The VIC EV Tax Is Now Revoked. PHEVs Now a Viable Option?

Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 12:02
Last edited 29/11/2023 - 12:08

As per the ABC the VIC gov't is repaying the (rather paltry) amount of tax collected from EV owners. I know that they need to collect tax somehow, but perhaps they'll consider a weight/distance charge instead so that the trucks and semis causing the most road damage are the source of funds… but I digress.

I'm I vocal proponent of PHEVs as a better, more flexible solution to more economical driving, and I've got the figures to prove it. But I'm very curious if the revocation of the road charge is going to influence Victorian car purchasers to consider a PHEV - especially if a pure EV is not yet a viable option (especially for rural people). I'm not up to date with Victorian specifics like power prices, fuel costs etc so I dunno how they compare - just that the $500 of doubled EV tax (in addition to the fuel excise) now gone is helpful. Any potential buyers want to weigh in?

I do also wonder if there's any interest in me updating my ongoing data with fresh figures, now that I'm up to two years of rural driving… let me know.

Automotive Electric Vehicle

Comments

  • Gdsamp on 29/11/2023 - 12:33
    +19

    better for the environment to keep an existing car on the road than build a new EV but alas

    • AustriaBargain on 29/11/2023 - 14:17
      +3

      As long as there are poor people there will always be old cars on the road. Australia seems to be doing its very best to keep the supply of poor/working poor high enough to find a use for cars that are almost worthless.

    • Euphemistic on 29/11/2023 - 14:45
      +1

      It’s not really ‘better’ to keep old ICE cars going. Short term yes, but the energy payback period for an EV is around one year. That is, after between 9 months and 2 years (depending on driving distance and power source) the EV will have emoted the same amount of CO2 as an already constructed ICE does in the same time. Any time after that the EV is way in front.

      Yes, for the foreseeable future keeping old ICE running is important for those that cannot afford new cars, but for new car buyers we should be switching to EVs as soon as possible.

      • barratttc on 30/11/2023 - 08:04

        Try towing your boat or caravan with an EV… or diving Melbourne to Sydney without stopping for hours along the way.

        • seannami on 03/12/2023 - 12:37

          Try driving to Melbourne to Sydney in an ICE and not stopping for food or to pee/stretch your legs…. The one time I drove M to S I stopped about 5 times for food, walk, checking out Gundagai etc in a Prius. If you're in a longer range vehicle you'll need to stop probably once, and just plan for that to be lunch. Shorter range vehicles is a couple of stops, sure, but plan for breaks, really.

          And there are EVs rated to tow. Google Ecotricity NZ towing EV, he was a Tesla towing a car and a Polestar (iirc) with a caravan.

      • TrumpisKing on 30/11/2023 - 13:28

        What about the carbon footprint of the battery? On an EV with a 500km range.
        Assuming half it's power is generated from baseload power stations, it will never in the lifetime of the battery will it recoup it's carbon footprint in comparison to an ICE.

        • seannami on 03/12/2023 - 12:44

          https://www.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-evs-vs…

          I can't find the original chart I saw with the stats I'm about to vaguely mention from memory, but IIRC, even taking power generation into account, most EVs will be more carbon efficient (including manufacture and power generation) than a Hylux in 6 months, a hybrid Camry in about 1.5 years and a Hybrid Corolla in 3 assuming the same drive kms/annum. SO basically the only way an EV won't outstrip an ICE vehicle is if you put it through a wrecker after about a year (or 6 months, with the amount of Rangers/Hyluxes etc being bought).

          Add to that that a lot of stations are at least solar supplemented, EV owners often have panels, or are paying extra to have more renewable power bought in by their power companies, the time to higher efficiency is likely shorter.

          And before anyone says anything- yes,the battery fires are worse, but EVs are also demonstrably 20 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE

    • DingoBilly on 29/11/2023 - 15:59
      +3

      This is an anti-EV talking point as far as I'm aware and requires context as it's not just blindly true in all cases.

      In the short term it's correct, but over the long term it's far better to buy the EV. Most of the carbon cost is in the driving of the car, not the manufacturing of it.

      Medium term it depends how long you are driving. If you drive a lot then the EV will also be better. If it's just a Sunday driver then the ICE will still likely be better.

  • burningrage on 29/11/2023 - 12:35

    Money back is always good. Cost of living bites. Yeah, about $500

  • CodeXD on 29/11/2023 - 12:37
    +2

    How do you know someone owns a PHEV?

