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[NSW] DIY LiFePO4 Battery Workshop 10am 17/11/2024: $555 for 12V 105Ah 150A, $1499 12V 314Ah 250A @ Muller Energy

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[NSW] DIY LiFePO4 Battery Workshop 10am 17/11/2024: $555 for 12V 105Ah 150A, $1499 12V 314Ah 250A @ Muller Energy
Go to Deal
Store RepMullerEnergy on 04/10/2024 - 09:38 mullerenergy.com.au (1580 clicks)
Last edited 04/10/2024 - 13:17 by 1 other user

Given the success of the last workshop, we've decided to hold another one.
While the feedback we got from everyone was very positive, we've learnt a few lessons, meaning that this workshop will be even better.

We're offering a guided DIY workshop for anyone who might be interested in building a LiFePO4 battery. The workshop will be held at our warehouse in Somersby (just north of Sydney, near the now blue dinosaur on the freeway) on the 17th of November at 10am.

All cells we use are EVE automotive grade (the highest grade there is, directly certified by the supplier).

The 105Ah kit includes 4x 105Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 cells, a 150A JBD smart BMS with Bluetooth, epoxy boards to separate the cells, as well as bus bars and bolts.
If you were to buy all the bits separately on our website, it would cost you $759.50.

The 314Ah kit includes 4x 314Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 cells, a custom 250A Muller Energy smart BMS (made by JBD), epoxy boards to separate the cells, as well as bus bars and nuts. The special feature about this BMS is that it's the only one in the world that can control a 5A active balancer. An independent review of it can be found here.
This BMS also comes with a Bluetooth dongle, a 5A active balancer and a touchscreen.
If you were to buy these components separately on our website, it would cost you $1,755.
As a bonus for this kit, we'll also be offering new ABS brackets to secure and protect the cells, free of charge (as in no cost, the battery will have plenty of charge 😉)

So as you can see, there's a decent saving to be had here, plus a free workshop.
Consumables such as ring terminals, tape, hot glue (if desired) is also included in the price.

You can BYO tools and PPE if you want, otherwise, we can provide it for you.

As always, please feel free to ask any questions either on here, via email at [email protected] or over the phone on 0493 274 334.

Ruben 🙂

Electrical & Electronics 105Ah 12V 314Ah Battery Battery Monitor Control Panel LiFePO4 Lithium Battery Rechargeable Battery Workshop

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Muller Energy
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closed Comments

  • GenerallyClumsy on 04/10/2024 - 09:45

    Is that less than 50c/wh?

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 09:50
      +8

      The 105Ah kit comes to $0.41/Wh.
      The 314Ah kit comes to $0.37/Wh.

      This is based on the rated capacity, the actual capacity of the 105Ah is actually around 112Ah and the 314Ah is actually around 330Ah, so the cost per Wh is slightly lower than what I quoted.

      • GenerallyClumsy on 04/10/2024 - 10:01
        +2

        exciting.

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 10:20
          +38

          Looking forward to seeing you in November, though I'll make sure to provide you some additional supervision, given your username. 😁

          • GenerallyClumsy on 04/10/2024 - 11:19

            @MullerEnergy: Good call! I'm looking to move devices like fridges on batteries which charge driving the middle of the day during free OVO electricity.

  • Boioioioi on 04/10/2024 - 10:00

    Is this sort of battery applicable for home use? Or more for campervan type thing

    • 303-Acid on 04/10/2024 - 10:10
      +2

      I use my LiFePO4 in the car for camping. It has also come in handy for unscheduled power outages at home to keep my laptop and phone charged as I work from home.

      I was also thinking of a DIY battery myself, installing into a slim case: https://www.fpv-power.com.au/products/abssmallslimlinecase but decided to just go cheap off the shelf at this stage. The cheap slim off the shelf ones seem to be pouch cells though, so I'll see how it lasts. Might still go a DIY in the future.

      • M00Cow on 04/10/2024 - 11:29

        It has also come in handy for unscheduled power outages at home to keep my laptop and phone charged as I work from home.

        how did you make that? have you got a case with a usb-c PD outlet?

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 11:37
          +4

          If you were to come and build one, I'm happy to throw in a free 83W (18W USB A and 65W USB C) socket that can charge a laptop with only a USB C cable.

          • M00Cow on 04/10/2024 - 12:06

            @MullerEnergy: believe me I'd love too…but I'm a bit far away

            • m9 on 04/10/2024 - 12:10
              +2

              @M00Cow: This works. Or something as simple as this or this with any charger of your choosing.

              • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 12:15
                +6

                @m9: I like the first one, but my personal preference is not to use cig sockets for anything remotely high power, as they often make poor contact and can get very hot, so your first link is probably the way I would recommend.

                • m9 on 04/10/2024 - 12:22

                  @MullerEnergy: Yup I agree. Second option is more for ad hoc laptop/phone charging in a blackout. That cig socket will handle that charger example fine but I get your point.

              • M00Cow on 04/10/2024 - 12:20

                @m9: Cheers. The neighbours were complaining when we had a 12-hour power outage that they had to go to work an hour away. But a LiFePO4 Battery, + PD outlet + 4g/5g modem would get them out of a pickle for well under $1k, they could easily get solar panels to charge the battery too.

                There you go @Muller Energy there's something for your workshop.

                • muzzamo on 04/10/2024 - 19:15
                  +2

                  @M00Cow: Speaking from experience in SA, after about 12 hours or so the battery backups in the phone towers run out too so you can’t use 4G/5G.

                  • M00Cow on 05/10/2024 - 08:16

                    @muzzamo: Yep, that must be frustrating. We're lucky, being on a hill there's plenty of towers to connect too.

        • 303-Acid on 04/10/2024 - 13:18
          +1

          I attach an Inverter to the battery.

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 10:15
      +1

      It's for most 12V applications.
      Generally people use them in vehicles or offgrid locations (including while camping).

    • Lead Wings on 04/10/2024 - 10:16

      I have used similar cells (302 AH) for my home battery. Need a 16 cell BMS if making a 48V (60V) system.

    • outlander on 04/10/2024 - 11:10

      Could be. I like the idea of using something like this for outdoor lighting, or opening&closing a gate . A bit oversized, maybe, but when you factor in how much it would cost to have an electrician wire in 240, it's basically the same, and then in an emergency you have the option to cannibalise it for parts.

    • gyrex on 04/10/2024 - 14:03
      +1

      I built a 60kWh home battery using EVE cells connected to a 3-phase 15kVA inverter.

      • jedimaster on 04/10/2024 - 16:05
        +1

        how much did it cost you? just the battery?

        • gyrex on 05/10/2024 - 12:28

          $7500 AUD for 64 cells to my door direct from China. Need a BMS for each 16S pack and obviously inverter/s, cables, lugs, switches, fuses etc.

          All up it was $13K for the entire build.

          • jedimaster on 05/10/2024 - 14:16

            @gyrex: so much cheaper than a 14kWh Tesla powerwall! did you put it all in a housing and all stored in garage? a photo would be nice

            • gyrex on 05/10/2024 - 16:30
              +1

              @jedimaster: I built compression packs for each battery and they're stored on a high load bearing shelving system.

              Yep, not sure how much a Powerwall is these days but the entire system probably cost less than one of them and my system is 3 phase, offers significantly more power, energy capacity, flexibility and functions with my Victron inverters. I think it's probably the equivalent of 4-5 Powerwalls in terms of energy storage.

              The best part is that it's using safe(r) chemistry (LiFePO4) - I have no idea how people are happy to chuck NMC batteries anywhere near their houses, let alone in a garage.

              • ocular on 16/11/2024 - 12:23

                @gyrex: LiFePO4 is sold as safer, but that's a lot of energy stored in the system. But interested in your fuse/breaker setup that can prevent arcing in case of a complete short.

                • gyrex on 16/11/2024 - 14:40

                  @ocular:

                  LiFePO4 is sold as safer

                  It's not "sold as safer", it is safer to the point of being almost benign. Have a look at the various destruction (physical, chemical and electrical) tests of prismatic LFP cells on youtube.

                  that's a lot of energy stored in the system

                  Potential energy stored as Wh does not dictate the severity of a destructive event. An NMC cell with virtually no stored energy will suffer the same explosive potential as a cell fully charged. The difference is how the cell is constructed in terms of being able to safely vent the gasses and the potentially volatile nature of the anode/cathodes when under duress. NMC cells tend to violently explode through thermal runaway whereas LFP cells almost always degass and naturally degrade without issue or thermal runaway.

                  fuse/breaker setup that can prevent arcing

                  The fuses exist to protect the cables from excess current and the switches are there to isolate a battery in case I want to take it offline for testing etc. I'm not sure why any short or arcing would potentially occur?

                  • ocular on 16/11/2024 - 20:42
                    +1

                    @gyrex: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/house-burned-down.83098/
                    "So, after 4 to 5 years of working flawless, the 100 kwh lifepo4 battery caught fire at night and burned our house down. Luckily our family just made in out on time."

