Charged for a Landscape Designer Quote without Notice

Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 11:00
Last edited 29/01/2024 - 22:53 by 1 other user

Found a landscape designer online and filled out their online form to request she comes and look at our block. She calls me a couple of days later to find a time and date that suits. This was the only thing that was discussed.

I texted her confirmation of the time and date a couple of days later and gave our address. She turns up at the agreed time and spends 40 mins talking to us. We briefly told her what we were after and she spent most of the time giving us potential ideas off the top of her head. The whole conversation was focused on what she would be drawing up as a detailed design. She takes no notes, no photos or no measurements, just talks. She leaves.

A few days later she sends a quote for $3300 (and $250 an hour additional for alterations) to draw up some landscaping designs; fair enough, she can charge what she wants. Today she sends an invoice for $330 for the "1 hour consultation" she did at our house.

At no point on the call, in text messages, in person or on her website is there mention of a consultation fee for coming out to talk to us.

Am I right to want to challenge the $330? I realise she provided us with some information (most of which I did not like but that is beside the point), but not telling us that there was a charge before the fact has left me with a sour taste in my mouth.

Update 2 weeks later:
I ignored.
She emailed asking me to make the overdue payment.
I politely asked her to provide a copy of the prior notice I was given that outlined the invoiced cost.
She wrote back simply saying it was on her website, no links given.
I went back to her website and clicked around more and after a few minutes found a page that did specify the charge in question. It wasn't in an obvious place (in my opinion) and certainly wasn't on the About, Gallery or Contact pages which are the only pages I visited on her site before I called her.
So the question is now, is it my fault for not finding this page?

Home & Garden

Comments

  • Dollar General on 15/01/2024 - 11:02
    +61

    Where there any T&C’s in the online quote form you completed?

    Personally I would ignore the invoice.

    • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 11:04
      +15

      No, just name, contact details and text box.

      • Dollar General on 15/01/2024 - 11:05
        +87

        Ignore it then. Probably a numbers game from the landscaper and hoping 1 in 20 pay

        • us3rnam3tak3n on 16/01/2024 - 13:12
          +22

          Absolute scammer tactic though. Not conducive to good business reputation.

        • pennypacker42069 on 16/01/2024 - 12:44
          +44

          You can't just charge people without mentioning it first lol

        • Morphio25 on 16/01/2024 - 13:39
          +12

          That's not how it works at all. If you're going to charge people to do a quote, then you have to tell them prior to attending the premises.

          • smoothymcmellow on 23/01/2024 - 11:19

            @Morphio25: I had an accountant/advice firm try to do this to me, came in for a free consultation, didn't proceed, ended up sending me a $770 bill for the one hour.

            What was even more scammy was that they charged partner rates despite having a non partner talk to us.

            I emailed very directly back that it was not discussed, not even a partner and half the meeting was "we will discuss this when you sign up" instead of answers. I cc'd one of the partners and he replied to ignore the invoice

        • patso on 17/01/2024 - 21:58

          Lol

      • Dollar General on 16/01/2024 - 12:58
        +13

        Do you go and see a dr and ask for a quote before the consultation? As far as I’m aware they display their fees at reception

        Your legal advice is way off

        • HeWhoKnows on 20/01/2024 - 17:50
          -2

          READ MY POST!

          It clearly says…

          But have to admit, she should have mentioned the initial consulting fee up front out of courtesy and professional conduct.

          Definitely questionable conduct

      • McFly on 16/01/2024 - 18:36
        +8

        Name doesn't check out.

      • DAGggg on 16/01/2024 - 19:23
        +1

        Oh look, a consultant.

        • Subada on 17/01/2024 - 13:57
          +1

          Most consultants I'm familiar with know that they don't get to charge for time spent on unsuccessful bids.

      • ceroau on 17/01/2024 - 09:33
        +5

        A consultation and a quote are two different things. Before you consult someone you always make sure they're aware of the costs and terms associated with your consultation. The onus is on you not the client/customer, this is standard business practice so if you do something different why would be the client/customers responsibility to know that? T&C mean absolutely nothing if there was no agreement of any kind in place.

        Be better at your job if you have to result to these kind of dirty practices to get a paycheck.