    • Euphemistic on 29/11/2023 - 14:47

      Beard? Wierd shoes that look a bit like slippers? Cargo pants? Latte?

    • Ugly on 30/11/2023 - 08:23
      +3

      Don’t worry, they’ll tell you.

      • LFO on 01/12/2023 - 12:16

        Not just telling … they will lecture you it is the absolute best!

  • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 12:54
    +1

    When a BYD Seal costs $50k why buy a silly PHEV? Rural people have the most to gain from a pure EV. They have no issues charging at home and drive longer distances than those in cities.

    Driving longer distances is an issue for both ICE and PHEV. ICE because petrol is the largest running cost and you'll be consuming more of it. PHEV because you're more likely to run out of battery during your daily drive than someone who lives in an urban area.

    • Gdsamp on 29/11/2023 - 13:01
      +11

      Rural people have the most to gain from a pure EV

      Takes 5 minutes to refuel my car from 0-100% after driving 500-600km. It will do 700km on a tank at highway speeds
      Does the EV take 5 minutes to recharge from 0-100% after driving that distance? Will you get that distance out of an EV also running AC/heater or overtaking?

      • Devastator0 on 29/11/2023 - 13:24
        +3

        Absolutely this. It's one of my biggest annoyances.

      • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 13:32
        +4

        Applying ICE thinking to EVs obviously means the EV won't fulfil the requirements you set of it. You need to change your thinking slightly.

        Does it take 5 minutes to recharge an EV? Obviously not. Does it take you more than 5 minutes to plug it in when you get home? Also no. It'll charge back up to 100% while you sleep and you didn't have to take time out of your trip or detour to a petrol station.

        If you are travelling more than 400km on highways in a day you will need to use public charging and yes that will take some time (~10-30 minutes depending on what you need to get you home or to the next stop). You need to weigh up how often you would need to do this against the enormous cost benefits of not having to buy thousands of dollars of petrol a year. You may also be able to lessen the impact of having to use public fast charging by working it into your schedule eg: charging during a meal break or a rest stop.

        • Gdsamp on 29/11/2023 - 13:41
          +2

          fine for those who have a garage or who know there will be a place to charge at their destination. difficult for street parkers, renters

          • Euphemistic on 29/11/2023 - 14:49
            +5

            @Gdsamp: Street parkers and renters generally don’t regularly do massive distances. They are city dwellers doing 30km commutes. Rural dwellers most normally have garages or driveways they don’t live in apartments. They often drive decent distances, but not many would be doing 500km every day. They mostly would be able to recharge overnight.

          • shadow7412 on 30/11/2023 - 08:45
            +2

            @Gdsamp: If the context of this conversation is rural people, they almost certainly have a garage (or the space to put one).

      • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 13:54
        +1

        Also the battery degredataion can be an issue. Even if you lose 10% that's significant because EVs only have about 300km real world range. With a ICE you get 1000km and even if you lose 10% no probs, just 30 more seconds to fill up.

        • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 14:13
          +5

          Good to know the EV expert is here. No EV has a "real world" range of more than 300km.

          Just ignore the fact that there are a number of EVs that can travel 600-700km in urban conditions that punish ICE vehicle range.

          • Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 14:17
            +2

            @tp0:

            Just ignore the fact that there are a number of EVs that can travel 600-700km in urban conditions

            News to me, do you have sources for this info?

          • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 14:22
            +4

            @tp0: 700km??

            I think the Merc EQS maybe. But it's $350k. Then you have to line up like a beggar during long week end public chargers. But it's a good car as a second car though.

            The question here is economics though. I reckon ICE will still beat EV for overall cost of ownership. EVs are just too expensive currently.

            • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 14:23
              +1

              @Naigrabzo: A BYD Seal Premium will do it. $60k.

              • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 14:27
                +4

                @tp0: Nah I'd rather just get a hybrid RAV4 $45k. Pocket 15k immediately. No need to line up for pubic charging during long weekends or wait for months to get spare parts.

                THIS IS OZBARGAIN!!

                • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 14:28
                  +3

                  @Naigrabzo: You'll pocket the full $60k because Toyota can't deliver you one any time soon.

                  I agree though that a vehicle with very low fuel consumption like a parallel hybrid or diesel is a better option than a PHEV for those few that an EV doesn't work for.

