Do You Support Australia's Submarine Policy?

GG57 on 15/03/2023 - 15:41

I won't bother posting any links to media reports about the Australian governments recent announcement regarding its submarine policy and related purchase agreements, so as to not taint the discussion with one media slant vs another.

My view - I with Paul Keating on this and think that this is a really bad decision on any number of fronts.

  • The costs are huge. I know we are talking decades away, but that just means we are only really guessing what the actual costs will be. As well as somehow finding the money for this, it likely means that funding for other things is likely to be detrimentally impacted (e.g. social housing, health, education, environment, etc.)

  • Do we actually need submarines? Most dialogue is around the "threat" from China, but I can't really think of any reason why China would engage in a war with Australia, or with our closest neighbours. I've seen reports that suggest China probably won't even push to take over Taiwan, given the perceived global effects of doing that.

  • As we wait decades for the submarines to be built and delivered, we are apparently to host US nuclear submarines as a stop-gap measure. I'm pretty sure that is against our nuclear-free Pacific treaty obligations and, if you believe China would be aggressive in the future, make us a nuclear target.

  • We will apparently need to deal with nuclear waste in the future.

Poll Options

  • 412
    I'm all for it
  • 701
    I'm against it
  • 55
    I don't care
Financial

Comments

      • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 17:13
        -1

        Wow i wasnt aware you had access to all the spy information of the Five Eyes.

        I suppose you knew when, where and how Putin was going to invade Ukraine months before it happened.

        Maybe its me, but i wouldnt trust your opinion on anything… if i had a medical matter i ask doctor or surgeon who has real qualifications from a real authority.

        You dont know shite about international matters, the nonsense you see on the news is nothing, look at the news about Ukraine by the time they reporting it, it was old news to the intelligence services.

        • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 20:12

          I wasn't aware you were aware what everyone person posting here watches or reads as far as news. Kudos to your 6 eyes.

          I'm overwhelmingly glad you don't trust my opinion on anything, it would mean we have something in common, which frankly stands my hair on end.

          • Speckled Jim on 17/03/2023 - 11:52

            @Protractor: Yeah, well 'ol six eyes is enjoying the view from the box.

            Apropos of nothing, a strange mix of syntax, commentary and join dates on OzB in recent years. This must be what success tastes like!

          • CowFrogHorse on 24/03/2023 - 18:19

            @Protractor: i dont need to know what the average person reads or watches…

            its common sense to deduce that the average person cant possibly know more than the 5 eyes…

            then again feel free to share where anybody on ozbargain made a statement that Putin was going to invade Ukraine a year in advance.

            • Crow K on 31/03/2023 - 17:32

              @CowFrogHorse: I don't see why you're being so aggressive, it was a valid question. Are you just lashing out because you're confused?

              I really wish you wouldn't be so toxic and negative with people like this - especially when we've all been so patient with you.

              Sort yourself out before you try to work out others, yeah?

  • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 14:34
    +2

    I can just see an influx of 'support' votes arriving when the US embassy gets wind of the Ozbargain democracy in action.

    • xdigger on 16/03/2023 - 14:42
      +1

      Its a sad day for Australian democracy when despite the electorate being against a bad idea the elected government still seemingly pushes for it.

      How are we different from a communist dictatorship, and what democratic values are those submarines supposed to protect when we already have a government that bows to US/UK pressure and goes against the wishes of its people?

      • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 14:46
        +2

        I think 'real' Labor party people share your views, but I guarantee they won't be asked,either.
        The fwits in the current govt are professional politicians. It's clear they have no moral compass, let alone functioning intellect.
        No fan of the cooker movement, but I think AUKUS just created a whole lot of people question WTF 'sovereignty' means any more.

        • xdigger on 16/03/2023 - 14:52
          +3

          Interesting take. I agree this AUKUS deal is not likely a sovereign decision in our own best interests, rather we have ceded sovereignty and our tax coffers to be used by the US and UK.

          We are a a resource-rich large country and the US and Europe is treating us as such, not unlike colonial times. The 368b sum is just a job guarantee Australia pays to keep to keep American military industrial jobs safe at the expense of Australian taxpayers.

          • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 15:19
            +1

            @xdigger: Creating jobs is just capitalist speak for 'creating tax', creating mortgages, creating more impacts on the things we have failed to get on top of with the current circumstances. We simply cannot war or breed ourselves into a better place. Total dumbf**ery. We need to do the exact opposite. At a time for making friends we are making enemies. At a time (running out) we are accelrating cliamte change and savaging our environment
            And enemies with the very nation that if decided to just stop all inward trade immediately, would cripple us.
            I doubt the Yanks will let us default this deal or this debt. That is pure sacrificing of our sovereignty (and sanity)

            Isn't it ironic that the exact same Canberra crew will say on one day that our natural resources are our greatest resource, and next week 'our people are'. That indicates to me we are worth dirt

            Hard to explain how quickly the brains fell out of the heads of the govt virtually overnight. Brown paper bags or a threat to have a holiday in Gitmo? Who knows, but it is not the ALP we all know. PK was 110% correct. Wong & Albo chose to out warmonger the right wing LNP moon units, but forgot to let go of the idea post election. They have allowed Dutton to call the shots. More lunacy to come, but it cannot possibly out lunatic this suicide mission

      • Prosp24 on 16/03/2023 - 16:57
        +1

        When you have two political parties, but their small aims are to be so similar that you can barely tell them apart, is that still democracy? They even seem to wine and dine the same

      • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 17:15
        -1

        Yeh what do you think the electorate would have said about helping Ukraine, one month before the invasion last year ?

        I suppose you know everything about international matters from weapons to thoughts of Putin and all the other arsehole dictators around the world.

        Most people are morons, feel free to ask for examples, eg: Vaping and smoking and drink driving.

  • charkwayteo on 16/03/2023 - 14:40
    +5

    Just a money grab - a tax we have to pay to be apart of the Uncle Sam alliance, as are all NATO members who have to give up a % of their GDP to basically buy more arms from the US.

    Guaranteed revenue stream for the military industrial complex, fear/warmongering is great business.

    If defense was a genuine concern, I'm sure $400 billion (which will blow out to probably quadruple that) could be better allocated in something that might come sooner than a decade.

    • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 14:50
      +3

      Are we NATO though, or does AUKUS make us proxy NATO,now?

      Fair point on the time frame. Why not just arm the entire population?
      We can do what America does. Practise on each other till the bad guys arrive.

      Seriously, I think the US has infiltrated our military advisors,intelligence agencies, etc. Even the ex officer brigade are saying suspiciously similar things, almost like reading from a teleprompter.

      This deal and the discussion around it will suck the wind out of everything 'climate change'.

      • charkwayteo on 16/03/2023 - 15:15
        +3

        Yeah - AUKUS would be that proxy arrangement.

        I think you're spot in what's happening to our govt and military, sad to say.

        It would be great to see a bit of sovereignty and backbone from our politicians and government, but they're obliged to follow a certain arrangement by forces unknown (let's not kid ourselves) otherwise they'll be slandered by media and probably find themselves conveniently out of office.

      • Speckled Jim on 17/03/2023 - 10:57

        Part of that script has long been to use "technological solutions" to achieve net-zero/tackle climate change. The brilliance of this statement — used over and over by several Coalition members for years — is that it resembles kicking the can down the road.

        What it could also mean (ie the real meaning) is that regardless of fusion becoming reality or not, our mates in the media will help convince you of a nuclear inevitability.

        When we question democracy in this context, we often forget about the long-standing agreement of bipartisanship when it comes to security matters. That leaves plenty of latitude for polarisation in the areas of social and fiscal policy.

        It is that bipartisanship that opens a very important policy door for the Coaltition. The argument will shift to "well, we have nuclear powered Naval vessels that are critical to ensure our national security. We have an abundance of raw materials, and so to ensure our sovereign security capacity, we need to develop an atomic energy plan as a matter of great urgency".

        Something like that. I'm no speech writer!

        • Protractor on 17/03/2023 - 11:13
          +1

          This article is long of tooth, but sharp of tongue.
          https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/sa/sa_99sem04.html

          Read it if you can, but focus on the last cpl paragraphs. In short if we 'manipulate' the small print of the NPT, countries around us will begin to question it's worth. If Indonesia joins the nuclear arms race than our risk by way of the AUKUS amplifies.
          There is nothing in AUKUS that creates regional stability. The opposite is true.
          Indo is already filling front pages of their main media with critiques.
          AUKUS can rightly claim to tip the balance, but it is also creating diplomatic tensions that could and probably will bite us on our arse.
          The concept of more weapons = less harm? How's that 'really' going for the US?
          Interesting that Albo has woken up today and NOW he feels the need to explain himself. Meh.

