Should Qantas Pay Back The $726m

Trying2SaveABuck on 28/08/2023 - 19:51

So Alan Joyce the out going Qantas CEO has defended refusing to pay back any of the money [$726m] they where given to them during COVID to keep them afloat by the government.

Alan Joyce sacked over 9000 workers during COVID to keep the flying Kangaroo in the air. Most people probably accept we do 'need a domestic' carrier and thus the handouts where seen as a nessary action by the federal government. It is important to note other business also got handouts and refused to give the money back ie Harvey Norman. However many business did had back the money

However Qantas has announced it has made a 'record' profit of 2.7billion before tax [arguably from price gouging and the built up need to travel post COVID] making their bottem line health - 1.7 net profit after tax

Alan Joyce is refusing to pay back of the money given to the company - keeping in mind Alan Joyce has been a vocal critic on social justice issues in the past painting himself to be someone who cares about socialist issues….however to me it seems Mr Joyce is happy to 'spend' other peoples time and effort on issues but when it comes to the company he represents he is happy to line his pockets and the pockets of shareholders.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-advice/flights/i-will-…

My question is simple do you think Qantas should have to pay the money back to the Australian tax payers either 'out of good will' via a special tax which will remain in place till the entire handout is paid back with indexation level interest

Poll Options

837
Qantas should pay the money back
43
Qantas shouldnt pay the money back

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Comments

- - - - jv on 29/08/2023 - 11:51
        
        +1
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        Govs have been limiting other airlines flights for decades to protect Qantas
        
        Difference is now there are fewer flights and higher demand that pre covid.
        On top of that, more people do not want to fly Qantas any more because of their politics, and would rather fly with someone else.
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 11:55
        
        +1
        
        @jv: Still waiting on that list of companies that got $1b+ in tax payer dollars like you claimed…..
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 13:10
        
        -3
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        Still waiting on that list of companies
        
        Good on you…
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 13:13
        
        +1
        
        @jv:
        
        Good on you…
        
        So you can't back up your claims…. figured as much.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 13:14
        
        -2
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        So you can't back up your claims
        
        Which claims ?
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 13:17
        
        @jv:
        
        Which claims ?
        
        Ahhh playing dumb I see, the one that you claimed lots of companies got big handouts based on how much the shutdown impacted them.
        
        So list me the other companies that got $1b+ in tax payer handouts then like Qantas getting $2b. Should be easy for you if it was so common.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 13:18
        
        -1
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        you claimed lots of companies got big handouts
        
        That true, they did.
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 13:31
        
        @jv:
        
        That true, they did.
        
        such a time waster jv, put up your list of companies getting $1b+ or give up yout useless dribble.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 13:44
        
        -3
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        such a time waster jv
        
        if you ask for free help, you need to be patient, otherwise use a paid service.
        
        your list of companies getting $1b
        
        when did I say I made a list of this? I think you need to learn some comprehension….
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 13:52
        
        @jv:
        
        when did I say I made a list of this? I think you need to learn some comprehension….
        
        You made a claim….. I asked you to back it up this claim with some companies that got the money as you claimed.
        
        It might be you who needs to wrok on comprehension instead of playing these pissy time wasting games that you like to do.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 14:00
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        You made a claim….
        
        Which is true.
        
        some companies that got the money as you claimed.
        
        Yes, lots of companies got assistance from the government.
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 15:34
        
        @jv:
        
        Yes, lots of companies got assistance from the government.
        
        and yet you can't list a single one when asked that got $1b+ in tax payer dollars, I mean 'assistance'
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 15:41
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        and yet you ~~can't~~ won't list a single one when asked that got $1b+ in tax payer dollars
        
        FTFY
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 15:43
        
        @jv:
        
        FTFY
        
        No wrong again jv, you can't…… you love to make claims that you can't back up.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 16:09
        
        -1
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        wrong again
        
        never wrong.
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 16:26
        
        @jv:
        
        never wrong.
        
        yawn…. nope, you're boring and wrong. Which is on point for you.
        