                    In this case the consensus seems to be DC arcing across the contacts of a Victron Megafuse housing. Not sure what caused the short. I just raised the concern about the potential of arcing with DC current causing potential fires rather than the chemistry. Many of the DIY Battery projects come either without DC breakers or fuses or potentially under rated ones. I have been off grid for 20 years with initially a 50 kWh Wet Pb acid now 15 kWh LiFePO4 battery and relied upon 3 pole NH00 fuse disconnectors with sand filled DC rated fuses that isolate battery, PV and load. The sand filled DC fuses are to control DC arcing to prevent fire.

  • randomusername2017 on 04/10/2024 - 10:08
    -5

    (just 100km north of Sydney….)

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 10:18
      +4

      Depends how you look at it!
      It's 50km (as the crow flies) from the Sydney CBD, but only 15km from the very outskirts of Sydney.

      I guess we'll say compared to the size of Australia, it's very close to Sydney. 😉

      We've had two people fly up from Melbourne for the workshop and one drive up from Yass.

      • ATangk on 04/10/2024 - 11:11

        Curious how they brought it back to Melbourne given it significantly exceeds allowable limits on planes.

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 11:38
          +6

          They flew back, leaving the batteries here. We then shipped them as a Class 9 dangerous good via road/rail.

  • jastreb on 04/10/2024 - 10:45
    -1

    Do you compress the cells in your kits when building the battery?

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 10:53
      +1

      In the kits, no. We do recommend restricting them by putting them in a reasonably strong case, but in my opinion, if you have bloated cells, there's some sort of other issue at play. Either you've been discharging your cells way below what's acceptable (which a decent BMS would stop) or you have cells that weren't great to start with, or there's some other problem.
      So it's fixing the symptoms but not the cause.

      We don't compress our cells in our batteries either (though they are restricted) and we've only had one single battery with bloated cells ever, but this was because the cells were completely discharged a few times (I can't remember the reason, whether it was a faulty BMS or something else, as it's a few years ago now).

      • jastreb on 04/10/2024 - 11:09
        -1

        I am asking as EVEs specs on those batteries are based with compression as per their datasheet. Their expected cycle life goes down without compressing them.

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 11:45
          +7

          You are correct. Technically at least.
          It's similar to storing your batteries at 100% SOC. They won't do quite as many cycles as if you're storing them at 40% SOC. However when people ask me what SOC to store them at, I always tell them 100%. The reason for this is the insane amount of cycles that these batteries can do. You can get 6000+ cycles out of these. If you do everything wrong, you might still get 2000 cycles out of the battery. So for a customer that cycles the battery once a week on average, that would mean that the battery would last for 40 years (obviously I'm not saying the batteries will last 40 years, I'm just trying to make a point).

          So whether it's storage SOC or compression, I feel that in practical terms, it makes little difference to the vast majority of users. Not only that, but even then, compression is more about edge-case scenarios with high discharge rates.
          I've actually opened a BYD Atto battery and the cells in there weren't compressed. I know they're BYD not EVE, but fundamentally it's exactly the same chemistry.

          I feel it's a little bit subjective as well. There will still be people who will say you absolutely need to compress. I won't directly disagree with them, but I'll share my views as above.

          • jastreb on 04/10/2024 - 12:02
            -2

            @MullerEnergy: I was baiting you to see if you will defend your stance and say compression is a waste of time. Thank you for your honest answer. You are absolutely correct.
            ps: is there a 16s version of your balancer planned for release some time in the future?

            • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 12:20
              +2

              @jastreb: All good, thank you!

              We were thinking of running a 48V workshop, but if we do, we might restrict it to people that have some experience with batteries and/or electronics given that the level of risk is a lot higher with 48V than 12V.
              The other difficulty is weight. Depending on what capacity battery people are building, it does start to get quite heavy. 100Ah should be manageable, but 300Ah, you're looking at close to 100kg, so these would be better built in situ.

        • Martyroz on 04/10/2024 - 12:42
          -2

          just buy a whole DIY 12v kit inc box from EEL batttery.

          • wfdTamar on 16/11/2024 - 18:48
            +1

            @Martyroz: I would suggest not. I bought my Eve cells from them and one cell had a broken terminal weld. It was hell trying to get them to replace it (credit card chargeback) and the one they sent is lower spec than the rest.

            • Martyroz on 16/11/2024 - 19:10

              @wfdTamar: You could but a whole nother set and still be cheaper than the OP.

              • wfdTamar on 16/11/2024 - 19:42

                @Martyroz: Just not from EEL Battery.

