EV Price Wars: Are Legacy Brands Running out of Gas?

BuddhaBoy on 08/06/2024 - 14:45

Hey everyone!

EV prices are taking a nosedive! It’s like a clearance sale on wheels. Maybe there’s an oversupply, or maybe brands just want to play “How low can you go?” Take Tesla, for example. Their super-efficient manufacturing means they can sell EVs cheaper than my grocery bill and still make bank.

So, how are the old-school car brands going to cope with this EV stampede? I mean, I was eyeing the Volvo XC60 Recharge, and it starts at $100,000! Even the regular XC60 is starts above $80k. Who’s shelling out that kind of cash when you can snag a BYD, Chinese brand, or Tesla for way less? It’s like choosing between a gourmet meal and an all-you-can-eat buffet.

What do you think? Can legacy brands keep up, or are they headed for the museum next to the horse-drawn carriage?

Automotive Electric Vehicle

Comments

          • Rob-4x4 on 09/06/2024 - 16:21
            -4

            @Euphemistic: So what do people who live , work and travel in regional and remote areas do ?

            Not every body in Australia lives and only travels in a metro area and should those people be penalised as the current generation of BEVs are unsuitable ?

            • Euphemistic on 09/06/2024 - 18:42
              +2

              @Rob-4x4: Oh fr crying out loud. I jever said the maximum for all cars should be less than 300km. I said it twice: city commuter cars dont need stupidly long range. There doesnt need to be a minimum range for cars. SOME car need more range and thats fine. Cars used to drive to the station or go to the supernarket MOSTLY never need more than 200km range.

              Why not have two variants of the same car available with a city sized battery for a lot cheaper and a larger battery for those who want it, after all its the battery that chews up a lot of cost in an EV.

          • sponson on 11/06/2024 - 21:32
            +1

            @Euphemistic: If you read the comments from some of the naysayers, allegedly they do 1000km every day without so much as a piss break. Uphill both ways too, probably.

            • Euphemistic on 12/06/2024 - 06:15
              +1

              @sponson: Yep. The anti EV rhetorix has got people believing they need ultra range when its just not reality for most.

        • Rob-4x4 on 09/06/2024 - 16:16
          -2

          A friend with a Model 3 that is supposed to have a good range said that he found that when using the heater and cold weather etc he found his real range could drop to around 250 km or so .. so be wary of those sort of things.

          As for interest rates normalising just remember we are coming back from a period of unheard-of and unprecedented low interest rates.. so compared to long term averages the current rates are not particularly high..But hopefully there will be some relief for mortgage holders in the not to distant future but I would not think they will drop that much… Best thing is see if you can get one on a Novated lease

          Other wise he said it is a terrific car..

          • Tleyx on 11/06/2024 - 14:52

            @Rob-4x4: 250km is plenty far for lots of people. Not all but lots

    • bobz79 on 11/06/2024 - 00:54
      +1

      Exactly, if EVs have less parts and complexity compared to ICE, shouldn't they be cheaper than ICE! Even Xiaomi could make one :-)

  • pegaxs on 08/06/2024 - 18:57
    +29

    “I’m not buying and EV until prices drop!!”
    *prices drop*
    “ZoMg! LoOk hOw mUcH eVs hAvE dRoPpED!!1! WhY wOuLd yOuSe bUy aN eV!!1!1”

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 09/06/2024 - 01:52
      +2

      ThAt MaKeS sEnSe. ChEeRs.

    • BuddhaBoy on 09/06/2024 - 16:15

      Exactly! This is how the market reacting! So weird!

    • Sinnerator on 10/06/2024 - 08:37
      +4

      reading that gave my neighbours dog a stroke

      • beach bum on 13/06/2024 - 17:25

        Footrot Flatline 💔

  • DingoBilly on 08/06/2024 - 18:59

    The future is obviously EVs in some form.

    Chinese companies have done a great job of stealing marketshare from overpriced and slow older brands. Either the established brands catch up so they can compete or they will die. Atm it seems like at least some are failing to innovate. Like I have no idea wtf Toyota is doing and they seem like they could go if they keep on their current path.

    It's pretty basic business and happens time and time again to companies that surely can't fail and have the complete marketplace dominated like Blackberry, Yahoo, Blockbuster, Nokia, Kodak Etc. Some of these companies literally had the option to buy the company that destroyed them, but thought they were too big to fail and didn't have any issues.

  • mskeggs on 08/06/2024 - 19:54
    +2

    Take Tesla, for example. Their super-efficient manufacturing means they can sell EVs cheaper than my grocery bill and still make bank.