        I mean you could prove me wrong by supplying this imaginary list of companies that got billions in tax payer dollars like Qantas. But you can't.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 16:26
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        yawn…. nope
        
        yep
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 17:04
        
        @jv: yawn….. oh jv, you failed again.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 18:48
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        failed again.
        
        After standardisation against your comments, it got rounded to an A+
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 20:29
        
        @jv:
        
        After standardisation against your comments, it got rounded to an A+
        
        Still waiting the list of companies that backs up your claims.
        
        So lets review, A+ for me, and a F- for you so far.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 21:58
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        Still waiting the list of companies
        
        Maybe they were drop shipped?
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 22:06
        
        @jv:
        
        Maybe they were drop shipped?
        
        yawn….. so boring, so childish.
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 22:07
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        so boring, so childish.
        
        good on you for admitting it…
        
        it is the first step to overcoming it.
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 22:13
        
        @jv:
        
        good on you for admitting it…
        
        LOL says the child
        
        it is the first step to overcoming it.
        
        That some users on here and a total waste of space? Oh I already knew that about some.
        
        So where is that list?
        
        jv on 29/08/2023 - 22:30
        
        @JimmyF:
        
        LOL says the child
        
        Illeism ??
        
        JimmyF on 29/08/2023 - 23:23
        
        @jv: So where is that list?
netjock on 28/08/2023 - 23:46

+2

I am not sure there is an official avenue to pay it back like writing a cheque and sending to the treasury etc.

That said a lot of businesses have absolutely been pricks now they are profitable again. Never mind paying it back but being a bit more helpful if only giving money to the food bank or actually telling the government to put a temporary super profits levy a $100m pa from each of the 4 banks making like a billion per quarter wouldn't look bad especially given the amount of debt the government went into to bail their them out.

But you know what is going to happen: the government is going to try to rip everyone off a cup of coffee a week and make off with some more billions to benefit businesses.

I guess it is good advertising for why you want to invest in the share market.
- morse on 29/08/2023 - 03:43
  
  +3
  
  I am not sure there is an official avenue to pay it back
  
  These things can be arranged.
  - Gdsamp on 29/08/2023 - 10:19
    
    +1
    
    hyea if a company that has the PM's ear wanted to, they would
Almost Banned on 28/08/2023 - 23:52

+7

It is not the first time a business has received a bail-out, then kept the money when they returned to profit.
In fact, some companies take the government support, then still close the factories… (cough GM, cough).
Government needs to find a better way to make these payouts loans to be repaid from future profits. I do not support taking equity. If the business fails, you have worthless equity. If it succeeds, you have governments running private businesses. Terrible idea.
- jv on 29/08/2023 - 00:30
  
  +2
  
  Some even take the money when they don't even need it because their profits were increasing….
- ssfps on 29/08/2023 - 01:42
  
  Government needs to find a better way to make these payouts loans to be repaid from future profits
  
  Generally, the whole reason bail-outs exist is because the corporate leaders are the masters of government, which exists to serve them despite ostensibly existing to serve the people. When seen from this perspective, the terms and timing for all these government bail-outs around the world make perfect sense, and it's a much simpler explanation of observed behavior than all governments being led and run by incompetent idiots who happen to fail into powerful decision making positions, accidentally benefiting the rich owners of these businesses.
  My point is, thinking the problem is the government needs to find a better way to bail-out companies due to mounting national debt is kind of like saying snakes needs to find a better way to immobilize their victims because too many mice are dying.
ssfps on 29/08/2023 - 01:40

-3

Irrelevant if they pay it back. A drop in the bucket of the money printed, and the government-banking cartel will just find some other way to burn it, if necessary.
- Trying2SaveABuck on 29/08/2023 - 07:08
  
  +5
  
  this mentality is exactly why the Australian economy is in the toilet
- MrThing on 30/08/2023 - 08:51
  
