Hey OzB,
I've been wondering about the typical starting annual salary range for a fresh computer science PhD holder in the industry in Australia. Does having a PhD hold the same value as having around four years of experience?
Would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Note: this is the annual salary of a fresher who doesn't have much industry experience.
Sorry. Let's say Computer science related phd.
according to https://au.talent.com/salary?job=computer+science
you would be looking to start around 90k
Thats not a graduate salary, more like someone with 5+ years of experience. I would say around 80k realistically, then go up faster.
more like someone with 5+ years of experience.
I would say around 80k realistically
You think that the difference between 0 and 5 years experience in this industry is only worth $10k? lol
I work with junior web developers who didn't get a PHD and they're on $100k.
@coffeeinmyveins: Thats because most IT jobs don't need a PHD .. heck most people get by quite easily even without a Masters.. It all depends on the area you go into.
If you get into a research or scientific area your PHD may be worth something however with most jobs it the years and type of experience that reflects salary.
@Ade99: They used to say the same thing about an IT degree in the late 90s .. Once you complete an IT degree then your actual learning starts..
@jazinger23: Very few roles in IT actually require a degree or diploma. It's all about the industry certs. The benefit of the degree is the skills that come out of it plus the ability to jump straight into graduate PM work being farmed out by the big firms like Accenture or PWC.
@Cyphar: If you have a PhD in Computer Science, why don't you just hack into the bank and add some 9s to your balance (and mine too plz)?
@Cyphar: I find that the developers with just the industry certs and no theoritical knowledge have a very narrow skillset.
Mostly stuck in the low level positions and not able to transition. The best ones I have worked with had an excellent grasp of the underlying concepts and was able to easily transition between different technologies and roles.
@jazinger23: I know some hiring managers who look at masters very suspiciously.
Even you couldn't get a really good job in IT with a bachelor's degree why do Masters?
Masters in Australia are not known for great quality they are more aimed at foreigners who have a generic bachelor degree.
Unlikely to put you at any advantage over someone with a bachelor's.
@811b11e8: exactly .. you proved my point that anything higher than a Bachelors is not a requirement for most IT roles .. its the years and type of experience you have that matter more.
@jazinger23: I didnt even do Masters. I did my Bachelor's and never looked back. 6 figures within 2 years. With a PhD you should be inventing programming languages, improving age old algorithms, researching applications for things like chaos theory etc. PhD person should not be moving text left by 1 pixel in CSS for a website no one visits.
@alikazi: exactly .. you proved my point that anything higher than a Bachelors is not a requirement for most IT roles .. its the years and type of experience you have that matter more.
@coffeeinmyveins: Well usually, grad positions are around $60k-80k (developer), and hard to get into in private. Everyone wants someone with at least 4+ years exp.
Once you hit 4+ years, pay go up exponentially based on how good you and how you handle in interviews. And once you have good exp, might as do contract, around $180/hr.
I have hiring developers in both private n public, masters or phd doesn't do much. Usually after developers who can kick start immediately. Unless their phd/masters mean something for the business.
That article says average 90k, don't think so as a grad.
Thats not a graduate salary, more like someone with 5+ years of experience. I would say around 80k realistically, then go up faster.
im no expert on this but im going to guess 5 plus year experience will get you more then a 10k pay rise…..i dare say with 5-6 years experience most ppl would be on the 110k mark at least
@Trying2SaveABuck: True but in SA its around 90k-110k but if you in ACT, can get $180/hr lol depends where you are as well.
@Ade99: If you have a clearence and citizenship Canberra offers can be insane. The market isn't as suppressed by all the recent migration.
I was offered 1600 a day in Canberra on condition I passed clearence. I was only on 650 a day in Melbourne sadly the family didn't want to make the move.
The insane part of the consultancy was obviously making on top of that as it wasn't direct for a client.
A junior campaign analyst who basically uses sql would be on $90k without a degree.
