass to make way for bikes and e-scooters.

                        No it’s not an equally shared space, show me in the NSW legislation where it states that bike riders and e-scooters riders have equal rights on the footpaths as pedestrians do, and that pedestrians have to give way to bikes and e-scooters? Footpath rules and etiquette have always favoured the pedestrian and given pedestrians more rights, and bikes or in this case e-scooters have to give way to pedestrians.

                        • us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 13:15

                          @Billy Bob: You're confusing "must give way to" with equal/more rights. Cars must give way to pedestrians on the road. This doesn't mean that cars have fewer rights or that pedestrians may wander into the street without consideration for drivers.

                          Or if you're driving into the terminating leg of a T junction you must give way to the vehicles on the non terminating road. It's not a matter of rights.

                          On the shared paths it only works if there's consideration and respect both ways.

                          • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 13:39

                            @us3rnam3tak3n:

                            Block-quoteYou're confusing "must give way to" with equal/more rights. Cars must give way to pedestrians on the road. This doesn't mean that cars have fewer rights or that pedestrians may wander into the street without consideration for drivers.> Block-quote

                            This entire paragraph of yours suggests you’re the only one that’s confused, and that you are living by an incorrect ideology, as you honestly seem to believe what you’re saying that footpaths truly are shared spaces for pedestrians, bike riders and e-scooter riders, when they’re not, and that you think the rules and legislation grant equal rights to bike and e-scooters riders on footpaths as it does to pedestrians, which is not true. And while e-scooters riders like you wrongfully take this stance and continue to be uneducated regarding this matter, there will always be problems, and is exactly why this new legislation is destined to fail.

                            Block-quoteOn the shared paths it only works if there's consideration and respect both ways.> Block-quote

                            Again, footpaths are not ‘equally’ shared paths, pedestrians have more rights under the NSW legislation than bike riders and e-scooters riders do on footpaths, therefore respect isn’t a two way street, e-scooters riders must respect pedestrians far more than pedestrians have to respect e-scooters riders.

                            • us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 14:35

                              @Billy Bob: "Give way to" does not mean that the other party has "right of way" or ownership of the path. I hope your driving is more nuanced than your walking etiquette.

                              • Billy Bob on 29/10/2024 - 14:42

                                @us3rnam3tak3n: You’re still not getting it. Pedestrians by law do have more rights to the ownership of said footpaths over the other party that’s riding a bike or e-scooter.

                                In fact in NSW it’s generally illegal for a person over the age of 16 to ride a bike on the footpath. If you think for a second that when e-scooter riding on footpaths in NSW is legalised that this will give e-scooters riders that same rights as pedestrians, you’re dreaming.

        • ThithLord on 29/10/2024 - 09:46

          Fair enough; you're two examples are specific whereas I ride my bike to and from work M-F, so I see a lot more behaviour aligned to pedestrians hating being forewarned and hating not being forewarned by a short bell-ring, lmao.

          If there was proper cycling infrastructure in Toowoomba on my route I'd definitely use that. I use a mix of path/road, depending on the width of the road. I'm only on the road for short stints. But again, people hate bicycles on the road, but then pedestrians hate bicycles on the path. I'm sounding my bell out of courtesy on the footpath.

          • morse on 29/10/2024 - 09:58

            @ThithLord: Yes, I think that's the issue. It not well set up for it and now pedestrians are fearful hence they probably don't love the bell. I agree, you can't really win, but probably best to keep going with the bell and also ensure you are giving way to pedestrians on footpaths, which it sounds like you are.

  • jv on 28/10/2024 - 13:04
    +9

    NSW Is Set to Legalise eScooters for Commuters Travelling to Work

    How will they return home ?

    • pyramid on 28/10/2024 - 13:13
      +1

      Robotaxi

      • jv on 28/10/2024 - 13:20

        🚕

  • Clear on 28/10/2024 - 13:10
    +5

    About time this happens. NSW finally starting to get with the rest of the world.

    • jv on 28/10/2024 - 13:21

      Melbourne recently banned them again.

      • Clear on 28/10/2024 - 13:42
        +1

        Rental scooters are bad.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/10/2024 - 19:08
        +4

        No Melbourne did not.