  • lostgoat on 16/03/2023 - 14:57
    +3

    I can guarantee already the 2 parties will lose a lot support at the next election . Only problem is the independents are crap . What is the cost of the get out clause ? 10-15 bil I'd take spread over 20 yrs.

  • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 15:08
    +2

    Submarine deal costs $368B. Australia's total tax revenue each year is about $550B. The entire economic output of the Australian people is going to be tied up for 8 months to pay for 8 submarines. Are you personally happy to work for 8 months of your life for 8 submarines?

    • xdigger on 16/03/2023 - 15:11
      +3

      Given our Government and particularly Defence's history of blowing out whatever budget we set by 2 to 3 times (like the Collins-class submarines), the $368 billions budget is more likely to be $1 trillions by the end of the day.

      Australia will likely be very broke by then, and income taxes on future generations of Australians will likely be closer to 60%.

      • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 15:15
        +1

        Yes you're right, which makes the situation even more depressing. Dunno how they think they are going to fund these subs + a widescale renewable energy transition + pay for our existing $600B government debt + increasing welfare bill + the incoming Stage 3 tax cuts.

    • GG57 on 16/03/2023 - 15:18
      +1

      I don't think we will need to pay $368b. up front, or even in one year. More likely to be amortised across the decades.

      • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 15:20
        +1

        Yes I'm aware of that, but the cost is the cost, and we'll have to pay interest on the debt as well which will be quite unpleasant given economic experts believe we'll be living in a relatively high interest rate environment for a long time.

        • GG57 on 16/03/2023 - 15:21

          Of course, not disputed.
          But the way you represented the debt / income is invalid.

    • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 17:17
      -1

      Why would you think the $368B would be paid in one go ?

      And you wonder why the public werent consuled when they say braindead statements like yours.

      You dont have a clue…

      • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 20:07

        Lol talk about brain dead, you're a winner. Why does it matter whether it's paid in one payment or over time? $368B is still $368B when you take into account the interest paid on the debt, and it will be debt. Just because the 8 months of lost GDP won't happen in one year doesn't mean it won't happen, we'll all be paying 8 months worth of taxes over our working lives to pay for it.

        GDP per person is declining, so we won't be 'inflating away the debt' either.

        Duh…

        • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:10
          -2

          dogrule: Why does it matter whether it's paid in one payment or over time? $368B is still $368B when you take into account the interest paid on the debt, and it will be debt.

          cow: It shows you dont have the intelligence to even think how big things are done. You dont have the intelligence to stop and think what actually make ssense, and this meeans you thoughts on many other parts of this puzzle are broken.

          You are completely lost and have no idea.

          • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 20:13

            @CowFrogHorse: All you've done is thrown insults at me with no actual arguments to support your view.

            The true mark of the brain dead.

            • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:34

              @Dogsrule: dog: All you've done is thrown insults at me with no actual arguments to support your view.

              cow: i wasnt insulting you i was making a perfectly valid observation. Those words are not insults they have a meaning, it might not be positive but i was using them for that purpose.

              Sad that you think they are only an insult.

              • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 20:39

                @CowFrogHorse:

                cow: i wasnt insulting you i was making a perfectly valid observation.

                You've made no observations whatsoever, whereas I've at least presented some factual figures regarding project cost and tax revenue figures.

                That's the difference between you and I - I present facts, you just have opinions.

                Facts don't care about your feelings snowflake.

                • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:42

                  @Dogsrule: dogs: You've made no observations whatsoever, whereas I've at least presented some factual figures regarding project cost and tax revenue figures.

                  cow: I wouldnt call asking wehether the gov has to pay $368B at once a fact, when it is clearly wrong ?

                  • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 20:49
                    +1

                    @CowFrogHorse:

                    I wouldnt call asking wehether the gov has to pay $368B at once a fact, when it is clearly wrong ?

                    HA, I didn't say that at all! Go on, post the quote where I wrote that, I bet you can't. You have to pay for it over your lifetime (plus interest) and it will come in the form of either higher taxes or reduced government services or both.

                    I can't believe you don't understand that, you must think productivity grows on trees.

                    • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:51

                      @Dogsrule: dog: HA, I didn't say that at all! Go on, post the quote where I wrote that, I bet you can't

                      cow

                      Submarine deal costs $368B. Australia's total tax revenue each year is about $550B. The entire economic output of the Australian people is going to be tied up for 8 months to pay for 8 submarines. Are you personally happy to work for 8 months of your life for 8 submarines?

