Hey OzB,
I've been wondering about the typical starting annual salary range for a fresh computer science PhD holder in the industry in Australia. Does having a PhD hold the same value as having around four years of experience?
Would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Note: this is the annual salary of a fresher who doesn't have much industry experience.
Lots of talk about PhDs being useless. I work in R&D with an engingeering company. Lots of PhDs, they are always the ones higher up and given the important tasks. Also start on about 110k, regular grads are 70k.
Lots of people probably work in jobs where high school academics is sufficient. It'll be the same people that tell you "uni was a waste of time".
plenty of fields PhD's have real value. IT is generally not one of them except in niche fields where the job directly relates.
Exactly. People here thinking that a PhD is useless really mean that it is useless for the jobs/industries/roles they have exposure to and familiarity with.
They do not understand or value the skills a PhD can bring because for these roles PhD skills are not necessary.
And I am not disparaging anyone or saying that their jobs may be less demanding, they just may not require the research, technical and scientific communication skills that a PhD may have.
How about someone who has 20 years of experience with Masters etc.? Asking about a friend. NOT for a friend….? ;)
Does having a PhD hold the same value as having around four years of experience?
is this a real question?
What do you think?
Ops wants to hear a nice figure. So here it is . $100k.
But seriously you would need to prove your worth in the initial few years before you can ask for a big pay rise.
I know of people who studied masters etc because they couldn’t land a graduate job. Reasons could be many. Communication could be one.
your PHD isn't worth any more than someone with fresh undergrad degree and considerably less than someone with even 1 years experience. I have interviewed PHD students before and their expectations are that they somehow make them more valuable in IT, they really don't unless it is in some niche specialist field that your degree adds something important too.
undergrad Degree, honours, masters, PHD. all worth the same in IT in general and that is as a sticker to get you a grad position and no your PHD is not worth 4 years experience, it is worth precisely 0 years experience.
I'd be more open to paying a TAFE graduate better money than a PHD grad. At least you know the TAFE grad is coming in with a functioning skill set, real world experience as part of their study and likely have basic interpersonal skills.
nephew was on $120k when he graduated with honors, very good at coding and optimisation. 5 years later works in the USA. At my work web developers get lowest pay, data scientists and integrators get the most. very important what field you work in, language skills at meetings, and deliver tangible product. with phd it might depend on the relevance of your thesis. i hate it when companies like atlasian complain of skill shortages, no shortage they aren’t paying enough to attract good people so want to import cheaper labour. my nephew left australia as it wasn’t paying enough and that was $120k.
Unfortunately in the present World with academic inflation, where everyone has a double degree and work flipping burgers or staking shelves then a post grad qualification may help open some more doors to jobs.
Join Facebook or Google, in USA. Get $200K+ TC right out of uni.
Like others have asked, what area of comp sci was your PhD in?
When I got my Masters (by coursework) from RMIT (web/info systems in early 2000's) and had been working in IT for 2-3 years - recruiters didn't give a sh****t! I was after a private sector job. Quite different from a PHD and the types of roles you may be looking for.
When I've been part of hiring it's a mix of experience, personality, aptitude and attitude in almost equal portions that are what I've always looked for, but I've always worked for places where cultural fit has always been deemed very important.
Good luck, hope you get a job with a big bag!!
Does having a PhD hold the same value as having around four years of experience?
Unless your PhD specialisation is on a very niche area that is very relevant to the job you're applying, it won't mean anything at all to the employer. What the people you're hiring needs is experience on the job you're hired for. They don't want to spend months of resources on you so you can skill up on the part you're hired to do. (think about it from company's perspective). So most of the time you'll be given a package similar to a fresh under grad or 1-2 years experienced fellow. From then onwards it's up to you to use your extra few brain cells to skill up faster than your average joe and prove your worthiness. (Sorry if the language is not too soft, but it is very much the reality)
Phds would come in useful where there is an insane amount of competition and every skill on your resume/ every word you speak in an interview counts such as valley companies. Even after you manage to get into one of those companies you'd find the culture is pretty cut throat. But some people like it. So YMMV :)
Are you from overseas?
What do you want to do with your PHD? Research?
If you want good answers, don't bad questions
whatever McDonalds is willing to pay.
