Driving Fine for Illegal U-Turn I Didn't Do - Request for Advice

Lkealii on 08/04/2024 - 13:40
Last edited 19/04/2024 - 10:31 by 1 other user

Hi community, I'm looking for a bit of support on how to go about proving my innocence.

I made a right turn off the main highway at a traffic light, drove down the street about 100 meters, pulled into a drivewayonto the left shoulder near the first dirt driveway (slightly going onto the dirt driveway) and then swung a U-turn to go back in the other direction, coming back to the main intersection so I could turn left back onto the main highway. So in essence, my objective was to turn around and go the opposite direction on the highway, which I accomplished.

However, after coming back onto the highway in the opposite direction, police lights appeared behind me and I was pulled over for an illegal U-turn at the traffic light. I explained to the officer that I think he made a mistake as I had not turned around at the traffic light, but it was his word vs my word. He said he had footage of it, and I asked to see it, but he said he isn't able to show me on the side of the road. I could tell he was making excuses as when I proclaimed I didn't do a U-turn he said I must have ran a red light when I was turning back onto the highway because I did everything so quick. I video recorded the conversation with him.

I've gone back to the site where the incident occurred and record a video of exactly what I did. There is over 40 seconds between the turn at the light, to when I finally make my way back onto the highway. That would have to be the slowest U-turn of all time, so the officer must have seen a similar car to mine or was daydreaming and time-continuum skipped for him.

I've contested via the NSW penalty portal and they have upheld the decision:

"Drivers cannot make a U-turn across single or double continuous dividing lines or at traffic lights unless signs allow. The issuing officer noted you made a U-turn after turning right at traffic lights."

The letter says that if I want the video footage from the officer's car, then I can reach out to the local police station.

Update 8 Apr 2024 on getting the footage

I've contacted the police station to get the footage and they took my details so they could give it to the police officer and he can contact me directly. I told them that he has no incentive to contact me and I'd like to be able to follow him up — and they said I could come down to the police station occasionally but no guarantee he will be there.

I've contacted a solicitor and they said that in order to force the police to handover the footage I'd have to plead Not Guilty. For legal representation at the hearing it will cost me $3,300. The court fees would be ~$65, and the judge has the power to raise the fine if he/she chooses to do so. The risk is I show up on the court date and the officer says the footage is gone, then it's his word against mine, and to me that means I'll lose.

So I think the only options at this point is to either pay the fine and move on, OR self-represent (or use a free on-duty solicitor @
EightImmortals) pleading Not Guilty.

Update 9 Apr 2024 on how I turned around on Crozier Rd
I pulled onto the left shoulder near the first dirt driveway on the left (slightly driving over it but not into it), then swung a U-turn. I didn't actually do a 3-point turn. I did not do a 3-point turn. Apologies if this confused people, I don't think it changes the situation though as I got the violation for doing a U-turn on Forest Way.

Update 18 Apr 2024
I've been a bit lax and never called the Police Station again asking for the footage. I guess I've been avoiding the confrontation. Based one some of the replies I plan to submit a formal letter to the police station tomorrow (thank you Chat GPT). I have to respond back to Revenue NSW by April 25 on whether I will go to court. Once you choose to go to court you can't just pay the fine anymore. I'm leaning towards going to court just to learn how it all works and maybe it will help others in the future. Worst case is I lose and they notch up the fine and fees a bit. If they are unable to provide me the footage I can put that as evidence in court. As soon as I confirm that I want to take it to court, I will issue in writing my plea of not guilty and request the video evidence as well. Hopefully I get a response well before the hearing.

I've returned back to the scene and recorded this video per the request of many. Probably the main difference is my fine was around 7pm when there was much less traffic, so the red light on the way back was much shorter.
<need to reupload the video to a different provider. I was using Veed but seems you need a login to view. >
The Fine Notice states the following:

Offence: Make U-turn at intersection with traffic lights
Location: Forest Way Belrose
Note, it carries 2 demerit points and is $302.

Automotive Traffic Fine

Comments

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 14:20

      I'm definitely seeing the value now of having one. Stuff just happens.