        • jv on 28/10/2024 - 19:10
          +1

          Melbourne did ban all the hire ones.

          • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/10/2024 - 20:46
            +5

            @jv: No one is talking about hire ones here.

            • jv on 28/10/2024 - 21:21
              +4

              @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

              No one is talking about hire ones here.

              That is incorrect.

              • us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 11:12

                @jv: Hire scooters are typically geolocked making it impossible to use them to commute via train.

  • Boioioioi on 28/10/2024 - 14:21
    -1

    I hate escooters. More specifically escooter users. Needs to be regulated more if they are encouraged in my opinion. I live in QLD and the number of times some stupid kid zooms way too close to me going 70km/hr on the footpath…

    • jv on 28/10/2024 - 14:58
      +4

      They shouldn't be on the footpath in the first place…

      • Boioioioi on 28/10/2024 - 14:59
        +1

        Exactly my point

        • jv on 28/10/2024 - 15:02
          +4

          Need to increase fines and start policing this before more people die.

          That is why the Melbourne city council banned the hire ones. They were by far the worst offenders.

          Only city I've seen the hire ones work well is Canberra.

          • morse on 29/10/2024 - 04:25
            +1

            @jv: I agree but I have no idea how they do this is practice. On the Gold Coast the vast majority of people speeding and riding e-bikes far too fast on footpath are underage. How do the cops fine a 14yo doing 30km/hr on a footpath? If they follow them in a car they risk hurting/killing the kid. The only thing I can think of is police tracking down where they live and speaking to the parents, who are well aware their kids are doing this and say “let them have fun”. The bikes are meant to be pedalled when moving but they are basically just riding e dirt bikes on footpaths, bike paths and the middle of the road (often in groups doing wheelies etc). It’s meant to be single rider, but I see 2-3 kids on a e-bike regularly, often no helmets either. Sure technically all this is illegal, but what could the cops actually do?

            Last week we saw a 9yo tragically die after being hit by a car as a pillion passenger on an e-bike. This family was on two bikes between 4 people, wearing helmets and nothing to suggest driving recklessly. But this family like many others disregard the “no doubling” rule. It’s so common to see on the GC that I wouldn’t be surprised if this family weren’t aware of the rules and how it contributes to safety. So incredibly sad for this family.

            It’s more the norm to see people using the bikes and scooters outside of the defined rules than within them here.

            • jv on 29/10/2024 - 09:33

              @morse:

              How do the cops fine a 14yo doing 30km/hr on a footpath?

              Confiscate the bike/scooter for a start.

              • morse on 29/10/2024 - 10:07

                @jv: They'd have to stop them to do that - I would think that would be hard to do safely. That's what I mean, they'd have to follow them home to confiscate it. I do believe they do this at times, but if they did it for every one they will get massive community backlash. It's crazy common in my area. Kids are saving up to buy the bikes or parents are buying them for Christmas/birthday presents. Families are riding them together. The community is divided on the issue, so even though the laws are the laws, I think the police only do something about the extreme cases. We've even had kids rip up one of the parks with their e trail bikes when the ground was soggy and when someone posted on a facebook community page, everyone turned on them and called them a Karen etc. Gold Coast is quite unique that way. I doubt our newly elected councillor or MP are going to want ask the Police to step up policing this.

                • jv on 29/10/2024 - 10:11

                  @morse:

                  They'd have to stop them to do that

                  Stop Sticks

                  • morse on 29/10/2024 - 10:15

                    @jv: I'm pretty sure you can't catapult kids onto the pavement, even if they are breaking the law.

                    • jv on 29/10/2024 - 10:41

                      @morse:

                      I'm pretty sure you can't catapult kids onto the pavement

                      The kids would be doing it to themselves…

                      • morse on 29/10/2024 - 11:23

                        @jv: Whilst it’s all good and well to say this in an online forum. In reality, police dropping stop sticks in front of speeding scooters and bikes, injuring and possibly killing either children or adults isn’t going to fly.

                        • jv on 29/10/2024 - 11:27

                          @morse:

                          isn’t going to fly.

                          If they stopped, they wouldn't get injured or die.

