What Is a Reasonable Amount of Notice for Employer to Give for Forced Christmas Leave?

CaptainJack on 20/08/2024 - 11:22
Last edited 20/08/2024 - 20:52 by 2 other users

I work at a small consulting shop. I'm the only full time employee, so the company doesn't have particularly well documented employee policies and I don't have colleagues - so seeking some opinions.

In previous years, I've been forced to take two weeks annual leave over Christmas/New Years. Not ideal for all the usual reasons (partner's work is very busy, I have no kids, things are busy and expensive). But I understand a Christmas shutdown is not uncommon, so I can begrudgingly accept it.

My issue is the company likes to have their cake and eat it too. If things get busy they'll instead ask me to work, and I've also worked some of the public holidays to help out (which I don't mind). Therefore I don't get much notice about what is going to happen. Last year I decided to hope I could work through, but that wasn't to be, and finding out I had three weeks to try and find flights/hotels for the busiest period of the year was a big sore point (the 'it's your problem' attitude didn't help).

My contract is silent on all of this, it only requires that I give them at least four weeks notice of any leave (which I find they don't care about as they can always reject a leave request if it doesn't suit).

Questions:

  • Would it be reasonable to ask them to commit to dates for mandated Christmas leave now (August)? That probably eliminates any chance of working through, but at least I have the dates in hand and can make the most of it.
  • Should I just suck it up?
  • How much notice do others in mid to large corporates get for forced leave?
Education & Work Leave

Comments

  • Fredfloresjr on 20/08/2024 - 11:26
    +3

    When I used to work in Public Hospital, ALL staff aside from the Manager are all forced to go on leave randomly. Even Union can't do anything. So yeah, suck it up or find a new place.

    • morse on 21/08/2024 - 04:04

      Most public hospitals allow staff to be redeployed to other areas if their service shuts for Christmas and they still want to work. Even in admin streams. Eg an admin officer in a community health service might cover for a ward clerk who wants to take leave. I’ve been in public health services for 20years across 3 states and this has always been available. Not necessarily encouraged by managers, but there as an option. That’s a shame your hospital didn’t do that. Most hospitals are slammed with increased demand and less staff over christmas, unless it’s all elective surgery or something.

    • HeWhoKnows on 21/08/2024 - 19:45
      -4

      Agreed 100%

      OP needs to understand the importance of flexibility when it comes to such sitruation
      Especially with a small organisation

      There is no point in having OP come into the office over Christmas if there is no work to be done.
      OP needs to look at things from the employer's point of view and even place themselves in their postion.

      There are many places that do close over Christmas or run on skeleton staff.
      So what OP is complaining about is taken as a given in many "office and factory jobs"

      So OP, maybe take a more responsible approach and be thankful for the job you have.
      Aftrer all, you are lucky enough to be the only full time employee so STOP COMPLAINING.

      If you want to work over Christmas then get a job in RETAIL!
      But you won't have a well paid, cushy 9-5 office job where you can stop and have a coffee or make a phone call to the wife or a friend whenever you like.
      You wont have stable full time employment either.

      All I can suggest is to ask for as much forward notice as possible so you can plan.
      But if an urgent job comes in then it must be done ASAP.

  • Seraphin7 on 20/08/2024 - 11:27
    +10

    I'm not sure what goal you're trying to serve here?

    If you want to be "guaranteed" the leave period, just put in your notice for leave now and be done with it (notwithstanding what they do about not approving/cancelling).

    But you seem to want to leave open the possibility of working because that would actually be your preference?

    • CaptainJack on 20/08/2024 - 11:46

      If I need to take leave, I want to know what dates I need to take early enough to organise something, taking into account its the busiest time of the year. There was one year where I did end up putting in a request for two weeks leave. They approved it but (later) also told me the mandated leave would start a week earlier than what I'd already booked off. Obviously I would've booked flights for different dates if I'd known that.

      • Archi on 20/08/2024 - 13:04
        +5

        if your company is closed for 2 weeks over Christmas i guarantee it will be the last week of December and first week of January.

        • entropysbane on 20/08/2024 - 15:12

          Well, meat works shut down mid December. But they don’t open until late January either.
          I guess I’m saying don’t presume.
          However, I agree that most workplaces it will be between Christmas and new year and the beginning of a quiet January.