  Yes pay it back so they do exactly that, burn it - ie; take it out of circulation
Flying Ace on 29/08/2023 - 07:28

+1

I don't think they should have to pay it back, but they should be forced to pay back the tens of millions of dollars of customers' money that they are still holding onto.
[Deactivated] on 29/08/2023 - 07:45

+4

I'd be happy if the leprechaun slid down the rainbow into his pot of gold and just refunded the customers that have thousands in credit owing. Then he can hire back some of the ground crews that he fired while raking in the covid relief.
- Splitsicko on 29/08/2023 - 09:26
  
  Agreed!
- cnrmlj on 30/08/2023 - 16:36
  
  I got my credit back a couple of weeks ago. They sent me an email reminding me about it and I called the number and got the money a couple of days later. Anyone with a credit can do that.
reactor-au on 29/08/2023 - 08:27

+3

Harvey Norman and every other thief too
- Rob-4x4 on 29/08/2023 - 08:56
  
  +2
  
  There is a 4x4 accessory manufacture who also increased profits during covid while claiming the government handouts. And they have not paid it back .
  - [Deactivated] on 29/08/2023 - 11:18
    
    +1
    
    That'd be ARB, used to stand for Anthony Ronald Brown, now it stand for A Rich Basterd.
    - MrThing on 30/08/2023 - 08:50
      
      +1
      
      Socalise the losses, privatise the profits
      - [Deactivated] on 30/08/2023 - 09:35
        
        @MrThing: Once again proving socialism works until you run out of other peoples money.
Rob-4x4 on 29/08/2023 - 08:55

Just more government debt for future generations to have to pay back .. :(
Sinnerator on 29/08/2023 - 09:10

+2

as of 0910 on 29 Aug there have been 12 qantas shareholders vote in this poll
- gyrex on 29/08/2023 - 10:39
  
  +1
  
  Do you realise that nearly every Australian is a Qantas shareholder by virtue of their super fund likely holding a large chunk of shares in them?
  - falcine on 29/08/2023 - 19:00
    
    +1
    
    Qantas market cap is 0.4% of the total market cap of all ASX stocks, so assuming a super fund holds an equal weight in QAN relative to the market, that means for every $100,000 of super you have, you own about $400 worth of Qantas shares.
    
    I'd say you're losing out a lot more as a consumer in a restricted competition scenario by paying high fares (probably hundreds of $$$ more) and bad service, than you gain as a QAN shareholder via your super fund.
gyrex on 29/08/2023 - 09:19

+2

Alan Joyce has been a vocal critic on social justice issues in the past

That's a bizarre claim and I'd argue that he's been nothing but an ardent supporter of nearly every social justice issue during his tenure; to the detriment of shareholders who want him and Qantas to stay out of politics and focus on their core business.
- MrThing on 30/08/2023 - 08:49
  
  +3
  
  Stay out of politics, insurance, hotels, car rentals, banking, etc
  
  They cant even get bread and butter right…..flights
Splitsicko on 29/08/2023 - 09:37

Alan Joyce is a smarmy little rat that needs his visa terminated. I use the word ‘terminated’ as that’s what he and his henchmen did to me and thousands of loyal hard working employees after refusing the v@x.
28 years of service to this airline and kicked to the kerb for standing up to the bullies!
I realise we all had to choose if we wanted the clot shot or no job.
Meanwhile tho, only a year before getting the boot they were happily paying us Jobkeeper
Sitting on our bums getting hand outs via the grubberment was wrong. Definitely could have been done so much better. Qantas won as did most conglomerates! It’ll never be paid back.
- belongsinforums on 30/08/2023 - 23:46
  
  Covid ate your face?
Zeph101 on 29/08/2023 - 09:40

The money that the government paid to Qantas for Jobkeeper was going to be paid out no matter what. Staff were kept employed and Qantas received cash from the govt to keep them employed. If Qantas made the staff redundant etc, every single one of the staff would have been paid Jobseeker to the same amount. It was essentially a net 0 to Qantas to receive the funds from the Govt as it was paying it all straight back out to staff.