    I think you might have had too much of the koolaid.

    It’s like choosing between a gourmet meal and an all-you-can-eat buffet.

    Have you considered this is a terrible analogy, and the type of person who chooses a Star buffet over a real restaurant is not representative of many people at all.

  • p1 ama on 08/06/2024 - 21:39
    +20

    If you ever see anyone making an argument against EVs and using "their prices are falling" as evidence, then they are a hack. Since when have we ever taken falling prices as a bad thing?

    Prices falling are exactly what we would expect to happen. EVs are moving from the early adopter market to the mainstream market, production volumes are increasing, competition is increasing, the cost of raw materials (particularly batteries) are falling, and manufacturing in lower cost countries (e.g. China vs. the US, for instance) is going to continue putting downward pressure on prices.

    This is fantastic. Even if you prefer to not drive an EV, lower EV prices will put downward pressure on ICE vehicles as well.

    FWIW, my general feeling is that now is not a great time to buy a car. If you need a car, buy a cheap old Camry or something. The way I see it is that:

    (i) Car prices (in general) are still falling post-pandemic. It is likely that you will pay less (whether the sticker price is lower, or whether you can negotiate a lower price at a dealership) in the future vs. right now. This is true for all cars, both EVs and ICE.

    (ii) Yes, it's absolutely clear that EVs are still getting better at a pretty rapid pace, and prices are still falling. If you don't want to be an early adopter, you can get a better car for cheaper in a few years time when EVs have gotten a larger market share

    (iii) What will happen to ICE vehicle prices remain unclear. With EV prices falling, this can only place downward pressure on ICE vehicles. I would hazard a guess that second hand ICE vehicles (particularly newish ones) are going to take a price beating in the market in the coming years.

    My sense is that the market is all just normalising. After a few years of obsession with new cars (both ICE and EVs), the market is going to go back towards new cars being shitty purchases (they always have been, remember?) and used cars being where the deals are at again.

    • Euphemistic on 08/06/2024 - 22:45

      Yes, it's absolutely clear that EVs are still getting better at a pretty rapid pace, and prices are still falling. If you don't want to be an early adopter, you can get a better car for cheaper in a few years time when EVs have gotten a larger market share

      Think youre right about waiting a couple of years
      Between the early adopter phase and mass market uptake will be a transtion. Hopefully fleets take up the next couple of years to keep the market healthy. Im sure fleet managers will see the benefits of less fuel and servicing. This will hell kick start the EV used car market as cost of living comes down and the new car market for EV expands.

    • neoleo on 08/06/2024 - 23:09

      Another different news that higher profits for some Japanese car manufacturers by having less electric cars globally at the moment:

      https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/car-brands-making-reco…

  • TEER3X on 08/06/2024 - 22:41
    +1

    I'm still waiting for better battery tech. Solid state batteries still can't be that far off can they?

    • Euphemistic on 08/06/2024 - 22:53
      +1

      Dont hold your breath, current lithium stuff works pretty well. Solid state will come, but lithium tech has been here for over 10 years so its well developed and is lasting a lot longer than expected.

      Its a bit like waiting for a next gen computer or phone. You have to buy at some point. The next new thing will be almost here all the time.

    • neoleo on 08/06/2024 - 23:05

      It's in the news. Wait for Toyota EV in 2027/2028 with 10 minutes recharge for its battery and over 1000 km range ;-)

    • tabboy on 11/06/2024 - 14:24

      What about salt battery tech?

      https://www.crikey.com.au/2023/09/13/electric-cars-salt-batt…

      • Rally Dave on 12/06/2024 - 09:37

        At the moment, most people are thinking salt batteries for fixed (not mobile) storage so should create a big drop in house batteries in the future.

      • beach bum on 13/06/2024 - 17:34

        We are talking sodium/salt batteries?
        Sodium ion ?
        Just replacing lithium with Sodium in D sized batteries ?

        • tabboy on 13/06/2024 - 17:43

          DD sodium-ion

  • neoleo on 08/06/2024 - 23:02

    More competitors, oversupply, pricing war. That's from some of the news that I read previously.

    Anyone can read the news below:

    https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/ca…

    Another different news that higher profits for some Japanese car manufacturers by having less electric cars globally at the moment:

    https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/car-brands-making-reco…

  • Tigerstu on 09/06/2024 - 08:15
    +6

    Up until not to long ago, the argument has been "EV prices are too high. When they drop I might think of getting one". Now prices drop, the argument is "prices are tanking. Not worth investing".

