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[VIC] HECS Fee Paid for Students Who Agree to Teach in Secondary Government School for 2 Years after Grad @ Victoria Government

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[VIC] HECS Fee Paid for Students Who Agree to Teach in Secondary Government School for 2 Years after Grad @ Victoria Government
Go to Deal
HamBoi69 on 03/10/2023 - 06:57 vic.gov.au (2346 clicks)
Last edited 04/10/2023 - 13:01 by 1 other user

After the last deal post was unpublished for being too early, and given today marks 90 days until January 1st next year, I figure we can finally share this bargain.

From media release

An investment of up to $93.2 million will provide new scholarships to support teaching degree students with the cost of studying and living – joining the Labor Government’s Free Nursing initiative, which began this year to boost the state’s pipeline of healthcare workers.

The scholarships will be available to all students who enrol in secondary school teaching degrees in 2024 and 2025, with final payments if they then work in Victorian government schools for two years after they graduate – supporting around 4,000 future teachers each year.

The total scholarship for students who complete their studies and then choose to work in government secondary schools will match the HELP fees charged by the Commonwealth Government for Commonwealth Supported Places – $18,000 for a four-year undergraduate program or $9,000 for two years of postgraduate study.

Enjoy!

Education Scholarship Undergraduate

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closed Comments

      • piston3461 on 03/10/2023 - 08:43
        +12

        They don’t.

        Per student state schools get around $20k and private schools get around $13k.

        • smartazz104 on 03/10/2023 - 09:04
          +35

          I'm surprised private schools get anything tbh…

          • OzzyBrak on 03/10/2023 - 11:41
            +2

            @smartazz104: Why? Parents who send their children to private schools pay taxes.

            • SupeNintendoChalmers on 03/10/2023 - 13:49
              +17

              @OzzyBrak:

              @smartazz104: Why? Parents who send their children to private schools pay taxes.

              illogical statement, does that mean that "private" schools that charge $30,000 + PA should also get more sweet sweet welfare money from the government?

              Good rule of thumb, if a school has an Olympic-sized regulation swimming pool, maybe they shouldn't suckle on the teat of government and stop being welfare queens?

              • OzzyBrak on 03/10/2023 - 14:52
                +4

                @SupeNintendoChalmers: It shouldn't reflect what private schools charge at all, it should be on a per child basis for Government funding for education.

                • SupeNintendoChalmers on 03/10/2023 - 14:58
                  +18

                  @OzzyBrak: In a utopia, yes agree. But in reality, "private" schools further entrench the rich\poor divide.

                  The term private school is a massive misnomer, if a non-government school gets even a dollar from the government it should be called a 'Non-Government Subsidised School'

                  • OzzyBrak on 03/10/2023 - 15:06
                    -8

                    @SupeNintendoChalmers: I've got no interest in what we call them. We attempt to address inequity via progressive taxation, where those with more pay more. As for health and education we shouldn't start deciding who is worthty of payment. Should we be checking taxable income at our hospitals and sending people away if it exceeds some threhold? Either way Ozb isn't the right forum for these debates, so I'm opting out here.

                    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 03/10/2023 - 15:39
                      +16

                      @OzzyBrak: actually we have a regressive taxation system imho, On the surface, yes people with higher incomes pay more tax, but in reality that have the ability to reduce their payable tax to almost nothing via several levers, such as

                      • Negatively gearing properties
                      • Private health insurance- effectively jumping the queue
                      • Creation of trusts.

                      The latter in particular I've seen wealthy Partners reduce their taxable income to 19cents in the dollar, but in any case I'll desist from debating with you mate. Sorry things got a bit hot.

              • CommuterPolluter on 03/10/2023 - 22:46
                -2

                @SupeNintendoChalmers: St Hildas etc are the exception not the rule. Get a grip.

                • SupeNintendoChalmers on 03/10/2023 - 22:57
                  +1

                  @CommuterPolluter: https://www.futurityinvest.com.au/insights/futurity-blog/202…
                  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TmEIgZGWQdQ20JQwpBgJ7AiB3PN…

                  AVERAGE TOTAL COST OF EDUCATION OVER 13 YEARS OF SCHOOLING BY SCHOOL TYPE*

                  *The Federal Government provides 80%+ funding for private schools.

                  Government schools $84,554

                  Catholic schools $173,706

                  Independent schools $288,880

                  Considering government handouts to "private" schools is running double the rate of public schools, I think its government and private school parents who need to get a grip and pay their way.

                  https://saveourschools.com.au/funding/wealthy-victorian-priv….

