Who Is at Fault? Car Accident at T-Intersection

TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 09:56
Last edited 14/08/2024 - 12:46 by 1 other user

Car A and B are approaching a T intersection to turn right onto a 2 lane main road. Car A is ahead and enters a traffic island.

Car B then proceeds to enter the same traffic island but to the right of Car A.

Both cars turn right and attempt to enter the closest lane (right lane) and therefore Car A hits Car B.

I don't know if more than one car is allowed on the traffic island, and whether or not it's a seperate issue to what occurred. This is in VIC.

It wasn't me, and I do have my own opinion, but it is different to what Car B believes.

Sorry no diagram, at work right now.

Pic 1
Pic 2

Automotive

Comments

  • Gdsamp on 14/08/2024 - 10:03
    +19

    No diagram no answer

    • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 10:08
      +2

      I'll try on my lunch break

  • teacherer on 14/08/2024 - 10:06
    +3

    obligatory ms paint diagram pls?

  • AngoraFish on 14/08/2024 - 10:22
    +17

    Car B was being an asshat, but ultimately they can go first at that point because for better or worse they have managed to get in front of Car A and Car A now needs to give way to them. Car A also needs to give way to Car B because Car B is now ahead of them in the actual carriageway they're turning into, which is presumably where the contact occurred. Unless someone is willing to make a police report and Car B gets a ticket for dangerous driving, which they probably should be getting.

  • geekcohen on 14/08/2024 - 10:22
    +3

    Probably Car B.

    Generally if you are going to enter a traffic situation like that. Car B should've gone to the left of Car A. It sounds like Car A didn't know know B was there.

    • cloudy on 14/08/2024 - 10:55
      +2

      Car B shoudnt have entered period IMO, if he went left he'd blocked the view of A.

      • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 20:25

        Often there's at least 2 or 3 cars in that same section trying to turn right, I've been one of them myself but I always leave enough room for any cars to the right of me to be able to see oncoming traffic (from their left).

        The same cannot be said of Car B in other similar instances… Worse, I've also seen them turn right first when there are one or two other cars to the right of them.

        • cloudy on 14/08/2024 - 22:11

          Often there's at least 2 or 3 cars in that same section trying to turn right, I've been one of them myself but I always leave enough room for any cars to the right of me to be able to see oncoming traffic (from their left).

          man, that sounds nasty. I'd be sure to avoid if possible that route.

  • star-ggg on 14/08/2024 - 10:35

    T intersection to turn right onto a 2 lane main road

    If the traffic island is 2 lanes then car A should have stayed in their lane before, during and after turning.

  • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 10:36
    +1

    Intersection and intentions below

    https://ibb.co/88bh8DW

    https://ibb.co/4NVpdjB

    • rappy68 on 14/08/2024 - 10:51
      +7

      In almost every case Car B will be considered at fault.

      The only situation whereby it can be Car A could be fault is IF there is delineation (ie: linemarking) for the turning movement prior to merging into the 2 through lanes. So if Car A is fully in the Left most through-lane and their indicator turns off but then they move across into he right lane "without indicating" and it's on dash cam then there could be an argument that Car A is in the wrong. Looking at the images you've shown driver in Car B is simply impatient and definately in the wrong, they must proceed with caution until Car A finishes it's move and locks to a lane.

  • MrHyde on 14/08/2024 - 10:42
    +4

    Thats a dick move by Car B. Looks like there was plenty of space for Car B to stay behind Car A.

    In any case, I think Car A is at fault as Car B did get ahead of them and Car A entered the main carriageway hitting Car B who were already there.

    • Caped Baldy on 14/08/2024 - 13:18
      +2

      The issue for me is that car A would be concentrating on traffic from the left.

      • Ghost47 on 14/08/2024 - 14:35
        +1

        True though either way if you’re driving a car you should look where you’re going.