                      Your words clearly imply you think every australian is going to work th next 8 months to pay the $368b.

                      ~

                      dog: I can't believe you don't understand that, you must think productivity grows on trees.

                      cow: feel free to QUOTE a single sentence where i used the word productivity.

                      i never have, why are yo dishonest and invent words i have clearly never mentioned ?

                      • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 20:56
                        +1

                        @CowFrogHorse:

                        Your words clearly imply you think every australian is going to work th next 8 months to pay the $368b.

                        Wow, if that's what you got from my statement you need some lessons in reading comprehension. The 8 months of tax is amortised over your working life just like every other big government project, it's so obvious.

                        I honestly didn't think I'd come across somebody who would need that spelled out explicitly, but congratulations, I guess.

                        • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 21:01

                          @Dogsrule: dog: Wow, if that's what you got from my statement you need some lessons in reading comprehension. The 8 months of tax is amortised over your working life just like every other big government project, it's so obvious.

                          cow: you clearly said the "NEXT 8 MONTHS"… that clearly means the next 8 months of the upcoming year. There is only ONE meaning that can be taken from using those words.

                          Now that you have noticed your mistake you are trying to pretend you mentioned other words, which you clearly did not.

                          Be honest admit you made a mistake.

                          • Dogsrule on 17/03/2023 - 16:19

                            @CowFrogHorse:

                            cow: you clearly said the "NEXT 8 MONTHS"… that clearly means the next 8 months of the upcoming year. There is only ONE meaning that can be taken from using those words.

                            Here's my whole comment:

                            Submarine deal costs $368B. Australia's total tax revenue each year is about $550B. The entire economic output of the Australian people is going to be tied up for 8 months to pay for 8 submarines. Are you personally happy to work for 8 months of your life for 8 submarines?

                            Where did I say 'NEXT 8 MONTHS'? Nowhere, that's where. I repeat:

                            Go on, post the quote where I wrote that, I bet you can't.

                            I understand what happened with you now - you saw my comment, didn't like what you saw, your vision went red, you started inserting words that supported your crazed appraisal of my view and then accused me of writing those words that originated in your own mind. And of course you are now going to say "well you didn't write it but that's what you meant!!".

                            Be honest, admit you made a mistake.

        • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:12
          -1

          THe real question you should be asking is WHY is your government wasting tens of billions on stupid mega projects in Sydney for example, that only create more chaos and wasted time.

          • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 20:27
            +2

            @CowFrogHorse: I'm questioning this mega project that dwarfs all the other projects put together. Why are you so emotional about me questioning this project? Are there certain things that you believe people should not be allowed to discuss?

            • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:32

              @Dogsrule: I never said you shouldnt discuss, im simply pointing out that basically everything you will say is wrong because you dont have the knowledge, facts or experience.

              Pretending that you do have the facts and understand is stupid.

              • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 20:35
                +1

                @CowFrogHorse:

                because you dont have the knowledge, facts or experience.

                If that's true, then neither do you. You've presented no facts whatsoever, just thrown insults, so you aren't worth talking to.

                • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:39

                  @Dogsrule: dogs: If that's true, then neither do you.

                  cow: Did i claim i know ?

                  Can you actually copy / paste a single sentence where i said i know, or are you just inventing lies ?

                  I dont know thats why i trust experts.

                  Thats why fake doctors who peddle fake medicine are evil, because they waste sick peoples time when they should be getting help from real doctors.

                  It a safer bet to ask a real doctor than a fake selling aroma therapy etc.

                  ONly a fool thinks they know everything, admitting you dont know is often a smart choice.

  • Dogsrule on 16/03/2023 - 15:12
    +2

    Oh and one more thing - as the meme says, I'm old enough to remember when the Left were anti war and anti Big Pharma. Guess most of the political landscape and Australian society are Right leaning now.

    • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 15:22
      +1

      Yes, we have become right wing by default and by way of our immigration focus.
      Dick Smith for president.

  • Cluster on 16/03/2023 - 15:20
    +2

    I just wish we could come together as nations and agree to stop wasting trillions of dollars on defense against one another. But that will never happen.

    Security assurances and alliances are ultimately just a piece of paper that can be torn up at any time. Being able to defend yourself against threats is vital for any large country.

    • GG57 on 16/03/2023 - 15:22
      +2

      I agree.
      Do you think that these submarines will actually defend us, and if so from whom?

      • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 16:16
        +4

        Ourselves. Our fear. It's a BIg FAT lie. They may as well be jumpy castles or bean bags

        Just like America, the armoury is there to fuel the fear. Build the pressure. Grow the anxiety.

        The 'the more guns each citizen owns' the safer we are and the less gun fatalities we will endure'.
        How is that plan going?

        I think the world has manifestly overestimated the actual reality of America having the capacity to bring a global war victory home.
        Clearly China, Russia and N Korea are not quaking in their boots, and do what they want. Did China usurp Hong Kong or not. What did America do? Call in the ambassador? Boot scoot to Billy Ray Cyrus into the main street of HK and Rambo the crap out of anyone?

        We have what America and China both want. Only one of those countries had the motive and opportunity to dine us out on Rohypnol

        We drank that koolaid shit and came back for more

        • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:44
          -1

          As always you missed the point.

          If weapons stop the bad guys without them fighting then they have done the job.

          After all isnt that the best outcome ?

          • RatBargain on 17/03/2023 - 11:11
            +1

            @CowFrogHorse: Yeah and how’s that working for Americans armed to the teeth?

            Anyway who exactly are the bad guys?

            I presume you think AUKUS are the good guys yeh?

  • virhlpool on 16/03/2023 - 16:16

    Irrespective of 'yes' or 'no' answers, my concern is also with the timeline. In this era of lightspeed, the plan seems to be taking a bit too long for the final outcome. The world isn't going to wait for us, even if we had to use the subs ever.

    • GG57 on 16/03/2023 - 16:21
      +1

      I have it on good authority that other nations will not undertake any additional military spending until we can catch up to them. Oh, that's right, it is only 8 submarines.

  • GG57 on 16/03/2023 - 16:29
    +3

    So the current polling, after ~25 hours, is:
    Support - 199 votes = 35%
    Against - 334 votes = 59%
    Don't care - 35 votes = 6%

    I think our government has a hard sell to get broader support for this.

    • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 16:48
      +5

      Plenty of fear in the tool box. A few rigged fake incidents. Chinese jets stalking innocent Aussies out on joy flights in the S China sea. A few hacked govt depts. Every front page of the MSM saturated with walrus snot for the foreseeable future. TV news manipulated and a rerun of every Rambo film for the gazillionth time.

      I don't think the govt is worried about us at all, what we think or even selling it. Part of SHAFTUS is the provision of the planets greatest bullshit generation industry. Pretty soon we'll be asking to pay more tax, and demand more subs, and please sir, more basketball ,baseball and gridiron competitions.
      Tonite I'll celebrate y'all, by catching a cab to the theater.

      In the real world don't care is probably way higher % and support for too.

      The real hot button issue is what the growing rumble of our neighbours develops into. They have on the doorstep rising sea levels to deal with as well. So it may well be that this plays right into Chinas hands.

    • GordonD on 16/03/2023 - 16:59
      +1

      I think our government has a hard sell to get broader support for this.

      It doesn't need the public to support it. The Liberals signed us up to AUKUS. As Keating told us, Penny Wong signed Labor up to whatever the Liberals foreign policy was. The Murdoch media supports it. Even the slightly-leftish Herald and Age papers ran a anti-China scare campaign. And the ABC is only putting the pro-AUKUS view in its news and main current affairs programs.

      The public can't make something a political issue unless either one main political party supports it or a mainstream media network runs with it. That's how 'democracy works in Australia. And none of them do. Public support or opposition for something is not enough in itself to put something on the political agenda, If it could immigration would have restarted at much lower numbers, because that's what the polls say the public wants. But both sides of politics and the media wants big immigration, so that's what we get. And we can't change it by voting.

      No-one with a mainstream voice except Keating has spoken up in opposition. All the rest of them have to do now is treat the issue as yesterday's news and ignore it. And it quietly goes away.

      A serious mainstream public opinion poll showing strong opposition comparable to the numbers here might re-ignite it. But the easy way to stop that happening is to simply not run one. It will be interesting to see whether they do or don't.

      Alternatively loud dissent in the membership of the Labor Party could, but that's simply not going to be reported. Look at how Malinauskas in SA is positively drooling at getting the spending on the subs there to build them.

      • Prosp24 on 16/03/2023 - 17:15

        Cynical, but sadly not untrue. This country loves its monopolies

        • GordonD on 16/03/2023 - 17:38

          Dutton doesn't care what the public thinks. Albanese's gone defensive. The Murdoch media only cares what Murdoch thinks. The ABC doesn't listen to the wider public on anything.

