Hi all, looking to buying a new car
A few shortlisted include the Palisade and Santa Fe
Unfortunately, many in this class only come in AWD in the diesel variant, and some don’t come in petrol at all. As we generally drive short distances (i.e. 20 minutes to work everyday plus maybe a slightly longer drive on weekends), the concern is the short trips on the diesel engine
Have modern diesels become more adapt to shorter trips over long periods of time?
Driving to and from work in a Hyundai doesn't require AWD.
What OP plans to do on the weekend with AWD was more of my interest in asking the question.
If they are just going to visit granny 6 suburbs over then AWD is probably not a must have, therefore diesel issues won't exist.
@CurlCurl: I'm not upset at all. Was just curious. Just trying to help op in their decision making. I'm not aware of their level of drivetrain knowledge so asked questions.
Sorry to upset you, but I have a 7 seater Outlande, and 95% of the time there is just me in it.
So you're hauling around a bunch of metal (more than if you drove a passenger vehicle) just to move yourself around? You're using more fuel than if you drove a passenger vehicle which is bad for your wallet, you're adding more road damage than if you drove a passenger vehicle which is bad for other drivers and you're adding more emissions compared to if you drove a passenger vehicle which is bad for the overall environment.
You criticise the Corolla for being a "boring" drive yet you'd objectively have more fun driving around an MX-5 instead of an Outlander if all you're doing is transporting yourself.
Yep. Have you ever thought there maybe a reason I own it? Nah, of course you haven't. Thinking is not one of your specialities.
I definitely can tell by your replies that I think more than you do. I would say I actually think more than most people.
I am? Again you have no idea. I'm using a lot less fuel BTW, it's my wallet.
You're definitely using more fuel than if you drove a passenger vehicle.
Nope. The Outlander is 1,000kg less than my previous vehicle so I'm causing less damage.
I said compared to a passenger vehicle, I didn't say compared to your previous vehicle so way to twist my words.
Nope. I'm using a lot less fuel (petrol) than my previous vehicle (diesel) which is good for the environment.
Again, you don't seem to get the point.
Nah. I would get gravel rash on my ass sitting that close to ground.
Ah so the reason you drive an Outlander like most people who drive taller cars is to inflate your sense of superiority, gotcha.
Driving to and from work in a Hyundai doesn't require AWD
So driving where to where do we need AWD?
@boomramada: I'm struggling to think of a scenario for a Hyundai. Traction and stability control and driving to the conditions is perfectly adequate for most situations.
So driving where to where do we need AWD?
Pretty much nowhere in Aus, unless you live above the receeding snow line.
AWD can provide more traction, but most AWD systems are 'on demand' and only activate in AWD mode if the road is wet and youre being a clown with the go pedal.
@Euphemistic: Subaru, hiiiiiii
And safe in wet conditions.
All I see is one hate SUV/AWD and other hate Toyota Camry lol.
Then again Camry drivers don't need AWD even in wet or snow conditions as they drivers like a grand pa 😉
AWD safer in the wet imo
@ddilrat: Its safer on accelerating. Doesnt do much the rest of the time. However, if you are driving hard enough that AWD kicks in in a part time system, you arent driving to the conditions.
That's a fair call but it's actually not a bad extra layer of assurance when road conditions aren't normal - i.e. very slippery from heavy rains/cold/etc. You'd probably be ok with a FWD but RWD you can certainly experience the unexpected slipping. If you're taking the kids up a mountain to the snow, even when chains aren't required and you've got a lot of rain/mud on the road as you're climbing up, it makes a world of difference.
It's certainly not critical to have by any stretch of the imagination, but it is a nice to have in the odd 1% of scenarios when the need arises. Most AWDs aren't really off-roaders, so I think that's probably the only scenario it would helpful.
Not everyone wants to be a bloody sheep and drive a boring white Corolla that you can't find in a carpark
Apparently these days everyone wants to be a bloody sheep and drive a boring SUV that you can't find in a carpark because it looks like all the other boring SUVs. And no-one except companies buys a white Corolla.
@CurlCurl: Im glad that i had enough negs to work my way through all of these awful and pointless replies of yours.
It was a fair question to ask.