        Like if two cars are in a slip lane and the car behind rear ends the car in front because they expected the car to go. In that case it’d still be the car that hits the other cars fault.

        • Caped Baldy on 14/08/2024 - 14:55
          +1

          100%. I think both were careless to differing degrees and both must have gunned it when it was clear resulting in the collision. Hard to say definitively without DC footage.

  • El cheepo on 14/08/2024 - 10:47
    +3

    Car B is a bit of a DB, but how bad a driver is car A to leave a gap big enough for another car to get up the inside of them?

    Not 100% sure who insurance will say is at fault but id assume car B - but without dash cam footage it will probably end up 50/50 unless car B is honest about what happened.

    • cloudy on 14/08/2024 - 10:57
      +5

      Just coz A left a big enough gap doesn't really make them bad…just leaves him more room to turn without being too close to the curb

      • El cheepo on 14/08/2024 - 12:01
        +2

        Without seeing the intersection its hard to say, but generally at those types of junctions there is just enough room for 3 cars total but should only ever have 2 in that space.

        • space for one car to turn off the continuous road.

        • space for one car to use the centre after turning out of the road thats ending.

        • buffer space between the two.

        If car A is in that buffer space, thats crap driving.
        Nothing wrong with leaving a little space, hell even a meter between you and the curb. But a whole car space is bad driving.
        Everyone needs to drive defensively to accommodate for other’s stupidity. (B is the idiot, A wasn’t driving defensively, thus why i say it is poor driving for both)

        • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 12:11
          +1

          I posted a photo of the intersection a few comments above. Wasn't able to edit my main post unfortunately.

          • El cheepo on 14/08/2024 - 12:16
            +1

            @TEER3X: Cheers mate.

            Yep, A was way too far over.
            Potentially could got clipped by cars turning into the street they came out of too.

            B still in the wrong, but poor driving by A.

    • Ghost47 on 14/08/2024 - 14:38
      +2

      Even if car A stayed to the right as far as they could if car B was impatient and a dick I can still imagine them moving into the median strip to the left of car A.

      • El cheepo on 14/08/2024 - 15:21
        +1

        Even if car A stayed to the right as far as they could if car B was impatient and a dick I can still imagine them moving into the median strip to the left of car A.

        100%
        But in that situation, only car B would be doing something stupid and could easily be held liable as the impact will make it clear who was in the correct/incorrect position.

        • cloudy on 14/08/2024 - 15:58
          +1

          But if car B is on your left now, you wont be able to see the on coming traffic you want to turn into…and now you're only safe choice is to now wait for B to go first and you waiting some more. That isn't reasonable to me.

          • El cheepo on 14/08/2024 - 16:39
            +1

            @cloudy: I fully agree with you.

            But letting them go first from that position would be the correct and smart thing to despite them being in the wrong.

            Because if you pull out first and clean up a car, you will be at fault despite them blocking your view.

            If car A was a defensive driver they would of positioned themselves better so that it couldn’t happen - but even then, that doesn’t always stop idiots trying.

            People in general rarely are reasonable or sensible on the roads these days…

            • Ghost47 on 14/08/2024 - 17:38
              +1

              @El cheepo:

              People in general rarely are reasonable or sensible on the roads these days…

              Or considerate of others.

              I've been in the situation at an intersection like this where I've been doing a U-Turn and there's another car doing a U-Turn. I move as far forward as I can to see oncoming traffic but the other car will stay on their side of the road which keeps both of our views obstructed.

            • Euphemistic on 14/08/2024 - 17:39
              +3

              @El cheepo:

              People in general rarely are reasonable or sensible on the roads these days…

              On the contrary, the vast majority of drivers make no impact to your travels. They are predictable in the most part but you really dont notice them.

              However, there are plenty of dumb/arrogant/incompetent drivers that you notice during your travels that make driving far less than pleasant. Unfortunately you'll remember the driver doing something stupid despite having passed hundreds that havent impacted your trip.