      • joelmuzz on 18/01/2024 - 10:16

        They have to quote you upfront if there are charges for the quote.
        The norm in Australia is free quotes/tenders so if wanting fees for the quote then the business has to make it clear upfront.

        Of course this will 95% result in the customer going somewhere else because someone else will give a free estimate, even if that estimate is a "guess and double it" quick answer.

        OP should politely ask where the quote fees were made clear on the form because they missed them. If not clear then "sorry I wouldnt have asked for a quote with that fee, I wont be paying it, I suggest you make the form clearer and discuss on phone first".

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 15/01/2024 - 11:10
    +18

    Pretty poor from from old mate landscape designer - I personally always ask via text or email to confirm if quote in person is free after I got burnt once by a dodgy printer repairs company who threatened sending debt collectors. Gotta get everything in writing these days I swear.

    • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 11:19
      +18

      I've been burnt before and have been since trying to get it all in writing. I've had a few tradies abandon the quoting process when I try to convert spoken conversations into an email with them stating "it's getting too hard to deal with you".
      It's hard to figure out which are the old blokes who will genuinely do a good job on a handshake and the dodgy brothers who want the ambiguity so you have nothing to stand on when they do a bad job.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 15/01/2024 - 11:24
        +13

        unfortunately most of the old blokes are pretty much at retiring age, or retired for years.

      • Anon456 on 16/01/2024 - 23:42
        +3

        After being burnt once with the old, 'oh no, of course GST isn't included in the quote I gave you', I always confirm in writing the full cost, including GST. Absolute bullshit tactics from tradies

  • PissLUR on 15/01/2024 - 11:10
    -1

    is 'free quote' advertised on the website?

    • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 11:14
      +1

      No.

        • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 12:39
          +82

          u wot m8? Does Woolies have free entry advertised on their website? No? So they can legally include a surprise visit fee when you are checking yourself out?

            • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 12:55
              +18

              @Drakesy: Me entering a Woolworths store and not buying anything costs them money. By your logic, they should have every right to charge me a visitation fee, without notice, when I try and leave without buying anything.

              🍌🍌

                • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 13:03
                  +3

                  @Drakesy: If Woolworths knew that no one would be coming into their store one day. They would cancel night fill, cleaning, lights, staff, security etc.
                  They accept the costs of being open every day hoping that the people who do come in will actually buy something and wear the cost of the people who don't. Maybe think about a boutique retail store if the analogy of Woolies is too hard to get your noggin around.

                  • freefall101 on 15/01/2024 - 13:26
                    +53

                    @Mr BoMBAStiG: You need to start charging @Drakesy for your replies. You've been providing them with a one on one consultation about the quoting process and how it relates to Woolworths and I can't see anywhere on this website that if you engage with another commenter that they aren't allowed to charge for providing a response. $330 an hour sounds a good rate!

                    Anyway, to actually be helpful, as far as I know they needed to provide some information about the price up front, they can't just make it up. I'd follow the checklist here - https://www.accesscanberra.act.gov.au/consumer-rights/get-he…

                    • freefall101 on 16/01/2024 - 20:01
                      +4

                      @Drakesy: What's the MBS code for the medical specialist in your imaginary scenario? Why wouldn't someone expect to pay that? You can also question medical costs if you are charge for things you weren't told about (within reason), questioning the MBS items is a normal thing to do if you get a surprisingly large bill.

                      Landscaping designer is a professional service though? And what does not liking their advice have to do with anything? If a doctor is giving you medical advice they're giving you a professional diagnosis and it's completely reasonable to bill for that, much like if OP had designs done up for their house and they didn't like it, it'd be an entirely different story. But not to get a quote. You need to be told upfront if that's billable.

                      You need to come back to reality here, much of consumer law is about reasonableness. You call a tradie up for a quote, you don't expect to get billed for the phonecall, even though they're conducting a service of diagnosing what you need and how to fix it. It's simply not normal to have to pay for such things unless you're told so. I called up about my aircon being broken a while back and asked for a quote, they said they'd need to send someone out and told me the price, it's up to me to say yes or no then. But if they said "cool, what time and place to look at it?" as part of getting a quote, it's reasonable to assume there's no fee. At the very least it's reasonable to assume $330 for coming out for 40 minutes with zero work done is batshit insane pricing. I was a big 4 accountant and even we didn't bill for doing quotes on work.

