The VIC EV Tax Is Now Revoked. PHEVs Now a Viable Option?

Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 12:02
Last edited 29/11/2023 - 12:08

As per the ABC the VIC gov't is repaying the (rather paltry) amount of tax collected from EV owners. I know that they need to collect tax somehow, but perhaps they'll consider a weight/distance charge instead so that the trucks and semis causing the most road damage are the source of funds… but I digress.

I'm I vocal proponent of PHEVs as a better, more flexible solution to more economical driving, and I've got the figures to prove it. But I'm very curious if the revocation of the road charge is going to influence Victorian car purchasers to consider a PHEV - especially if a pure EV is not yet a viable option (especially for rural people). I'm not up to date with Victorian specifics like power prices, fuel costs etc so I dunno how they compare - just that the $500 of doubled EV tax (in addition to the fuel excise) now gone is helpful. Any potential buyers want to weigh in?

I do also wonder if there's any interest in me updating my ongoing data with fresh figures, now that I'm up to two years of rural driving… let me know.

Automotive Electric Vehicle

Comments

              • Euphemistic on 29/11/2023 - 18:08

                @Switchblade88: You get 5kw of cooling or heating out of significantly less energy input from a reverse cycle AC.

            • Euphemistic on 29/11/2023 - 18:03

              @Mungulz: But the petrol motor also provides a generator for electricity so you likely be OK as it tries to charge the battery.

          • TiredKitty78 on 01/12/2023 - 03:07

            @Switchblade88: I think you need to physically have a battery in there.

  • exulted on 30/11/2023 - 07:25
    +1

    Bring on the solar powered panelled EV

  • 2esc on 30/11/2023 - 08:38

    I dont have a problem with ev cars.

    Transport solutions need to multiple approaches.

    The problem i have is a lot of people cant afford a new car either ice or ev and may be forced to go into debt to buy a new ev or be penalised in other ways in the future.
    Increasing fuel costs via another tax to encourage uptake of ev cars or a increase in registration costs if the car is a ice this is a real fear some people have.

    The people here pushing hard for uptake of ev cars dont have any empathy for low income earners or regional people who on average earn less maybe need to have some compassion.

    Many cant afford to buy a new car. Many can't afford $5,000 for a old car.

    • Naigrabzo on 30/11/2023 - 09:31
      +1

      Agree with you.

      Some here are also lying with their 700km range claims.

      Also in a bargain forum, people are talking about $76k cars with literally 50% value loss in 5 years.

      The PHEV from MG is compelling due to it's price point though. The price unfortunately has crept up though…

      Question remains whether a cheaper ICE would have lower overall costs.

      • TiredKitty78 on 01/12/2023 - 03:33

        people are talking about $76k cars with literally 50% value loss in 5 years.

        That's the tricky part. Though i guess ICE cars have models/years that come off the line with dud parts to, which people then say to avoid.
        But i mean, their selling point IS the battery. The cars IS the battery.
        If an ICE car came round with an engine that didn't have as much torque, or used a ridiculous amount of fuel compared to what they advertised. Say 10% more for "real world" driving, not laps around the track with professionals who know how to squeeze out the most fuel savings, then we'd have people going off their rocker over that to. And rightly so.

    • TiredKitty78 on 01/12/2023 - 03:26

      The problem i have is a lot of people cant afford a new car either ice or ev and may be forced to go into debt to buy a new ev or be penalised in other ways in the future.

      Ya, this is why i'm thinking if they want people onto EVs, when let's be real, our generation and older are always gonna have range anxiety if not just a big fat NOPE to EVs, then they probably need to sweeten the pot. Maybe don't try and sell them the SUVs telling then they can still get down south easily - hoping to find a charging station, yuck (my tldr, we need 'super truckstops' like in America, but for EVs) But get them into heavily discounted smaller hatchbacks for driving around town they can easily charge once or twice a week overnight. Possibly with fuel discount vouchers of say, $200 a year for that one time a year they do go down south and that's why they will still keeping their old ICE SUV. But maybe after their initial 6 months of ownership of the EV, since you want them to realise an EV is cheaper and easy, and get into the routine of it, you know how we are all 'I know my car' and how long the fuel lasts. But for EVs. Then i'd have little to know fee's, maybe even a credit to the electricity bill - or a cheaper rate from 8pm - 4am for those times it's easier on the grid to have all these EVs charging.

      Then what do you get?