    • reactor-au on 09/06/2024 - 10:24
      +2

      To be fair, why would anyone buy anything today at $10 when there is indication it will be $8 next week?

      • May4th on 09/06/2024 - 12:16

        What are you typing on? Is your phone/computer going to be worth more in 3 months? Why are cars any different?

        • reactor-au on 09/06/2024 - 12:36
          +4

          Your analogy makes no sense.
          If you know that iPhone 15 pro max is $1899 today but there's going to be a sale next week for 10% off, are you going to buy today or wait for next week?

          • May4th on 09/06/2024 - 12:48
            +3

            @reactor-au: I'd buy one today if I needed a car and I won't cry if it drops like literally every other thing you buy, but feel free to share your crystal ball so we know when the next price cut will be

            • Exorcist on 09/06/2024 - 23:38

              @May4th: why do you think reactor will share the crystal ball with you when you just buy stuff as you “need” them

        • Binchicken22 on 10/06/2024 - 15:01

          I'd hazard a guess it's because if the iPhone drops by 10%, it's 150 bucks. If the EV drops by 10%, it's 6.5 grand ~.

      • saltcheetah on 10/06/2024 - 10:32

        I reckon you’ve missed the point. The comment wasn’t about deferring the decision to buy at a better/lower price in the future. It was saying even though the initial excuse was that prices were too high, now, even though prices have dropped they still won’t buy.

  • 2esc on 09/06/2024 - 10:45
    +2

    I wonder how low and middle income people are going to cope in the future they rely greatly on the secondhand car market.

    Our local vege pickers from overseas also rely on the really cheap secondhand cars to pick this countries veges no public transport out here. When a ev car gets to 15 years old what are the costs to keep it going.

    I dont have a problem with ev cars i do think its a narrow view that people think ev is the only answer.

    Ev cars should have been designed around removable batteries as suggested by experts years ago but the car manufacturers didnt want that because that would mean ev cars would last too long. Electric cars are fantastic but what does the future hold for low income people.

    • panos on 09/06/2024 - 11:30
      -2

      Let them WALK…..they have legs.

    • Euphemistic on 09/06/2024 - 12:25
      +1

      You can remove a battery pack from an EV. They just arent standardised.

      By the time an EV gets to 15yo there should be plenty of written off examples to collect parts from, just like with ICE. The expense will be batteries, but chances are than in 15y the battery will still have mpre than 50% of its capacity available, so not great for country driving, but fine for a commuter car.

    • greatlamp on 10/06/2024 - 20:44
      +1

      It will become like mobile phones, replaceable but only by a trained technician. Mechanics will transition from changing oil to changing batteries.

    • beach bum on 13/06/2024 - 17:49

      More trains are definitely needed but it’s a big “ expense “.
      Government happy to let developers cut up every bit of farming land around all the major cities but can we get proper public transport to go with it ,
      na ah
      Here’s a bus totally intermittently.
      We have existing track on the south side of Brisbane but can it be electrified and get some stations ,
      Fork no , here have some more traffic lights and it now takes hours to go anywhere .

  • lew380 on 09/06/2024 - 12:45
    -2

    Electric cars are still a gimmic, until battery recycling gets invented and a battery replacment doesnt cost 20k+ after 10 years. They are just offputting all the emmissions to china and dumping all that toxic shit into landfill, much worse than any air pollution.

    We will see in a decade or so. The cost benifit is the usual pollitical fudgery.

    • May4th on 09/06/2024 - 12:55
      -1

      BYD is already recycling batteries

      • lew380 on 09/06/2024 - 13:37
        -1

        From what ive seen they simple repurpose the better used batteries. Recycling dead batteies is cost prohibitive as far as ive seen. Also china have a good rep for recycling(dumping out at sea and taking the cash)

    • I like freestuff on 10/06/2024 - 10:21
      +3

      Don’t need to replace the battery after 10 years just because the capacity is down 10%.

    • Euphemistic on 10/06/2024 - 10:32
      +1

      Nissan have said their battery recycling plant isnt operating at capacity because they arent getting enough bateries back. The batteries are lasting a lot more than expected plus people are using them as cheap household batteries bought from wrecks or when the capacity is too low for vehicle usage.

      • lew380 on 12/06/2024 - 15:37
        +1

        Thats just kicking the can down the road, using the batteries entire lifespan in houshold duties is fantastic, but at some point it will hold 0% charge.

        Still waiting for a good answer on recycling batteries. Someone just smack me down already.

