Brothers Red Light Fine - Is It Technically a Fine?

LAnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 15:26
Last edited 13/07/2024 - 16:46 by 1 other user

This is the first image. There is no prior image of car behind the line. Brother was waiting across the line on an amber light to turn right (silver car on the right.)

Looks like the Mini Cooper on the left, set off the red light camera?

Yes yes was probably pushing it and should be much less reckless. However in the black and white eyes of the law, is this technically a fine? Did not cross a solid white line on a red?

Thanks for your time, hope you enjoyed another red light thread

EDIT: Specific question (SA)
Should there be a photo of the vehicle, before crossing the solid white line & showing a red light? (irrefutable proof of guilt)

Poll Options expired

  • 212
    Guilty
  • 53
    Not Guilty
Automotive Fine

Comments

  • randomusername2017 on 13/07/2024 - 15:31
    +11

    Option 3. Yes you should take the points for your brother for the privilege to create a new account and sh#post.

    • mapax on 13/07/2024 - 15:36

      AKA

      Member Since
      34 min ago

      • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 15:39
        +5

        Is it because there is no MSpaint?

        • pharkurnell on 13/07/2024 - 15:56
          +28

          … but your supposed to be new…. how would you know about MSpaint requirements…

          • CurlCurl on 13/07/2024 - 16:39
            +4

            @pharkurnell:

            but your supposed to be new…. how would you know about MSpaint requirements…

            Easy. Many people read, come here for the bargains without joining.

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 15:38
      +27

      Only comments that back my narrative please.

      • El cheepo on 13/07/2024 - 18:45

        Ngl, i’m loving the honesty.

        But, “bros” guilty unless he can prove otherwise though.

      • HeWhoKnows on 14/07/2024 - 08:01
        +2

        If the subject vehicle is stationary it will show in the 2nd photo.
        Hence you can argue that you stopped at the lights and di not cross the intersection, even though you crossed the stop line.

        • Jackson on 15/07/2024 - 01:36

          Still guilty

  • boomramada on 13/07/2024 - 15:38

    Technically, you shouldn't cross the white line on RED.

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 15:40
      +2

      Didn't cross it on RED. Crossed on AMBER.

      the Mini coop crossed on RED.

      • randomusername2017 on 13/07/2024 - 15:45
        -1

        Wouldn't have been in frame if they'd cleared the intersection in a timely manner…

        Infringements are manually vetted prior to being issued🤔

      • zathras on 15/07/2024 - 14:21

        Still an offence to run a yellow light in SA.

        From RAA website:

        Running a red light is a big no-no, and there are hefty fines for anyone who does. But did you know you can also be charged with failing to stop at an intersection for a yellow light or arrow, and the penalty is the same for running a red?

        Between 2018 and 2022 police detected 2062 offences from drivers who ran a yellow light.

        The current penalty – $540, plus a $99 Victims of Crimes Levy and three demerit points.

        https://samove.raa.com.au/the-dangers-of-running-a-yellow-li…

  • TALL1one on 13/07/2024 - 15:42
    +4

    There should never be any doubt as to which vehicle caused the photo to be taken. The camera system specifies which lane the offending vehicle is in afaik!

    • nocure on 13/07/2024 - 15:54
      +11

      Lane details have conveniently been omitted from the pic

  • askbargain on 13/07/2024 - 15:50
    +11

    Is It Technically a Fine?

    you got the fine so technically yes?

  • freefall101 on 13/07/2024 - 15:51
    +2

    The photo is taken after the car crosses the red line, the sensor detects if the car crossed the red line after the light turned red.

    Unless you're telling me that your brother was dead stationary at the point that photo was taken (which seems unlikely, if he continued to follow the car in front), it's likely his rear wheels hadn't cleared the white line when the light actually turned red.

    It seems unlikely the light was triggered by the mini. Their brake lights are on, they went over the line a bit but that's not what triggers a red light camera.

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 16:37
      -3

      (which seems unlikely, if he continued to follow the car in front)

      Is seems "unlikely" irrefutable proof of breaking the law? We all know OJ was guilty.

      • freefall101 on 13/07/2024 - 17:55
        +1

        No, the proof is the sensor data that captures that, they don't need photographic evidence of him not being in the intersection before it's red. The photo proves the light was red and he was in the intersection. He'd need to argue that the sensors were wrong somehow.