                  • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 14:30
                    +1

                    @tp0: Also BYD seal is 700km range is it? Come on man. The calculation is 80% of CTC Chinese range. Then take out 80% of WLTP range. and then take out 80% again as you can only charge up to 80% on a road trip. then add 30 minutes wasted every 2 hours.

                    • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 14:35
                      +2

                      @Naigrabzo: Read the link.

                      Also the 80-10% range for it would be around 300-350km which is not every 2 hours. It does charge slow though. The IONIQ 6 or Model 3 LR is a better road trip vehicle.

                      • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 14:46

                        @tp0: I saw these links. These ranges are BS. You realise that you can only charge to 80% during road trips right? Otherwise you will be there for one hour and people would vandalise and kick your doors in for hogging a charging station with 10 people queing up for it. do try them during long weekends and see.

                        • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 15:06
                          +1

                          @Naigrabzo: Considering I just discussed a scenario where you are discharging from 80% to 10% I think you can safely assume I am aware of fast charging etiquette.

                          The reason people get cranky is because it’s actually faster overall to make more regular stops and charge to 80%.

                          It’s also makes you a better driver since you are taking regular breaks.

                          • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 15:59
                            +5

                            @tp0: Nah man I am not buying the better driver crap. When I take a break on a long drive, the second driver is driving. Car can go continuously and I can definitely rest in the passenger seat.

                            My Hyrbid can go 1000km with no stops. No need to hang out in dark spots at night trying to charge.

                            No EV can go 700km as you said in the real world. When they do, and perhaps can charge in 10 minutes or so to 100% then we are in business.

                            • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 16:05
                              +2

                              @Naigrabzo: The list of cars I provided can go 700km on a single charge, just not on the highway.

                              EVs are more efficient in urban driving. In a heavily urbanised country like Australia this is a far more useful characteristic than the highway efficiency of ICE cars. People who comment in EV threads who seemingly spend their entire lives on the road might see it differently though.

                              EVs might charge faster one day, and it might remove a mental barrier for a lot of people, but it won't substantially change the user experience.

                              • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 16:18
                                +2

                                @tp0: There is no use case for 700km but not on a highway. Given that recharge times for both ICE and EVs are equivalent at home, then ICE would still win easy given they are significantly cheaper. Highway is the most important part of all this. Unless of course you have two cars. EV for grocery shopping and ICE/Hybrid for highway driving.

                                The OP for this thread specifically wants to explore his case where there is a rural locations and long distance driving.

                                I would strongly think you are mistaken by this propoganda about the 700km EV range though. Even in urban driving this is very unlikely.

                                • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 16:36
                                  +2

                                  @Naigrabzo: Okay let's focus on highway driving then. The highway ranges of the cars I linked are around the 450km mark.

                                  So for any day, overnight or weekend trip with a total distance covered of 450km or less you don't even have to think about charging. You just leave home with a full tank, do your trip, come home, plug in and go to bed. That covers a lot of people's highway driving use.

                                  In fact I would even wager that the majority of car owners would never exceed that requirement. The relatively low average yearly mileage of Australian cars backs that up. Of course there are exceptions but that's why we have fast chargers.

                                  If you've sat down and determined that the inconvenience incurred by frequency you would exceed that 450km threshold is bad enough to outweigh the benefits of EV ownership then good for you, but that's just your situation and stats would suggest you are an outlier.

        • drewbytes on 30/11/2023 - 09:04

          What a load of rubbish. My model 3 LR gets 400-500 "real world" range no dramas at all without even trying.

          • Naigrabzo on 30/11/2023 - 09:23
            +2

            @drewbytes: @drewbytes The discussion here is about 700km initially quoted figure though. I strongly believe 400km is less than 700km. :)

            • drewbytes on 30/11/2023 - 10:00
              +1

              @Naigrabzo: I was responding to your real-world range of 300km comment.

              • Naigrabzo on 30/11/2023 - 10:07

                @drewbytes: I was actually thinking of the standard range. MY bad.

                I will let the audience decide whether they can depend on such a car that will change it's mind when it's too cold too hot etc.

                OP also has a MG PHEV which is half the price of Tesla LR. From a value perspective, He should save that 30k, get ICE version and just juice up with petrol over 15 years. Both Tesla and PHEV will need expensive battery replacement during that time and will even up the costs.