          But I'll be interested to see what happens at the Herald/Age. They weren't very happy at getting bashed by an overwhelming majority of Letters to the Editor writers who criticised their China-bashing front page series that said China was likely to invade in the next 3 years. Then they got annoyed that they got bashed again by Media Watch. So I'll be interested to see whether they tell their pollsters to ask what the public thinks to see if they've damaged their brand by being too hawkish. And if that's what the result is whether they'll publish it, or shift their ground.

          • Prosp24 on 18/03/2023 - 00:37

            @GordonD: I still find the age to be too one sided in their headlines, and especially in their online moderation (only one-sided comments seem to be overwhelmingly published)
            But surprisingly the letters to the editors are still fantastic and a good read for some wit and a good laugh.
            Its a shame, i cant help but feel that the audience of this section greatly diminishes with time, along with literacy and critical thinking skills.

  • Herbse on 16/03/2023 - 16:29
    +3

    In the 1940s this would have been a good idea.

    $300B should be spend on cybersecurity. Not outdated bath toys.

    • franco cozzo on 16/03/2023 - 16:36

      …yeah…..what we need is to spend more money on, is mass surveillance & invasive data accumulation of ordinary citizens trying to go about their business!!!
      cause we dont have enough of that already!!!

  • Kamsi on 16/03/2023 - 16:43
    +3

    I'm pretty sure 10yrs time the Chinese will invent a weapon that will make both conventional sub or nuclear sub obsolete. What would happen than.

    • GG57 on 16/03/2023 - 16:46
      +2

      Perhaps if that happens in a shorter timeframe, we can then opt out of the deal with the USA and save some money.

      • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 17:09
        +1

        I know it sounds like Scifi, but there is no way on earth this or any govt going fwd would back down on SHAFTUS. That's what makes it such a rancid situation. A few individuals making a lethal permanent, multi generational nightmare decision, and so egotistical, they can't back out lest a bloke on the cross benches calls them a hypocrite. It is unfathomable and unforgivable at every level. And we as citizens are trapped without choice on 2 fronts. SHAFTUS via ALP or via LNP.
        Isn't it handy all this will never be scrutinised by anyone ever. The federal ICA won't have the power or the inclination.
        Why is sucks?
        Who decided, why they did, and what they chose, with whom and for how long is a conglomeration of unjustified misery on future generations. The jobs creation shite is just gross enslavement for the weapons industry. Big mining and resources have showed how easy it is to milk us dry (mainly USA ones).
        This ups the chances of a nuclear accident globally about a hundred fold, and here- in places where it never existed before- it will now be more likely than not, given the time involved

        • Speckled Jim on 17/03/2023 - 11:14

          Who decided, why they did, and what they chose, with whom and for how long is a conglomeration of unjustified misery on future generations.

          That would be former Nutter-in-Command, Scomo.
          He's a Revelationist, so would be doing everything in his power to hasten an "end" of some sort. In the meantime, he and his buddies will profit to enjoy the autumn years.

          Follow the money: divestment from fossils, into renewables and nuclear.

          • Protractor on 17/03/2023 - 11:25
            +1

            @Speckled Jim: Remember when the onion muncher was in full flight commander in chief mode and every second news stop he was surrounded by uniforms? And every cushy post and GG role etc , of his tenure, was given to a uniformed recipient?
            Straya has been completely militarised and our addiction to everything war is stark.
            The infatuation with the ideology has devalued what previous generations fought for. But no-one milks the words ANZAC and mateship more than sleazy opportunistic politicians.
            Yes it tuns out everyone was right about Morrison. What a nasty two faced failure he was.
            Imagine what Dutton has in store

            • Speckled Jim on 17/03/2023 - 12:43

              @Protractor: Well, okay the Mad Monk was often within lice-jumping distance to a flag or uniform. It all wheels around to a 1983-ish (not Orwell, but Fry and Laurie) quote from an army recruitment sketch.
              Easily found online. Last time I quoted it here, a mod removed it!

    • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 17:18
      -1

      Really and your sure because you have how many spies in countless chinese military and tech companies ?

      • Kamsi on 16/03/2023 - 17:23
        +1

        If the Chinese can make a space station and hypersonic missile , I believe they can make anything.

        • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 17:25
          +1

          Rubbish, their rockets are NOT chinese, they are a russian design, go read about it on wiki.