      • entropysbane on 20/08/2024 - 15:14
        -5

        You know, I think it might be worthwhile to, oh I don’t know, TALK TO YOUR BOSS?

        • CaptainJack on 20/08/2024 - 15:58
          +6

          It might be worthwhile to read my post before making braindead comments.

      • HeWhoKnows on 21/08/2024 - 19:56
        -4

        OP

        You need to GET REAL.

        You work for a SMALL consulting firm.
        You are the only full time employee.

        You need to understand the importance of flexibility in a small organisation.

        Im sure your employer looks after you very well, otherwise you wouldn't be there…right?
        But you make no mention of this.

        You should always provide a "balanced story".
        Tell us about the good and the bad.
        Unfortunately your complaint appears to be VERY BIASED/ONE SIDED and shows you are somewhat irresponsible in your demands and expections.

        If you dont like the expectations and responsibilites placed upon you, then go work for a large organisation that has the capacity for a lot more flexibility. But also a lot more politics, rules, regulations and contractual obligations.

  • Hybroid on 20/08/2024 - 11:28

    For larger companies you know at the beginning of the year that the last 2-3 weeks of December and first week January are mandated company shutdown and expected to take it as leave. There will be always be exceptions for critical work or alignment with client's needs. No one is ever forced to work over Christmas break but offered the option if they want to.

    In your case, at least a month's notice should be reasonable best practise. Alternatively, as you say, just apply for 2-3 weeks off now and stand firm that you're on leave from 16th December returning 6th January (or whatever dates you want). That's it.

    Also, you don't have to fly out somewhere over the break. Plenty people stay home and decompress, visit family/friends and get stuff done they've been putting off (DIY etc) so that's likely why you got that response.

  • freefall101 on 20/08/2024 - 11:40
    +9

    When they ask you to come into work when you have leave/public holidays, have you tried saying "no"?

    It sounds like you want your cake and to eat it too, you want to work if it's available but you also want several months heads up if the work won't be available.

    • CaptainJack on 20/08/2024 - 11:52
      +1

      Yeah I can see it comes off a bit like that. I honestly don't mind working public holidays if its what needs to happen to get a job done.

      I guess I feel that it's my leave, and if they are forcing me to take it, I feel 3 weeks notice at the busiest time off the year is a bit stiff. But I don't know what is reasonable or what happens in companies with more structure around these things.

      • freefall101 on 20/08/2024 - 11:58
        +1

        Yeah, 3 weeks notice isn't enough, I worked at a medium sized company and we generally had a couple of months.

        I missed the bit where you said they reject your leave though, if they approve it and you book holidays then it's a them problem if they want to reverse that.

        If you're their only permanent employee though, it's something to talk to them one on one with. If you don't have that kind of relationship when it sounds you're so critical to their business, something definitely isn't working out if you're that unaligned with what's going on in the business and the needs, if it was my business you'd have all the knowledge on upcoming work and projects anyway to help make that decision.

  • star-ggg on 20/08/2024 - 11:43
    +8

    (which I find they don't care about as they can always reject a leave request if it doesn't suit).

    They can't refuse a leave request without a reasonable reason. "Oh we can't approve it now because we don't know if we will have work in 6 months time" is not reasonable because they know you will be unavailable and it's up to them if they do take on new work to find staff to fill in.

  • mskeggs on 20/08/2024 - 11:53
    +7

    I'm not sure why wanting to know ahead of time if you will be required to take leave is "wanting your cake and eat it too".
    It sounds like op would prefer to work, but if they are forced to take leave, they would like good notice.

    Maybe a 3rd option? Seek a 4 week holiday in February or whenever your preference is. Then it is up to your employer to decide if they need you over Xmas or not, and it will focus them on the issue.

  • Xyzzy on 20/08/2024 - 12:03

    Would it be reasonable to ask them to commit to dates for mandated Xmas leave now (August)?

    Sure, you should be able to ask. You should also be able to ask to work through, failure to communicate never helps.

    How much notice do others in mid to large corporates get for forced leave?