        • Euphemistic on 12/06/2024 - 18:01

          Battery recycling IS being planned. Battery factories are being built with recycling plants included. Battery recycling isnt a big thing yet because there isnt the supply of dead batteies - because they are lasting longer than expected. The recycling is planned because old batteries are a good source of materials.

          At present, people are buying battery packs from wrecked cars for conversion projects or household use. They dont end up in landfill even when fully dead.

          Don't know if youve seen battery recycling drop off bins at some supermarekts and bunnings? Bunnings takes tool batteries.

    • smartazz104 on 10/06/2024 - 17:26
      -3

      until battery recycling gets invented and a battery replacment doesnt cost 20k+ after 10 years.

      Most new ICE cars won't last 10 years.

      much worse than any air pollution

      Yeah, the emissions from manufacturing an ICE car plus the emissions over the course of its useable life (plus the drilling and refining of it's fuel) are much less than the pollution from mining materials and manufacturing EV and their batteries plus the zero emission from the vehicle itself, sure.

      • BobLim on 10/06/2024 - 22:12
        +1

        Most new ICE cars won't last 10 years.

        Why not? Average age of current passenger cars is 11 years. Are the new models that much worse? Sounds like a massive consumer law problem coming soon if so.

    • sponson on 11/06/2024 - 21:35
      +1

      The materials that can be extracted from a battery during the recycling process are far too valuable to just throw in landfill.

      • lew380 on 12/06/2024 - 15:34

        The amount of energy required to recycle the battery in its entirety far outweighs the value of the raw materials. Thats the problem. Im no expert, i would love to be wrong, i think the proof is that no one is doing it. Perhaps over time we can figure it out, but until then…

  • mike6969 on 09/06/2024 - 13:08

    I think hydrogen is the future although EVs have a role to play too. Lithium salt mining is extremely damaging to the environment. And battery recycling is complex only 5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled let's hope this improves drastically.
    Batteries also won't work for aircraft and long haul shipping which between them make up almost as much CO2 emissions as cars.
    Toyota is still putting a lot of research into hydrogen ICE which is great to see

    • Sinnerator on 10/06/2024 - 08:39

      Scientology Teleportation > Toyota Hydrogen > EV

    • samfisher5986 on 10/06/2024 - 09:58
      +2

      There is no way Hydrogen is going to be the future of anything for consumers.

      There's plenty of potential for commercial applications where weight is a big factor.

    • Euphemistic on 10/06/2024 - 10:45
      +1

      Hydrogen ICE will only ever be a niche product. They are half as efficient as a hydrogne fuel cell vehicle. Then, making hydrogen wirh electricity is also inefficient. It only makes sense to make hydrogen when you have excess electricity in the grid.
      Engineering explained video on hydrogen ICE
      https://youtu.be/3IPR50-soNA?si=anooNz6qkngs8EXY

      Battery recycling is a thing and will nc e ase once stocks get to battery plants. Lithium batteries are as much as 95% recyclable.

      Lithium mining might be dangerous to the environment, but so is fossil fuel mining, including the cobalt used in fuel processing

    • smartazz104 on 10/06/2024 - 17:28

      Toyota is still putting a lot of research into hydrogen ICE which is great to see

      The same Toyota who couldn't build a sports car without working with Subaru, who couldn't build the Supra without using the BMW Z4 as a base, and who fudged all their emissions figures? They might as well say "We can't actually figure out how to build an EV, so we'll distract you with an alternative fuel source that will never be mainstream".

      • greatlamp on 10/06/2024 - 20:47

        Both those cars are problems of economies of scale. It isn't profitable for Toyota to dedicate a production line to build a sportscar because they don't sell enough, doesn't mean their engineers aren't capable of it.

    • sponson on 11/06/2024 - 21:36

      Hydrogen will never catch on. It's just a delay tactic. Energy density is too low and the bloody stuff keeps leaking out of the tanks. I welcome innovation and exploration of new technologies, but Toyota have had a decade trying to make it stick and it hasn't.

  • BuddhaBoy on 09/06/2024 - 16:20

    Guys, what about the price comparison between EV and ICE? Especially with the mid-luxury ICE brands like BMW, Marc, Audi, Volvo, the price for these brands are nuts. I am baffled that these brands still offer an entry level option with less options and then 'additional packs worth $5k-$10k' for the most basic-mid level options. Why aint these princes coming down? I have people planning to buy an X3, XC60, ended up buying a Model Y, BYD. How are legacy motors going to survive? Is this brand command/arrogance? or is there a way for them to reduce price significantly?