            • jv on 15/01/2024 - 16:41
              +26

              @Drakesy:

              Last time i checked Woolies didn't provide a consulting service

              I asked one of the staff which is the best tasting mango and they advised me to buy Kensington pride.

              I can confirm they did not charge me for that advice.

              • Sye on 15/01/2024 - 17:24
                +1

                @jv: You should post that free advice as a deal

              • illusion99 on 15/01/2024 - 22:09

                @jv: Was the mango Australian? Also was it raw or cooked?

              • Munki on 16/01/2024 - 11:20
                +1

                @jv: Rest assured, Woolworths has included it in the cost of other things.

          • sauce2k on 16/01/2024 - 10:38

            @Mr BoMBAStiG: HAHAHAHAH love the Woolies free entry

        • Ughhh on 15/01/2024 - 14:42
          +4

          Lack of that doesn't means it's true. I bet the website doesn't say you have to give them access to your house 24/7 from day of query.

          You should be informed of what you will/May be charged, not what you won't.

    • spoonmugen on 16/01/2024 - 15:44
      +3

      its free unless its stated… im pretty sure she'll have to prove that she emailed/texted u about the fees for it to legally stick…
      cant go about charging ppl without being upfront about it…

      i might aswell not advertise my call out fee as a tradie and just bill whatever i feel like to ppl that i give quotes too…

      but op should check/how much for call out/how much for 1hr etc before agreeing to meet…

  • jv on 15/01/2024 - 11:10
    +20

    $330 for the "1 hour consultation"

    Sounds like a scam.

    • Mechz on 15/01/2024 - 11:19
      +21

      Great job Scooby.

  • hasher22 on 15/01/2024 - 11:20
    +39

    Don't even challenge it, just ignore it and block her.

    • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 12:42
      +30

      The service I was asking her to perform is to draw up landscaping design plans. If her consultation fees were included in the quote I would have no problem paying it if I moved forward with the quote.
      If she told me beforehand it would cost $330 to come out, I would have likely agreed to pay it. The issue here is not telling me she is going to charge for something.

      PS replying to my post costs $5 ex GST, did you want my PayID?

      • AustriaBargain on 15/01/2024 - 14:02
        +2

        Do you want her designs?

        • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 14:05
          +11

          That is irrelevant.
          She has given me a cost for her to create the designs. If she creates them before I agree to that cost, that is on her.
          If I agree to them being created, then don't like them, that is on me and I still need to pay regardless.

          • AustriaBargain on 15/01/2024 - 14:32
            +6

            @Mr BoMBAStiG: Sure. But do you want her designs, do you think you can find anyone else that will do designs just as good for about the same price? Right now this $330 seems really important, but your ultimate goal is to get some good landscaping done. This woman and her fees are irrelevant. If you can find someone else do to them just as good then you should do that. If not, then you should probably tell her you want to work with her but the fee was unexpected and that it should have been upfront that paid work was going to commence. Or maybe it would be better if she didn't charge that fee explicitly, but just included it in the cost of the proposed work if client chooses to commence (the same way most businesses pay for their sales people). But ultimately if she gots the designs you want, that you need, then you'll have to work with her.

            You'd think landscaping would be a popular profession and that you could find anyone to do something you'd like. But I've never owned a home so I wouldn't have a clue. If you want or need her designs then a $330 fee seems like a minor speed bump.

            • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 16:15
              +4

              @AustriaBargain:

              it would be better if she didn't charge that fee explicitly, but just included it in the cost of the proposed work if client chooses to commence

              This is basically industry standard across the board

              If you want or need her designs then a $330 fee seems like a minor speed bump.

              It is a $3300 speed bump if I want her designs!

              • AustriaBargain on 15/01/2024 - 16:21

                @Mr BoMBAStiG: What does this kind of landscaping design usually cost? If you can get the same thing or better for cheaper then you should just forget her and go the cheaper option.

                • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 16:25
                  +1

                  @AustriaBargain: I was expecting $2k from anecdotal information but $3k for good quality would be ok for me.