Your replies are just pointless ramblings that contributed nothing to the discussion.
buys a white Corolla
If you want to blend in
Not everyone wants to be a bloody sheep and drive a boring white Corolla that you can't find in a carpark.
Most people wouldn't know what wheels are being driven on their car.
Not everyone wants to be a bloody sheep and drive a boring white Corolla that you can't find in a carpark.
SUV's are the boring sheep vehicle.
Not everyone wants to be a bloody sheep and drive a boring white Corolla that you can't find in a carpark.
LOL.
'cause SUV, pickup truck or a 4X4 are sooooooo unique and special … NOT!
I thought sheep drive SUVs 😊
I thought sheep drive SUVs
Nah. The drive boring white Corollas, with a tissue box on the rear shelf.
@CurlCurl: Bro said he doesn't want a boring car but has an outlander. I'm sure there are more boring cars, but an outlander would be near the bottom of the exciting list for sure.
30 minutes??? More like 10 minutes.
you need to get the DPF to do a burn-off every 1-2k km - 20-30km highway run at a constant speed.
how often should this be done?
also, what if this is not done over a period of 3-4 weeks, before a 20-30km drive?
I ask because I have a diesel car myself, and when I need to work-from-home, I don't drive the car as much,
but then, after a few weeks, I will make the occasional drive about 20-30km only.
Are you fixed on a diesel?
you need to get the DPF to do a burn-off every 1-2k km - 20-30km highway run at a constant speed.
DPF's have come a long way since they hit Australia in 2007. Some manufactures now have programmed burns every 600kms.
It isn't necessary to do a 20 - 30km highway run. What is important is not to stop the vehicle while it's doing a burn.
One disadvantage of having a diesel is, you MUST use low ash oil, and that is not cheap.
I don't know the engine size in the Palisade and Santa Fe, but diesels always take more oil than petrol engines. My 3.2 litre Pajero took 9.2 litres an oil change. My 2.4 litre petrol Outlander takes 4.2 litres of oil.
Does this matter if OP gets capped price servicing?
How do you know if the vehicle is going a burn?
If you're set on an AWD, Subaru may be your answer.
If your set on an AWD, Subaru may be your answer.
Does a Subaru seat 8?
Does the op need to seat 8?
Don't ask the OP because someone will be sad.
@CurlCurl: If OP didn't want other people's opinions, I doubt they would have created this topic?
Maybe you are an ALT of OP, which makes the OP's username fitting.
How do you know OP is a he?
If OP didn't want other people's opinions, I doubt they would have created this topic?
This is the question asked by the OP the concern is the short trips on the diesel engine
Have modern diesels become more adapt to shorter trips over long periods of time?
He/she/them where not asking about which car to buy.
BTW. Maybe you should have concentrated on the OP's question
@CurlCurl: Sounds like someone should have taken their own advice grumpybum.
If I wanted to concentrate on the OP's question, I would have replied to the OP's post and not to yours.
Does a Subaru seat 8?
O.P. didn't mention seating for 8, O.P. did state they wanted AWD.
It's his money, his decision and not some random on a message board.
O.P. posted a question. We randoms on a message board responded to post. Why you so salty?
O.P. posted a question. We randoms on a message board responded to post. Why you so salty?
Because the majority here come in with why do you need XZY. Why don't you get a Corolla .Why do you need AWD. Why do you need a ute .
It's no ones business what the OP buys. OP wanted to know about DPF's. Not why he/she/whatever wanted to buy a diesel Palisades.
For gods sake, someone here has posted he/she.whatever should buy an electric vehicle.
it's no ones business what the OP buys. OP wanted to know about DPF's. Not why he/she/whatever wanted to buy a diesel Palisades.
While thats true, quite often the post starts out with a premise where the OP has not considered any other options. We ask the questions to help them make up their own mind. Ultimately its on them to waste their own money as they see fit, but maybe they hadnt considered x or y.
For gods sake, someone here has posted he/she.whatever should buy an electric vehicle
If youre only doing short trips in the city why would you not consider an EV? Its perfect use case.
Because the majority here come in with why do you need XZY. Why don't you get a Corolla .Why do you need AWD.