      • TiredKitty78 on 30/11/2023 - 14:39
        +1

        Plus until we've 'super stations' located smartly between the regular summer travel spots. Where you've got 20 or more 300kw+ fast charging bays - a further 30+ bay carpark, attached to a regular fuel station, cheapish restaurant with a playground for the kids, and all new cars able to charge empty to full in 30 minutes or less, it's just not feasible to push purely electric vehicles.

      • seannami on 03/12/2023 - 12:51

        If you are charging at home, you'll be asleep while your charging. Otherwise charging at work, shopping centers etc while you are off doing something else for an hour or so is also an option.

        Yes home charging isn't possible for everyone in an apartment or without off-street, but tp0 was talking about charging at home,.

      • yamahamoto on 11/12/2023 - 21:15

        Yes it is faster to fill the car with petrolbut it cost double to electric battery. You lose time but you save money.

    • Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 13:21
      +3

      I'll do 500km in a day's round trip for medical appointments, and still not be anywhere near EV charging infrastructure. A pure EV would not be suitable, and I'd have to fall back to an ICE vehicle for these trips anyway.

      PHEV because you're more likely to run out of battery during your daily drive

      A PHEV removes any form of range anxiety that we rural drivers still validly have, but I also get the cost savings on daily commutes. I'm doing 50km daily on battery alone, but again it doesn't matter if I exceed the battery range.

      • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 13:27
        +2

        This thread is about Victoria is it not? Look at Plugshare and you'll find that every Victorian regional centre has fast charging to get you home.

        • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 14:23
          +3

          Will get you home 30 minutes late. :)

          • shadow7412 on 30/11/2023 - 08:46
            +1

            @Naigrabzo: Only if you plan to fail.

            • Naigrabzo on 30/11/2023 - 09:26
              +1

              @shadow7412: No need to plan at all. With a car that can do 1000km just get in and go. and keep on going. It's these piddly little 350km range cars that fail.

        • TiredKitty78 on 30/11/2023 - 14:41
          +1

          Yeah i'm curious, because unless you're crossing the nullabor, a lot of place have some place within 300kms at least that you can charge.

      • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 14:24
        +1

        Agree on range anxiety. Did you think that you can just save on the Plug in bit and just buy the ICE and save 20k immediately?

        Or are you just talking about the MG PHEV which is at an interesting price point.

        • Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 15:05

          I had to get a replacement vehicle in 2021 ASAP, as our current car was at the end of serviceable life. I did the sums and was able to prove that the PHEV was going to be ahead in Total Cost of Ownership, even compared to a secondhand vehicle (of which there were very little during COVID). Not to mention the MG was only $46k then, so there was even less of a gap for upfront costs. $20k is only a usable value comparing pure EV to an equivalent ICE; I had a gap of maybe $5k which made a used vehicle much less of a proposition.

          The vehicle price rises since then have worsened the upfront costs slightly compared to two years ago, but the fuel rising has negated this as well, so I'm still right on target for my ongoing savings. And we also have offpeak power at 11c/kWh, which is about half the costs that I was working on in 2021!

          • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 16:19

            @Switchblade88: yeah, for MG PHEV I think you are correct. It used to be in a unique price point with 7 year warranty?? No other PHEV would be cost effective. Mitzubishi for example are around 75k.

            Lets just hope there are no major mechanical failures. I don't know about MG reliability but we will know in a few years.

      • Bigboomboom on 30/11/2023 - 11:28

        PHEV won't save you money. This is because after your first 50km of EV range you are now running an inefficient Hybrid on highway/country road at over 100kmh, this is not where hybrid shine and yours is even worse because you are now lugging 100+ kg worth of "depleted" battery. Hybrid works well in stop start traffic, on highway speed it's probably about 10% more efficient than a regular petrol. A PHEV when depleted its battery will use 10-20% more fuel than regular hybrid, so you are not doing better than a regular petrol.

        PHEV battery also degrades much faster than BEV, and unlike regular Hybrid where degradation doesn't hurt as much, it hurts PHEV a lot. There are examples of Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV that has 70% battery capacity after 3-5 years and under 100k km, and no it was not covered by Mitsubishi warranty.