                  I am going to forget her, I just wanted to check if my reaction was reasonable, hence the post.

                  • AustriaBargain on 15/01/2024 - 17:11
                    +1

                    @Mr BoMBAStiG: If instead of $300 consult fee and $3000 design fee she just charged a $3300 design fee, would you have gone with her? Just curious. I don't think you should go with her, just curious about the psychology of pricing.

                    • us3rnam3tak3n on 15/01/2024 - 22:49
                      +12

                      @AustriaBargain: I think it's more about the principle of getting charged for a service when there had been no agreed terms.

                      • AustriaBargain on 15/01/2024 - 22:52
                        +1

                        @us3rnam3tak3n: Right. But would $3300 have been acceptable to him? Sounds like he would have just paid that if she handled it that way. Work may have already begun if she priced it that way, materials ordered, people moving stuff around his garden already.

                        • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 23:00

                          @AustriaBargain: If I liked what I heard at the consult and she charged a reasonable amount, I would have gone with her. I wouldn't know or care that the full quote of ~$3k included her initial consult or not.

                          My whole issue is the unexpected invoice for the home consult.

                  • arcticmonkey on 17/01/2024 - 03:42

                    @Mr BoMBAStiG: What do you expect people on a bargain website to say?

            • arcticmonkey on 17/01/2024 - 03:41

              @AustriaBargain: This guy has much better social skills than the OP.

    • Jolakot on 15/01/2024 - 13:00
      +30

      She never said it would be free. You didn't ask. So the default is that it wasn't.

      Depends where you are, but this is flat-out wrong in WA.

      If you're not given a price for a quote upfront, then you're under no obligation to pay it: https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/sites/default/files/atoms/fil…

      If you charge for providing a quote, you must tell the customer the cost of the quote before you prepare it. If customers are not made aware of the cost, they do not have to pay.

      • AustriaBargain on 15/01/2024 - 22:55
        -1

        Maybe having an existing business relationship makes a difference, or just B2B in general, but in my experience work is done and then months later an invoice shows up, sometimes you need to hassle them to give you the invoice to pay. Effectively providing goods and services to a business on credit with the understanding that they will pay at some point later. Real casual and lazylike.

        • CommuterPolluter on 16/01/2024 - 00:16
          +4

          In my experience we establish a contract prior to issuing any invoice. At no stage in a business relationship would we send out an invoice for the initial discussion in which we pitched our services.

          • AustriaBargain on 16/01/2024 - 00:36
            +2

            @CommuterPolluter: Yeah I've never heard of being charged to talk to a sales person. Sales people have good salaries, they can anyway, so of course the price is included in the goods or services. But it's not something you directly invoice for. If it was actual consulting then there would have been some kind of sales pitch before it or explicit pay agreement.

            • CommuterPolluter on 16/01/2024 - 10:52
              +1

              @AustriaBargain: Yeah reading his comments sounds like he decided not to proceed with the quote and so she decided to try and wring a few bucks out of him. Doesn’t sound like a good way of doing business to me but it is what it is.

    • bobbified on 15/01/2024 - 13:13
      +13

      Unless otherwise agreed, providing quotes for potential business is just part of the cost of doing business.

    • Spam Service on 18/01/2024 - 11:36

      She never said it would be free. You didn't ask. So the default is that it wasn't.

      If you intend on charging a client for a quote then it is imperative that the client is made aware of the cost of providing that quote prior to the work being performed..

      Charging a mystery sum without any mention of costs is not 'default'. A quote is free unless the client is made aware of charges.

  • Drakesy on 15/01/2024 - 12:10
    -8

    People's time isn't free unfortunately. Before you write her off as a scumbag, this is pretty standard practice in the professional consulting field. She's provided ideas and there's a transaction being made.

    Basically, I'd assume it'd be either,

    1. You progress with your design and her initial consultation comes off the price/is included.
    2. You don't progress with your design and reimburse her for the initial consultation as she's requested.
    3. Refer to the T's & C's
    • ginormousgiraffe on 15/01/2024 - 12:17
      +10

      T's & C's are not relevant, it may be relevant if it's on the same page as the quote booking form, otherwise it's up to the business to let the customer know anything relevant.