    • greatlamp on 10/06/2024 - 20:59
      +1

      They are luxury brands, cutting prices is a death spiral, they are unable to complete on price.

      They will keep prices high for as long as possible, most have already ceased investing in R&D.

      Eventually they will build EVs with Chinese parts, some will even partner directly with Chinese brands (most likely VW), while providing more luxury interiors at a higher price.

      BMW and Fiat/Chrysler/Dodge entered into a partnership several years ago to build an EV, FCA in particular have sub-par plant management, low levels of automation and poor quality control. I expect they will be the first major to go under.

  • datafellows on 09/06/2024 - 16:46

    Late last year I went to test drive electric Volvo XC40 and considered trade my old car in. Never have a sales guy tried harder to sell their car, even wanted me to keep their car over the weekend. I did return it the same day but had to wait nearly 30mins to get my own car keys back. I felt like a hostage :D

    After reading all about the EV price drops I thought Volvo would have dropped as well but looks like they either prefer not sell their stock, or some people still have deep pockets.

    I'm seriously considering a Tesla now, doubt the price comes down further.

    • Hector on 09/06/2024 - 18:36

      I'm in the exact same situation - test drove the EX30. Love the car. $74k for the single motor, ultra package. Haven't found a high quality small car (it's only ~4.25m long)

      But why would I get that when I can get similar specs for Tesla Model Y @ $63k (and then put the autopilot on top for $5 or $10k)

      • BuddhaBoy on 10/06/2024 - 12:01

        Autopilot is included in all Tesla.
        The Enhanced autopilot is for an addition $5.1k. I think it’s worth it if you drive long distances.

    • smartazz104 on 10/06/2024 - 17:29
      +2

      I did return it the same day but had to wait nearly 30mins to get my own car keys back. I felt like a hostage :D

      You're lucky they didn't crush your old car like in National Lampoon's Vacation.

  • trigomorph on 09/06/2024 - 19:05
    -2

    I dont see the hype around EV's
    everyone i know who has/had one said their justification was im saving x grand on fuel every year.
    But given H
    How much has electricty costs increased in the last 2 years alone. (Fuels gone up too, but i dont think as much.)
    I think the prices are falling here because theyre no longer as cheap to run everyday.

    I know every toyota Camry can easily do 300-500 thousand km's before they die.
    But compared to an EV,
    It just feels like your paying all this extra money to be beta testing.

    The only news I regulary hear about say, tesla for example is they keep wining worst build quality, repairs and replacements.

    Can I take a tesla to any mechanic to fix or am I forced to goto the dealership ans get shafted every year?

    I hope EV's do replace ICE, but until theyre as reliable or as cheap as camry, and the infrastructure catches up they dont seem worth it. (Again just my opinion.)

    • rickdwp on 09/06/2024 - 21:21
      +15

      You seem to have a post full of thoughts, feelings and "I've heard" - Sorry for waffling on, but thought I would share my thoughts on the matter. Full disclaimer, Elon Musk is a complete tosspot and a generally awful human being and I own a Tesla Model Y as well as multiple ICE cars

      everyone i know who has/had one said their justification was im saving x grand on fuel every year.

      Not me, but it is a VERY nice side effect. I pay 26c/kWhr (no solar) and my Model Y use's around 17kWhr/100km which with math is $4.42 - My last car before the Model Y was a Rav4 Hybrid Cruiser which used 7.5L/100km which at a generous $1.80/L is $13.5 so almost bang on 3x - I don't even drive much anymore, barely clocking in 20,000km/annual which is a saving of around $1,800 a year. You can also increase that with Solar and/or 'free' power plans of if you are insane 'free' power at certain shopping centers.

      I know every toyota Camry can easily do 300-500 thousand km's before they die. But compared to an EV, It just feels like your paying all this extra money to be beta testing.

      Every Toyota Camry can most certainly not. The V6's will die quickly without logbook servicing, and even with do tend to sludge up over time. Otherwise generally quite reliable for sure, but what about Hybrid models which make up the majority of models sold in the past few years? NiMH batterys not lithium with no active battery cooling managment, they well almost certainly die before 300kk and cost ~$10,000 to fix from Toyota of ~$5,000 with a mix of DIY and/or specialist independents. Either way it's not genna happen, it'll be scrapped which is the fate of most cars in Australia that get to 300kk or above. Lots of cars engines will make it to half a million+ kms with maintenance but as you get there the maintenance cost outstrips the cars value.