        Looking at your figure from your old post, your usage is actually around 5.2L/100km equivalent (petrol + electricity). This is very typical of a normal RAV4 Hybrid, some people actually does better under 5L/100km combined. At around 100kmh on my RAV4 Hybrid AWD with fully loaded (5 people + 60kg of baggage) we do 5.5L/100km, at 110kmh it's 6.0L/100km. If you are travelling alone it would be much lower, there were a couple times I'm doing 100kmh alone and saw around 4.8L/100km but wasn't long enough (only 45 km) to be sure.

      • seannami on 03/12/2023 - 12:55

        You could look at the longer range EVS (MG4 77 for example)- and remember range is often calculated on Normal with mid regen braking on, Driving Eco on high regen braking can often beat the range. Sure, I wouldn't go an Atto or a ZSEV or something for that kind of trip, but there are cars that'll do 500kms in a day with no charging.

        • Switchblade88 on 03/12/2023 - 13:11

          There are basically no opportunities for regenerative braking on a long-distance highway trip, nor will Eco mode make any difference at highway speeds.

          And I wouldn't be gambling on arriving home at 0% battery, so you have to take out at least 10% for reserve capacity.

          • Euphemistic on 04/12/2023 - 16:34

            @Switchblade88: Yeah sure. Lots of what-ifs. Like I keep trying to tell my offspring. Stop working out why it won’t work and start working out how you can make it work.

            • Switchblade88 on 04/12/2023 - 19:35

              @Euphemistic: What was your point, exactly?

              • Euphemistic on 04/12/2023 - 20:34

                @Switchblade88: Well you just said you can’t regenerative brake, eco won’t help, have to make sure that you’ve got extra capacity to get home etc. my comment wasn’t specifically directed at yourself, just all the naysayers in general. plenty of others have said you can’t go far and there will be massive queues on holidays. All glass half empty stuff.

                I much prefer to think that , yes I’d need to charge on a long trip but TBH I should be stopping more often and what’s an extra 20-30min on a day trip anyway. It’s not hard to leave 30min earlier to not have to visit a servo every fortnight and to stick it to the oil barons

  • chartparker on 29/11/2023 - 13:00

    The biggest detractor from PHEV over EV is the novated lease benefits/FBT exemption for pure EVs… especially for those in higher tax brackets

    • JDMcarfan on 29/11/2023 - 13:03
      +2

      they have the same novated lease/FBT exemptions as EV's until 31 Mar 2025, so don't know what your on about

      • chartparker on 29/11/2023 - 13:48
        +1

        Well I'll be damned, you're right: https://www.novatedleaseaustralia.com.au/electric-cars/exemp…

        That said you could've been less rude about it

        • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 14:25
          +1

          Yeah, here the people are in a constant triggered state. HAHA.

        • djkelly69 on 29/11/2023 - 16:43
          +5

          I mean, you gave completely wrong information, and the reply was 'don't know what your on about'… Not exactly the rudest reply on the internet.

          • chartparker on 29/11/2023 - 19:03
            +3

            @djkelly69: I think I must be in fight or flight mode after dealing with an irrational screaming toddler this whole week. Seems to have been rubbing off on me…

  • m0tyrider on 29/11/2023 - 13:14
    +1

    Not sure on the PHEV benefits taxation wise.

    As a vehicle long term ownership might be costly - not sure how good resale value is on a 10 year old PHEV - assuming batteries are heavily degraded but engines are still fine.

    Might as well buy a regular combustion engine car, least you know the kind of resale and maintenance costs, and less upfront costs.

    Depends on usage scenario's but I would say for the average outer suburb punter, probably not worth the costs in the long run.

    As a whole the technology is not there yet to replace combustion engines. The grid can't even support charging them all if we were all to switch. Its not really about the environment because the batteries just end up in landfill and cause more damage to make than mining oil, soooo what is it about?

  • rambutann on 29/11/2023 - 13:29
    +1

    Keen to be convinced otherwise but I really struggle to fathom the benefit of PHEVs compared to a hybrid or EV's.
    It seems like such a niche market that would actually benefit from a PHEV..

    I own a hybrid.. it uses very little fuel in pretty much any situation, but its most efficient when going under 100kph (we're talking 4-5L/100 vs 5.5L/100 when going over 100kph).
    PHEV's are generally larger cars that have poor fuel economy when not used in EV mode.. E.g. Mitsubishi Outlander, MG HS, Mazda CX-60.

    Its definitely cheaper for me to own an EV, but the high cost of procuring an EV is the barrier to entry.