        I was pointing out that you saying that he crossed the line when it was amber, not red, is unlikely to begin with though, so there's no point fighting it.

        Additionally, it's already illegal to enter an intersection when the light is yellow unless your unable to stop. So he would have had to slowly rolled into the intersection on amber, stopped, then took off again and somehow the sensor data is wrong.

  • DashCam AKA Rolts on 13/07/2024 - 15:54
    +9

    Photo looks fine.

  • sumyungguy on 13/07/2024 - 15:57
    +6

    In the black and white eyes of the law, technically you're required to stop on amber.

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 16:26

      Indeed, when safe to do so in the conditions. Could have been over the amber within 0.5second? but we will never know.

      Many intersections you move into the middle to turn right when traffic clear.

      • sumyungguy on 13/07/2024 - 16:43

        And in those intersections fitted with red light cameras you'd be fined for turning right on red. To win in court you'll have to prove you entered the intersection on green but somehow couldn't proceed, as if a sinkhole opened up in front of you.

        • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 17:22
          -2

          If it was a police officer issuing the fine in person, yes you're absolutely correct. They can issue a fine for running an Amber even.

          Red light cameras can only fine you for ENTERING an intersection whilst red. The burden of proof is showing that you crossed the white while the light was red.

          A red light camera does not have the powers of a police officer.

        • thetrain on 15/07/2024 - 01:02
          +3

          Incorrect. I turn right on an intersection with a red light camera on my way to work daily.

          Turned right on red plenty of times legally. I enter intersection on green and wait until intersection clear. Never been fined.

          However, my intersection has no red or green right turn arrows

          • AnotherRedLight on 15/07/2024 - 10:58

            @thetrain:

            I enter intersection on green and wait until intersection clear.

            that's what i said…

      • TrustNoBody on 14/07/2024 - 18:18

        if there’s no 2nd photo to prove he actually drove through the red light and didn’t just pass the first white line , i would take it to court if he has a good driving history more likely then not the magistrate will give a warning n withdraw the fine ..

      • JakeyJooJoo on 22/07/2024 - 13:15
        -1

        I've ran through an amber light recently and had a copper chase me down to hand me a ticket, really surprised me. The way the average person treats amber lights, and the way the law is written is completely different.
        Sucks but according to the law your bro is guilty.

  • bobbified on 13/07/2024 - 16:00
    +2

    There should be two pictures for a red light camera fine. The first one to show that the vehicle has crossed the line after red and the second picture shows that the vehicle has continued moving.

    Sometimes the sensors are placed just after the white line (rather than on the actual white line). If you go back there, you can see the cuts in the road. It seems like it's exactly where the back tyres are.

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 16:29

      I would of thought, 2 photos would be BEFORE crossing the white line on red, and the second AFTER crossing the white line on red?

      • bobbified on 13/07/2024 - 16:47
        +1

        That's what i meant. I think the sensor in this case is cut into the road just after the white line.

  • Broke-Ken on 13/07/2024 - 16:01
    +1

    TL:DR Your brother got done cause of the overhanging tow bar

    To understand why your bro got done, you need to understand the technology they use for the red light cameras. They don't have line cameras like in the tennis to see if you're over or not. They actually have induction loops in the ground which pick up any metallic objects(Eg cars) which passes over the line, before and after.

    There was a red light cameras near my old work place, which we would see them calibrate all the time during our lunch break. They used temporary line cameras to confirm the readings were correct, but they were pretty much testing the timing of the induction loops being triggered(One before the line and one after).

    So back to your brother's situation, his tow bar essentially extended the rear of his car to be over the line still when the lights turned red. These sensors are placed in each lane, so they know which lane triggered it, and it wasn't the mini cooper.

    • askbargain on 13/07/2024 - 16:18
      +5

      No way a small tow bar triggers it

      • 87percent on 13/07/2024 - 16:24

        Besides tap parking, why would that car even have a tow bar??

        • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 16:28
          +6

          Brother tows his 2500kg yacht to the country club.

          • leiiv on 14/07/2024 - 10:35
            +7

            @AnotherRedLight: He can pay the fine just fine, or hire a lawyer to fight it..