Not much really, unfortunately industry experience tops a PhD unless the PhD is in a relevant field. If it is in machine learning / data science you will probably have a very bright future.
I once had a candidate with a PhD apply for a front end developer position. I'd guess that they applied for all the IT jobs out of desperation. Felt bad for the guy, but did not proceed as he did not have any experience.
I don't know why so many are voting <$60K with so little context?
It really depends on what you did during your phD -> If you were to go into the industry as a software engineer:
A) Did you get exposure to good programming practice, code reviews by more senior people?
B) Or did you just focus entirely on research and papers?
If you coded a lot, focused on writing good code for others to read & maintain with mentoring from a senior -> you effectively would have 3+ years of experience & it would show in the interview.
If you didn't but can code like a good grad (top grads often code really well due to nervousness & ridiculous practice), & have done well in an algorithms course (i.e. can do med-hard leetcode questions and explain what on earth you're doing:
You'd get in for a grad intake, which, at least for Sydney is $80K -> $120K for the majority of places (massive range is due to higher money in fields where the $$$ currently is -> web development or AI specialties). Potentially more money available in the tail-end of companies (fintech, Google etc) - especially if your PhD aligns with a cash-cow field for them.. Obviously more competition in the higher paying jobs.
That said, with many of the big companies cutting back on growth prospects, hiring juniors has been scaled back -> bear with it, and stay near the top of your cohort in critical thinking, communication & analysis, you'll be fine and get somewhere eventually.
A Service Desk Analyst should be on $60k+ and you don’t even need a degree for that (although it helps). So this person should be on at least that!
Agreed - generally most people I knew who put the effort into chasing a Comp Sci. PhD could code well alone -> and if ego is in check wouldn't be hard to mentor into coding well as part of a team.
So much negativity around here :D -> PhDs do have value to the individual & DO have impact in R&D fields.
They just need to be aligned with the right employer/organisation who will utilise that potential: Sometimes the market is difficult for some specialties -> that's no reason to rubbish someone's goal.
You think a quantum computer & quantum software could be built by people watching youtube all day? (Pretty much a technological arms race that will revolutionise pharmaceutical research by the way - health is the next big sector of growth)
Gosh -> can't we idolise people who do research & dedicate their lives to a SCIENTIFIC field rather than - I dunno, sing other peoples songs in front of 4x B grade celebrities? Idiots already outnumber the educated & are screwing up Western Society by paying people by views rather than facts-> Let's celebrate this person's dedication people!!!
we have one developer from australia , the rest are from India (10) , it’s one of those areas it’s easy to import key stroke skills, would depend what you did phd in and how you present in interview.
I hire a few devs a year. PHD experience to me means squat. Capability, experience and understanding is far more critical. For Juniors we give them a short learning task to experience how they do if they were given they're first project. Starting Salary 75-90k.
This thread highlights that most people do not have a good understanding of what the point of a PhD is, what skills it teaches you and what is involved in completing one.
Out of cursory interest - what skills do you think doctorate in Comp Science grants you?
Apart from the technical expertise in the specific topic you are focusing on, doing a PhD should teach you:
- how to identify knowledge gaps in existing bodies of knowledge one is not initially an expert in
- structure a long term project plan and methodology to address the gaps
- systematically obtain and analyse data to test hypotheses
- self-motivation and discipline to complete and independent 3+ year project with mostly self-imposed deadlines
- and most importantly, communicate well in written and presentation format. The last one is one of the key skills one should develop during a PhD and that people underestimate the value of. Most people do not know how to write or present well when dealing with complex information even after an undergraduate education and work experience. Writing well is equivalent to thinking well.
With regards to specific computer science topics, the core LLM AI technologies that are part of the current technological revolution were developed during phd and academic programs in academia e.g. look at Andrej Karpaty, Ilya Sutskever, Gefforey Hinton etc
sure if you arre going into a research focused area then a PhD has some great benefits, for most projects in IT though very little of what a PhD learnt will translate, especially if you were working mostly solo. Most Grads or even people with post grad degrees the first few months is spent unlearning the garbage most universities teach and struggle with the uncertainty and poor requirements coming from clients and hence require a lot of supervision if they haven't got real world experience.