    • jv on 15/01/2024 - 13:02
      +25

      People's time isn't free unfortunately.

      Then they should tell you up front…

        • bobbified on 15/01/2024 - 22:11
          +12

          What do you mean? They always do over here! (Different story in the US though….)

        • us3rnam3tak3n on 15/01/2024 - 22:55
          +8

          That would be every time.

        • wallaceff on 16/01/2024 - 01:29
          +6

          Every time! It's called informed financial consent!

        • 82norm on 16/01/2024 - 08:16
          +6

          What planet are you living on?

          • Morphio25 on 16/01/2024 - 13:55
            +1

            @82norm: Clearly a different one to the rest of us.

        • TilacVIP on 16/01/2024 - 18:45
          +1

          Actually, all the specialists I made appointments with, did tell me the cost of the first visit & every subsequent visit after that.

    • wirelesscord on 15/01/2024 - 22:48
      +2

      Doesn’t happen in engineering consultancy, though I would welcome it to cut the bs proposal requests.

      • Name on 16/01/2024 - 10:13

        Was about to say the exact same thing. Standard practice.

        However, there is usually a win rate target that you hover around (different depending on the consultancy) and a budget on the proposal of around 10% of the expected fee and the loss rate is factored into overheads that are included in the charge out rate. So you recoup the quoting fees by spreading them across all clients, rather than hitting a single client with a large $10-15k fee for a quote.

    • THL on 16/01/2024 - 09:52

      Looks like we've just found the consultant.

      I've prepared this comment just for you and my T's & C's are included in my OzBargain profile. Now that I've provided my service I'll send an invoice your way. Cheers mate.

    • Will Mcdonald on 17/01/2024 - 01:46

      The negative votes against your reply makes it pretty evident that charging someone for a quote and consultation without letting them know about the costs is fraud at worse. For a basic understanding, if you went to woolworths or coles and picked all the stuff you needed and there was no price tags on anything. Would you pay?

  • Tomcruise on 15/01/2024 - 12:13

    What do you do for a living OP?

    • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 12:44
      +41

      Tell people what my services cost, perform them and then send them an invoice.

      I generate business cases, proposals and submit tenders all the time, all on my own time. Should I start charging potential clients for the dozens of hours I put into each of those? Hot tip: I do, it's built into my rates that clearly tell them about before I start work!

      • Drakesy on 15/01/2024 - 23:25
        -6

        Yes!?

  • MrMcHairyHead on 15/01/2024 - 12:15
    +11

    Just ignore her and forget about it.

  • garetz on 15/01/2024 - 12:41
    +20

    Any charge must be agreed upon upfront for any quotation by both parties, it is their responsibility to make it 100% certain you are aware the quote will be charged, by not doing so at least they showed their true nature to you so you do not need to engage further.

  • ihbh on 15/01/2024 - 12:43
    +1

    Next time, to avoid misunderstanding btn both parties, ask upfront if consultation is free or not.

    • Mechz on 15/01/2024 - 13:03
      +43

      The burden should be on the person charging the fee.

      • ihbh on 15/01/2024 - 13:38
        +1

        Absolutely, but how long does asking take, versus making a long post on OZB, etc?

        • Mr BoMBAStiG on 15/01/2024 - 16:17
          +8

          I enjoy doing this though.

        • Save 50 Cent on 15/01/2024 - 22:48

          I doubt they’ll need to make another post with the same question every time this happens to them 🤷🏽‍♂️

      • GourmetFoodie on 17/01/2024 - 15:05

        Yes but it saved a hell of a lot of pain to clarify the process and fees upfront otherwise you end up in OP’s situation.

    • Morphio25 on 16/01/2024 - 13:57

      Nope, if the person providing the quote wants to charge to do so then the onus is on them to advise beforehand, so the customer can make an informed decision about whether they wish to proceed.

  • melbourne guy on 15/01/2024 - 12:45
    +3

    If they didn't make it obvious that as part of the quote process that there would be a charge for it, then ignore it and don't pay.
    Considering what they want to charge is 10% of the price to draw up the plans, it might be their way to charge for a 10% deposit before completing the plans perhaps?

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