  • brendanm on 08/04/2024 - 14:20
    +32

    Take it to court and represent yourself. You have video of him telling you that he has video.

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 14:25
      +12

      This is where I'm leaning. Thanks for the support.

      • brendanm on 08/04/2024 - 16:30

        All good, it's a pretty garbage situation.

    • HeWhoKnows on 12/04/2024 - 12:47
      -1

      OP has changed thier story some 4 times.
      Judges dont like that.
      Its solid evidence of guilt.

      It appears that OP doesnt really know where they made that "illegal" turn.
      And no dashcam footage to back up thier 4 stories.

      But the policeman has the dashcam footage and surely knows and it obviously wasnt where OP claims they made the turn.

      Would be so funny to be sitting in the courtroom watching this case play out.

      Id say OP would not only be found guilty, but the judge would also double the fine.

    • HeWhoKnows on 12/04/2024 - 13:01
      -1

      LOL and suffer the consequences

      Guilty beyond reasonable doubt and the judge doubling the fine for wasting the courts time and also making misrepresenations in court

  • pharkurnell on 08/04/2024 - 14:37
    -5

    … and the officer says the footage is gone
    you can bet double or triple on your fine this would happen.

    Pick your battles in life… Your chances of winning in court are about as much as winning lotto without a ticket..

    Pay the fine and move on with life, it aint worth the stress…

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 14:40
      +29

      I'm usually in this kind of mindset, and it'd save me a lot of time. But having been bullied in my life, it triggered those same feelings and as an adult you want to prove to yourself you can stand up for yourself. Maybe I can do some mental gymnastics to re-interpret this as bad luck so I can move on without feeling wronged.

      • CurlCurl on 08/04/2024 - 14:48
        +15

        As said above. Take it to court and represent yourself. Been there, done that, and won.

      • pharkurnell on 08/04/2024 - 14:49

        FWIW… I rode bikes for 10-12yrs before buying a car, I know what its like to be done for something you didn't do

    • djkelly69 on 08/04/2024 - 15:02
      +5

      Can't say I agree in this instance - if OP is 100% certain of their version of events, I would go to court over this (although I would also be reviewing the definition of a u-turn and reviewing any signs at the intersection before proceeding and/or handing over video footage of you doing it again!).

      Just be polite but firm in all dealings with the police/court that you did not commit the offence and are innocent.

    • quick-dry on 09/04/2024 - 14:31

      disagree, with a solid case you can win - or I've won lotto several times without buying tickets.

      But you do have to make sure your case is good.

      Of relevance to this case, since the evidence is "in car footage", I've had a ticket dropped by the police that I took to court. When they showed the in-car footage the recording equipment had faults, so faulty equipment isn't within spec, and they dropped the matter.

    • HeWhoKnows on 12/04/2024 - 12:50

      @pharkurnell

      100% correct

      But typically these neg voters have little experience with such matters.
      They neg vote you because they dont like your reply.
      Not because you are not correct.

      Its not helpful at all for OP

  • askbargain on 08/04/2024 - 14:47

    Something doesn’t add up. How would the cop have seen you if he came from opposite direction? If it’s a highway, wouldn’t he have passed you when you’re in the small street.

    • foursaken on 08/04/2024 - 14:52
      +5

      Cop must have been at the lights on the other side, and OP has somehow managed to turn down the side street, do a three point turn, and catch the same green light.

      In my experience, there's always something crucial being left out of these stories.

      • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 15:21
        +4

        Yup this is what I think happened. There is more than 40 seconds from the initial turn at the traffic lights, to when I arrived back at the traffic lights (I recorded it the other day to check). So either it was a new green light, or the same green light.

        • Slippery Fish on 08/04/2024 - 16:29
          +4

          I am the officer who booked you. You have now admitted to using a phone while driving, i will be sending you a new infringement notice on the morrow.

          Before you say you didnt, how did you stop your footage on the highway.

        • ThithLord on 08/04/2024 - 16:58

          Did you do it at roughly the same time of day as the offence? Traffic light phasing and all that

      • HeWhoKnows on 12/04/2024 - 12:52

        See my posts
        One includes photos of the scene (take from Google street view) based on how OP described it.