      You could try to say "Oh but Tesla batterys will also cost megabux and go bad" But historically this hasn't been the case. Even the Nissan Leaf which did more damage to the reputation of EVs then even Mr. Musk himself still work. The range is bad but the cars still work. It's pretty uncommon for Tesla batterys to completely fail, probably about as common as you're average new HiLux/Ranger diesel engine to spin a bearing - It happens but it's rare, and after 300,000km if ya Tesla battery is down to 70% well that's fine, that's still a comfortable 250km even on the most basic tier in Australia.

      The only news I regulary hear about say, tesla for example is they keep wining worst build quality, repairs and replacements.

      Build quality is a myth for anything built in China. The US built Model 3's were a bit dodgy for sure, and the Model S/X before it but since everything in the China and other newer factories are built on ground up tooling and production lines it's pretty well fine. For reference the only issue I've had with mine is a rattle in the roof trim which was fixed by Tesla. The Rav4 I had build finish was simply worse, the cabin noise in particular is insane compared to the Model Y (double glazed windows are just amazing). Build quality didn't really have any issues, although their was a persistent whine (I assume transformer) that could be heard in the cabin whenever the car was running on battery only - Sold the car before I bothered getting it checked.

      Telsa certainly are doing an Apple with the repair process though.

      Can I take a tesla to any mechanic to fix or am I forced to goto the dealership ans get shafted every year?

      Well Tesla's don't have yearly services for one so no to that. But this issue of needing to go to the dealer is a very widespread problem that needs to be fixed on a regulatory level. All manufacturers are now essentially locking independent mechanics out of fixing cars due to making the software/tooling required insanely expensive or just not available. Look at BMWs that required dealer visits to have Battery's 'coded' to the car - This kinda anti-consumer crap needs to stop. Tesla are 100% guilty of this as well, but it's as well not "just Tesla/evs" - Toyota use to (probably not anymore) also do this to Hybrid owners by charging 50-100% higher hourly rates for any work on Hybrid cars - Didn't matter if it was completely unrelated, you still got charged the "advanced tech" rate

      I hope EV's do replace ICE, but until theyre as reliable or as cheap as camry, and the infrastructure catches up they dont seem worth it.

      Reliability by all accounts seems to hold up well currently, cost wise with how much Toyota increase their prices next generation Camry will be more expensive then a Model 3. I paid 50k for my Rav4 in 2020 brand new, they're now 60k - 20% increase in 4 years. Which you can just say "oh but inflation" yes I'm sure inflation is why Toyota posted a record profit last year hmmmmmm

      Infrastructure is a pretty amusing one, it 100% needs to be better but most houses have 2 cars and most people seldom travel more then 10km from their house/work so I don't see it as a huge issue. Even with the 50,000 of whatever EVs sold in the past year you only struggle to get chargers in very high peak days like long weekends, and even then it's typically just the highway chargers that fill up. Like if you live in Sydney or Melbourne there is a good chance you will get wherever you're going without charging and then just book accommodation somewhere with chargers or find a destination charger where ya going, it's honestly not that difficult.

    • Exorcist on 09/06/2024 - 23:43
      -1

      every shitbox that puts out black smoke should be forced to be replaced with an EV, EV price should be as high as possible as a punishment

      • Sinnerator on 10/06/2024 - 08:40

        someone needs a good Blatty

      • smartazz104 on 10/06/2024 - 17:30

        So you don't want anyone to own a car.

      • Ozybargdias on 11/06/2024 - 11:28
        -1

        Based.

    • samfisher5986 on 10/06/2024 - 09:59
      +4

      I pay $5 per week to charge my EV compared to $60 a week in a little fuel efficient hatchback.

      Even if fuel prices doubled tomorrow, thats still only $10 a week.

      If electricity actually doubled tomorrow, the value of solar and batteries would be very rewarding.

      • lddv04 on 12/06/2024 - 19:01
        +1

        Everyone forgets the home renters, who are becoming more and more. No solar or batteries for us, so no EV on my horizon!

        • Euphemistic on 12/06/2024 - 19:43

          If youve got off street parking you can get about 100km or more charge off a standard wall plug overnight. Cheaper than petrol.

          A work colleague normally charges their car off a standard wall socket and as needed will charge occasionally at a fast charger while getting groceries.

        • samfisher5986 on 12/06/2024 - 19:47

          Yes but you don't need solar or batteries, that was only if electricity doubled tomorrow.

          Most houses have some sort of outdoor electrical outlet which means you can have an EV.