However what Qantas did in keeping staff employed was to limit its exposure to the massive outgoings in regards to LSL, Redundancy payments etc that it would have been liable for if the staff were let go.
- MrThing on 30/08/2023 - 08:47
  
  +1
  
  Nice try Alan
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/25/qantas-to-c…
Sweet3st on 29/08/2023 - 10:43

+6

I like the way Joyce refused to attend the Senate session voluntarily and had to be summonsed! Qantas reputation is beyond repair thanks to that guy. I never fly Qantas unless it's a reward flight. Overpriced, surly service, inedible meals. If you're travelling to Europe, fly to Singapore with Scoot then pick up a competitive fare from there.
- MrThing on 30/08/2023 - 08:46
  
  Meals????
  
  All i got was a biscuit on my last sydney to brisbane flight
ribze1 on 29/08/2023 - 22:31

Stock should have being issued not just a handout, or the Libs should have had some kind of payback clause. I agree Qantas needed saving but to just take the money and then two years later post profits like this is an absolute insult.
- Trying2SaveABuck on 29/08/2023 - 22:33
  
  I agree Libs should of had some 'strings' my question is why is the ALP protecting there magins but not allowing more competition from Qatar airways
MrThing on 30/08/2023 - 08:44

+2

The government are a bunch of schmucks for not giving out covid handouts in return for an equity stake for companies above a certain value

All qantas got was a free handout, cut its workforce and continues to out source

Awesome "Australian" company. Its the kind of behaviour you expect from a company in the USA
- Poor Ass on 30/08/2023 - 09:02
  
  with Lehman Brothers being the exception
  
  The flying kanga too important to Australia, gov will never let them die
  - MrThing on 30/08/2023 - 09:04
    
    +2
    
    Doesnt stop the government being a shareholder partner and claim dividends
    
    For all the handouts and subsidies, the government could have bought qantas and nationalise it again
    
    Join the league of other countries with nationalised airlines - who also have the best airlines in the world - singapore, uae, sorta nz
    - Poor Ass on 30/08/2023 - 09:14
      
      +1
      
      Good strategy.
      
      Like I always say. When you got a monopoly and it's privatise. No matter how bad the service is, people will have to use it. Should government have a stake, should be some what decent.
      
      I wish the AIZ share price would go up more. Good airlines you have mentioned. I also don't mind Korean Air.
Herbse on 30/08/2023 - 08:50

Why would anyone give back money that was happily handed to them with no stipulations? Would you?

The Libs handed out welfare to companies with no rules around what happens to it if the company doesn't need it or that they can't lay off staff later on and use the record profits to pay off high end executives and share holders. Companies all around the country took advantage of it, not just qantas.

The papers were poorly drawn and then signed off, the agreement has already been made.

No one, including the current government can't change that or make them pay it back without facing legal issues in the process.

Once again the party of financial responsibility has screwed us over.
- xdigger on 30/08/2023 - 09:29
  
  +1
  
  Doesn't mean its right in a democratic country. Corrupt politicians write laws to benefit their corporate buddies and get rewarded later with cushy post-politics jobs. Many ex-politicians have joined miners and defence companies later on, and I bet AUKUS is another cashcow for them to milk.
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jan/28/chris…
  - Herbse on 30/08/2023 - 10:28
    
    If course it's not "right" and doesn't "aligns with moral values". But making money never does.
    
    Can we ask the boomers who are sitting on houses they bought for $150k and are now worth $1.6M to sell at a lower price because it's the right thing to do for the younger generation? Can we ask high income earners to stop tax deducting expenses on their multiple properties to help them reduce their taxable income? Or ask multi billion dollar companies to pay their fair amount of tax rather than using write-offs and loopholes to reduce it to zero?
    
