Do You Support Australia's Submarine Policy?

I won't bother posting any links to media reports about the Australian governments recent announcement regarding its submarine policy and related purchase agreements, so as to not taint the discussion with one media slant vs another.

My view - I with Paul Keating on this and think that this is a really bad decision on any number of fronts.

  • The costs are huge. I know we are talking decades away, but that just means we are only really guessing what the actual costs will be. As well as somehow finding the money for this, it likely means that funding for other things is likely to be detrimentally impacted (e.g. social housing, health, education, environment, etc.)

  • Do we actually need submarines? Most dialogue is around the "threat" from China, but I can't really think of any reason why China would engage in a war with Australia, or with our closest neighbours. I've seen reports that suggest China probably won't even push to take over Taiwan, given the perceived global effects of doing that.

  • As we wait decades for the submarines to be built and delivered, we are apparently to host US nuclear submarines as a stop-gap measure. I'm pretty sure that is against our nuclear-free Pacific treaty obligations and, if you believe China would be aggressive in the future, make us a nuclear target.

  • We will apparently need to deal with nuclear waste in the future.

Poll Options

  • 412
    I'm all for it
  • 701
    I'm against it
  • 55
    I don't care

Comments

  • +1

    and all the nuclear waste going fwd should be stored either under American Embassy, Parliament House, ALP or LNP HQ or Kirribili House.
    As if America (poosibly UK) won't be topping up our spent waste with theirs.US and UK waste is piling up as we speak. We are a very scrumptious looking depository destination.
    The routes for all the waste streams will not be made public, unless and until there's a major disaster (and maybe not then) AUKUS is a deal about nuclear waste forever, more than it is about 'jobs & growth'.

  • Not a chance in hell, now,>

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-17/productivity-commissi…

    Pretty sure the PC would never be able to provide a cost benefit or defence benefit (in time to make any difference) of AUKUS.

  • +1

    Realistically Australia needs its own military capability to protect its interests and these subs are a groundbreaking advancement compared to what Australia currently has.. and to a certain extent future proofs Australia's defense capabilities and more importantly creates a stronger alliance with key partners in the US and UK, so it makes a lot of sense from a strategic alliance perspective. Furthermore while the subs are going to cost a lot… they will still support local economic output through the local jobs in developing them.

    I do believe a lot of the media coverage around china being a "threat" is headline grabbing exaggeration, however China is still a bit of an unpredictable wildcard - did we all forget their response to Australia around the request for an investigation on the origins of Covid?

    anyways my TLDR perspective:
    - Subs mostly good
    - people need to stop whinging

    • …to a certain extent future proofs Australia's defense capabilities…

      Except they may well be redundant by the time we get them?

      • +2

        Do anyone know that china is developing highly effective UUVs and undersea artificial intelligence (HSU001). In other word "submarines drone" .
        This is why us submarines collides with "unknown" objects in south china sea recently

        By the time we get this aukus submarines in 2040? It will be an old technology.

        • +1

          I posted a cpl of links about the drones yesterday

        • Don't worry with the budget they can develop an anti-underwater drone piece to try and counter their drones in the future to protect the dinosaur . eg remember that company that company that developed that gun that could fire thousands of rounds of bullets a minute. Call em up and put it on the counter drones.

          • +3

            @lostgoat: Yea right, lol, another $500billion project? To protect the dinosaur from extinction event?

      • +1

        Exactly.
        People are talking as though the shiny new subs are imminent.
        The 'real experts' almost unanimously agree that the greatest threat from China to Taiwan is in the 2030's
        The more we get drip fed justifications, the further the deal(trap) stacks up.
        By the time we DO have a full supply, the region is likely to be replete with SE Asian neighbours maxxed out with nukes. So we have no choice but to join them.
        We don't have a very forthright relationship with those neighbours in any way.

        Who would have thought that the re-election of Trump might have a benefit? He might just tear up the KAKTAUS deal.accept

    • +4

      Nothing in recent history is more important to whinge about. The Scomo China virus escape investigation was framed (and taken by the Chinese) as a direct accusation. What's more, why us, why him? Why did the US not demand that enquiry? It was another case of Morrison having no filter to reality and repercussion. That whole scenario is neatly plaited into this deal.
      AUKUS would have been designed long ago by the American war machine and Dutton got smitten while fluffing for Morrison in the USA.

      First paragraph>
      https://www.afr.com/politics/peter-dutton-to-lead-mission-to…

      Turns out the price per head of a couple of hundred refugee re-settlements in the USA is bigger than my calculator can handle
      ( $368B divided by 265? people? = $1.3B each, plus the Weapons Industry Glow In The Dark Submarine Showbag)

      • Yup it's been said out loud by the US corona virus committee hearing 4 days ago that the virus origin is a coverup made by the US. I wonder can the 7 million people who died from the virus sue….