                There's no doubt you can buy the bits cheaper (most likely from China), but knowing where to buy them (and being able to get a replacement for a bad cell like I got) is worth paying a bit more for - how much more is up to the individual. Finding quality cells from a decent supplier is not easy and getting warranty support from Chinese sellers is not something to be counted on.

                There's also (again, for some people), security in having someone that knows what they're doing guide them through it, but still the satisfaction of DIY.

                If you DIY alone there's also some tools and chargers required to do the job properly.

                This is just another choice part way between DIY and buying a ready made battery. It'll be a very good spec battery too.

  • rumblytangara on 04/10/2024 - 11:28

    So wish that I had a good use case for something like this - exactly like the kind of nerdtastic event that I'd love to attend but have been fine with small packs using a handful of smaller 18650 cells and Aliexpress balance charging PCBs.

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 11:47

      If that ever changes, let me know. 🙂

  • Naigrabzo on 04/10/2024 - 11:52

    Can these cases be stored in a green house safely (high humidity and -2C to 47C max) to power some green house fans or heater at night?

    thanks.

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 11:55

      Yes!

      The BMS has low (and high) temperature disconnect so it will not charge below zero, but once the temperature rises, it will.
      Discharging won't be a problem though, as it's fine to discharge up to -20C, which for Australia, thankfully isn't an issue.

  • huuuuugo on 04/10/2024 - 11:53

    This looks like a fun and informative workshop, but I can not justify buying such expensive batteries without a use case. You don't happen to offer some newbie electronics courses, do you?

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 11:58
      +7

      Sorry no. At the end of the day, while we like to do a spot of philanthropy here and there, we're still running a business.

      However, if you wanted, I'd be more than happy for you to come for an hour or so and you can give me a hand building/fixing a battery. Might be a win-win that doesn't cost anything and I get a little bit of free labour.

      • jastreb on 04/10/2024 - 12:03
        +1

        Can I put my hand up for this too? Happy to help out :)

  • rooster7777 on 04/10/2024 - 12:36
    +1

    Perhaps should be a safety warning…. playing with lithium batteries can be addictive…especially if combined with stand alone solar (regardless of whether you are also grid connected) or motorhomes/ mobile camping… especially mixed with a bit of DIY.

    Fortunately playing with LiFePO4 batteries allows you to keep the flames in your barbeque instead of your equipment… apart from incredibly rare exceptions.

    Buying quality components (particularly batteries) will save you a lot of money over time, if you get addicted to standalone solar benefits. Speaking as someone who has bought quite a number of batteries of different chemistry types over the last 14 years… most of them I'd rate as either barely adequate or less during ownership.

    While it is cheap to start with 12volts… there are drawbacks including high current demand (thus thick wiring requirements) under loads. 48 is a wonderful voltage, but be aware of the dilemmas of series connecting 12v lithium batteries, resulting in no cross battery balancing. Batteries built for the voltage you require, with internal balancing, are ideal.

    And if you like playing with stuffs… good new batteries, and dirt cheap solar panels off house roofs (when no longer required of course!), are an ideal combination.

  • FujinShu on 04/10/2024 - 12:49

    Please, I really want a workshop like this in Adelaide!

  • wfdTamar on 04/10/2024 - 12:51

    I built a battery using this BMS and 8 cells (bought from China) to use in my motorhome. The BMS is really good and will do 250 Amps (if for some reason you want that much). It should in theory be able to run anything you can plug into a standard power point (via a 3000 watt inverter). Finding an inverter that can reliably do that is another issue.

    Yes you could do this cheaper by doing what I did (buy cells from China), but there are drawbacks. A terminal on one of my cells had a broken weld and it was a hell of a job (involving a credit card chargeback - and I still don't know the outcome of that) to get them to send a replacement cell and that one is not as good as the others (294Ah vs 310-313Ah). So I'm faced with using a dodgy cell either way - bad terminal, or lower capacity.

    If you want a battery as good as any ready made you could buy with a great spec and you don't quite trust that you can DIY - this workshop would be a great way to do it.

    When comparing the cost there are the cells, the BMS and not insignificant - the wiring for it and the crimping tools. If you want to do a really good job, there are a few specialist chargers and testers that most people would not have.

    • team teri on 04/10/2024 - 13:21

      What company did you buy from? The warranty trouble doesn't sound good. Feel free to PM if you don't want to name them in public.

      • wfdTamar on 04/10/2024 - 13:32
        +1

        EEL Battery. Avoid. I'm not the only one that's had trouble from them. The problem is buying from China the only way to claim a warranty issue is to send the cells back, which being lithium as well as Aus to China is not feasible. It's only if you happen to strike a good rep at your credit card company you have a chance of some comeback, but most would want you to send them back too.