    • Cluster on 10/06/2024 - 10:49
      +1

      In South Australia if I had an EV I could charge it for just 10c/kWh between midnight and 6am. Solar FIT is near zero, so that power too could go to the car. It is much cheaper to drive an EV than any fossil fuel car.

      The real key question is when will a road tax be implemented on EVs. Right now they pay no road tax, while petrol/diesel users pay 49c/L in taxes. At some stage the federal government is going to get tired of losing money.

      Don't be too excited about the previous 2.5c/km tax failing in the high court. That was only on a technicality, where a state government cannot impose what is effectively a federal tax. They'll try again and succeed this time.

      • greatlamp on 10/06/2024 - 21:14
        +1

        A road user charge has been on the wish list of the federal government for years. The only reason it hasn't already happened is because its 'too hard' and won't raise additional money, with the need to renegotiate the distribution between each state and the federal government. Once fuel tax dries up it's guaranteed.

        The current system is already unsustainable with each new car having lower fuel consumption than the car it replaces, even before EVs were ever imagined

        • Cluster on 11/06/2024 - 15:43
          +1

          New Zealand has implemented a distance based road tax on both ICE and EVs, so it can be done.

          You're right about falling revenue even if people stick to ICE. A typical family car burned 12 to 15L/100km in the mid 1980s. A larger, heavier modern family car will struggle to burn even 9 today.

          At some stage the whole system has to be revised.

    • BuddhaBoy on 10/06/2024 - 14:59

      I can clearly see why you have no idea on how $$ can be saved on driving an EV especially a Tesla where service cost is next to none. Also, all you know is “I have heard”. The user rickdwp has provided a good response.

  • Poor Ass on 10/06/2024 - 09:55

    I'm trying to make my money worth by starting off with eating a whole chunk of meat

  • morebunnings on 10/06/2024 - 09:59
    +1

    I think its just new cheaper models entering the market forcing prices down, while also creating an oversupply which is forcing prices down as well.

  • Brick Tamland on 10/06/2024 - 13:46

    Legacy ICE manufacturers seem to be heavily investing in EV's with lots of new models on the horizon. The biggest challenge for Tesla and Chinese brands is to not become legacy EV makers when all the new EV's come to market

    • greatlamp on 10/06/2024 - 21:19

      Chinese plants will continue pumping out EVs even at a loss, the CCP considers manufacturing a matter of national significance and will continue funding any loss making plant.

      It's the ICE brands that are in serious trouble. They're heavily investing at least 10 years too late with higher labour and parts costs - which they cannot solve

      • Brick Tamland on 10/06/2024 - 21:35

        China can’t afford to subsidise such a huge industry forever. And legacy auto can block them
        By applying tariffs.

        • greatlamp on 11/06/2024 - 13:26

          There's 500 million people in China living in poverty happy to work for $3 USD an hour.

          The USA placed tarrifs on EVs built outside north America so BYD is building a plant there… in Mexico. All the US car makers have plants there already, but BYD can obviously get parts much cheaper than any of them and just do final assembly on shore.

  • Herbse on 10/06/2024 - 20:20
    +2

    If people actually think these jap crap cars are going to take over, they're complete idiots.

    We're in 1985 right?

    • smartazz104 on 11/06/2024 - 16:07

      Man imagine if the Japanese bubble hadn’t burst…

  • Darude Sandstorm on 10/06/2024 - 23:04
    +1

    As someone who does track days every other week I agree.
    I’ve had my share of high end performance cars and shitbox race cars and for everyday driving I’ll stick with my Plaid, it is soo much easier and better in almost every way.
    Still fun on the track but my track days aren’t focused on performance, I just do them for fun with my team mates. I get what everyone’s saying re: performance and track orientated vehicles but thats less than 1% of the population.
    For the general consumers EV’s shit on them, they’ve come very far in the last few years and give it a few more and the tides will turn.
    Some tyres and a cabin filter are all I’ve needed.

    Afaik they’re still overall worse for the environment.

  • Commander Shepard on 10/06/2024 - 23:50

    I have a 2015 Porsche Cayman and a 1991 MX5 as my weekend / track cars. And a depreciated 2017 Renault Megane GT as my daily. Once I see Model 3 LR or Performance for under 20k. And I see that a battery replacement will cost me under 10k to do. Then I will be definitely interested in a EV.

  • THICKnSLOW on 11/06/2024 - 01:01

    EV's have always been overpriced and the public charging infrastructure planning and execution has been an afterthought since day 1, be honest and admit it.