I’d be aiming for the $100k mark but it all depends on what OP goes into.
If it’s data science they could get even more.
Then whatever the university pays lecturers, as I doubt it's worth much in the private work force if you gained one before starting that career.
Were you in some top secret government phd program so you can't tell us specifically what you specialised in?
Next question then: can you code?
It sounds like I'm being facetious, but I'm not. You'd be shocked at how many Computer Science PhDs actually can't.
when I was a TAFE teacher I was told some prospective students wanted exemption for my basic spreadsheet Excel classes -
three South Asian guys walked in saying they had Masters of Computing from some upstairs university (you know - pay the money, no need to attend, they hand you your certificate),
I started to ask them a first basic question 'how do you create a formula in Excel ?' - their leader burst out in consternation 'Sorry Sir - We Never Touched A Computer!!!'
@Hangryuman: If you don’t use excel, you forget about it. If they have any idea you just google what you need to figure out.
Your not being facetious at all. I lost count of the number of graduates I interviewed in my 30 plus year engineering career, including Phd graduates. Quite frankly, a Phd dosen't carry the weight it may have years ago and certainly does not guarantee the abilities or skills of the individual. Having read applications from Phd holders with spelling mistakes and poor grammar I would ask a more fundamental question - can you write and communicate effectively ? This is probably the most fundamental requirement of most desk based jobs, and yet you would be surprised how many of today's university graduates can't. A sad reflection of the poor quality candidates coming through, and our screwed up education system. Rant over.
@howdy: I wouldn't expect a PhD to necessarily be good at coding. Most of coding is learning the code patterns, libraries, and functions which work best in a specific language or group of languages. I would expect a PhD holder to be capable of thinking through a problem, researching, and finding a solution. People tend to think that universities are trade colleges (because that's what we're turning bachelors degrees into), but university is supposed to be where you learn how to learn, learn the basis of technologies, and that prepares you to actually learn how to do a specific job.
@macrocephalic: Your right - theoretically. Tertiary education should (ultimately) be about providing the necessary skill set to enable graduates to learn do a specific job in their chosen field(s) post university. But if my experience is any indication, thats not what is happening. Our education system is failing dismally.
@howdy: It's kind of funny how you say a lot of phd holders have poor grammar and yet you constantly write "your" instead of "you're"….
@howdy: A lot of people write on ozbargain while on the shitter, it's hardly represents how they would write in a professional setting.
A PhD in what?
I'd expect someone with a PhD in medicine might command a higher salary than one in classical literature
In computer science. Updated.
But what? CompSci is a big field. Your PhD in Machine Learning won't be useful in an MSP and run services. Your skills in programming language research won't work in a consulting shop where you just need a product deployed and sell.
Dr Jimbo with a Phd in "Keating" seems to be doing OK ….
Same salary just as any other graduate. Unless you finds a niche market that gain some edge out of your phd.
Agreed
More importantly, what salary would YOU expect as a fresh computer science PhD holder?
I feel its more than hes been offered.
Computer Science is a huge field, while a "PhD" is an extremely limited single focus area of study :/
If your PhD is in the ADA programming language, then it's worth zero (the world has moved on) …
If your PhD is in machine learning hardware deployment and API development, then it's probably a $200k job with multiple big multinationals …
If your PhD is in Quantum Programming, Google once had a position for $1million per year advertised …
I agree for the most part. Unless you have a very niche skill in demand or have 1-2yrs worth of experience in a related capacity, hard to pull $200k (except may be with Google, Meta and the likes) but $150/160k is very reasonable and would recon is the median.
Might hire you on the service desk if you have good customer service skils
Next time I call ABB tech support OP might answer.
Not sure what the "scammer" help desks are paying now…..I suspect very target focused
The only job a PhD qualifies you for is working in academia.
For most entry-level industry jobs a PhD makes you look vastly over-qualified. You'll have no relevant work experience compared to your peers. You'll be assumed to have unrealistic salary expectations and to be unmanageable and untrainable because it will be assumed that you think you already have all the answers.