        OP keeps changing thier story which is a sure sign of guilt.

  • Hardlyworkin on 08/04/2024 - 14:55
    +18

    Go everyday you can to the police station asking for the officer and the footage. Make a nuisance of yourself. Record each visit for your court case.

  • jv on 08/04/2024 - 15:03
    -1

    The risk is I show up on the court date and the officer says the footage is gone, then it's his word against mine, and to me that means I'll lose.

    https://media.tenor.com/_FoKNIe7na8AAAAM/columbo.gif

  • EightImmortals on 08/04/2024 - 15:13
    +25

    Challenge the ticket in court, when you turn up on the day just ask for the on-duty solicitor who will represent you in front of the beak at no charge. Explain to him/her what happened and ask that the judge requests the footage from the accusing party, (the cop). Don't let these crooks keep getting away with it. Remember it is up to the accusing party to prove your guilt, it';s not for you to prove your innocence, unless we are further down the hole that what I thought.

    https://www.ag.gov.au/rights-and-protections/human-rights-an…

    -The presumption of innocence imposes on the prosecution the burden of proving the charge and guarantees that no guilt can be presumed until the charge has been proved beyond reasonable doubt.

    -Australia is a party to seven core international human rights treaties. The presumption of innocence is contained in article 14(2) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR).

    -The right to the presumption of innocence is one of the guarantees in relation to legal proceedings contained in article 14. The other guarantees are the right to a fair trial and fair hearing, and minimum guarantees in criminal proceedings, such as the right to counsel and not to be compelled to self-incriminate. For more information on these rights see the Guidance Sheets on Fair trial and fair hearing rightsand Minimum guarantees in criminal proceedings.

    • jonkvh on 09/04/2024 - 07:55

      I've used the Duty Solicitor twice. Just be aware that you can end up with some really dumb Magistrate's.

    • trapper on 09/04/2024 - 09:20

      Remember it is up to the accusing party to prove your guilt, it';s not for you to prove your innocence, unless we are further down the hole that what I thought.

      Eyewitness testimony from a police officer is all the evidence they will need though.

      • EightImmortals on 09/04/2024 - 09:39
        -2

        O know what you mean but that's not evidence, that's hearsay. If the cop told the guy that he had video of the alleged offence and it wasn't provided then that should definitely be mentioned to the duty solicitor along with all interaction with the police dept. subsequently. The more evidence the OP has against the lying coppa the better their case will go.

        • trapper on 09/04/2024 - 13:47
          +1

          O know what you mean but that's not evidence, that's hearsay.

          Eyewitness testimony is not hearsay…

          • EightImmortals on 10/04/2024 - 06:10

            @trapper: Yeah fair enough. It's still not evidence though.

            • trapper on 10/04/2024 - 07:34

              @EightImmortals: Yes it is. Eyewitness testimony is absolutely evidence, and in many cases the only evidence.

              • EightImmortals on 10/04/2024 - 07:48

                @trapper: And what happens when the eyewitness lies?

                • trapper on 10/04/2024 - 07:52

                  @EightImmortals: Nothing I guess, according to you - it's not evidence right? lol

                  • EightImmortals on 10/04/2024 - 07:54
                    -1

                    @trapper: No it isn't, but when the beak passes judgement on one persons lies then innocent party suffers. Which is why (I thought) the who justice system was invented, so figure out the truth of the matter and go from there. If the cop is claiming one thing but doesn't have the video evidence to prove his claim and the ticket gets upheld it merely shows what a joke the whole system can be. OTOH this is a great example of why people should have dash cams.

    • Frankensnore on 09/04/2024 - 20:18
      -3

      I wouldnt go to court. One thing that people don’t know is that if you go to court and end up losing, it will go on your crime record and may hurt your chances to get a job later.

      Does it worth losing your job chances?

      Having said that most of the time the judge will be on your side unless the evidence is overwhelming. If no sufficient evidence, then you may probably win.

      But the risk is just too great for me.