              For me today: grey amarok that changed lanes then dropped speed a km before they needed to turn. The blue SUV that tried a multi pt turn in a school zone. The white captiva and silver hatchback that pushed in to a queue. Others: probably a thousand.

              • El cheepo on 14/08/2024 - 18:05

                @Euphemistic:

                On the contrary, the vast majority of drivers make no impact to your travels.

                In a car this may be generally true, as even slight mistakes or inconsiderate driving can be countered with ease.

                In a truck, many drivers make a large impact on my stress and blood pressure.
                They think they are doing nothing wrong but don’t realise how close to death they actually are.

                They are predictable in the most part but you really dont notice them.

                People are predictable and if your driving defensively you should take notice everyone around you. (Thats not a dig at you, thats just general advice for everyone)

                Unfortunately you'll remember the driver doing something stupid despite having passed hundreds that havent impacted your trip.

                Its funny, once you’ve been driving a truck a while, even near death experiences (for people in cars around you) are easily forgotten as they are so frequent 😂

                I would estimate, on a good day, i am only put in a dangerous position about half a dozen times haha.
                It can rise a lot higher too depending on the area and combination i am driving.

                The only ones i remember are the ones that actually end up having or causing accidents.

                • Euphemistic on 14/08/2024 - 20:00

                  @El cheepo: Ooh yeah, I think i notice more idiots than usual when im towing the caravan.

                  Half the drivers out there are worse than average, and the average driver aint good.

  • 87percent on 14/08/2024 - 10:54
    +4

    I hate those traffic islands.. I would rather turn left and do a uturn than sit and wait in the middle of those

    • cloudy on 14/08/2024 - 10:57

      Assuming there's space ahead for a U turn, what if you had to drive a few KMs for a U turn….

    • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 12:10

      Which is what I did when I saw the mess ahead (prior to the accident)… Otherwise I would've had some dash cam footage to show

  • EFC94 on 14/08/2024 - 11:03
    +3

    Car B did a dick move, Car A should've showed a couple of seconds of patience and just let Car B go first (even though Car B shouldn't have entered the intersection). Alternatively, Car A could've shown some defensive driving skills and gone into the far lane.

  • GordonD on 14/08/2024 - 11:21
    +4

    This is the NSW government's definition of a "traffic island". "A traffic island is a raised area on a road to direct traffic. You must not drive on a traffic island." So I have no idea what the OP is describing when they talk about "entering a traffic island".

    Oh, we're talking about a gap in the traffic island that is the median strip on a divided road. No, in the absence of any lane markings there's no restriction on a second vehicle entering and waiting to turn in that area. Which means whoever was "ahead" - which in this case means to the right - should be given way to by whoever was on the left. A is in the wrong. I presume the driver of A was watching to the left for a gap in the traffic, and missed the fact that B was beside and ahead of them, but that's not an excuse, it was driver of A who was under an obligation to avoid a collision.

    In fact, if the driver of A left enough room to their right for another vehicle they were in the wrong place. They should have been as far over to the right as reasonably possibly to allow another vehicle to turn right off the divided road into the minor road behind them. I have to admit I made that mistake myself the first time I encountered one of these, and got sworn at by the other driver who wanted to turn across behind me, not in front of me.

    • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 15:58

      So I have no idea what the OP is describing when they talk about "entering a traffic island".

      Oh, we're talking about a gap in the traffic island that is the median strip on a divided road

      Glad you were able to figure it out all on your own.

  • JIMB0 on 14/08/2024 - 11:31

    The Audi.

  • CurlCurl on 14/08/2024 - 12:10
    +1

    The Audi

    Wrong.

    It was the BMW.

    • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 12:16

      Wrong, it was clearly the cyclist

    • JIMB0 on 14/08/2024 - 13:03

      That's assuming it wasn't an A class Mercedes with optional AMG badges and all the bells and whistles.

  • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 12:13

    Anyway mods can add the pictures to the original post. Looks like a poll may be needed as well since the opinions are divided.