Checking the first page the only people mentioning Coralla are people replying to your sulky first post.
You do understand when someone posts a question about what they should get, that's an invitation for people to respond and ask further questions to clarify requirements? Why are you posting in the forums if you think eliciting feedback is a waste of time?
@DashCam AKA Rolts: Someone got the cold shoulder this morning and venting their built up frustration on this thread. It's perfectly understandable.
Subaru don't make diesels any more. The ones they did sell weren't well regarded. Good economy but notorious for dpf issues.
Subaru was suggested for AWD, not for diesel.
I am a huge fan of diesel powered cars. I have owned many from a couple of Ford Mondeo's through to a Prado at the other end of the spectrum. Manufacturers may have found some ways to manage the problem of the DPF clogging without extended driving every so often, but I would hesitate to buy a diesel with a DPF if your driving doesn't include a longer drive every few weeks.
The other issue with a diesel engine is that they take a long time to warm up to operating temperature. Multiple short trips without the engine warming up is not good for it. For example, on my Ford 2L diesel the coolant temp needle has barely moved even after driving 5-6km from home on a cold start. On a similar trip, my parents trusty old Mazda6 2.5L petrol is showing full operating temperature by this time. It was even more pronounced when I had the Prado with the old 3L diesel vs the same Mazda6.
Between this and the DPF issue, it sounds as if your driving habits may not suit a diesel powered vehicle. I would stay away if I could. They work for me as I do long drives on remote roads regularly but city dwellers are best to stick to other forms of fuel.
As mentioned, do you really need AWD? In Australia, AWD is more of a marketing thing to get more money out of you. Yes if you are driving on snow/sleet/slick/very slippery surfaces you probably need it. But in Australia it isn't needed 90% of the time. Even when driving on gravel roads in the bush for work, I rarely engage 4wd in the dry as it just isn't needed. You are better off spending your money on good tyres and chucking the usually rubbish OEM tyres away. Just my 2 cents.
My Pajero lived in 4H. The traction was always there if needed.
That's the benefit of the Mitsubishi Super Select. You can run in 4H even on sealed surface. Most 4WD systems can't do that and you need to remember to switch it back to 2H.
Prado the same
@CurlCurl: Did it? All the 150 series are like that and they came out in 2009.
Pajeros we're doing that in 1989????
Did it? All the 150 series are like that and they came out in 2009.
Pajeros we're doing that in 1989????
The Prado is constant (full time) AWD. Totally different system. They don't have 2WD.
The Pajero is 2WD, AWD 4H, 4HLc and 4LLc.
The Pajero has a viscous coupler and a diff in the transfer case.
In the Super Select 2 system (as fitted to Gen 3 and Gen 4 Paj), the centre diff is a planetary gear differential. These devices are able to split torque in unequal proportions to their output shafts, depending on their geometry. The diff used in the Super Select 2 transfer box directs 67% of the drive torque to the rear axle and 33% of the torque to the front axle, when unlocked and with equal grip available at each end. This generates a slight rear-wheel-drive handling balance and helps to fight understeer on the limit. When this diff is locked mechanically and both ends have equal grip, the torque split will be 50/50, but if the grip is not equal, 100% of the torque can be transmitted via either end.
my pajero and subaru live in awd everyday. handy for when i need to dash off at the lights and im up a hill
I am a huge fan of diesel powered cars
same.
After driving a diesel, I intended never going back to petrol again.
But I was disappointed by the choice of diesel PHEVs. It would be perfect using battery around town then diesel on highways.
Have to disagree there. The good thing about diesel is low down torque. Adding an electric motor to a petrol drivetrain means you can get that low down torque from the battery but have a lighter ICE that is easier to keep emissions low. No DPF. No ad blue.
The battery doesn't last long on a road trip. I don't get far before I'm missing my diesel.
@SlickMick: Properly programmed, the battery will still charge whole cruising the highway, then kick in when its needed for hills and stuff.
@Euphemistic: Yeah dunno. Our settings ask what level we want the battery to charge to whilst cruising on petrol, I said 100% please. What a joke, it's never gotten to 1%.
Maybe it's by driving style, but the battery gets consumed real quick, and never recharges much at all (or it's being consumed faster than it's being recharged).