Unless your field of study is commercially bankable, in which case you're already aware of this and are right now fielding generous job offers from begging recruiters, I suggest de-emphasizing the qualification as best as you can.
The most practical outcome here is that you manage to pick up a few short term casual contracts at whatever standard take-it-or-leave-it rate the labour hire company is willing to offer. After stacking up a few short term contract positions your qualifications will gradually become less of an issue.
What field do you work in, out of interest?
I will say, however, that you appear to misunderstand what happens when studying for a PhD though. PhDs aren't designed to, and in fact don't, give you any job ready skills at all.
Regardless, if OP needs to ask the question he isn't researching in one of those specialized fields that is likely to be actually bankable.
"The most likely way into a ____ job is to obtain a PhD in a mathematical discipline such as Physics, Engineering or CompSci."
"You will be a great problem-solver, with a proven ability to deliver the best possible results for the organisation, showing determination, resourcefulness, and a sense of purpose in achieving this as well as have advanced knowledge of SAS, R, Python, SQL, and Excel"
@star-ggg: You're quoting university advertising there, aren't you… and seriously, "advanced knowledge of SAS, R, Python, SQL, and Excel?" We're seriously including Excel here as a bankable skill for a PhD graduate? All of those you can get from a TAFE certificate.
Here's another one for you "Our graduates are in-demand - and they’re successful in securing employment across a diverse range of industries. With a Bachelor of Arts, you’ll develop career-ready skills including: creative and analytical thinking, communication expertise, and leadership."
@AngoraFish: It's directly from a current job ad.
As for PhDs thinking they know everything, look up the Dunning-Kruger effect. They are the least likely group of people to claim they know everything about their field because they have experienced how far it is.
Edit: You'll be surprised how much Excel still runs our world
@star-ggg: The first sentence doesn't fit, you've mixed in some kind of career advice website there. Although this is the job we're quoting from, right? Senior Quantitative Analyst (Credit Risk)? The one that says nothing about needing a PhD, just "tertiary qualifications in actuarial, mathematics, statistics, econometrics, or other related quantitative discipline".
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/senior-quantitative-analy…
The one that requires "3+ years relevant experience in a similar role and be an experienced mathematical, statistical modeller with a proven background in retail and/or non-retail credit risk modelling or model validation covering Internal Ratings Based (IRB), provisioning and scorecard models."
And that also requires "demonstrated experience in stakeholder management and ability to communicate with influence coupled with excellent written and interpersonal communication skills".
Also, I don't think you understand as much about the Dunning-Kruger effect as you think you do. Perhaps you had intended to offer us an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action?
Edit: You'll be surprised how much Excel still runs our world
Haha this comment hits hard. Not even VBA, just spreadsheets…
Have you done a technical PhD? unless you have done one it is difficult to understand what skills it brings. If you think they are useless for any job other than academia then your concept of what jobs people do is limited
You don't need to convince me mate. The people you need to convince are managers, HR departments and recruiters.
You're correct, however, in saying that unless you've done a technical PhD it's difficult to understand what skills it brings. The problem you have to overcome here is that most managers, HR departments and recruiters haven't done a PhD, technical or otherwise.
Also, don't take my word for it, see for yourself the near unanimous position expressed in this thread by many of the people responsible for hiring graduates, not to mention the weight of thumbs from lurkers. Ultimately that's really all you need to know about society's perception of the employability of recent PhD graduates who lack real world work experience.
My point was you are applying for the wrong jobs if the managers, HR and recruiters think there is a no value to a technical PhD for that job. Now, whether there are many jobs in Australia where that value is required and sought after is another matter. The Australian economy is quite provincial and limited in high end technology development so those R&D roles are also limited.
The people in this thread who share your opinion are also statistically unlikely to be responsible for hiring graduates to work in R&D technology areas as it is a niche part of the Australian economy.