        • The dead ones may have difficulty, but their surviving family have every chance. You only get away with war crimes murder etc if you are a despot or a US president. Trump = both.
          Merrrka loves their litigation and pop guns.
          That said, who the hell would believe anything a US republican said, these days?
          I think the committee is there to crucify Fauci,(get themselves re-elected) not find the real cause.
          Ironically if these republicans had there way,on covid response, a big swag of them would also be pushing up daisies
          The thing big pharma and big weaponry have in common is the origins and overlords and beneficiaries.
          We are now a key player in this .

      • What's more, why us, why him?

        Cos Scomo. I challenge you to picture a more perfect useful idiot.

        Why did the US not demand that enquiry?

        Surely rhetorical.
        Expect Putin's jerkmate to seriously implicate China, a key ally of Russia and largest BRICS economy?

        They're tag-teaming world chaos. Putin took the reigns with the 2022 invasion to keep him occupied till the real Reds re-elect their deranged orangutan.

  • +3

    Here you go guys from AI : What in the future will destroy submarines ?

    The future of submarines is uncertain, as advances in technology could lead to the development of new weapons and tactics that could be used to destroy them. Potential threats include:

    Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) systems, such as sonar, torpedoes, and depth charges.
    Unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) equipped with sensors and weapons.
    Autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs) equipped with sensors and weapons.
    Advanced mine systems capable of detecting and attacking submarines.
    New types of torpedoes designed to target submarines.
    Hypersonic missiles capable of traveling at high speeds underwater.

  • Where is the defence ministry ? I reckon my hard research deserves 1 mil of the 368 bil .

    • +1

      They'd probs slip you the mill to delete your post, LOL.

      Retired colonels 'defence experts' and sitting ministers clearly can't google. There's probably computer games closer to the truth of submarine vulnerabilities than the govts brains trust

  • +1

    The poll is flawed because you posted your opinions before asking for answers. People are hence more likely to agree with your contentions.

    It would have been more appropriate to post your opinions in the comments.

    • +1

      Maybe, maybe not. People are still free to vote,tear it apart or change their minds. It's not an AEC poll.
      Or a piece of legal evidence.It's not propaganda, just the poll owners views as background. he even refrained from linking media .

      Maybe start a thread on the validity of polls. This one's hardly off to the Canberra bubble.
      Mind you, that's where 'knock it out on a technicality' and 'definitely' rigged polls belong.
      Republic anyone?
      Speaking of which, I wonder SHAFTUS received King Charles blessing ?

      For a toe dipping exercise this format is OK ,surely?

  • +1

    As well as putting most of our neighbours offside here's another side affect of AUKUS.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-17/china-xi-jinping-russ…

    • Yeah very stupid of them

      • +1

        For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction?

    • This meeting will likely be more symbolic than anything. It will be interesting to see if the relationship endures when mutual interests (countering the US) cease or becomes reprioritised.

      From the Russia perspective they are making a deal with the Devil. It is no secret that China is conducting a soft takeover of Siberia. Something that Russian foreign policy recognise while knowing they can do little about it at this moment.

      • If and when there is a point that the 'mutual interest' ( countering US ) ceases, We won't be here on Ozbargain pontificating about what a great deal AUKUS was. (which it never was)
        AUKUS is purely symbolic to, until it is delivered in full. By then Musks great g/children will gaming on Mars

        Deals with the devil everywhere then, it seems.
        Let's see which of the key devils our neighbours end up dealing with.

        • -1

          If you can only truly see one way the dynamic changes it explains a lot about your comments.

          • @Hardly Normal: I can see multiple possible scenarios, but a whole lot more applicable probables. So can the neighbours we just pissed off.
            I'm really looking fwd to Rupert publishing images of Penny staring down a room full of glowing hot Indonesian and Malaysian politicians and military men, as she placates them with fawning offers of a discount on Aussie beef and free tickets to the Olympics.

            • -1

              @Protractor: It seems to me that your viewpoint is very Sino-centric at the cost of understanding other mindsets, concerns and desires.

              ASEAN doesn't want to side with either the US or China. It is not within their interests (staying independent) and shows in their foreign policy.

              No-one likes a region becoming 'hotter' but at the end of the day the regional player that poses the greatest threat to ASEAN member's independence and growing economic prosperity isn't Australia, Japan or Korea.