It's my first PHEV, so have no idea whether this is a problem or all I can expect from it.
No idea if it's true or not, but I've heard a potential benefit of EGR recirculation systems is they heat up the engine quicker.
Yes modern diesels have come a long way.
They warm up quicker than old diesels. Even diesels than 10 years ago they are way ahead.
20 mins to work is plenty of time for a modern diesel to warm up to optimum running temp.
Within 5 minutes your pretty close to working temp.
As for DPF concerns, if you have any, there are specific ways to know if your car is doing a DPF burn.
A slightly longer drive on weekends is when you can make sure your car is doing a DPF burn.
A dealer can do a DPF burn if needed anyway when you have it serviced.
All in all if your looking at buying new your covered by new car warranty anyway.
All in all if your looking at buying new your covered by new car warranty anyway.
True but you are giving the dealer an out if you don't follow the recommended procedures.
Within 5 minutes your pretty close to working temp.
I haven't driven a Kia/Hyundai diesel but have in many other brands and this has not been my experience.
The recommended procedures are not onerous for sure.
All car manufactures know the bulk majority of their cars sold do short trips in the city.
The long km trips are the exception rather than the rule.
As for temp I guess it depends upon the load on the engine.
Remember too that the engine temp gauge is not linear. It can quickly go from cold to hot
I monitor the engine temp of my vehicle with an OBD2 gauge. I see it get up to temp linearly.
The diesel you may drive may take longer depending on the load.
The diesel I drive is heavy and warms quickly.
Your Mondeo is 1/2 ton lighter than, possibly the OP’s Hyuindai Palisade, and most likely will take longer to warm up.
I've driven more than the Mondeo. And they have all been similar with the Mondeo being the quickest to warm up. Last one was a work supplied Next Gen Everest BiTurbo. The warm up cycle will generally be longer the higher the engine capacity. Sure, thrashing any vehicle when cold will warm it up quicker but isn't necessarily good for the motor. Glad you haven't had any issues with the diesel motors, neither have I and I love them. But they aren't for everyone and do require a specific form of care and maintenance that not everyone is capable of/used to.
In the end, the OP has to decide if they want that and I am simply making sure they are aware so they can make an educated decision.
There are also degrees of DFP issues based on the car and engine design, distance from engine to DFP etc
The current Hyundai/Kia diesel isn't known for having common DFP issues
Get a petrol hybrid instead. Diesel is dead except for long distance or tow duties.
There is a huge price diff between Kia’s diesel and hybrid models. Actually maybe not as bad as I thought.
My 2014 diesel outlander is currently at mechanics getting unclogged from particle build up.
Yes, i would take it on regular long drives - it died when i was going through port macquarie to bris from melbourne.
Other than that, it has been relatively faultless (only issue was a cracked turbo inlet pipe)
My 2014 diesel outlander is currently at mechanics getting unclogged from particle build up.
The DPF system has improved dramatically in the last 10 years. Mitsubishi in the Gen 4 Pajero and the Pajero Sport are programmed to do a burn every 600klm.
I can speak on the 2014 diesel Outlander.
The company with the biggest DPF problem was TOYOTA
my 2017 pajero burns every 140 to 220km in the city.
my 2017 pajero burns every 140 to 220km in the city.
I would get that looked at as the 2017 Pajero has a passive DPF.
nope. they brought them back for my17
Your Pajero has a passive DPF.
The 4-1 NS was the first with a DPF. It was an open DPF and was a disaster. Early models of the gen 2 NT had a DPF, but Mitsubishi dropped it sometime in 2009 for some reason.It was reintroduced in late 2017 in the gen 3 NW and continued into the gen 4 NX.
The early NW didn't have a DPF
@CurlCurl: ok
NW is gen4
gen 3 ended yonks ago
my17 nx
its not passive. the car actively initiates a regen. as is noted by obd port scanning and by seeing the idle revs higher and by smelling and feeling the heat of the dpf outside the car - even though i literally just did a school run.
maybe you mean passive in that a button is not provided to start it. but the ecu chooses when it starts..so,. its automatic, not passive
@FoxJump: The Gen 4 pajeros hit the showrooms in late 2006. The NS was gen 4.1. the NT was 4.2. NW 4.3 and NX 4.4.