      • jackspratt on 09/04/2024 - 20:33
        +3

        You don't get a criminal record for ordinary traffic offences.

        • Frankensnore on 11/04/2024 - 11:04
          -2

          This is not true. If you lose the court it will be recorded on you forever.

          Please don’t talk if you don’t have experience.

      • trapper on 10/04/2024 - 07:34

        It's not a crime, so no criminal record.

    • Widget on 10/04/2024 - 01:29

      Australia is a party to seven core international human rights treaties.

      Even if Australia is party to international treaties, do courts even recognise them, or are Judges bound to them?

      • EightImmortals on 10/04/2024 - 06:09

        Not usually. Unless it's in their interests. :)

    • newbo on 10/04/2024 - 09:28
      +1

      There are additional costs just to go to court, right? Even with the on-duty solicitor.
      How often does the judge increase the fee for, "annoying them", by defending oneself?
      I've always felt Australia is some kind of hellhole when it comes to things like court because you have to put down several times the amount of the fine for a slight chance of being deemed Not Guilty and then the majority of opinions about things like this are, "Just pay the ticket, not worth it."

      • EightImmortals on 10/04/2024 - 09:46
        +2

        Not as far as I know, the duty solicitor is free. Yes it might be a hassle but a) people should not be paying fines for offences they didn't commit and b) corrupt cops need to be held to account.

  • ThithLord on 08/04/2024 - 15:21
    +5

    That's horrible, OP. What a crappy police office.

    Do please keep us updated

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 15:38
      +1

      👍

    • bobbified on 08/04/2024 - 16:29

      Almost every cop station is like this. They often say that the cop is 'on leave' because they're too fkn lazy to deal with it. Persistence often pays off in cases like this.

      • ThithLord on 08/04/2024 - 16:57
        +3

        ha ha it was a typo, I meant to say police officer, but you're right, either way

  • Caped Baldy on 08/04/2024 - 15:37
    +2

    This is why I'm in leaning towards the ACAB camp.

    Was it highway patrol or standard police?

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 15:37
      +4

      Highway patrol.

      • Caped Baldy on 08/04/2024 - 16:19
        +5

        They're terrible, a friend is dealing with some highway police bullshit. Have been accused of deleting dash cam footage but admitted fault in a car accident. Since there was a car accident it's gone to court and the cop hasn't submitted their brief of evidence yet. They even sent my friend someone else's private information by mistake.

    • newbo on 10/04/2024 - 09:33
      +9

      I want cops to be good, but I totally understand.
      I had a drugged up naked man talking about murder at my front door and then climbing over my fence and through the backdoor into my house. Was on the phone with 000 and all they were interested in is if there were children in the house.
      They said they'd send someone out now, never did.
      Less than a week later, I came home from night shift and my rego expired at midnight.
      Police showed up at my house a couple hours later to give me a ticket.

      • Caped Baldy on 10/04/2024 - 11:00
        +1

        I'm sorry you had to go through that. It's sad that it's no longer a "service".

      • WhyAmICommenting on 11/04/2024 - 15:04

        Damn, sounds enough for ACA and Tracy Grimshaw!

  • RolandWaites on 08/04/2024 - 15:41
    +4

    "The risk is I show up on the court date and the officer says the footage is gone, then it's his word against mine, and to me that means I'll lose."

    Is that how it works? If there's no proof of you committing a crime, then you are guilty unless you can prove otherwise? That seems like it goes directly against the spirit of the law.

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 15:55
      +1

      Well I guess it's up to the judge. But back in the days when they didn't have video footage, that's how it worked, right? Otherwise everyone would be contesting all the time.

      • lainey13 on 08/04/2024 - 22:59
        +2

        People would present evidence that supports their case. Before footage it would be things like testimony, physical evidence etc. In your case, your evidence would be a google/apple map reading of your car driving history that demonstrated you did a three point turn 40 seconds after your original turn.

        • Woody982 on 09/04/2024 - 15:39
          +1

          Map reading? How do you do that if you aren't using the app? I for one don't have my location on, unless it's needed.

          So I'm assuming it records everwhere you go, if you have location on by your statement?