    It's often in the enterprise agreement/contract, if so you know from day 1. But you'd normally know at least 3 months out. Mid-to-large corporations can't just shutdown for a week at short notice even if they wanted to.

  • seanfoite on 20/08/2024 - 12:40
    +1

    This link would seem to indicate that they have to give you 28 days notice if your on a award. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/newsroom/news/new-shutdown-rules…

  • fantombloo on 20/08/2024 - 13:08
    +1

    Maybe a bit left field. In a small shop I expect you and the employer know each other well. If you consider them reasonable I'd be frank with them and let them know your issue. If they see the value you bring they shouldn't immediately be opposed to flexibilities not available in a large corp. - these should go both ways. For example, let them know about the flight / travel issues with extra / less time and last minute adjustments, and see if they are open to accepting the risk, i.e. they front up $ for any changes, or honour extra leave request at the same short notice.

  • Loot N Plunder on 20/08/2024 - 13:30
    +1
    • Should I just suck it up?

    Listen here Mat you need to put yourself before any job/boss otherwise you will be continuously walked on
    Stand your ground do you think they give a sh!t about you well they don't
    You will be the first to go and the last to be paid if any company goes belly up there is no such thing as loyalty this isn't 1950

  • ForkSnorter on 20/08/2024 - 14:17

    20 minutes

  • JimmyF on 20/08/2024 - 14:59
    +1

    In previous years, I've been forced to take two weeks annual leave over Christmas/New Years. Not ideal for all the usual reasons (partner's work is very busy, I have no kids, things are busy and expensive). But I understand a Christmas shutdown is not uncommon, so I can begrudgingly accept it.

    Correct, very common for most businesses to shutdown between Christmas and the New Year.

    My issue is the company likes to have their cake and eat it too. If things get busy they'll instead ask me to work and and I've also worked some of the public holidays to help out (which I don't mind). Therefore I don't get much notice about what is going to happen. Last year I decided to hope I could work through, but that wasn't to be, and finding out I had three weeks to try and find flights/hotels for the busiest period of the year was a big sore point (the 'its your problem' attitude didn't help).

    You seem to be making this harder than it is. Want to go away, book flights and the holiday. If asked to work at the last minute, say sorry, got a holiday booked as you had scheduled forced leave for everyone.

    Would it be reasonable to ask them to commit to dates for mandated Xmas leave now (August)? That probably eliminates any chance of working through, but at least I have the dates in hand and can make the most of it.

    If you want leave, then put in a leave request, if you want to work, leave it open and see.

    My contract is silent on all of this, it only requires that I give them at least four weeks notice of any leave (which I find they don't care about as they can always reject a leave request if it doesn't suit).

    That is quiting, not taking holiday/leave.

    • CaptainJack on 20/08/2024 - 15:43
      -4

      Bro… congrats on misunderstanding literally everything. I'm impressed.

      I have answers from people with basic reading comprehension so don't waste your time further.

  • apple2016 on 20/08/2024 - 16:13
    -1

    I've been forced to take two weeks annual leave over Christmas/New Years.

    The company cannot force you to take leave if you do not have enough leave balance. So maybe plan ahead and take all leaves before hand.

    • JimmyF on 20/08/2024 - 18:52

      Oh they can, you either use your sick leave or have leave without pay during these 'shutdown' periods.

      It is common for contracts to be on leave without pay during this period.

  • InfiniteRegression on 20/08/2024 - 20:35

    Based on what you do and the industry you work in, you can find that information in your modern award. For example in the clerks private sector award there is a section relating to "direction to take annual leave during shutdown" - (b) The employer must give the affected employees 28 days’ written notice of a temporary shutdown period, or any shorter period agreed between the employer and the majority of relevant employees.

    Find your award, check to see if it has a section like the above - this should be able to inform you of your employer's obligations / your entitlements.

    • CaptainJack on 20/08/2024 - 20:37

      Thank you, that's very helpful

  • Cherry12 on 21/08/2024 - 01:19

    They should give you more notice than that. People should be able to plan holidays, specially if they are overseas.

    I guess since your company is small they don't really plan ahead.

    My company gives us a calendar with the official closing times 5 months ahead.