    China has just shown the world effective cost of entry to EV driving - despite it being subsidised by the Chinese Government 'It is what it is' you take it or leave it, nobody is forcing you to buy. However market forces will dictate what will sell and the offering although tainted and quirky and potentially fiery, they sells.

    Weight is a problem I have with EV's, a lighter battery that still offer a decent lifespan and range is my main priorities, so let's see how long it takes for a manufacturer to come up with a model that's right for me, for the right price.

  • quanticism on 11/06/2024 - 01:08

    Legacy brands have to pray for ridiculous tariffs on Chinese cars and for Tesla to not execute on their next gen vehicle. In the meantime, they'll double down on hybrids and hydrogen fuel cells like Toyota to feign competency for a short while before massively downsizing, merging with other legacy brands or go bankrupt. Doesn't matter to their C suite though since they'll be gone with a golden parachute by then.

  • nedski on 11/06/2024 - 12:05
    +4

    I still dont understand why people get all worked up over EV's. Dont want one, don't buy one.. simple. However if you have one, there is no way you are going to go back to an ICE car with the huge cost savings you get plus EV's are a nicer and smoother ride.

    I already know two EV bashers who have just gone out and bought a model Y and a BYD seal because they have massive home solar and their diesel bills were approaching $150 per week. Who is going to go back to paying those prices after you have got used to filling up for free on your solar?

    • Cluster on 11/06/2024 - 15:48
      +1

      It's a culture war thing, unfortunately. Some ICE owners also see EVs encroaching on their freedoms, and not completely without reason. Governments in some countries like the UK have implemented mandatory sales quotas for EVs, with an ever shrinking share for ICE. At some stage if a customer wants an ICE the dealer is simply going to have to refuse to sell it.

      There are many people who can't use an EV effectively. People who have to park on the street are one example. Using a public charger at 40 to 50c/kWh takes away much of the benefit of owning an EV and that's before we get to the time required to charge. EVs shouldn't be fast charged all the time. The golden rule of lithium batteries is that fast charging degrades the batteries faster, regardless of thermal management.

      • samfisher5986 on 11/06/2024 - 16:28

        Its the same thing as leaded petrol or seatbelts. Sometimes you have go give something up even if the alternative costs you more.

    • gfjh567gh3 on 19/06/2024 - 15:21

      Because we are being coerced into them. First the carrot, then the stick. Check out what Western Europe is doing, particularly London with ULEZ.

  • CocaKoala on 11/06/2024 - 14:05
    -2

    was eyeing the Volvo XC60 Recharge, and it starts at $100,000! Even the regular XC60 is starts above $80k. Who’s shelling out that kind of cash when you can snag a BYD, Chinese brand,

    Volvo is just another Chinese brand but they try hard to pretend everything about them is Swedish. Buying a Volvo ev is an IQ test. If you buy one, you fail.

  • ttt888 on 11/06/2024 - 16:51

    Definitely not an EV hater , only reason I'm holding back is price.
    I would love an EV, but will only buy one if a Tesla for example become same price as a Japanese ICE equivalent.

  • ttt888 on 11/06/2024 - 16:53

    In Australia EV will be back in favour if oil goes up above $100 again almost can guarantee that. LOL

    Imagine paying $2.30-$2.50 per litre on a discounted week.

    So the smart ones are the ones who get in at the right time.

    • gofree on 11/06/2024 - 17:17

      If you go across the pond to NZ, the petrol there is around $3, still plenty of ICE and hybrid cars around.

      • ttt888 on 11/06/2024 - 17:43

        But Australiam are more of cry babies. Hahhaha guarantee if we have petrol at 3.00 in discounted weeks.

        It will be front page news over and over and ev sales will definitely up tick.

        Forgot to mention that ev must be bloody overpriced in NZ too.

        My comment is based on if ev price is the same as an equivalent ICE car.

  • JuryWheel on 11/06/2024 - 17:30

    Corolla size hatchback, 450km range, 15 mins charge to 80%, guarantee that it will achieve 80% of its range in 10 years time (and/or $5k for a new battery), 7 yr warranty on other component's, under $35-40k. I reckon if a brand can do this, there isn't really any reason NOT to get an EV - so long as the size is ok for you.

    • JuryWheel on 11/06/2024 - 17:33
      +1

      The guaranteed range in 10-12 years is the thing im most concerned about (having seen the range of a 7-10yr old Nissan Leaf being under 80km). As others have said, at some point EV's just make complete sense (home charging, minimal service costs etc), but if you have to drop $50-60k for a fairly standard spec'd and sized vehicle that may be worth 1/3rd of that in 5 years time, its just not viable for some people.

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