@gromit: I'm obviously not talking about most IT projects. Most it projects are not research. No one is saying do a Phd to do average run of the mill IT work. Someone asked what a PHd it teaches you so I answered. Unless you do one you really don't understand. I deal with people from industry all the time and people from academia and research roles. There are some things the industry folk are not very good at. I have supervised several phd studnets from industry (including the mature ago owner of a large company) and they were not very good at clearly defining, research and communicating the solution to complex technical problems. A lot of IT is not computer science. Anyway watsed enough time on this, if your job doesn't need a Phd and you think they are useless then great, you can believe what you want.
The golden question is why would anyone do a PHD in comp science. Unless you are planning to dedicate your career to research you can whipe your ass with it 15 minutes after you get it.
they aren't "totally" useless, but it does depend on the area of research and the job you are going for. Having said that all the people I know that have successfully done them to their advantage have done so mid career to help them specialise, e.g. Cyber, AI or financial modelling.
In most cases, the point of a PHD is to perform research in a new, unproven area of science. That includes computer science. Naturally, a fair few technologies that we use today have their roots in that process. From my recollection, Google Search Algorithm was one such project.
However, if one is planning to get a job "with a PHD", then it's a misuse. Because the IDEA is, to research something new. You don't then go with your successfully defended PHD to a company and go, "I've researched this thing and can research more similar things for you". I mean you can, but then the relevant organisation needs to be recruiting specifically for research in that area at the time when you're searching for a job. And it's highly doubtful in that situation the question of how much more salary can I get for my PHD, will be a relevant consideration.
exactly. it is very unclear from the posters description exactly what type of job he is going for. However the statement that does his PhD count as 4 years experience tends to make me think he is not going into research as if he was he would know everyone else likely already has the same and it will not count for any experience and if he is targetting more general IT be it architecture, BA work, analyst, consulting, infrastructure, development etc the PhD has no value beyond what any other grad has.
Even undergrad comp sci grads will on average get 60-80k. People voting under 60k are delusional imo. (assuming syd or mel)
There are some companies that pay very poorly (well below market rates), and new starters just take them for experience and likely try to leave as soon as possible.
Yeah agree but the median would be earning about 70-75k these days. The actual average would be a bit higher still
Yep, even the public service pays ~72k for graduate roles (~78k after a year), none of these inclusive of enterprise bargaining or the 3% planned increase for this year.
BS, average income on OzBargain is $300k-$450k. You guys can't be serious suggesting <$60k
OzBargainers make $300k-$450k by paying their employees <$60k. dur.
P.H.D in the right industry can command some $$$ ;)
Does having a PhD hold the same value as having around four years of experience?
No, not where I work. You'd have been much better off working and building your career over those 4 years. Especially in the boom of the last 4 years where you could have grown your salary easily to 6 figures mid-100s in that time.
I'd say between $80K-120K depending on which area you want to get into, what your PhD project was about, and the technical experience you gained during those years.
Do you have any publications, or developed/maintained open source projects that can be easily verified (Github or equivalent)? You can argue that in itself is your 'work experience', as some PhD projects are like working (cheaply) for your supervisors.
If you are going to academia, PostDocs in Australia normally start around $80K-90K. Not sure what the demands are for pure computer scientists, but going to specialised field like bioinformatics, computational physics, etc might still be relevant to your PhD research? Teaching roles in universities (lecturer) + supervising honours/masters/phd students, might also get you paid slightly more.
Some specific R&D roles within big companies like Google etc also favoured someone with PhD (but don't think the one I saw was fresh grad PhD). These might pay more than $120K.
No idea but when i recruit i don't look at university qualifications i look at how people have spent their lives and experience. A PHD in that industry would be worth nothing. 4 years of experience would be worth significantly more.
I knocked back an applicant with a PhD early this year for a service desk role. She was studying AI and was quite intelligent, but had absolutely 0 real world experience or exposure. She had not spent any time outside of academia, so I couldn't even offer her an entry level role.
As others have said, take whatever work you can get for the time being to flesh out your CV and then start moving into your field of choice.
As a PhD myself, I'm confident in R&D you would expect a starting salary of $105k+. If you join a company who are looking for researchers, you can be worth more. I know colleagues in IBM have earn a lot.