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 13:40
          +1

          There's a blog for that! ;)

          https://mullerenergy.com.au/how-to-source-quality-lithium-ce…

          @team teri

        • wfdTamar on 04/10/2024 - 14:12
          +1

          If that one cell had been the same as the other 7, I'd have been very happy, but it's not the 90+% of good sales, but the small percent of ones that have issues and, more importantly, how the company handles them, that is the measure of the company. That's where buying from China is risky, because for them to fix problems is expensive so they are hesitant to do it. Some haven't realised that once word gets around that they don't stand by their products, their whole market can dry up. Of course then they just rebirth the company.

        • rookie317 on 04/10/2024 - 15:35

          Exactly, if you buy cells from an Aus reseller, at least there's some peace of mind.

          • team teri on 04/10/2024 - 19:02

            @rookie317: Or you could buy a few spare cells when ordering from China and still save a lot. Most local stock is close to double the price ex China unfortunately.

          • wfdTamar on 16/11/2024 - 18:51

            @rookie317: I did have an almost as difficult job getting a refund from a Brisbane ebay seller. He sold 280Ah cells as 304Ah (and still is).

  • irmalik on 04/10/2024 - 14:33
    +1

    Excellent idea, wish similar in Vic.

    • jedimaster on 04/10/2024 - 16:19

      yes, open a branch in VIC and I promise to attend

  • rookie317 on 04/10/2024 - 15:40

    Is there any chance a 24V/48V kit course will be offered in the future?

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 16:16
      +1

      If the date suits you and you want to build a 24V battery, you'd be welcome to attend. I'd just have to prioritise the 12V batteries, so it might take you a little bit longer to finish than them.

      • rookie317 on 04/10/2024 - 16:35
        +1

        Thank you for accommodating. I just want to clarify, will the kit components be different given it's a 12v BMS?

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 17:11
          +1

          Yes, it depends on what you're after. We've got a 200A BMS for 8s and we've got our own new BMS (not yet on the website) that's 300A (but we'll advertise it as a 250A BMS), so it depends on what loads you'd be running. We could also do 105Ah cells or 314Ah cells, obviously you'd need 8 instead of 4. So if you can let me know your preferences, I can let you know the price.

          • rookie317 on 04/10/2024 - 17:25

            @MullerEnergy: I intend to off-grid my pool pump/heater which can pull at most 6KW, most of the more economical off-grid inverters are 48V so I was hoping that's an option.

            • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 04/10/2024 - 17:42

              @rookie317: Maybe send me a message at [email protected] and we can take this offline, because I feel like there might be a bit of discussion needed.

    • ylukman on 05/10/2024 - 15:19

      Interested for the 24V as well for my ebike

  • RangaWal on 04/10/2024 - 16:38

    What case/enclosure to use for these?

  • BargainBadger on 04/10/2024 - 19:19
    +1

    @MullerEnergy Any chance of live streaming this so those of us not nearby can join in? :-)

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 05/10/2024 - 09:34
      -1

      Sorry, but I don't think it lends itself to this, as while I do have a bit of an introduction, I'm by no means the star of the show and the interesting part will actually be the building of batteries, which I won't be doing.
      Plus, I'm not sure all attendees would feel comfortable with this.

      So unfortunately, I'll have to decline this request.

      However, if you're interested in how to do it, please have a look at this video. It shows you our BMS at first and then goes into building a battery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rY0n1w4X9s&t=2s&ab_channel=…

  • dogboy88k on 05/10/2024 - 12:29

    I just bought a Starlink standard kit. Still unopened.
    It needs 240v.
    I could use this with an inverter to run off grid ?

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 05/10/2024 - 13:00

      Yes, that's definitely possible, but I believe there are DC solutions as well, which means less heat and fewer losses.
      But both batteries are capable of running a Starlink in either AC or DC configuration.

      • dogboy88k on 09/10/2024 - 10:55

        Ok. I’m in. See you on the 17th November !

  • cfuse on 05/10/2024 - 16:22

    I can't do this right now but I'm definitely down for the next time it comes around.

  • wfdTamar on 16/11/2024 - 18:55

    One of the benefits of doing this is you'll be able to use all their tools, not an insignificant expense if you have to buy them all just to build one battery. Also the wiring, terminals etc.

  • vongole83 on 18/11/2024 - 12:10

    Would love it if you guys found a way to offer this in VIC at some point.

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