                  Penleigh & Essendon Grammar School is the top over-funded school. Its cumulative over-funding for 2022 to 2028 will amount to $23.4 million. The school is currently funded at 115% of its Schooling Resource Standard (SRS) by the Commonwealth Government instead of the target 80%. The Victorian Government is responsible for the other 20% of the SRS target, but its current funding of individual private schools and systems is not divulged

                  like I said earlier, welfare queens.

            • davowan on 03/10/2023 - 14:57
              +10

              @OzzyBrak: What an illogical statement. I don't have kids, should I make a big fuss about the taxes that I pay that go towards child services? Taxes are for public goods, I don't want my taxes to go to schools that teach their kids that my existing is a sin; division of church and state would be nice.

            • TrainedMonkey on 03/10/2023 - 15:26
              +3

              @OzzyBrak: Sure, and if they'd like to see value for their children's education from tax dollars, they're welcome to send them to public schools.

            • Bargain Slut on 03/10/2023 - 22:14

              @OzzyBrak: And?

        • quink on 03/10/2023 - 09:08
          +12

          In 2023, recurrent funding for schools is estimated to total $27.3 billion. This includes $10.6 billion to government schools, $9.3 billion to Catholic schools and $7.4 billion to independent schools.

          Straight from a Federal Government website.

          • ProfessorBargain on 03/10/2023 - 10:46
            +1

            @quink: That's federal funding alone. States also fund schools, with the spending directed predominately to public schools.

          • furythree on 03/10/2023 - 16:15
            +1

            @quink: so ur telling me our tax dollars are being spent more on private schools than public schools

        • JeffOz on 03/10/2023 - 09:17
          +12

          state schools should be getting that extra $13K per student. /shrugs

          • ProfessorBargain on 03/10/2023 - 11:04
            +2

            @JeffOz: That would probably force a lot of the lower-fee independent schools to close, and put more of a strain on the public system.

            • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 11:46
              +2

              @ProfessorBargain:

              That would probably force a lot of the lower-fee independent schools to close, and put more of a strain on the public system.

              Yeah it's basic economics, something that is obviously missing in public schools 😁

              • SupeNintendoChalmers on 03/10/2023 - 13:52
                +4

                @1st-Amendment: On the contrary, government welfare, I mean money to "private" schools means that they are not operating in the real world. Maybe we should cut welfare to these queens and let the market sort itself out.

                • lunchbox99 on 03/10/2023 - 14:15
                  +3

                  @SupeNintendoChalmers: I think your logic is backwards. The government would view private schools as delivering a service at lower overall cost (to the taxpayer). So the government wouldn't want those schools to cease to exist. It will just cost them more money.

                  • SupeNintendoChalmers on 03/10/2023 - 14:19
                    +3

                    @lunchbox99: No it's not. If delivery is lower cost as you mentioned, then why does the Gonski report confirm that private spending is growing at the double the rate of the public schools plus also asking parents for tens of thousands of dollars?

                    • ProfessorBargain on 04/10/2023 - 13:12
                      +1

                      @SupeNintendoChalmers: The delivery cost (from taxpayer funding) for private schools is lower, hence why equitable (or even lower) increases in government funding per student would result in a greater percentage growth for private school funding.

                      It's like when it's stated that older women are the fastest growing homeless demographic, because there's far fewer of them to begin with in the homeless population.

            • floorpie on 03/10/2023 - 13:47
              +1

              @ProfessorBargain: Then govt could use those locations for public schools. I don't really see the downside here

              • ProfessorBargain on 04/10/2023 - 13:15

                @floorpie: If the goal was to reduce taxpayer spending, then converting those students to the public system would increase public spending.

                If the goal was to eliminate the lower-fee independent schools from existence, then it would be effective.

      • Be careful on 03/10/2023 - 09:22
        +7

        Been reading the socialists in the age too much.
        The reason they get a grant per student is they save the gov money but not needing to provide public schools for these studrnts

        • davowan on 03/10/2023 - 15:00
          +2

          lol ok. How about the other countries where private schools don't get money from government? This argument is so illogical, because that same money that they are saving as you say) could be invested in a public school existing in place of the private school without having to pay exorbitant amounts of money to principals and olympic sized pools.