The OP should do another poll on how many people responding here have actually done a technical PhD and work in an industry which involves research. I suspect the number is close to zero so take the advice here with that in mind. As some have implied If you are not doing R&D the PhD won't help, but if you are it will. Most people don't deal with R&D so their opinion about what they don't understand is not worth much
In Australia PhDs are worth a lot, but not a lot to employers, unless you're going into medicine, research or becoming a university professor. Expect to be paid the same amount or similar to a bachelor degree grad. Real world experience is valued more highly by employers.
/edit - when I've been looking at people's CVs to make recommendations to my boss, I didn't look at what uni they went to or whether they did bachelor / masters / PhD. I've focused on their experience and whether they have the type of experience that fits in with the advertised role.
As someone who works in IT: a degree is handy for getting your foot in the door, but doesn’t hold much value beyond that (unless you’re working in a very specialised field or plan to become an academic). You’ll make money by having an aptitude to learn quickly and apply those learnings to practical solutions, and even more so if you have the people skills to work with clients and/or project managers (honestly, the bar is surprisingly low for the latter).
Exactly. It’ll help you get a leg up, and make you stand out. But what really helps is experience, people skills, evidence of continued learning and improvement.
It entirely depends on your skill, area of research and competency. That's the beauty of technology - it's not your degree or score that earns you cash - it's your area of expertise and skill level. It's not like, entry level accounting job will always earn you $60k and its an industry standard. No.
If your skills are in demand and market needs you, they can pay you really well. May be $100k+.
If you have done research on optimizing COBOL compiler, then good luck.
Depends on how the employer values your skills and how much value you can create for the employer. For fresh graduate you can expect around $70k.
Don't bother with these commentators saying a PhD is useless— but…
(i) Not all PhD's are equal. I know multiple PhD's who have created multi-million dollar businesses; inventing amazing technology. Those are the entrepreneurial types who had very curious but ambitious minds. What you also find is that for every entrepreneurial archetype you will find in equal numbers two types of people. The 'I'm hiding from the world' types. They don't really know what to do after university and are hiding from their responsibilities (i.e., about 50% female PhD's from my estimates) and the 'I'm doing it for the title of PhD'. You know the latter because they always include their Dr title on their bank card, airline ticket, business card etc… I also witnessed a full fee paying student (from a continent you can guess) who had never used a computer before. That person is now out in the world giving PhD's a bad wrap.
(ii) Your salary depends on the area/subspecialty you did your research in. Duh, if you didn't bother doing something industry relevant, the only area you can apply that information you just mastered is in academia.
(iii) but mainly it's dependant on you as a person. Did you make good connections with industry during your research? If you didn't you missed out on a golden opportunity. Given that you are here asking OzBargain instead of experts at conferences, you probably didn't venture out of the university and talk to business owners and other researchers in your field that much.
I found my PhD valuable, I have a Computer Science degree, but my PhD topic combined programming skills with applied physics. I left University and started consulting using my tech that I developed during my PhD for around $1500/day before an industry crash. Then I found myself at the university doing research for a few more years. I've now since left, but I received offers between $130 and $250k in industry.
CS PhD here who joined academia straight after as a research fellow. Starting salary was ~86k 5 years ago. After 5 years, joined the industry for 140k.
Agree with the above. If you are in a hot area (ML, DS, CV, etc) you can go for around 120k - all most all of my friends who did their PhDs in those areas got somewhere close.
But if not, you may have to start at a junior role.
Mirrors my experience, although RFs are around 115 now (Monash)
Agreed. I was at Monash as well and the salary was tad above that.
@AMelbournian, @GSDan: Out of curiosity, ~86k or ~115k: Is it inclusive of super? I guess the super is high for academia jobs (17%) whereas the industry jobs quote their salary with the super as a package.
@Young gardener: Not inclusive, 17% on top of 115
The pay is pretty good when you consider it. The maternity setup is also very generous. The issue is that unless you want to become a lecturer and spend half your life with grant proposals etc, there's not much in the way of a ladder beyond that position.
@Young gardener: 86k was the starting salary at a different uni 5 years ago. 115k was when I left Monash recently.
Agree with @GSDan. I took almost two months off as paternity leave.