      "Oh i bought one of those cute little electric hatchbacks. It can take me all the way to city and back for a day out going everywhere and i still don't need to charge it. And they give us a $200 voucher each year for the 4wd which makes it basically FREE when we go down south with the kids. And, when i 'go' and someone inherits it, or i sell it to one of the grandkids, there's no fee's for transfers. AND, they'll a credit on their electricity for $50 for basically charging the car each month. I should have done it sooner"

  • LFO on 30/11/2023 - 11:24

    Any potential buyers want to weigh in?

    Any real EV buyer will know any (Australian) government rebate is so insignificant is virtually useless to decide the purchase.

    As you are a firm proponent of those ICE hybrid vehicles any further argument will be pointless.
    Agreeing to disagree situation.

  • SavingBux on 01/12/2023 - 07:12
    +1

    My 2 cents (EV owner for 7+ years & frequent VIC rural traveller with it + charge at home + Tesla=access to reliable/plentiful fast charging).

    1. City driving is a slam dunk EV win. No visits to petrol stations ever needed except to pump up the tires occasionally. Car always fully charged by the morning. Range never an issue.
      Apartment owners: problematic and unresolved. Substituting a weekly trip to a fast charger for a petrol station stop isn't the answer. Legislation likely needed to ensure charging at home is possible.

    2. Rural driving in VIC. Needs a glance at a supercharger map to see where the chargers are located and if they fit into the trip. Unavoidable planning still required as the infrastructure isn't there yet to just get up and go anywhere. "10 minute charging stops" are a EV fanboi fantasy. Realistic stops are 30 minutes since you need a 20% buffer to range above what the car tells you to avoid range anxiety on the trip.
      Non-Tesla owners: still much fast charging pain - limited number of fast chargers with limited plugs and the networks are unreliable. Pretty much where Tesla owners were 7 years ago. Getting better slowly.

    • Naigrabzo on 01/12/2023 - 09:09

      Dude, not sure whether you live up to your username but your points make total sense.

      I am still against the constant 30 minute stops. Even with a Tesla. The main issue is that even if you get to your destination, then you have to charge again for 30 minutes or more rather than just enjoy the destination.

      If you buy a non Tesla EV, get ready for some chargin queue fun in the school holidays and public holidays if you even venture out of your city….

      Last issue is whether one is ok with having a large battery in your house. If it catches on fire, there is no way that anyone can put it out. If you believe you have technology to put out a battery fire while the car is parked in your garage, please contact me immediately.

      Just have a ladder ready or make sure your fire plans/insurance are solid for the house.

      • Euphemistic on 01/12/2023 - 09:25
        +1

        Last issue is whether one is ok with having a large battery in your house. If it catches on fire, there is no way that anyone can put it out. If you believe you have technology to put out a battery fire while the car is parked in your garage, please contact me immediately.

        EVs catch fire less often than ICE cars. No, not less fires because there’s less cars, but less fires per vehicle.

        • Naigrabzo on 01/12/2023 - 09:43

          True, but if it catches fire and it's in your garage. I guarantee that no one will put it out. Your garage will be destroyed. If your home is attached to your garage, it will be gone; guaranteed.

          Have a look at the insurance industry statements on this issue.

          It looks like apartments can't have multiple chargers as there is a too high fire risk.
          https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/electric-car-charger-b…

          It is an evolving field and I hope a solution is found.

          https://stratacare.com.au/the-risks-of-charging-lithium-batt…

          • Euphemistic on 01/12/2023 - 11:33

            @Naigrabzo: Are you worried about your house catching fire without an EV in the garage? The risk is probably not much higher with an EV in the garage. Unless you’re within spiting distance of the fire station you’re house is likely to be levelled anyway.

            They are developing systems to help mitigate the fire damage from EV (and other) batteries. Countries with much bigger proportion of EVs are much more prepared than we are.

            FWIW my model of ICE vehicle has had a recall due to a fire risk from a fuel line not being secured properly. Something like 8000 vehicles at risk of fire.

            • Naigrabzo on 01/12/2023 - 11:55

              @Euphemistic: My friend actually had a garage fire in the ACT. His ICE was to blame. It was put out easily by the fire brigade. Only part of the house was lost.

              He is an Engineer who specialises in energy efficiency. He remains extremely worried about EV fires.

              I am not worried about a garage fire in general with my ICE but it happens due to EV, then your house will be lost. Guaranteed. Doesn't matter if you have insurance though. With ICE I have a chance to put it out. Slim but there is a chance.

              • Euphemistic on 01/12/2023 - 12:54

                @Naigrabzo:

                He remains extremely worried about EV fires.

                That’s probably overstating it. He might be a bit more worried about it, but someone ‘extremely worried’ about it would be scared to go to a shopping centre with an EV charger in the carpark. Someone extremely worried about it wouldn’t have a single lithium battery power tool at home either. Better not travel to Europe, especially Norway either where they are far ahead of us with EV take up.