    • trapper on 09/04/2024 - 09:22
      +1

      Is that how it works? If there's no proof of you committing a crime, then you are guilty unless you can prove otherwise? That seems like it goes directly against the spirit of the law.

      Eyewitness testimony from a police officer IS evidence.

      • CurlCurl on 09/04/2024 - 09:37
        +1

        Eyewitness testimony from a police officer IS evidence.

        The police officer said he had video evidence.

      • factor on 09/04/2024 - 12:37
        +4

        Video evidence of the police officer claiming he has video evidence then it disappearing is evidence.

      • RolandWaites on 09/04/2024 - 14:49

        Then OP should ask for the police officer to submit to an eye test in court.

      • Widget on 10/04/2024 - 01:33

        Even if the testimony is of the very police officer that made the claim? Wouldn't that be no different than someone committing a crime giving a testimony saying they never committed the crime?

  • 7ekn00 on 08/04/2024 - 16:14
    +2

    Just submit your dashcam and phone GPS as records … should be pretty straight forward to disprove …

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 16:57

      I don't have a dashcam. I only recorded my conversation with the officer on my iPhone.

      • 7ekn00 on 08/04/2024 - 17:00
        +1

        iPhone should still have some sort of GPS timeline somewhere …

        • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 17:11
          +1

          I've chosen options on my iPhone so as not to allow Google (or Apple) to store a location history. So I got nothing :(

          • lainey13 on 08/04/2024 - 23:00

            @kealii: Well, you just made it reaaaal hard to prove you didn't do something.
            Luckily it's on the police to prove you did… so force them to. Chances are they will drop it.

        • Woody982 on 09/04/2024 - 15:41

          I have a Samsung, but I don't keep my location turned on, unless I'm using it for an app… I don't really know why you would otherwise?

          • 7ekn00 on 09/04/2024 - 15:43

            @Woody982: They are tracking 24/7, whether turned on or off, it's just harder to retrieve the data when it's turned off (got to go in via profile) …

          • keejoonc on 11/04/2024 - 10:53

            @Woody982: And why wouldn't you? Do you also turn off your wifi and only turn it on when you need it? Seems like a bloody hassle to deal with for most people.

            • Woody982 on 11/04/2024 - 15:53

              @keejoonc: Nah, I keep my wifi on, so it automatically connects when i get home.

              However, I need my location active what? When i refuel if I use the OTR app (if they're cheapest) or when I need to use the GPS… which is not often…

              So why would most people keep it on, when most people wouldn't actually be using it for anything very often at all?

              • keejoonc on 12/04/2024 - 00:59

                @Woody982: I always have Waze running when I'm driving. What scares you about location being turned on?

                • Woody982 on 12/04/2024 - 02:29

                  @keejoonc: Nothing really. Just don't see the point of having it on to drain my phones battery.

                  • keejoonc on 12/04/2024 - 10:11

                    @Woody982: If you don't use the apps that use location service, just having it on won't drain the battery much at all.
                    There is absolutely no need to turn it on and off.

      • Eeples on 17/04/2024 - 07:24

        Did you inform the police officer or the police station that you did not have a dashcam ?

        If you did then that was a mistake.

  • GordonD on 08/04/2024 - 16:21
    +2

    Lodge a formal complaint of misbehaviour against the officer.

    In NSW this is done through the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission (www.lecc.nsw.gov.au).

    • GordonD on 08/04/2024 - 17:22
      +6

      Point out in your complaint that if the officer isn't lying, all he has to do is produce the video that he claims he has of the offence being committed.

  • melbourne guy on 08/04/2024 - 16:44
    +2

    Can you provide a Google Maps link of the intersection where it occurred?

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 16:57
      +1

      Headed South and turning right from Forest Way and onto Crozier Rd.
      Turn around on Crozier Rd (before the roundabout), and
      then head back onto Forest Way in opposite direction (north bound).

      https://maps.app.goo.gl/hFeQWYVM6HuY9TbQ8

      • melbourne guy on 08/04/2024 - 17:55
        +9

        Thanks.