And amen to the last sentence of their comment as well. I wanted to be a lecturer. But it was so competitive and you have to be pretty good in not only research, but also in teaching, admin, etc. Even if then, I don't understand the rational behind most of the recent hiring decisions as well. There were far better candidates than they selected.
45-65K. Market is dead now and depending on what you majored in you will probably struggle for the longest while.
Your best bet is to start with a development focused Research Fellow/Engineer gig at a university, who will actually value the PhD in the recruitment process. After a few years you will at least have some professional experience you can point to.
Source: literally just did this, about to start a nicely paying senior dev role.
For most Comp-Sci students, I'd imagine at least 60-70k for a graduate salary. I have no idea how the PhD would factor into it. I imagine very little if at all unless you're going into an area where your PhD can contribute significantly like a research organisation or something.
And to answer your question, no, a PhD does not equate to four years industry experience.
I love all the comments from people who have no idea - please just read the comments from people who did their PhD in comp sci.
When I use to recruit interns/grads. PHD candidate had this problem that their studies didn't trump actual industry experience. For most entry level IT job, you can go to TAFE for a year instead of getting a bachelor let alone getting a master/PHD.
Most candidate that I met who had a master or PHD, seem to not be able to get a job as a bachelor or got in the wrong industry initially. So a graduate candidate that is a bachelor, that did summer internship or even work at MSY, were light years ahead.
To be honest, best for PHD to stay as a academic or go into hardcore engineering where you do research and development. However most of these jobs are in US or India.
Finally, nothing stopping you progressing and making good coin as long as you willing to do the hard yards like a graduate.
Hi - PhD holder in Medicine.
The comments here are pretty misinformed so I will make some general comments about mine. Firstly, a PhD is a miserable undertaking and not something you should just waltz into. It's a stressful undertaking - nothing you plan for will actually work the way it was meant to. Timelines, collaborations, data access etc. Unless you're a project manager for a team consisting solely of you it's NOT like anything you will have done before.
If you are considering a PhD you may be eligible for a Government RTP stipend of ~$38,000 AUD tax free (if I'm remembering the current rate correctly) for 3 years of full time equivalent study at most universities. Most also have a few thousand dollars in learning and development funds you can tap into as well for relevant training and conferences. You can work on top of that, but if you reach a certain bracket your taxes will kick in.
During your time in a PhD it is incumbent on you to develop: a body of work that can be shown to others, a set of high-level skills and knowledge that not only help you answer your research questions but also can be used following the conferral of your degree, an ability to work independently to produce this work to an extremely high standard, a network of collaborators who can hook you up with opportunities and insider knowledge that sets you ahead of the competition. All of these things are opportunities that non-PhD people don't get a punt at - this is what you need to show afterwards. I need to strongly emphasise that the supervisor's job is to do just that - supervise. They will NOT be doing your research work for you, and will take a pretty hands off approach compared to undergrad or honours. I've known people who have dropped out because they started a PhD and when they weren't being coddled or having lab assistants set up their work like they did in honours. It can be a massive shellshock.
Afterwards, your options vary depending on your field of study. Say you stay in academic research. A Masters degree with several years of existing research and publications is a mandatory minimum to even be considered for a well reputed and resourced research group in a non-support role. A PhD will have the same level of consideration, because you're regarded as being competent in advanced research techniques in your field, and able to independently learn new techniques and apply them to research. A starting postdoctoral fellow's pay rate depends on the university and the research grants/funding the group has. I know that at USYD for the team I was looking at, the starting pay was either $100,000 to $110,000 with + super.
Industry is more nuanced. As my field is more directly applicable to medicine, the starting salaries are currently above $110,000 AUD with additional stipends and super. For these types of roles you, at minimum, need a PhD or a relevant undergraduate degree (e.g. nursing, pharmacy) with an additional masters degree. This is for both research and development, as well as product communication. You need the credentials, or somehow gain years of experience with a "lesser" degree to be competitive. You can get paid less and go into other roles within the medical research stream where a PhD is favourable but not mandatory, but you'll be competing with people who may have more experience than you and thus be just as competitive.
Still, as I said above a PhD is regarded as a stamp of approval to you as a person. Your background will shape whether you proceed into a more pure research stream or different roles in the company, or even stay in your field at all.