                          They have a choice here.

              • us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 11:15

                @jv:

                Confiscate the bike/scooter for a start.

                Agree. If you're riding a vehicle that's been modified to break the speed limit it should be confiscated.

                • morse on 29/10/2024 - 11:20

                  @us3rnam3tak3n: Don’t disagree, but how is this enforced?

                  • us3rnam3tak3n on 29/10/2024 - 11:35
                    +1

                    @morse: It's an admittedly difficult job for police and rangers. Though spotting a scooter doing 60 when the limit is 25 is quite easy.

                    Fines, demerits and confiscation would be strong disincentives.

    • johnno07 on 29/10/2024 - 00:23
      +1

      I hate escooters. More specifically escooter users

      If it's any consolation, they probably hate you too?

    • quick-dry on 29/10/2024 - 14:37

      I don't think Aussies are significantly less courteous than the French, but when I lived in Bordeaux the escooter situation seemed to 'just work'. Whether out in suburban streets, the city streets, or the city's mixed/shared areas. You zipped along on the escooter where people weren't around, and you dropped it back to a slow speed if people were there.

      Are we that significantly different to other countries/cities? They did have a mandatory insurance, it was about $5 a month and similar to a CTP - though the providers seemed to differentiate themselves by offering theft or other additional coverage.

      • Boioioioi on 29/10/2024 - 15:01

        Yeah I dunno, I was in Sweden and it was fine there too. Just hate the implementation here in QLD. Again its a great idea, spoiled by rude users though

  • stickingly on 28/10/2024 - 16:02
    +3

    I love the idea of scooters and ebikes replacing cars, but they are a menace in the hands of the minority as they are unpoliced

    I was in the city in the weekend and saw many of them doing illegal and dangerous stuff in full view of police, who just didn't care.
    If they started fining people I think behaviour would change

  • watwatwat on 28/10/2024 - 17:43
    +7

    How sickening is it that 460,000 escooters exist/are being ridden in NSW right now and they are all technically illegal. ie. it's a game of Russian Roulette as to who gets away with it, or who has to pay up to $2500 in fines for driving an unregistered/uninsured motor vehicle.

    And society is just fine with police fleecing some people, not fleecing others.

    That said, thank you to Jo Haylen for helping progress this.

    I believe Andrew Constance lacked competence and was not a good guy.

  • BewareOfThe Dog on 28/10/2024 - 19:44

    Can they scoot in bus only/transit lanes, now there will be 50m cameras in Sydney???

  • JIMB0 on 28/10/2024 - 22:50

    What if you want to ride somewhere that is on the way to a train station? Do you have to ride to the station first? Then on the way back can you go straight home as technically you're on your way back from a station even though you made a stop on the way?

    • EBC on 29/10/2024 - 09:34
      +1

      I'm always on the way to a station as I will probably go to a station at some point in my life.

  • ass3ts on 29/10/2024 - 06:51
    -1

    2 in 3 adults in Australia are overweight/obese. Yet another reason to avoid walking.

    • JIMB0 on 29/10/2024 - 07:08
      -1

      The people who use them may ás well get a mobility scooter. It would save them having to walk once they got to the shops.

    • lunchbox99 on 29/10/2024 - 10:31
      +1

      In fairness people use them to travel much further than walking would be practical. In Brisbane people are regularly commuting 10km+ to the cbd. it would take you 2 hrs or more to walk that far.

      • ass3ts on 29/10/2024 - 11:19
        +1

        Previous research has indicated that the AVERAGE e-scooter trips are roughly 1-2km. Easily walkable.

        • lunchbox99 on 29/10/2024 - 11:42

          I don't know what to tell you… I ride 4x a week on a bicycle and I see many people on scooters on bikeways many km from the cbd. I see them on the M1 veloway in Brisbane, the coronation drive bikeway, the northern bikeway. They are clearly commuting to/from work in the cbd or near the cbd.

      • JIMB0 on 29/10/2024 - 12:03

        commuting 10km+

        That's an easy 30 minutes on a pushbike.

        • lunchbox99 on 29/10/2024 - 12:32

          20+kph sustained on terrain that is not perfectly flat is not easy for many people. it's certainly doable but I wouldn't call it "easy".