        In my eyes you did nothing wrong. It sounds like the copper has a very broad definition of what an "intersection" is. I would contest it without paying for the fancy lawyer.

      • mrvaluepack on 09/04/2024 - 06:07

        You pulled into the Christmas World driveway to turn around?

      • megaclix on 09/04/2024 - 13:12

        @kealii

        Did you turn around using the dirt track on the left (which is pretty much 100m up the road)?

        • kealii on 09/04/2024 - 16:56

          Yes this one.

      • EBC on 09/04/2024 - 13:27

        Ha, this is hilarious, I know this intersection and driveway very well as there is a great bonsai nursery right next to Christmas World. I've always wished I would know the location on one of these stories one day but I know this one extremely well so that's fun.

        But I agree with you. If it happened as you said and you turned into the Christmas World carpark on the right (and didn't scrape the bottom of your car because the peak on that entry is a doozy), turned around and then turned left at the green light, you did nothing wrong and should fight it. Granted that is a fair bit less than 100m from the intersection but that's not really relevant.

        Shame you didn't just drive right through the parking lot to Waldon road and turn left from there though but you can't really see that you can drive through from the road.

        • kealii on 09/04/2024 - 21:13

          Funny thing is people do U-turns at this light all the time…

      • trapper on 09/04/2024 - 13:52

        Turn around on Crozier Rd (before the roundabout)

        Why would you do a three point turn there anyway? the road is easily wide enough for a normal U-turn.

        • kealii on 09/04/2024 - 16:57

          I pulled onto the left shoulder near the dirt driveway on the left (100m up the road) and did a U-turn from the left shoulder.

      • md333 on 09/04/2024 - 14:04
        +2

        I can't find the current rule for NSW, but in WA the no U turn at intersections rule extended to U turns near the intersection, I think it was 30m.
        Possibly this is what the officer means, that you did the U turn too close to the intersection, not actually at it.
        Looking at Google maps the only driveway on the right is 50m away. Not sure if that is too close, you might want to find out what the legal distance is before going to court.

        • ak47wong on 09/04/2024 - 21:25
          +1

          OP says he turned around at this dirt driveway. Look how far away Forest Way is in the distance: 135m away. He was nowhere near the intersection.

          • trapper on 10/04/2024 - 08:00

            @ak47wong: He had a different story yesterday though…

            Anyway it sounds like the cops didn't believe he drove all the way up there and back in such a short space of time, probably think he did the u-turn immediately after the lights where it's still a double white line.

      • Widget on 10/04/2024 - 01:40

        How did you u-turn right to head back north? It looks like you went through the spacing between the guard rails?

  • AustriaBargain on 08/04/2024 - 18:03
    +7

    Probably easier to just not do u-turns, based on the number of threads here about getting busted for doing it wrong. Just drive in a straight line, don't even turn anymore.

  • Tee Rex Arms on 08/04/2024 - 18:14
    -7

    You sound like a penalty box word video recording the interaction

    • kealii on 08/04/2024 - 21:33
      +5

      I politely asked if I could record him and he said no problem and it was cordial.👌

      • OneFootUp on 09/04/2024 - 08:45

        During your conversation with the police officer, have you explained what you did? I mean have you actually told him that you didn't do a U turn on the freeway and you turned right and the whole thing?
        If, yes what was the officer response?

      • gromit on 09/04/2024 - 14:08

        There is absolutely no problem with you recording. However, I always wonder about exchanges like this, if I was the cop and you started recording It would completely remove any chance you had of just getting a warning or having your story believed, would just stick to the letter of the law and what I believe happened as anything else risks getting on the internet and them getting in trouble.

    • johnno07 on 08/04/2024 - 23:18
      +5

      You sound like a penalty box word video recording the interaction

      Those sure are a collection of words.

      • us3rnam3tak3n on 09/04/2024 - 15:58
        +2

        a collection of words

        In no particular order

      • Minimum chips on 09/04/2024 - 18:09
        +4

        The amazing thing about language is that it has no particular meaning apart from what we all collectively agree upon.

        In this case, we all agree these words mean nothing.

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