A passive DPF automatically activates when the exhaust temp is high and does not inject more fuel.
An open/active DPF is activated by the ECU and changes injector timing to inject more fuel to increase the DPF temp to over 600C when the soot and pressure build up in the DPF to burn off the particulates.
No manufacture uses an open/active DPF now to my knowledge.
@CurlCurl: I dislike the active regen system, I find it annoying that sometimes a DPF burn starts even after a long drive and I am forced to finish it lol. I just slap it into manual mode or w/e then keep it above 2k rpm on main roads, highway is faster but both does the trick.
Usually you can hear the engine noise get louder, higher idle RPM and sometimes a flashing DPF light.
I think they moved on, passive system works better but still wouldn't get it for short trips as you prob won't get to operating temps from 5 minute drives here and there.
If I were to buy another car defs not a diesel, torque is nice though.
it's probably due a clean anyway (I'm assuming higher kays being a 2014). Although being a 2014 I would have gone a new unit changeover, not a clean. The price wouldn't be much different IME.
As long as you install an oil & air separator, it will help prevent this problem down the line. You still need a decent highway trip once per tank of fuel in order to keep it happy. I'd install a provent 150 in your one, as I had to make a few mods in order to fit my Ryco rcc360, so I'd recommend the smaller provent 150 instead. Keep a few filters handy and change it out every 2nd service.
Other than this, use low saps/ash oil. So acea C4 or swap over to acea e9/e11 low saps.
As long as you install an oil & air separator, it will help prevent this problem down the line.
The above has nothing to do with a DPF. A DPF catches particulate matter. It has pressure sensors attached to it. When the pressure rises in the DPF caused by the filter clogging the sensors activate the DPF burn by putting extra fuel into the system to generate heat for the DPF to burn of the particulates at 600C.
As for cleaning a DPF. The proprietary cleaners from auto stores are totally useless, and the so called commercial type are also useless.
As you stated, using quality low saps/ash oil is a must.
An oil separator is used to help prevent the oil mist that returns to the system via the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) from clogging the manifold.
I don't how old you Ryco unit is, but Ryco had drama with earlier models as the pressure relief valves weren't functioning correctly. I agree that Provent is the brant to purchase.
I've only been doing this for a very long time, but okay.
Diesels run a lot of EGR (above 50% minimum at idle is normal), besides crankcase venting. EGR command rates are off the charts at part throttle, unless high speed running on the motorway. Most vehicles are not doing this regularly.
This is what is mostly clogging up the DPF, believe me.
Filters above 40µm (micrometers) are useless, like the brass filter ones. 10µm is okay, less than 5µm is better. Very good ones made by reputable companies use 1µm filters.
EDIT: fixed my stuff-up using nm instead of microns.
A fully electric car might be a better option if you are not thinking about it being 7 seater.
Get a RWD petrol car.
In your use case, I wouldn't recommend a diesel, simple as that.
Down the line they are a wallet burner like you wouldn't believe, not unless you're handy home mechanic, anyway.
I was sitting at Mazda only a few weeks ago getting a service and a guy who drove his diesel in a similar way was up for $2k bill (obviously cheaper at another mechanic but will still be a big bill) for not clearing the buildup regularly.
Unless you’re highway driving at least once a week you either risk an issue or have to plan for a highway cruise, which is unsustainable.
I was sitting at Mazda only a few weeks ago getting a service and a guy who drove his diesel in a similar way was up for $2k bill (obviously cheaper at another mechanic but will still be a big bill) for not clearing the buildup regularly.
That has to do with the owner not doing as required. Also, was he using low saps/ash oil. The DPF cannot be cleaned. To service a blocked DPF the dealer does a forced burn. It may take many hours, depending how bad it is. An oil and flter change is also required after.
Unless you’re highway driving at least once a week you either risk an issue or have to plan for a highway cruise, which is unsustainable.
Untrue.
It's not the motor that has issues it's the emissions filter that has caused all the modern problems.
You still need to perform regular highway speeds drives for a good 30 minutes.
Why do you need AWD?