          • ProfessorBargain on 04/10/2023 - 13:37
            +1

            @davowan: Partially funding students attending the lower-fee independent schools allows for those schools to stay afloat.

            Were that funding to be taken away, and the students from those schools were to enter the public system, then the funding requirements per student would increase dramatically.

            A vast majority of independent schools are religious in nature, and aren't the ones that cost astronomical amounts, or have luxurious amenities.

            I agree that the government should cut the funding for the schools that already cost 10s of thousands per year, as the added expense would easily be within the capacity of those parents to pay.

            The same goes for people on exorbitant salaries getting daycare subsidies.

            • davowan on 05/10/2023 - 11:38
              -1

              @ProfessorBargain: Ideally, I will like my tax money to not go to private organisations that think my existence is sin and campaign constantly (as of recently as the last Victorian election) to have the right to fire me for who I chose to marry. So, in my ideal scenario, zero government funding for non-public schools. Teach your religion at Church, not public schools. Same goes for private schools that are just perpetuating socioeconomic class divisions.

              • ProfessorBargain on 05/10/2023 - 16:16

                @davowan: Presumably the funding would be intended to go to aspects of education that weren't related to religion.

                But that's a completely different discussion as to what was being had anyhow, that not funding the lower-fee independent schools would increase spending per student. Which it would, as it would lead to the lower-fee schools shutting down.

                I of course agree that people shouldn't be able to be fired over their orientation, and thankfully it looks like that's currently illegal (though employers will just look for workarounds).

                I don't want my tax money going towards subsidising the inherent cruelty of animal agriculture, as well as a host of other things. But that's something out of my control.

        • nathand on 04/10/2023 - 11:49
          -1

          I understand the reasons they give for it, I don't have to agree with it.

          Its a choice to put kids into private schools and not only do they get a lot of funding from federal and state governments they also get fees from the parents. There should be some money for taking kids away from public schools but it should be way less as its the parents choice.

          I as a taxpayer say we should give a lot less money to private schools at a minimum, I would prefer to get rid of them.

        • RedSky on 04/10/2023 - 18:59

          Should private hospitals be subsidized per treatment because they are providing health care not needed to be provided by public hospitals?

          • nathand on 05/10/2023 - 09:44

            @RedSky: Should people who buy the lowest private health cover required just to avoid paying the medicare levy be denied care in the public system?

          • pndl on 08/10/2023 - 13:56

            @RedSky: your questions sounds rhetorical, but private healthcare does get funding. Private health care insurance is subsidised, and private medical fees get 75% of the Medicare rate.

      • larndis on 04/10/2023 - 09:29
        +1

        @nathand Short answer, no. Too many voters send their kids to private schools and they have strong lobby groups. Politically, neither party is willing to go there. Federal government funding of private schools is here to stay.

        Different question - can we get States and Territories to adequately fund their own public schools from their share of GST? This should be achievable, but they have gotten away with underfunding for so long I guess it's not a voter priority (over health, roads, etc).

        • nathand on 04/10/2023 - 11:51

          Yeah, it would be mostly lobbying as you say. Also a lot of parliamentarians are private school students including Labor and probably even the Greens.

          So in the years of the LNP in power they raise private funding and then Labor is afraid to lower it because of backlash and media influence.

          I feel like mostly we are proud of Australia being relatively classless society compared to places like Britain, however we are going further and further down the path of class with this separation of education and opportunity.

          With that lobbying if we got rid of private schools you would see how quickly we got a better public system.

          • larndis on 05/10/2023 - 18:32

            @nathand: Yeah but there are still two levels of government involved - the Federal Government doesn't directly fund government schools, only hands cheques to the States and Territories. Only State and Territory governments actually determine the funding of their schools, and could resource them better right now if they wanted to. So why don't they?

            Agree that the (lower) socio economic status of the students in public schools is part of the reason, but I think there is also a broader undervaluing of education generally i.e. properly funding schools wouldn't win as many votes as a new road.

          • Nom on 08/10/2023 - 22:49

            @nathand:

            I feel like mostly we are proud of Australia being relatively classless society compared to places like Britain

            That's an interesting take - I thought it was entirely the other way around.
            In the UK, almost everyone goes to public school and uses the public health system - private schools and private healthcare are a miniscule fraction compared to Australia !

            It's Australia that has a significant "class" of people who pay for private schools and private healthcare…

      • Lucidium on 04/10/2023 - 11:49

        I work in a private school. We are giving the government more than they are giving us since they recently changed things around. Look it up.