  • Porker on 14/08/2024 - 12:17
    +1

    As an aside, what if or do insurance companies disagree on who's at fault? Eg. If Car A's insurance says it's B's fault, and visa versa.

    Do both jointly communicate with both drivers? - unlikely. Just curious to know given A's insurance might say they'll go after B when B's insurance says the reverse.

  • trapper on 14/08/2024 - 13:15

    Sounds like car B at fault, unless there is more to the story.

  • Euphemistic on 14/08/2024 - 15:37

    Based on your descripition and pictures B was a douche. Not sure who is technically at fault.

  • ihbh on 14/08/2024 - 15:55
    +1

    Same thing happened to me a few months ago. The 2nd car was an SUV. I couldn't see a thing and had to wait for them to turn because I got visibility to turn.

    • ihbh on 15/08/2024 - 09:32
      • because -> before
  • AndyC1 on 14/08/2024 - 18:56

    How is this a T intersection from the pics. It is a 4 way intersection from the pics, which change everything and the rules as well.

    need to show give way or stop signs if there are any.

    • TEER3X on 14/08/2024 - 19:40

      I said T intersection to simplify things, it changes absolutely nothing in the context of what happened.

      • AndyC1 on 15/08/2024 - 22:43

        So at a T intersection who has to give way to the other cars, unless sign posted otherwise?
        At a 4 way you give way to cars to the XYZ? What is XYZ?

        • TEER3X on 17/08/2024 - 09:21

          If you want to complicate things go ahead.

          In this instance both cars need to give way to cars on their left as they are both now in the middle island (or whatever you want to call it), where they are both turning right to onto the main road with the flow of traffic already coming from their left.

          Whether I said 4 way intersection or T intersection is completely irrelevant.

          Please refer to the pictures if you are still confused.

          • AndyC1 on 17/08/2024 - 09:37

            @TEER3X: I am not confused like you are over T or 4 way.

            • TEER3X on 17/08/2024 - 09:46

              @AndyC1:

              It is a 4 way intersection from the pics, which change everything and the rules as well.

              Ok then, explain how it changes anything in the context of the situation?

  • bweiss on 15/08/2024 - 07:56
    +2

    Absolutely horrible description of the situation, it's not a T intersection at all. T intersections, as the name implies, look identical to the letter T.

    I would argue Car B will have the best defence here. The damage to their vehicle will be towards the rear of the car, indicating that Car A was the impacting vehicle, and hence was the one with the primary requirement to avoid the collision (unless there was some mitigating circumstance.. which I think would be hard for Car A to argue.. obstruction etc has the counter argument of 'what if it was a child that ran out from the obstruction… you were driving too fast for the conditions').

    If Car A has dashcam footage it might help them. But it likely just shows them accelerating into the side of Car B.
    Once they're both within the traffic island, it doesn't really matter 'how' they got there. They are both 'safe' at that time. So it's what happened next that would matter… and that appears to be that Car A accelerated forward without looking to see if there was any obstruction in the way (Car B).. and hence they collided into Car B.

    • kobeduck on 15/08/2024 - 08:04

      I agree unless Car B came late and was hit as Car A was turning. Still might be hard to prove without a dashcam.

    • TEER3X on 15/08/2024 - 18:39

      Absolutely horrible description of the situation, it's not a T intersection at all. T intersections, as the name implies, look identical to the letter T.

      Yes you are correct it's not a T intersection, but I said that to make things easier to understand…. It changes nothing in the scenario described.

  • Browsers on 15/08/2024 - 10:21

    Car B at fault for failing the basics - If you are…facing a Give Way sign or line you must give way to any vehicle already in, entering or approaching an intersection.
    https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…

    Car A is 'already in' the intersection, and its exact positioning within the median strip is irrelevant. Hopefully Car A has an independent witness as driver of Car B would probably just say he was there first.

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