    Surely the only scenario where a PHEV is cheaper to operate than a hybrid and more convenient than having an EV is for someone who does 95% short trips (under 50km a day to allow for a full charge of the PHEV battery) and 5% longer trips (greater than 500km in a day). But even at that point in most situations i'd argue you may as well get an EV and deal with the minor inconvenience of charging and bank the $$ savings.

    Based on your last post, I would say your situation is pretty unique, and is probably one of not many scenarios where a PHEV makes sense over hybrid or EV..

    Just a generic example as to why I couldn't fathom a PHEV, I live in Melbourne - if I were to go on a trip to the country (Bendigo, Sale, Ballarat, Torquay or Mornington) - for simplicity, lets call this a 320km round trip. I'm going to try and use rounded figures.
    In your MG example i'd burn through the battery in about 70km and have 250km on fuel. Cost of fuel at 9.5L/100 at $2 a litre is $47.50. Lets assume 13kW used in electricity, so $2.50 of electricity, so $50 for the round-trip.
    A hybrid using 6L/100 (i'm using fuel consumption of a larger less efficient hybrid to be fair.. a Camry would use 4L, a Lexus NX300H would use 6L) would cost $38.40 in fuel.
    Meanwhile an EV would easily make the return trip and cost 2-fifiths of f-all.

    If I extend that trip to be a trip to Mildura, PHEV makes even less sense because the gap widens even more. And even on a trip like that I would want to stop at least once, at which point an EV would be a cheap and viable option. And if I didn't want to stop a hybrid would be more beneficial.

    When it comes to stop-start in the city, i'd just get an EV…

    PHEV's just feel like an incredibly niche market.. its really only for people that take lots of very short trips and then just all of a sudden head out to a remote location with no charging infrastructure….

    • Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 14:07
      +1

      your situation is pretty unique, and is probably one of not many scenarios where a PHEV makes sense over hybrid or EV

      True, I'm probably in the best position to capitalise on a PHEV… But I'd also suggest everyone else rural is likely in a similar situation with similar ratios of short to long trips. If you're in the city then yeah, a pure EV generally makes more sense. But I'd disagree that it's 'incredibly niche' as there is a large proportion of the country that doesn't live in a capital city.

      A mild hybrid like the Rav4 should have flooded the market years ago, but since Toyota couldn't keep up with supplies of all their hybrids it's skewed the ownership - especially when capital costs were significantly lower (for me) for a PHEV in 2021, not to mention actually available in the country.

      • AustriaBargain on 29/11/2023 - 14:19

        The waiting list for a new Rav4 hybrid is still years innit?

      • djkelly69 on 29/11/2023 - 15:19
        +2

        I own a PHEV (hi CodeXD) but live in a capital city, so definitely don't think it is only rural or regional that will see benefits.

        Only owned it less than 6 months, but our usage is the (apparently niche) 90/95% short trips to work/school/shops/etc, and the rest longer interstate type trips. As I would imagine is the case for most families, the longer trips are generally on long weekends and school holidays, so I don't think the 'minor inconvenience' of needing to charge at those times would be minor at all.

        If you are basically forced to travel on historically busy travel days, anecdotally at least, the situation at charging stations on major thoroughfares is not going to be as easy as just turning up and plugging in for 30 minutes. I am aware there are apps you can use to make the situation better, etc, but for us it was just one extra (and quite frequent) stress that we chose to avoid on our holidays. Assuming charging infrastructure has improved significantly the next time we get a 'family' car, I would definitely consider going full EV.

        HEVs could obviously offer some similar benefits, but them not being eligible for the novated leasing/FBT benefits was the killer for me.

        • rambutann on 29/11/2023 - 15:37
          +2

          Interesting insight. As I said, i'd be keen to be convinced - you make some valid points. It would be shitty to deal with charging when travelling with family.

          • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 16:22
            +1

            @rambutann: It gets old fast. Imagine long week end coming back from a trip then needing to line up for hours because a charge point was broken. Delayed for 2 hours etc etc.

            It's fine if you have one ICE and one EV though.

            • Euphemistic on 01/12/2023 - 05:32

              @Naigrabzo: Have you actually had to do this? Or are you just going off what you’ve read on the internet?