          China cant even build their own passenger plane from scratch. They also cant even make their own cpus.

          They are hard workers, and many but they are not technical leaders.

          • Kamsi on 16/03/2023 - 17:31
            +1

            @CowFrogHorse: How many countries have a space station in space? How many countries have Hypersonic missiles, very few. You preached about how bad their technology are but yet you have not proven that their technology is bad. This is the same people tells me that Korean's car are bad but they haven't got any proof.

            • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 17:37

              @Kamsi: kam:

              How many countries have a space station in space?

              cow:

              Well if they build the rockets that would be impressive but most of their station is recycled Russian design. Just because you pay for something doesnt mean you know how to build anything.

              Im sure you have a car, but guess what you dont know how to make a better car from scratch…

              kam:
              How many countries have Hypersonic missiles, very few.

              cow:
              Probably Russian design like most of their planes etc.

              kam:

              You preached about how bad their technology are but yet you have not proven that their technology is bad.

              cow:
              You dont grasp the difference bewteen building someone else design using their plans, and equipment and experts and making it yoruself from scratch.

              You have no idea of the problems with building lasers, anyone can build a laser, the problem is it requires a lot of power to make it destructive, something that is not a solved problem in any of todays platforms.

              Most if not all that china makes is western technology, so unless the west has already made that weapon they have nobody to steal it from.

              Trains/planes/cars/computers/etc etc

              • Dognosis on 16/03/2023 - 22:30

                @CowFrogHorse: Obviously China could produce a new important technology in the near future.

                No one would be doubting that. Whether it is 10 years or more, who knows.

                Sure they don't lead in many/most areas now, but they sure are catching up in parts it seems.

                Remember that the current mighty USA started out all sneaky and stealing/ ripping off other's technology:

                https://apnews.com/article/north-america-us-news-ap-top-news…

          • NoMoneyNoCry on 17/03/2023 - 00:02

            @CowFrogHorse: Maybe passenger planes aren’t their priority. Look at their metro system. 9/10 of the world longest metro system is in China. And some of their stations put our airports to shame. And their system is maintain and clean, unlike NYC or London where it smells like piss all the time and constantly delayed.

            I don’t understand why western media never reports anything positive about China. It’s all fear mongering and dread.

            And don’t forgot about their High Speed system that’s expanding yearly. It’s truly remarkable. I had no idea it was that impressive had I not done my own research. Western media definitely won’t applaud their achievements.

            There’s many reports and studies that suggest high speed rails are more efficient to carry people and not passenger planes.

            • CowFrogHorse on 17/03/2023 - 07:45
              -1

              @NoMoneyNoCry: All of China's trains are European technology. The Shanghai maglev is German.

              Again Im not denying they are hard workers, but they their trains are not Chinese technology its all European & Japanese.

              • NoMoneyNoCry on 17/03/2023 - 09:37

                @CowFrogHorse: The Fuxing is already based on Chinese Technology.

                • CowFrogHorse on 17/03/2023 - 09:38
                  -1

                  @NoMoneyNoCry: What is a Fuxing ? I have no clue what you just said.

                  • Dognosis on 17/03/2023 - 11:03

                    @CowFrogHorse: I guess they are referring to this:

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxing_(train)

                    A train that has some natively designed aspects to it.

                    Doesn't sound 'based on Chinese technology' though.

                  • NoMoneyNoCry on 17/03/2023 - 11:37

                    @CowFrogHorse: If you don’t know what Fuxing is then why you claim all High speed trains are designed by Europeans?

                    This ignorant is classic western attitude and the point I was trying to make initially.

            • CowFrogHorse on 17/03/2023 - 09:40
              -1

              @NoMoneyNoCry: noMoney: There’s many reports and studies that suggest high speed rails are more efficient to carry people and not passenger planes.

              cow: Cars, Trains, planes and vehicle are stupid. Commuting is stupid.

              Its even more efficient not to travel in the first place.

              Put things near people not far away… prevent travel as much as possible.

              • Crow K on 20/03/2023 - 10:59

                @CowFrogHorse: I don't know why you hate travel so much (I mean, it broadens the mind, could that be it?), but you need to make coherent talking points to get your ideas across.

                You sound like a repetitive child saying the same (unsupported) things over and over.

                You need to read some books and learn to communicate better. It's tiring to see you say this stupid stuff. Do better.

          • NoMoneyNoCry on 17/03/2023 - 12:06

            @CowFrogHorse: International space station is half Russian. And most of the modules and cargos are transported into space by Russian rockets. What does that say about America?