    We can ask politely, but they're all playing within the rules that have been made for them. No sane person would.
- idonotknowwhy on 30/08/2023 - 17:17
  
  Why would anyone give back money that was happily handed to them with no stipulations? Would you?
  
  These 20 companies did:
  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-14/jobkeeper-repaid-come…
- RecklessMonkeys on 30/08/2023 - 19:25
  
  I agree, there should have been stipulations. A loan would've been appropriate.
  
  In hindsight, no one would be surprised that the deeply corrupt LNP would do this.
  
  The perfect leverage for making Qantas pay something back , would've been this Qatar business.
  
  And that's on Labor.
Poor Ass on 30/08/2023 - 08:57

+2

QANTAS should pay back but then again the gov will just spend it on crap like submarines
Poor Ass on 30/08/2023 - 08:59

@AustriaBargain any LNP bashing comments applicable here?
xdigger on 30/08/2023 - 09:24

Typical corporate fat cats and their corrupt politician mates using taxpayers monies for their personal gain…. Just wait and watch which politician gets cushy Qantas board roles after retiring from public service. Straight out of the playbook from the billionaires miners and their corporate tax rebates.
callum9999 on 30/08/2023 - 11:03

While I like the idea of adding strings like gaining shareholdings and clawbacks from future profits when government provides support to private companies, the people arguing about morality while simultaneously demanding Qatar get given additional access to Australia are somewhat hypocritical.

If you're angry about the impact on your/"the taxpayers" wallet but not angry about Qatar being an authoritarian, oppressive dictatorship then I hate to break it to you, but you're not arguing from any kind of objectively moral viewpoint. It's still a valid viewpoint to have, but you can't get on some kind of ethical, anti-corruption high horse.
- RecklessMonkeys on 30/08/2023 - 19:29
  
  Since Qatar already operate here, I think that's secondary to the point - which is competition.
  
  If you wanted to ban them on human rights issues, I wouldn't argue against it.
  - callum9999 on 01/09/2023 - 08:27
    
    I wasn't arguing for or against a ban, I was pointing out the hypocrisy of those claiming they are providing an argument based on morality.
    
    Foreign diplomacy doesn't work on the basis of "full cooperation" or "total isolation". There's a middle ground and I can't see anything in your post providing a justification for why the response can't be nuanced?
    
    (Yes, I know people love conspiracies so think being given lounge access by Qantas - which all politicians, regardless of political position, get from all 3 main airlines - means they swear undying devotion to the airline, but I'm just discussing the argument on its own merit)
    - RecklessMonkeys on 01/09/2023 - 08:29
      
      No worries. If 'one' wanted to ban them on human rights issues, I wouldn't argue against it.
    - RecklessMonkeys on 01/09/2023 - 08:33
      
      …and I was defending myself against claims of hypocrisy. :)
      - callum9999 on 01/09/2023 - 08:40
        
        @RecklessMonkeys: Given that accusation was never made against you that seems like a weird thing to do, but good to know I guess?
        
        RecklessMonkeys on 01/09/2023 - 08:43
        
        @callum9999:
        
        the people arguing about morality while simultaneously demanding Qatar get given additional access to Australia are somewhat hypocritical.
        
        Oh just 'somewhat hypocritical' then.
        
        callum9999 on 01/09/2023 - 13:56
        
        @RecklessMonkeys: I had no idea you were arguing about morality while demanding Qatar be given more access?
        
        I just searched the page for your name and the only post I see implies the exact opposite - that the government should be blackmailing Qantas into handing over money with the threat that they'd give Qatar more slots if they don't?
        
        RecklessMonkeys on 01/09/2023 - 14:29
        
        @callum9999: It's implicit in my first response to you.
surg3on on 30/08/2023 - 11:17

if the gov wants the money back they should take it back via legislation
- Mistredo on 30/08/2023 - 12:24
  
  +2
  
  The problem is the gov is corrupt. They gave enough support to save Qantas but not enough support to Virgin, and it was placed into voluntary administration. They don't give extra flights to Qatar to protect Qantas. How can you expect them to legislate anything that would harm Qantas? They treat a publicly traded company like they own it…
  - surg3on on 31/08/2023 - 11:00
    
    They do own it (privately)
  - callum9999 on 01/09/2023 - 08:36
    
    No competent government would have bailed out Virgin.
    