        • nathand on 04/10/2023 - 11:54
          +3

          OK, what are you giving? Where do I look it up?

    • Logical on 03/10/2023 - 07:51

      That's the beauty of the plan. If they stay then there won't be any space for the next grads.

    • Awesomandy on 03/10/2023 - 07:52
      +1

      Considering those who actually wanted to go into teaching would barely survive for 2 years, those who don’t want to be there in the first place simply won’t last that long.

    • stealthpaw on 03/10/2023 - 08:43
      +4

      That's exactly what is happening right now.
      Apparently their fix is to increase turnover. Great.

    • AustriaBargain on 03/10/2023 - 08:52
      +1

      I think the tide might be turning in favour of teachers, in 10 years wouldn't surprise me if they get a liveable income and aides to help manage classes or whatever. Then again, we'll have AI capable of running a class by then, but maybe that'll just make human teacher's jobs even easier.

      • JeffOz on 03/10/2023 - 09:18
        +5

        become a school teacher and rent for the rest of your life in modern Australia

        • AustriaBargain on 03/10/2023 - 09:22

          Housing crisis/bubble is a whole other can of worms.

        • Bargain Slut on 03/10/2023 - 22:16

          Not really, just depends where you teach. You can have a decent life outside of capital cities and popular coastal areas.

      • FredAstair on 03/10/2023 - 09:32
        +2

        but what about now.
        crap conditions as the schools and admin look after the a hole students and not the teachers.
        broken system

        • AustriaBargain on 03/10/2023 - 09:56
          +1

          Meh, I remember my Christian school days. The staff were the bigger a holes imo.

      • Never pay retail on 03/10/2023 - 14:45

        I agree that salaries need to drastically increase, however what is your definition of a 'liveable income'? Yes, the salary cap of $115k-130k (depending on state) is problematic for specialised teachers who could leave for a higher paying job in their trained field, however the pay at all scales certainly feels livable to me.

        • ONEMariachi on 03/10/2023 - 23:35
          +1

          Yeah. How many degrees are giving $80k/year first year out of uni?

    • Franc-T on 03/10/2023 - 11:39
      +4

      100% true.

      Theres a lot of issues in play but a lot of reason is that unnessecary teacher workload is at all time high, and problem students just cycle through different schools.

    • Noobist45 on 03/10/2023 - 14:42
      +3

      As a teacher … . wait for it … . hold … … wait … . . NO, they are not making any changes at all.

      The amount of first year teachers that do not want to continue the job but are still trying to find a full time position because it's a job and it pays money. They all eventually leave. The scary part is the teachers that have been doing it for 20+ years that are leaving due to the changes in teaching. Paper work and kids that have to murder someone before they are even remotely disciplined. Teaching industry is a joke.

      • AustriaBargain on 03/10/2023 - 15:39

        Maybe younger freshly trained teachers is not such a bad thing.

        • Placebo on 08/10/2023 - 10:59

          You're right, it isn't such a bad thing, however you cannot place a value on the experience of a teacher who has spent many, many years in the classroom. Schools need to have a balance of new grads, mid career teachers and those who've been at it forever and this is becoming less and less common as teachers leave the profession in droves.

          • AustriaBargain on 08/10/2023 - 11:14

            @Placebo: I suspect that young teachers plus AI will be even better than teachers who have been doing it for 30 years.

    • IdBuyThat4aDollar on 03/10/2023 - 15:42
      +1

      Otherwise they'll still quit after 2 years and we're back to square one.

      Band aid solutions is what the government does best

  • Herbs on 03/10/2023 - 07:06
    +4

    Not really a bargain as the fee payment is effectively a reward for work Ie extra pay ?

      • ilikeit on 03/10/2023 - 08:46
        +11

        There are not enough teachers now. Projected teaching enrolments at uni are low, while students enrolment are increasing.

        It’s like not having enough nurses. Eventually, it will turn into even more of a sh*t show.

        • stealthpaw on 03/10/2023 - 08:51
          +3

          All this will do is increase turnover / throughput. Most new teachers already quit after 2 years after they find out what working conditions are like.

          • FredAstair on 03/10/2023 - 09:33
            +1

            @stealthpaw: this is so true.

            system needs to change.
            not just bandaid offer of educating new gullible teachers into a broke system

        • nathand on 04/10/2023 - 11:58

          I feel like both teaching and nurses come from years and years of over funding to the private systems in both education and health.