              • Naigrabzo on 01/12/2023 - 09:01
                +1

                @Euphemistic: My friend has Volvo XC 40 RECHARGE! Twin whatever. He paid 80k for it. He drove it to melbourne. With a load in the car, he was only getting 300km. He had to wait for 1.5 hours for a charge once because only one charger was working and the other had a line on it. Even if you bought a 350k Merc EQS it would have been the same. Line up and apparently you need to have a 1.5 hours to become a good driver…. ;) Make matters worse, the phool had to hunt around for charging points even after he got to Melbourne.

                I drove with with him to Melbourne and drove non stop in my RAV4 without any refuelling stops. Just get another person to drive when you need to rest. This is not rocket science.

                These Tesla warriors talking about 700km are lying. No electric car has 700km range especially when loaded with people and luggage etc with high or low environmental temps/AC etc etc. At most most of these cars are around 300-400 at most at 100% but only 80% once you start the trip because you can't really afford to stay 1 hour to charge to 100% therefore only getting to 80%.

                • Euphemistic on 01/12/2023 - 09:21

                  @Naigrabzo:

                  He had to wait for 1.5 hours for a charge once

                  So like ONCE! Oh the humanity. More and more chargers getting out in and this will become far less of a problem.

                  I get it, 300km range on a highway trip does mean you’ll need to charge at some point but with more infrastructure you’ll have more choices when and where to charge.

                  • Naigrabzo on 01/12/2023 - 09:40

                    @Euphemistic: I think the point is that you can't really predict this especially if you rely on unreliable public charger infrastructure. More chargers won't solve this as it would just mean more chargers will be broken/vandalised.

                    If that single charger was broken he would need to be towed.

                    If you are happy with this, then of course this is fine.

                    Tesla chargers are an exeption though. Which is why I think it is the only EV feasible currently in Australia.

            • seannami on 03/12/2023 - 12:59

              @Naigrabzo: Unless you have a power point in your garage, or have the ability to get a wall charger in the garage (yes, not everyone can do this, but you are assuming everyone with an EV public charges). IF you can charge at home, take 2 minutes to plug in when you park, go to bed, car charged in the morning (if you 90% short drive, which is my use case and djkelly's, you can charge once or twice a week without issue in a base ZSEV, less in other makes and models)

              • Naigrabzo on 04/12/2023 - 09:17

                @seannami: True with the home charging; I think most people understand this. It is still a mild issue if you want to go on a trip during the long weekend though. It is fine if you have one EV and one Diesel/Petrol with real world range though.

        • TiredKitty78 on 01/12/2023 - 02:41
          +1

          You basically hit the nail on the head on situations where it's just not feasible yet, like your summer vacations. Unless you got the EV version of major truck stops with 20+ charge in 30 minutes or less bays - i'm imagining an intercom/beeper/app that tells you when you've charged - plus 50 places to park, and a restaurant and playground, full EV just isn't possible just yet.

          None of this open the gate, up on the hill where no one can see you, oh and the left one ain't working shit i see on PlugShare.
          You'd need a real station, that'll wind up almost being its own attraction, like those giant truck stops in America.

          And honestly, if they wanted us out and about spending our touristy money, charging should probably be free November - February 1st. Just have a website where you register your car and its Rego, and get two vouchers for charging each month.

    • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 14:47

      I agree. You need to be high income earner 180k plus, have one EV for going shopping and one ICE/hybrid for road tripping. :)

  • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 13:55
    +2

    Go with whatever saves you money now. ICE is probably still better.

    If you save 20k on a ICE vehicle now, you can flog it in 10 years for 60% of price and get a new EV with solid state battery or whatever. Current EVs will be worthless in 10 years.

  • JIMB0 on 29/11/2023 - 14:11

    They should bring back the registration discount for hybrids.

  • Euphemistic on 29/11/2023 - 14:51

    PHEVs are a short term solution. They won’t last. Might make sense if you currently have a shorter than PHEV electric range commute and a regular weekend that requires 200km drive. But mostly an EV is a better option.

    • tp0 on 29/11/2023 - 16:53
      +2

      200km is a walk in the park for almost every EV on the market. Your regular weekend trip would need to be 500km+ for PHEV to make sense.

      One of the posters above talked about regularly holidaying interstate and travelling by car. That's about the only use case and it's not a common one. Most Australians fly interstate.

      • Euphemistic on 29/11/2023 - 17:32
        +1

        You’re right. Unless your regular one way trip is more than 80% the range of an EV, get the EV.