As an example if you were the hiring manger for rocket company looking for a entry level role assisting in the engineering design of a rocket engine, which engineer candidate would you prefer - someone with a 3 years work experience in engineering project management or someone who did an experimental PhD in rocket propulsion? the phd experience and knowledge would be more valuable than "on the job" experience in some tangentially related industry. If the role required project management skills rather then technical skills than sure, the other candidate might be better. The point is, the job is one where the PhD provides a big advantage. Also there are likely to be ~50 project management engineering type jobs for one R&D job in Australia.
Also, I would not put much weight on the "weight of thumbs", people generally don't have a good idea what a PhD is and may think it is some elitist concept which they have tall-poppy reservations about.
@qvinto: Again, you don't need to convince me, but in any case we seem to be making the same argument.
My first post literally makes the same point in the third paragraph. If "your field of study is commercially bankable" you are likely to be "right now fielding generous job offers from begging recruiters".
This thread is about everyone else. These everyone else:
https://www.monash.edu/news/articles/australian-phd-graduate…
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/australian-phd-fun…
Look at government agencies. The ones who do R&D in the comp sci field. Should get you a decent salary with a PhD. Probably >100k. 4 years of work experience is way more valuable in software than 4 years of PhD. I honestly can’t imagine why anyone would bother with the PhD
unfortunately PhD can easily be beaten by experience…
PhD in stack exchange
unfortunately experience can easily be beaten by skills and talent
Skills come with experience, and nobody has “talent” in a technical field right off the bat. They may have an aptitude for it but they still need experience to develop skills.
All things being equal - it can't.
The point of a Phd is to get research experience
Especially in IT where industry certs are king
PhD with no relevant work experience is going to be a huge hurdle to overcome. Take whatever job you can get. Rise or move on 2 years later.
As a hiring manager a PhD is good for academia and applying for grad programs. Experience, proven work ethic and a good culture fit will trump it
Maybe if what you want to do is simple stuff.
High level stuff requires PhD knowledge and detailed information.
I think the same. A PhD with no work experience would make me very careful. Did they fail in academia, or might they abandon a job and flee back to uni.
I know a really top shelf researcher/developer who moved to industry when they wanted a change from low pay and uni politics. I also worked with a guy who was an absolute astronaut, so high up he couldn't do work, only provide 'consulting'.
I work with a PhD who is really good at his job, doesn't like to talk about it much, and was promoted at the same cadence as guys with bachelors who were equally good workers. In his case, he hasn't been held back due to it, but it doesn't seem to have changed his career trajectory at all.
Itll be the same as a grad without a degree.
Masters and phd's in this day and age rarely get you further in the industry let along additional pay. Some of the most inefficient people i've worked with had PHD's
They just didnt seem to grasp the fact that time is critical and tended to overthink/overanalyse situations. Great for academia, not for industry
They just didnt seem to grasp the fact that time is critical
It's unbelievable just how optional some of the deadlines are in academia. Students, staff and researchers alike all seem to act as if submission/reporting dates are just guidelines that can be delayed or moved around on a whim ("Just takes an email to 'so and so'."). And they're right.
A lot of them get a rude awakening out in working industry though, when they try that same nonsense and abruptly learn that deadlines exist for a reason.
I would not expect you to earn much as a person with a PHD should know how to do the research in order to find the answer to the question asked.
That's exactly what they're doing in this thread?
By the responses maybe OP should have asked this question before taking on extra study time and HECS debt.
PhD's incur no HECS
Do you have to pay upfront? I'm sure they're not free unless they are sponsored by the uni?
They're not free unless you get some form of scholarship to pay for the place. It's very rare that anyone would do a PhD without one. Better to just not do one in that case.
There are scholarships for international students too so they are usually free for them as well, though there are much stricter deadlines for their completion
@MS Paint: Sorry yes there's more nuance to what I said. The scholarship is called RTP and pays course fees and a living stipend of AU$29,863. As above, it makes little sense to do a PhD without RTP funding.