                Is there a risk? Yes, but battery thermal management and charge controllers mitigate a lot of that. Is there more risk from a cheap Chinese e-scooter or lithium powered toy being charged in the garage? Hell yes.

                EV fires are not something to be ‘extremely worried’ about it. if they are an engineer in the energy field the should rightly be concerned, but know better than to be ‘extremely worried’.

                • Naigrabzo on 01/12/2023 - 13:32

                  @Euphemistic: True. Not sure whether I can tell him how to behave due to his worry or whether I can judge what he needs to do if he is extremely worried etc.

                  However, it is interesting that he is ''extremely worried' an expert in the field and I am not.

                  His house partially burnt down and because he acted fast, he managed to save his family. Perhaps he is still got emotionally worried about these things.

                  it's all jokes and funny until it happens to you right?

                  His emotional state aside, it is interesting how peak bodies (insurance, strata etc) are worried about fire risk specifically with EVs though.

                  • Euphemistic on 01/12/2023 - 16:22

                    @Naigrabzo: But is insurance really worried about it? The numbers will tell. Insurance doesn’t play by ‘feeling worried’, they play the numbers game.

                    Strata? That’s a different story because there is a lot of misinformation and rhetoric from fossil fuel interests swaying peoples opinions.

                    I fully understand if it’s the same friend that’s already had a house fire - didn’t pick that up before. An emotional response to house fires is perfectly normal in that instance, but let’s not let one emotional response cloud more actual evidence.

                    And don’t get me wrong, I’m concerned that EV battery fires are extremely serious, it’s just the frequency of those fires is quite low so in risk terms it’s not extreme.

  • arameda on 04/12/2023 - 14:11

    PHEVs are basically the worst of both worlds. You get the weight of the battery with barely any of the range.

    I had a 2014 PHEV Outlander - it had a 50km battery, and at the start of the experience it was fine - the EV mode was solid for very short trips, and the hybrid mode kept the car at a reasonable fuel economy for its size and weight. But if you drove longer than about 100/150km, the engine barely provided any substance to the battery to avoid fuel use and the amount blew out. We drove to Byron from Brisbane once and the fuel economy was worse than the Mazda Diesel we replaced it with because it was very heavy.

    Adding to this - After a couple of years the Battery had heavy degradation (along with the Leafs of the same ilk) due to passive cooling and Mitsubishi refused to do anything about it. We ended up selling it and I swore off PHEVs ever since.

    We now have a Model Y which holds the same amount of people and cargo, has a 455km real world range, without the bulk and bullshit of a ICE and all the servicing and crap that goes with it. Thanks to the charging network I can get up and down the east coast with no dramas. I can't see why you would bother unless the PHEV:

    • Had at least 100km of range on the battery
    • Was liquid cooled
    • Had a proper hybrid powertrain that could balance out the fuel/ev mix enough (A Toyota Camry on the highway was way more efficient than a PHEV for long distance)

    AND

    • You needed to drive more than 450km without stopping at all
    • Felt the need to have both home charging infrastructure and a need to spend $2.20/L on fuel

    Basically - If you don't need to go more than 450km without stopping, get an EV. If you do, get a conventional hybrid.

    • Switchblade88 on 04/12/2023 - 15:49

      That sucks, but it does sound like a vehicle specific issue - My MG PHEV gets between 8.5-9L/100km when removing the battery from the equation, which is quite reasonable given it's a mid-size SUV. It is about 400kg lighter than the Outlander though.

      I'd be willing to suggest the LiFePO4 batteries are much more tolerant to usage and degradation resistance than the Li-ion 18650 cells, but I don't actually have any concrete evidence to confirm or disprove this theory. The 7-year battery warranty gives me confidence though.

      • Euphemistic on 04/12/2023 - 16:38

        8.5-9l/100 is not very good for a compact SUV. We get that in our full size 4wd. Admittedly it’s a diesel though.

      • arameda on 04/12/2023 - 19:18

        That’s not good fuel economy for a compact SUV.

        The Mazda Diesel got 6.5L/100km and it was a twin turbo AWD.

        • Switchblade88 on 04/12/2023 - 19:40

          What was the fuel-only economy of the Outlander, since that is the vehicle being compared to?

          My reference points are 7L/100km with a Diesel Sorento, or 13L/100km for a petrol Territory

    • burningrage on 12/12/2023 - 10:59

      As a fellow 2014 PHEV Outlander driver, I concur with these observations with PHEV. Having said that, the new 2024 PHEV might have a more durable battery system.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join