        And by regular I mean at least monthly. Otherwise if your only doing long distances twice a year, change your habits to include some comfort stops to recharge on your trip.

      • TiredKitty78 on 01/12/2023 - 03:03

        Yup. Yanchep to Busselton is let's say with a couple stops 300kms.
        Most full EVs do that - at least - EASILY.
        So sure, if you like to bush bash out woop woop once a month, keep your ICE, maybe even a PHEV. And save the extra $20 or so bucks you save in fuel each week and put it aside for those couple of jerrys cans when you do go out country.
        I do think PHEV have their place. Especially when you consider it doesn't have to be all electric or all ICE engine, you can use hybrid modes and get a nice 3L per 100 kms, and that electric mode will take you farther.

        Though EVs in general are very expensive, might be good to see how they come down in price in 5 years or so.

  • Mungulz on 29/11/2023 - 15:38

    The other problem no one seems to be considering with PHEVs is the charge cycles and battery wear. Even though it's a small 10-15KWH battery I bet you its still going to cost $10,000+ to replace the stupid thing. And you're smashing it with A CHARGE CYCLE A DAY? (under the supposed "ideal" conditions in which they make sense to own")

    At least with an EV it is only copping a charge cycle every week or two weeks for people who do 10,000km a year.

    • Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 15:49
      +1

      I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the minimal reduction in range/capacity over two years. The car was originally rated for 63km (obviously urban km's) and it's now down to 62km. Other owners' MG PHEVs of a similar age were down to 60km, so 5% reduction over 24 months which sounds quite reasonable. MG also has their 7-year warranty that includes the battery so if it does die I'm fine.

      Maybe also because I'm not doing heavy accelerations, and only charging at 10-15A (3kW), and not 200A like an EV at a fast-charging station; that sounds like an easy way to degrade your battery by comparison.

      • Mungulz on 29/11/2023 - 15:56

        To each their own. I don't see a point in owning a car with an expensive and almost useless battery pack. Thats an extra 150KG of weight being carried around, and until manufacturers can start charging fair and reasonable prices for replacement, it doesn't make sense. All well and good having a 7 year warranty, but if the replacement cost is $15K then thats a car designed to last 7 years. Resale value after that point will be minimal.

        A hybrid battery is $3500-4000 from Toyota, and cheap to rebuild outside of that network, and halves city fuel consumption.

        • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 16:23
          +3

          I was told Toyota Rav4 hybrid battery was $2500 and the warranty is actually for 10 years.

        • Euphemistic on 29/11/2023 - 17:34
          +1

          To each their own. I don't see a point in owning a car with an expensive and almost useless battery pack.

          If that’s your reason don’t try and justify it with unsubstantiated rubbish about battery degradation and $10k replacement packs.

      • Naigrabzo on 29/11/2023 - 16:24

        Can the car run if you take the high voltage battery out? For example end of life, can't be bothered to replace it etc etc??

        • Mungulz on 29/11/2023 - 16:31
          +1

          In short, no. I'm fairly sure the air con is on the HV system. Not to mention the error lights, warnings, etc and the car probably wouldn't run right.

        • Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 16:35

          Should be fine - it's explicitly designed to seamlessly switch between EV and hybrid modes, so if the battery runs flat the petrol motor is automatically turned on. If the battery was dead/disconnected etc then it would be petrol only as well. All the accessories/lights and so on are powered from the 12v battery.

          I'm also working on the consideration that in 5 years' time there will have been plenty of reverse-engineered MGs so it'll be easier to replace/install battery packs in the future - and since they're commodity LiFePO4 batteries they are able to be easily sourced and replaced. It's not that much different from working with a remote control car; you'd need to take the same precautions but the fundamentals are nearly identical.

          • Mungulz on 29/11/2023 - 17:07

            @Switchblade88: As I mentioned above it's very likely that the aircon runs on the HV system. Otherwise you wouldn't have aircon in EV mode. You're not getting 5kw of cooling from a 12v battery.

            • Switchblade88 on 29/11/2023 - 17:42

              @Mungulz: I wouldn't think you'd get 5kW of cooling from a car's AC, but you do make a valid point!

              I'm going to experiment running the car with the HV battery disconnected and see what it does. It's easy to trigger if you attempt to start the car while the charging cable is still plugged in, so I'll see what happens in terms of warning lights and cooling etc.

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