      • ninnypoop on 03/10/2023 - 17:20

        Spot the boomer…

  • PainToad on 03/10/2023 - 07:20
    +48

    All this will do is encourage more people who don’t really want to be teachers become teachers for a few years and then leave.

    The real solution is:
    1. Improve conditions.
    2. Drastically improve pay.
    3. Drastically increase the entry requirements. Someone who only just managed to past high school themselves, shouldn’t be teaching it a few years later.

    • miasommers on 03/10/2023 - 07:40
      +12

      Some of the best high school teachers are the ones who struggled to get through. They know the challenges and the way to engage with the content to understand it.

      • blighst on 03/10/2023 - 07:45
        +9

        Probably the outlier and not the average though.

        • miasommers on 03/10/2023 - 08:00
          +14

          Well you do have to have the capacity to complete a 4 year degree - so we’re not talking about the kid in class who is bashing teachers and smoking ongbas in the back of class…

          • OzBarAnon on 03/10/2023 - 10:08
            +1

            @miasommers: It's not difficult to get an undergraduate degree either.

          • scphotos on 03/10/2023 - 21:04

            @miasommers: Let's be honest, Bachelor of Education is a very easy course to pass.

            • miasommers on 03/10/2023 - 21:06

              @scphotos: Ok scphotos.

              • scphotos on 03/10/2023 - 21:16
                +1

                @miasommers: I did a Bachelor of Secondary Education. Every assignment was an all nighter the night/morning before due.

                Some other students were given many chances to resubmit to pass. I'm 10 years into teaching and the bar is low, very low.

                Imo make the degree hard with high entry requirements. Up pay significantly. Prioritise behaviour reforms - give teachers more power to suspend students rather than just leadership. Hot take: in high school have higher class sizes and more aides to provide support to students.
                I'd take significantly more kids in the class, if I can suspend the disruptive students. I know many wouldn't agree.

                • miasommers on 03/10/2023 - 21:25

                  @scphotos: CTs suspending kids is never gonna happen. Same for HTs. Too many perceived wellbeing implications.

      • PainToad on 03/10/2023 - 08:17
        +1

        As someone who found out they had dyslexia my first year of high school, and had to bust my ass (no thanks to most teachers) to still get good grades, I do understand what you’re saying.

        However, I think most of my challenges came from teachers who clearly weren’t very intelligent, were extremely unorganised or just generally uninterested or incompetent.

        • miasommers on 03/10/2023 - 08:21

          SLD does need differentiating for. Sad that that wasn’t helped. The learning & Support Teacher (LAST) should have been upskilling your CTs regarding this by developing and using an independent education program (IEP) for you.

        • FredAstair on 03/10/2023 - 09:35

          i call bs.
          its not the teachers is the system.

          if teachers we allowed to just teach, and admin oroperly disiplined bad behaviour of students, and we didnt have a broken grading system this would be better.

          • PainToad on 03/10/2023 - 10:45

            @FredAstair: One example; I had a teacher claim to have lost everyones’ assignments and wanted to give everyone a C+ because he couldn’t mark the assessment.

            My parents complained to Head of Secondary and the teacher magically found them in the back of his car that night. The lazy prick just didn’t want to mark the assignments.

            I ended up getting an A instead of the default C+ I would have gotten.

            Or being told I didn’t really have dyslexia by other teachers because I was getting good grades. They didn’t see the hours and hours and no social life it took me to get those grades.

            Those are not “because of the system”. It’s because piece of shit teachers who had no place teaching anyone.

            Not saying all teachers. I wouldn’t have my job today if it wasn’t for my teacher who put in the effort helping me get my head around programming.

            Or the amazing teacher who looked past my grades and suggested to my parents I get tested for dyslexia.

            • FredAstair on 04/10/2023 - 09:16

              @PainToad: Using just one personal experience to judge something is often unfair because it represents a limited and subjective viewpoint. Personal experiences can be influenced by individual biases, emotions, and specific circumstances, making them unreliable as a basis for universal judgments.

              What one person perceives as positive or negative may not be representative of the broader reality. To make more informed and fair assessments, it's essential to consider a range of experiences, gather empirical evidence, and recognise the impact of context and subjectivity in forming opinions and making decisions.

        • tunzafun001 on 03/10/2023 - 12:15

          I think Dyslexics are normal. The English language is a disaster. Need to get rid of all the thier/ there and to/ too to etc..makes zero difference (live/ live etc proves it).
          Get stuck into phonetics…for starters spell the frickin word phonetically!! "fonetics"… Silent letters…yor dayz ar over!