  • Benoffie on 13/07/2024 - 16:27

    If in doubt, challenge it. I mean, what's the harm? It's a simple process that you're entitled to and certainly in SA there would be 2 photos to prevent this type of disagreement.

    It wont be difficult for them to double check the intersection footage to see what's what.

    • askbargain on 13/07/2024 - 16:28

      lmao the lengths people will go to avoid admitting they are in the wrong

      • Benoffie on 13/07/2024 - 18:42

        My bad. I re read it and corrected the car. Yes, pay up. He should have stopped.

        For the OP

        The police look at the timer (say 4 secs) and look at the rate of travel. If you had the opportunity to stop, were not already in the intersection and continued, that's the killer.

        I had a similar disagreement with the partner several years ago. He asked for additional photos (which police happily provided) and all it did was give me more ammo for an arse kicking.

        • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 21:55

          were not already in the intersection and continued, that's the killer.

          With nothing but 2 photos shared, they have no way to prove that he wasn't already in the intersection. Stopped ahead of line albeit barely then moved.

          Its just a personal annoyance that their tech could be so inept.

          If it was someone that ran a red and killed someone, an expensive lawyer could get them off with plausible deniability (against just based on the 2 photos & assuming there is not more saved)

      • schquid on 14/07/2024 - 13:03

        If you so much as think a hill exists then it's worth dying on it these days, apparently.

      • TrustNoBody on 14/07/2024 - 18:22

        i would fight this if i had just gone over the first white line and not actually proceeded to drive into the intersection

        • sumyungguy on 14/07/2024 - 19:23

          How would you win? Once over the line you're deemed to have entered the intersection.

          • TrustNoBody on 16/07/2024 - 07:13

            @sumyungguy: but he was saying he was over the line before it went red as he was waiting to turn right , then it went red if no second photo how do they know he didn’t reverse back over the white line ..

  • simplystu on 13/07/2024 - 17:01
    +3

    Pay up.

    "You are not allowed to enter an intersection unless safe to do so".

    Brother can contest this in the court if he wishes. … But IMO - won't go well.

    This is from personal EXP many years ago, very similar to OP's brother … I'm in WA.

  • Downvoter on 13/07/2024 - 17:09
    +2

    Can mods track this IP and penalty box due to dupe account

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 17:25
      -2

      Honest and truthfully, do not have another account.

  • MS Paint on 13/07/2024 - 17:16

    I wonder who OP really is? Their sense of humour is familiar but I just can't place it.

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 17:23
      +2

      cant place it? Try finger, but hole.

      • MS Paint on 13/07/2024 - 18:49
        +1

        That's it. PinkySphincter

  • holdenmg on 13/07/2024 - 17:38
    +1

    Is that Cnr Sturt & heading South on Marion Rd?

    Right down the Road from Sturt Police Station…

    https://www.google.com/maps/@-35.0168918,138.5588867,3a,75y,…

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 13/07/2024 - 20:05

      Correct, it is Cnr Sturt & heading South on Marion Rd.

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 21:22

      Nice and convenient to have the most dangerous intersection and in South Australia, right near the Police station, Ambulance station and Flinders hospital.

      Red Light camera has been there for quite a number of years, its not getting any safer…..

  • GordonD on 13/07/2024 - 17:50
    +1

    There's a stop line that you are supposed to wait behind unless you can enter the intersection and get through it.

    There's a sensor on the intersection side of the stop line to see if you have passed it before the light turns red.

    Then there's the intersection.

    The Honda stopped partly above the stop line. and directly over the sensor. The light turned red. The Honda moved forward. The sensor detected its presence and its movement, and triggered the camera. The fact that there is a Mini that is stopped over the stop line and sensor in another lane is entirely coincidental and irrelevant. If it moved, it probably got a ticket too.

    The driver of the Honda is guilty of entering the intersection on red.

    • TightLikeThisx on 15/07/2024 - 18:42

      I don't know if it's the case in SA but in NSW you are allowed to enter the intersection to turn at lights.

      • Ramrunner on 15/07/2024 - 18:53

        Here in WA ONLY if it's clear.

        The photo shows it was not, there was already a car in the intersection turning right (blue SUV). The Honda turning right should not have been over the line moving into the intersection.