          • JIMB0 on 29/10/2024 - 12:42
            -1

            @lunchbox99: It'll get easier the more they do it. Beginners have the best gains.

    • whitepuma on 29/10/2024 - 11:26

      Don't think you understand. The plan is for this to encourage public transport use, pushing people away from cars.

      Overweight/obese people that refuse to walk aren't going to take public transport, they will just drive.

  • Myone888 on 29/10/2024 - 07:46
    +3

    New should impose insurance like any motorised vehicles. These e scooter are big n heavy and can knock down pedestrians.

    • Save Medicare on 29/10/2024 - 12:46

      Yes it is known as the medicare levy

  • YodaBaby on 29/10/2024 - 07:54

    Yes but will they adhere to the same road rules just like every other motor vehicle users? The crazy speed they use zooming past pedestrians especially on shared pathways or footpaths are ridiculous, will there be speed limits? Or will they be a**holes like cyclists.

  • bigbadboogieman on 29/10/2024 - 08:40
    +1

    I hope they include some form of licencing and insurance requirement so they can perform enforcement actions for rule breakers. It is a motorised vehicle and should be regulated in some way. It can absolutely damage property and hurt people.

    Police received 124 reports of e-scooter crashes in the three years between 2020 and 2023, which resulted in three deaths and 116 injuries - 40 of which were serious.

    Pedestrian Council of Australia CEO Harold Scruby labelled the uptake in private e-scooter and e-bikes as 'pure anarchy'.

    In his submission to the parliamentary inquiry into e-scooters and e-bikes, the pedestrian advocate said the devices would turn footpaths into a 'hostile' environment.

    'To show such utter contempt for pedestrians and turn footpaths into hostile and potentially lethal environments defies belief,' Mr Scruby said in his submission.

    The move to legalise e-scooters in NSW comes after Melbourne's city council banned them in August.

    Melbourne Lord Mayor Nick Reece filed an amended motion at a Future Melbourne committee meeting, which called for the contracts of e-scooter providers including Lime and Neuron to be cancelled.

  • saltypete on 29/10/2024 - 09:14
    +1

    It'll be a bit of a mess unless there's some decent education on the part of e-scooter users.
    Footpaths being shared doesn't mean the e-scooter or bikes have ROW. Horror of horrors - if you are on the faster conveyance, you need to slow down for the 5 seconds it generally takes to safely pass a pedestrian.
    Footpaths are not skinny roads made for e-scooter or bikes. The majority of bike riders 'get' this. Due to education and a general culture that has built up over time. E-scooters need to be educated.
    I dont think the hire scooters have been a good segue (or Segway🤣) into this form of transport.

    • lunchbox99 on 29/10/2024 - 10:38

      I regularly cycle to brisbane cbd. The people I most frequently see flying past pedestrians at high speed are the lyrca cycling crowd. They go very close to people and don't slow down at all.

      I also see plenty of pedestrians with zero situational awareness. Wandering all over the path, walking in dedicated bicycle lanes, walking 4 abreast occupying the entire path, walking on one side of the path with their dog on long leash on the opposite side of the path (leash blocking entire path both directions).

      Seriously you just have to slow down and ring your bell. Just be patient and tolerant. it doesn't really add much to your journey time.

      • BobLim on 29/10/2024 - 22:57

        it doesn't really add much to your journey time

        Maybe my routes are different to yours, but I occasionally cycle to work and doing ~4km/h for significant sections near my destination seems to add a fair bit of time compared to the 20-30km/h on the rest of the journey. The difference in travel time between quiet vs busy days on the same route is sometimes 10-15 mins

        Slowing right down for pedestrians with no clue (often in dedicated bikeways, or walking/playing/dogs going the same direction down both sides of a wide shared path with clear centreline), or to avoid erratic delivery riders on their illegal electric motorbikes making random stops and u-turns… it gets old quickly (and tiring especially on a hot day with heavy bags), over the course of an hour or so.

      • Subada on 30/10/2024 - 12:30

        Exactly. People can walk in groups and change direction suddenly. Cyclists/scooters on footpaths and shared paths need to take this into account.

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