If you got a PHD in computer science you need to study law. Why waste your time competing with other standard grads.
Are you good enough for FAANG? if so, expect $150k plus easily. The VC money is flowing into AI at the moment but Aus doesn't have AI companies so I think you should pack your bag and move to SF.
Unless OPs PHD specifically dealt with something in AI, there is zero chance they are getting a $150k+ salary job with 0 experience at FAANG.
You can already make 150k as a new grad at FAANG, no PhD required.
prolly be hard to get a job than a undergrad as employer prolly think you are over qualified.
Someone who has done a PhD is probably not going to be entering a 'normal' entry-level comp sci job, they would probably have some area of specialisation that would attract an some weird niche.
Note: this is the annual salary of a fresher who doesn't have much industry experience.
But if they didn't have anything really compellingly detailed than "PhD" then I can't personally see it commanding much of a salary advantage at all over any other graduate coder.
Off the top of my head, I've only met a handful of people with PhDs in tech. They were very senior, very well paid, but that was because they were very good at what they did and not because they had PhDs. The degrees were just another facet of them being very driven. And their jobs made absolutely zero use of their additional academic qualifications.
Someone who has done a PhD is probably not going to be entering a 'normal' entry-level comp sci job
This is the attitude of a lot of younger people, fresh out of uni, with their basic degrees. They think they should be starting on a higher salary and they're too good for the entry-level jobs with low salaries. Then they complain that they can't find a job. The majority eventually learn that everyone has to start somewhere.
If your PhD wasn't in something specialised like Artificial Intelligence, Machine Learning, Mathematics, etc. then you're basically at the same level as someone with an undergrad degree. Computer Science is very broad, so that in itself won't garner any more pay. You need to specialise.
Unless the PHD is highly related to your job, absolutely nothing. You might get counted as having about 1 year of experience, but I doubt even that.
The skills you're expected to have with a few years experience aren't the same as the ones you develop in a PHD so it's not related.
I would honestly take someone who spent 3 years working in retail over the PHD in an unrelated specialty.
Just to add, Australia is very broad, salaries vary by location. I made close to 3x as much when moving from the Gold Coast to Sydney as a developer. In Sydney, the big companies that had grad programs were starting developers around the $80k mark, this was back prior to Covid, I'm not sure what the current market sitation is like. A PhD would make no difference. In a lot of fields in IT, experience is what matters.
If money is the motivator, 5 years of industry experience is worth a hell of a lot more than 5 years working on a PhD.
Big respect OP getting a PHD.
I’d check glassdoor for the company and position.
If it is in cyber security, AI, ML, then you should be getting 6 figures if your research is relevant and important to the position at hand. Unfortunately if it is not of great relevance, then in such a scenario you may not be able to get a great deal more than what a regular bachelors graduate would earn for the same position. It ultimately comes down to the role and how hard it is to find someone that can do it.
Unless the PHD has direct correlation to a role, it has less value than someone with any sort of experience in the role being hired for
No experience = crap pay.
PhD or not, you are completely unproven and have no real world experience. Whoever hires you is taking a big risk… so your pay will be commensurate with your experience.
Different story 5 years down the track though, once proven.
But give me the choice between a bookworm with a PhD, or a graduate with 4-5 years check-able experience- and the later wins every time. They'll also be able to demand a much higher pay.
Data experience? CSIRO recruiting a lot of data analysts for telescope data.
MBB and other consultants regularly recruit PhD and pay alright. Comp sci probably useful there.
Once a year the office of the chief scientist recruits PhDs for policy work at an APS6 level. You've missed this year though.
IP Australia recruits grads and a PhD will be useful there (full training provided)
If you're having trouble finding work at a salary you're happy with you can check out the cheeky scientist. A (for profit) company who helps PhDs get jobs. A bit US focused though.
depend on what you studied