            At least China built their space station by themselves.

  • matt-ozb on 16/03/2023 - 18:15
    +1

    Ukraine ozbargainers might have said NO to supporting their defences a few years ago.

  • ozbargainoid on 16/03/2023 - 18:31

    Quote from Winston Churchill:
    The biggest threat to democracy is having a 5 minute interview with the average voter.

    • tharlow on 16/03/2023 - 18:36
      +4

      Democracy is the choice between two of the same options. If that’s not an illusion, I don’t know what is

    • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 18:41
      +2

      But Winston dear, we have lobbyists now.

      *Besides democracy does not control or define our behaviour. Capitalism does. (that's why we are in this forum of all places)
      That's why it, (SHAFTUS) and not democracy, (or anything linked to it) is driving the pus bucket that is the SHAFTUS balltrap.

  • tharlow on 16/03/2023 - 18:32
    +5

    Julian Assange knows all about Australian “sovereignty.” LOL! Paul Keating is not “unhinged” — far from it. He seems to be the only voice of reason in a sea of fawning, sycophantic, American apologists. Judging by the force-fed media diet of the average Australian, I am not the least bit surprised. I am pleased that he mentioned the Chinese Navy sailing up and down the West and East coasts of the US in their peaceful right to international waters… LOL!

    • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 19:05
      +4

      Yes you nailed it. Wonder if the Chinese Navy was releasing balloons left right and centre?

      Keating , living legend,and the last remnant of credibility in the ALP, threw Albo a lifeline, but he was terminally bereft of any redeeming human qualities by that time. He doesn't even rate as a desiccated coconut Araldited to his chair

      Clearly Big Military America rolled over and had a smoke at Albos bedside months ago.

      • tharlow on 16/03/2023 - 19:23

        Wonder if the Chinese Navy was releasing balloons left right and centre?

        This made me laugh a lot… thank you

  • WT on 16/03/2023 - 18:32
    +1

    the fact that china is pissed off makes me think its a good idea

  • Protractor on 16/03/2023 - 18:45
    +1

    Yes pissing China off is the sensible thing to do. What are you like at ducking and weaving at supersonic speed? Can you keep it up for 50 years non stop?

    While we are at we should 'shirt front' Putin.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 16/03/2023 - 19:08
    -1

    i support spending money on defence and i support the alliance between the AUS-US-UK do i think these subs are the best way to spend money defending our nation, im personal opinion probably not but the military experts seem to support it so who am i to make that call and it will create a lot of jobs - i personally do not think China is our enemy but some of the comments Xi has made about 'bashed heads' of anyone who opposes China is a little worrying but i reckon it was probably taken out of context

    but even if China is not our enemy that doesnt mean these subs cannot be used against other enemies in the future - chances are Russia might want us all dead soon

    im 100 percent with PK about Wong throwing money at people is not diplomacy

    overall i support it - it is a policy with bipartisan support and personally i think we need both major parties too agree on policy that is good policy

  • monky on 16/03/2023 - 19:55
    +3

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
    This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people… This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."

    - Dwight D. Eisenhower

    • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:06
      -1

      Same can be said of hospitals, do you want to close down all the hospitals so that money can be given to feed the poor in Africa ?

      • Crow K on 22/03/2023 - 13:36
        +1

        Equating the wasteful military-industrial complex to hospital spending is a take so bad, only CowFrogHorse could have made it.

        Try to limit yourself to insightful comments in future, should any arise.

        • CowFrogHorse on 24/03/2023 - 18:16
          -1

          big words, from the little 5 year old who only calls people names, because they cant write a complete sentence.

          • Crow K on 25/03/2023 - 01:38

            @CowFrogHorse: Stop calling me a five year old, I'm not, and you're not going to trick me into getting into your van so you can calm that pants python too

            Get back to things you're good at: being taken care of by your NDIS helpers and watching TV

    • CowFrogHorse on 16/03/2023 - 20:07

      BTW:

      Are you sure you agree with all Dwight D's opinions ?

      You might want to read his history before putting him up on a pedestal.

    • RatBargain on 17/03/2023 - 11:24
      +1

      Except those who hold Boeing, Lockheed and Raytheon equities happen to be the same lawmakers and executives who spend, arm and decide on conflict

      Opps by golly, how did that happen? What a lucky/unlucky coincidence

      Oh well nothing to see here

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