          • FredAstair on 04/10/2023 - 09:18

            @tunzafun001: I appreciate your concern for improving language precision and phonetic accuracy, which can indeed enhance communication. However, it's important to remember that language evolves and accommodates variations, including different regional accents and dialects.

            While consistency in spelling and pronunciation can aid clarity, it's also vital to respect linguistic diversity and the historical evolution of words.

            Striving for balance between standardisation and embracing linguistic richness can lead to effective communication without erasing the fascinating complexities of language.

            • tunzafun001 on 04/10/2023 - 09:42

              @FredAstair: Everything else in life evolves. I see language being no different.

              Teachers T&D around "literacy" easily represents more than 80%. It is a disgrace!

              There are far more pressing issues on this planet today than words.

              If its a problem..fix it. Too much time is consumed on a dysfunctional communication medium. Like everything else, document the history, respect it and move on.

              • FredAstair on 04/10/2023 - 09:50

                @tunzafun001: Although I agree with you that the system for teachers need to change and that it is less to do with the teachers themselves, i do have a personal passion for language. In fact i am fouent in two languages and working on a third. I know personally that yhere are errors in most languages.

                While there are urgent global challenges, language and communication remain fundamental to addressing them effectively. Language is not just a tool for conveying information; it shapes our understanding of the world and influences our ability to collaborate, problem-solve, and make informed decisions. Therefore, discussions about language and literacy should not be dismissed outright but rather approached with the intention of finding ways to adapt and improve them in line with contemporary needs and realities.

                On saying this, balancing the preservation of language history and the embrace of evolution is a delicate process, and it's crucial to foster a constructive dialogue that addresses these concerns without diminishing the importance of effective communication in addressing the world's pressing issues.

                • tunzafun001 on 04/10/2023 - 17:53

                  @FredAstair: The ultimate flaw in the human race… have a meeting about meetings..yet nothing gets done.

                  Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

                  • FredAstair on 04/10/2023 - 22:42

                    @tunzafun001: true. but man.. that would giv eyou a headache if you had to do that all the time.

    • nathand on 03/10/2023 - 07:55
      +47

      We should do Finland and get rid of most private schools and then with the rich kids in normal school you see how fast they improve the public education system.

      For those who don’t think there is a class divide in Australia this is it.

      • qvinto on 03/10/2023 - 08:01
        +8

        Spot on

        • pouffle on 03/10/2023 - 08:34
          +18

          It did work for Finland though

            • furythree on 03/10/2023 - 16:18
              +2

              @1st-Amendment: cause he has freedom of choice

              and doesnt like the cold

              • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 16:20

                @furythree:

                cause he has freedom of choice

                Cool. But that doesn't answer the question.

                • furythree on 03/10/2023 - 21:50
                  +2

                  @1st-Amendment: third grade reading comprehension will clue you in on the answer

                  he chose to live here

                  crazy i know

                  • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 22:20
                    -1

                    @furythree:

                    he chose to live here

                    For what reasons specifically?
                    Let me know if I need to dumb this down any further for you…

                    • furythree on 04/10/2023 - 11:22

                      @1st-Amendment: because its not finland

                      do i need to dumb it down further?

                      • 1st-Amendment on 04/10/2023 - 13:12
                        -1

                        @furythree:

                        because its not finland

                        So he chose not to move to Finland because it's not Finland? This is you at your best?

                        do i need to dumb it down further?

                        You're already at the bottom, try going the other way…

                        • furythree on 04/10/2023 - 22:10

                          @1st-Amendment: you asked for a reason

                          you got it

                          now keep moving the goalposts

                          • 1st-Amendment on 05/10/2023 - 09:13

                            @furythree:

                            now keep moving the goalposts

                            Lol, it's the exact same goalpost,

                            Me: Why not move to Finland
                            You: Freedom of choice!
                            Also you: He chose to live here!
                            Also you: Because it's not Finland!

                            What's also funny is that you've spent so much effort flopping about trying to answer a question that wasn't even yours to answer. Truly a remarkable display of brain power 🤣

                            • furythree on 05/10/2023 - 15:30

                              @1st-Amendment: its actually the same answer reworded

                              so hardly moving any goalposts and hardly any effort exerted

                              critical thinking is hard

                              but trolling is easy :)

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