        I doubt it's different having done my test in NSW but that was a while ago. It would be damn stupid if that was allowed.

        • TightLikeThisx on 15/07/2024 - 19:46
          +1

          https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…

          Relevant part:
          "Turning right at traffic lights
          When there’s a green traffic light but no right arrow signal, wait until oncoming traffic clears or breaks, and then turn.

          If the lights change to yellow or red while you’re in the intersection, you must turn right as soon as it’s safe to do so."

          • Ramrunner on 17/07/2024 - 08:11
            +1

            @TightLikeThisx: Nothing about if a car in front of you is already past the line turning right (so already in the intersection?).

            This only refers to oncoming traffic but surely if someone is turning right in front of you, has entered the intersection past the white line, also means you can't enter until they're clear? (Stay behind the white line?)

            • TightLikeThisx on 17/07/2024 - 17:31

              @Ramrunner:

              Nothing about if a car in front of you is already past the line turning right (so already in the intersection?).

              Do you expect them to list out every possible condition? Why does it matter if one car has entered the intersection? The idea is lights change and the cars in the intersection then turn before the direction they are turning in gets the green. This is why you are not suppose to enter the intersection until there is space on the other size of the intersection. In that case no car should be entering the intersection.

              This only refers to oncoming traffic but surely if someone is turning right in front of you, has entered the intersection past the white line, also means you can't enter until they're clear? (Stay behind the white line?)

              The white line is the stop line. If there is a red light or if there is a yellow light and no danger to stop this is the line that you should not be above. Motorists stoped at the lights who have crossed the line prior to the light changing red regularly get fined.

              • Ramrunner on 18/07/2024 - 13:37
                +1

                @TightLikeThisx: I think in misunderstanding me a little, you actually agree with me.

                You said:

                "This is why you are not suppose to enter the intersection until there is space on the other size of the intersection. In that case no car should be entering the intersection."

                That is EXACTLY my point. The Honda is turning right, but there is already a blue SUV turning right in front of him that has not cleared the intersection to tun right (probably had to wait for some oncoming traffic). Therefore the Honda should not have entered the intersection, therefore should be behind the white line. Obviously the light turned red while the BLUE SUV was waiting to turn right in the intersection, and it looks like the Honda partially entered expecting the SUV to be gone before the light turned red. That's what it looks like to me and I see happen all the time unfortunately.

                I think we're actually on the same page. I was just referring to the Honda shouldn't have proceeded in his right turn (go past the line) unilt the right turning SUV had cleared the intersection. The fine was therefore fair and just.

                In my opinion.

                • TightLikeThisx on 18/07/2024 - 20:52
                  +1

                  @Ramrunner: The Honda is still passing over the line (bumper) so yes they should expect to get fined.

                  The other side of the intersection for the cars turning right is the street on the right where both cars are turning into.

                  So Honda should have either stayed behind the stop line or entered fully into the intersection provided they could keep enough distance from the car turning in front of them.

                  So for this intersection yes probably one car can only enter to turn. But for other bigger intersections multiple cars can enter.

                  • Ramrunner on 19/07/2024 - 12:25
                    +1

                    @TightLikeThisx: OK - clarified - thank you.

                    I was under the impression only one car can enter the intersecion EVER. Did not know mutiples could enter. Not sure it's the same here in WA pretty sure we're supposed to wait at the line for any cars already turning and in the intersection.

                    Either way - how many times do people just pile into the intersection and get caught out clogging the intersection in other directions when the light turns red so for example people actually going straight can't actually go?

                    Maybe we NEED more red light cameras LoL.

                    Thanks for the chat mate appreciate your knowledge.

                    • TightLikeThisx on 20/07/2024 - 11:24
                      +1

                      @Ramrunner: Completely agree with everything you said.

                      IMHO there are too many rules, too little enforcement and the penalties are too small because they don't scale with income. e.g. in intersections if you don't clog it often people will go straight from the turning lane and clog the intersection so if you don't clog it yourself it's possible to end up stuck at the lights.

  • [Deactivated] on 13/07/2024 - 18:50
    -1

    OP seems to want confirmation bias.
    Your "brother" broke the law. He will need to pay the fine. /close thread.

    • askbargain on 13/07/2024 - 19:50
      +2

      you don't want confirmation bias, you want validation.