    It's foreign owned - what other countries bailed out foreign owned airlines?
    
    It's an unprofitable business. Qantas was bailed out to save it from a blip caused from external events. Virgin was losing money for years.
    
    Why exactly do you believe they SHOULD have been bailed out?
SlickMick on 30/08/2023 - 11:52

I also reckon Virgin should have to pay their debts. When you buy a bankrupt company, you should be buying the debt as well as the assets.
How is it okay to wipe your debts then start flying again?
- MrThing on 31/08/2023 - 07:01
  
  Thats the whole thing around bankruptcy
  
  Although I agree with you 100%
  
  It works the same for us plebs, but compared to us we have all our assets sold in a fire sale first dont we to pay back what we can?
- Gaz1 on 31/08/2023 - 16:56
  
  Essentially if that was the rule, no one would buy a bankrupt company (this doesn't make it right of course).
Mistredo on 30/08/2023 - 13:06

+3

Fun fact: Qantas market cap during COVID was under $6 billion, so $2.7 billion that they got would buy the gov almost 50% stake in Qantas.
- RecklessMonkeys on 30/08/2023 - 19:05
  
  Wow.
DingoBilly on 30/08/2023 - 14:16

+2

On the one hand, they didn't exactly sign an agreement they'd give it back, and businesses aren't there to make people feel good about themselves so I understand that Qantas won't pay it back. It's not ideal but I can't really be angry at Qantas.

I feel like government should have been given the handouts with something built in that it would be paid back over X amount of time out of X % of profits. I think that would have made a lot more sense to be fair.
- SlickMick on 31/08/2023 - 09:41
  
  How hard would it have been to give loans rather than handouts?
  
  I thought it was government incompetence, but now I realise it's corruption.
  I was listening to a podcast about it, and when they turned to how they also refused to allow other airlines fly here more, I realised what was going on.
OzzyOzbourne on 30/08/2023 - 14:37

Yes and Harvey too
mavis30551 on 30/08/2023 - 15:53

+1

How much is Qantas worth?

The Gov should of just bought them out and then profit.
jugsy on 30/08/2023 - 16:04

+4

Alan Joyce has been screwing workers and screwing the airline for decades, it's like each new problem makes everyone forget the last one?
Drakesy on 30/08/2023 - 17:58

+6

Joyce and qantas are a dumpsterfire of a company taking aussies to the cleaners while claiming to look after australian jobs to only send it all off shore
paloverde88 on 30/08/2023 - 21:59

+4

that CEO is probably the most evil person with cash at the moment, Don't encourage him, he loves attention.
- Trying2SaveABuck on 30/08/2023 - 22:02
  
  White gay rich male the new Straight white rich guy
USER DC on 30/08/2023 - 22:02

What qantas need to do is give refunds to people for their cancelled flights etc. (instead of stupid useless flight credits).

And regarding paying back money to taxpayer, I think all big companies should not just qantas (Dont forget Harvery norman, etc.)
djsweet on 31/08/2023 - 09:51

+1

Why should they give it back? It was a handout with no strings attached. This is a Government policy failure. Would you give back your centerlink just coz you got a job? Or not claim your childcare rebate even though you can technically afford to? Qantas should never have been given a hand out. But now that they have, thats that. You reap what you sow.
- gstfree on 31/08/2023 - 11:39
  
  Well said and fully agree.
gstfree on 31/08/2023 - 11:37

If Qantas was legally eligible to get the government grant and no pay back clause, then on what basis the shareholders approve to donate their money back? The government grant assisted the airline during the most difficult time. Now the industry is picking up and rewarding the economy with more employments.

Should Qantas Pay Back The $726m

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