  • morse on 21/08/2024 - 04:15
    +1

    If it was me I’d have a conversation with my line manager. If you’re clear of what your preference is communicate this. Eg

    “My preference is to work through, do you think that would be any option this year?”

    If they say they don’t know, ask, “when do you think we’ll know, I’d like to be able to plan my time off if there is a shut down period”

    If your employer can’t be reasonable on this, consider what else is keeping you there, do you like the work, is it good pay? If those are enough, it might be worth sucking up the poor communication around Christmas. If not and it is frustrating maybe start looking for another job. This obviously depends how attractive you are as an employee. If your skills are in demand, employers should be offering flexibility like this to keep you happy and engaged in your work.

  • tabitha731 on 21/08/2024 - 08:12
    -1

    No-one forces U to go away on the Xmas shut-down period. I get it, It's an expensive time of the year to travel and book anywhere last minute.. so why would U feel U need to travel just coz it's forced leave?

    • djsweet on 21/08/2024 - 09:08

      People with no kids often travel during their holidays. If you are forced to take leave over Christmas that is usually around half your leave. So if you want to travel that is probably when you are going to do it.

    • CaptainJack on 21/08/2024 - 09:46

      Since it's almost half my leave I'd like to make the most of it and go somewhere. Even if its a camping trip that would be cool, but my partner has to work then which is a shame.

      It might be a bit different for others, but I work at home full time, and so spending two weeks in my apartment doesn't give me much of a mental break from the 'workplace', even if I'm catching up with friends every now and then.

  • turbochris on 21/08/2024 - 08:55
    +1

    Time to find a new job

  • djsweet on 21/08/2024 - 09:07

    If you are the only full time employee at a consulting company you likely have all the leverage. You should be able to negotiate whatever leave you want regardless of policy. If you resigned would you completely sink the business? If so, you are really the one calling the shots.

  • 82norm on 21/08/2024 - 11:10

    Your concerns are completely valid, especially given the lack of clear policies and the challenges that come with last-minute decisions during the holiday season. Here are some thoughts on your situation:

    1. Requesting Early Commitment: It is absolutely reasonable to ask your employer to commit to mandated Christmas leave dates now, in August. This gives you the clarity you need to plan accordingly, and it helps to avoid the last-minute scramble. Since your contract is silent on this matter, having a conversation now can set a precedent and reduce uncertainty in the future.

    2. Sucking It Up: While it's easy to think you should just accept the situation as it is, it's important to consider the impact on your personal life and well-being. You have the right to a balanced work-life schedule, and clarity on leave is a part of that. If you continue to let this slide, it might become a recurring issue.

    3. Notice for Forced Leave in Larger Corporations: In mid to large-sized companies, forced leave (often during a Christmas shutdown) is typically communicated well in advance. It’s common for employees to receive notice several months ahead—often by early Q4 (October), sometimes even sooner. This allows employees to plan their personal and professional lives accordingly.

    Given these points, having an open discussion with your employer now seems like the best approach. You could present it as a way to ensure smoother operations and better personal planning, which benefits both you and the company.

    ChatGPT

  • Breddo on 22/08/2024 - 07:28

    I work in a tier 2 consulting company and our end of year shutdown was published about a month ago. When I was with a smaller firm it was still announced about 2 months out from memory.

    It always comes with the condition that if the client requires it you may be able to / asked to work over that period though

  • Broke-Ken on 28/08/2024 - 14:07

    I had three weeks to try and find flights/hotels for the busiest period of the year was a big sore point

    My question is why do you think that you have to travel when you take leave? I have so many things on my 'to do' list that I could easily remain occupied at home during this period, such as DYI Home improvement jobs, work on my car, backlog of games and most importantly catch up on sleep!

    Just my observation, but I have noticed that those that usually take leave right before the new year break often get "volunteered" to be in the skeleton crew and work through the break as they've "just had a break". So take control of the situation, and book leave before it, flights and hotels will be cheaper, tourist areas won't be as busy, and the weather would be nicer too.

    • CaptainJack on 28/08/2024 - 21:56

      I answered that one above. The company doesn't have an office so I just work at home full time. Basically I fit in a lot of the stuff you mention during down time in work hours, and the item at the top of my to do list for actual free time is "get out of the house".

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