      • [Deactivated] on 13/07/2024 - 20:32

        Brother was waiting across the line on an amber light to turn right (silver car on the right.)

        This is confirmation bias.

        But I can also see your point about validation too, which is also true.

  • Dollar General on 13/07/2024 - 20:16
    +6

    Could be an issue with the camera itself so I would recreate the scenario again to see if you get pinged again

    • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 21:25
      -1

      Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast. I would catch it.

  • AnotherRedLight on 13/07/2024 - 21:47

    There was approximately 1.5 car lengths the car had moved between photo 1 and 2 (1 second) which would indicate he was traveling at approx 26km/h.

    I am going to advocate to pay the fine, in installments.He never said he was going to challenge it.
    The photo just personally annoyed me, ive seen a few red lights as i review the employees vehicle fines at work, they always show a before photo behind the line.
    Seems like an error in communication between the camera and loop leading to uncertainty.

    Lil bro got a new job (casual) contract signed and all paperwork complete so quit old job. Then No shifts for first 2 weeks of new job!? what a shit world we live in sometimes.

    Had to desperately apply and has a new job starting Monday.

    • SnoozeAndLose on 14/07/2024 - 20:57

      can you share the second photo?

      • AnotherRedLight on 15/07/2024 - 10:55
        -5

        I don't think its required at this stage. Was clearly in motion.

  • Wiadro on 13/07/2024 - 22:32

    GUILTY

  • pegaxs on 13/07/2024 - 22:54

    lol… that you err, I meant “your brother” in the right hand turning lane? Pay the fine.

    100% that story about “was waiting on amber” is absolute bullshit. Please, use that excuse in your “brothers” review letter.

  • panos on 14/07/2024 - 07:57

    Your over the line GUILTY AS CHARGED PAY UP

  • 2esc on 14/07/2024 - 08:53
    +1

    Doesnt amber mean stop unless you are unable to?(As in not able to brake in time before the line).

    Did he actually enter on green or on amber? Coming up to turn he shouldnt have been travelling too fast to stop. But your not supposed to queue to turn within the intersection mind you i was told that 30 years ago by a driving instructor so rules may have changed.

    • AnotherRedLight on 15/07/2024 - 10:53
      -2

      But your not supposed to queue to turn within the intersection

      You get aggressively honked at in Adelaide for not queuing in the intersection

      • pegaxs on 15/07/2024 - 12:39
        +3

        Oh noes!! not "aggressively honked at"…

  • Euphemistic on 14/07/2024 - 10:09
    +2

    Its impossible to say with that one photo amd only second hand info from the driver.

    There are 4 cars that could have triggered the camera.

    • gromit on 14/07/2024 - 20:20
      +1

      If you showed the full picture it might be more obvious. When my wife got one it clearly stated on the photo which lane triggered the camera, looks like Op has accidentally or intentionally hidden those details

      • AnotherRedLight on 15/07/2024 - 11:02
        -3

        Its rude to make assumptions of something that i did do.

  • SnoozeAndLose on 14/07/2024 - 20:57
    +3

    can you share the second photo?

  • snorkey on 15/07/2024 - 02:00

    The shared picture seems to show that when light turned red, the Honda car’s rear wheels and part of the back of the vehicle were still partially on the white line. My understanding is that if the vehicle had been completely past the white line by the time the light turned red then there would have been no fine for proceeding to turn on the red light.

  • Drakesy on 15/07/2024 - 12:52

    If they were already in the intersection the red light camera generally wouldn't have triggered as the sensor that indicates a change in impedence is immediately behind the line, unfortunately your brother moved across the line on the red.

    But yes could be argued that it was the mini cooper, either way both are over the line.

  • R4 on 15/07/2024 - 14:55
    +2

    Guilty - based on what I can see in that photo.

    Just pay up and move on.

  • lothus777 on 15/07/2024 - 16:05
    +1

    Guilty - doesn't look like break lights are on and rear wheels like look their over the line

    • Ramrunner on 15/07/2024 - 16:44

      Brake lights and they're

  • Ramrunner on 15/07/2024 - 16:46
    +1

    He should not be over the line as it looks like there's a blue SUV still turning right?

    You cannot move into an intersection if another car is already there. Red light or otherwise.

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