Data science is versatile and I know some PhD holders that have taken roles as very well paid statisticians or analysts. You need to have an understanding of what your skills and knowledge in your field you develop in a PhD will be used in industry once you finish, bearing in mind that people in adjacent fields are more likely to hire you because your degree does hold some weight.
Entry level same as any grad, but if you learned anything from your PhD, the most valuable skills you pick up are knowing how to learn new things yourself and to break down and solve large problems.
Being surrounded by people good at this during your study makes you think it's normal, but most people have no idea and just get overwhelmed. This will help you progress much faster than others that are not good at this.
Don't understand this <60k..
A fresh grad with comp sci generally get anywhere from 70k-90k.
I would recommend looking at the Professional Services Award as a point of reference:
MA000065 - Professional Services Award
Look at the level classifications and be realistic about your expected contributions and responsibilities.
PhD is useless in Australia.
I don’t see the connection between salary and pretty huge dick
As someone with a PhD in computer science who has also spent time in industry, the question is honestly not something that makes much sense to answer - I don't think you could find a more variable qualification for income, except perhaps 'inheritor'. There IS no 'typical income', because there is no typical compsci PhD graduate. Sometimes the skills are transferable outside of research, sometimes they aren't, sometimes the research is something industry wants, sometimes it isn't.
I know plenty of compsci PhDs who are flat out unhireable in the IT industry, and their industry income will never amount to more than $0. Some of them are quite capable academics, some of them should never have done the PhD and will only ever work outside the field. I also know several people (with no prior industry experience) who were poached for high 6 figures right out of the gate. They know who they are. They are also not working in Australia, which cannot compete for top research graduates, and 99% of the Australian IT industry will just be confused with a PhD holding applicant and HR will shunt it to the too hard pile.
If you are a PhD holder going in to a part of IT where people without a PhD can do the work… you likely wasted your time on the PhD, and will be getting the same salary as someone fresh out of undergrad, IF you are lucky and can show continued relevance. The PhD is worth negative time in experience in that case. If you are applying to a role that specifically asks for a PhD (chances are you are working in something specific to ML, IoT, HCI, or quantum, which are the fields I see doing this sort of recruiting at the moment), then…… you will probably still earn less than a regular software graduate because they know you are used to living on RTP and entry level academic roles pay peanuts.
The benefit to the PhD in that case is usually to do with a high future income ceiling - but you have to prove that you have the chops to cope in industry, which nobody will trust you do until you do the work to prove it.
Smarter option is probably to use your PhD to get yourself a sponsored work deal in Silicon Valley, and work there at least for a few years to fill the resume with fancy names. The work will be terrible and the pay will barely keep you afloat with the cost of living there though. Alternatively, if it is something defence related there are options there too.
Experience > qualifications.
Agree. I know two people with experience yet never went to uni that would sh*t all over any MBA with no to little experience (Finance job).
as someone who's works force is 75% PHD graduates,
i can tell you
no1. my lowest paid PHD employee earns 65k a year + super. fresh graduate,
no.2 PHD does not make your work ready, but if your PHD is worth its salt, you are supposed to be a subject matter expert on that subject. for a legit PHD (especially outside AUS) you spent 3-5 years on ONE topic and YOU have to DEFEND it before you are allowed to graduate and everything you do is Peer-reviewed. quality of it is abit like data, shit in shit out,
Keyword Legit. As with academia,everything is not what is supposed to be, so i would say most PHD now are like bachelor's degrees. its just a piece of paper with a title on top of it. not like what it was
IT PHD has great value, if your topic and supervisor know what they are doing, you could have a project/job/business by the time you graduate.
Why would you get a PhD when you don't have any industry experience?
It depends on your research area. Some areas are in hot demand in the industries, such as ML/AI, maybe parallel programming and distributed systems. Otherwise you might have to go to academia, which don't pay that well, for example postdoc salary in Australia is about 100k only.
If your phd is in the area of AI/ML, then at least 150k as a fresher and at least 250k in 2 years. Try to get into American big tech companies to earn more (Reasarch scientist/applied scientist positions that require phd), these companies have been in hiring freeze for last 1 year, but starting to hire again.
I'm unsure on IT specifically but I wouldn't expect more pay than a grad salary to start due to lack of industry experience. What I would expect is that you should advance faster provided you demonstrate the required technical & non-technical skills.