              • @Hardly Normal: Easy to say Sino-centric. Kind of whistling sound about the sound and implication. I'm anti AUKUS anti picking a fight where there wasn't one.Anti having puppets in Canberra on the strings of Americans,uniforms or big commerce.Anti waste, anti nuclear (outside of real medical and passive/safe usage, away from the stupidity of nuclear power and weaponry.
                It's amazing we even get a seat as ASEAN.
                My gut feeling is when the shit hits the fan in the region it will go real base tribal real quick. AUKUS is now the main the threat in that regard.
                If all the 'alternative' or popular mindset is military , even in the eyes of the brainwashed masses, there's only 'one, 1, possible scenario, and , that comes in an array of nasty packages, and it isn't basket weaving or macrame classes.
                My point is both sides of our govt are now using fear and bullshit, and they have been drafted by the US yet again, to throw themselves on a grenade, to prove we care. I don't like or accept the cost, the time frame, the reasons and the predictions on the outcome either.It all came from the uniforms. Diplomacy (as Keating said succinctly) isn't swanning around micro nations (whispering) if they'll be our mates, while Rupert and the govt insults and taunts not only our biggest trading partner. In the end, in a conflict ASEAN won't be sitting around a table any more. By then it will likely be real alliance develop among the true SE Asian nations.
                AUKUS is a big bed to lay in Hardly, and Indo has already made it clear how they feel about that.
                To paraphrase you>

                It seems to me that the govts viewpoint is very US centric at the cost of understanding other mindsets, concerns and desires.See what I did there?

                And more importantly the govt treated us like mugs. That never ends well.

                • @Protractor: To be honest no I don't see what you did there nor what you were trying to do. The more comments you make the more unhinged it reads.

                  I should hand in my OzB card as it was a dumb idea to even engage in this forum topic.

    • -1

      If that wan ker Xi sides with Putin, he can kiss goodbye to his belt and roads initiative as Ukraine is physically integral to it - and Biden's CHIPS act will only just be the beginning of America's response.

      This visit is symbolism only.

  • well the clowns in here acting like china isn't our enemy is very disappointing to read.

    USA is the reason we have been untouchable.

  • TSMC

  • -6

    The moral of the story is "Don't buy Chinese made cars, either petrol or EV".

    Every purchase of them makes them stronger.

    There are many sensible alternatives to sending money to the CCP.

    • Don't buy American products because they fund bombs dropped on Muslims.

      Your logic.

      • -2

        The USA has been our ally for over 100 years, and in particular, our saviour during World War 2.

        I am very happy to buy any and all products made in the USA because they are not threatening Australia, unlike China.

        One of my favourite regular purchases is Aldi/Bramwells Peanut Butter, made in the USA and delicious.

        It won't leave a nasty taste in your mouth.

        I can find you any number of recent direct threatening quotes from Chinese diplomats if you wish to "argue the toss" with me.

        You can't, of course.

        P.S. I don't remember too many episodes of USA nationals taking hostages in Australia like what happened at the Lindt Cafe siege in Martin Place some years ago.

        P.P.S. Do you remember 9/11?

        I do.

        • +3

          You must remember all the weapons of mass destruction they found too.

        • CIA setup I memba.

      • +1

        Your logic - stop supporting a free democracy because they’ve decided they don’t wanna fund a tightly controlled communist regime (that rounds up muslims for “re education”..)

        At least in the US, if the majority of the public didn’t like bombs dropped on muslims, they could vote them out.

        SAIC, parent company of LDV, MG and others, is owned by the Chinese government. It’s a valid point, in that if you don’t wanna send money to the CCP, look elsewhere.

        • There's no proof of "re-education" camps. You have zero understanding.

          There is proof of a 20 year hunt for WVDs and millions of displace Muslims. A real genocide that you failed to voice any opinion to except the government could be voted out lmao.

          • @TightAl: Ahh yes another benefit of democracy is a free press to provide your proof.
            Sadly CCP don’t provide for such a thing.

            You ever hear about Tiananmen Square?

            You got any proof that Apple, Chevy, Ford are actually state owned?

            BTW, I personally probably wouldn’t buy anything from Boeing, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, even though they aren’t state owned.

  • +1

    Should i buy more VAE or hold?

  • +6

    Those subs are stupid and just another way the Aussie government licks the US’s boots. What a waste of taxpayer money and valuable resources.

  • +1

    Well all the big 5 powers are spending billions of dollars to develop and advance their own nuclear subs, one cannot just lable them stupid but expensive true, however, why the US should come to the aid of Australia and defend us if we don't invest in advanced defence when we are able? The nuclear pack tied us more closer to the US with value far beyond military space, I support it 120%.

  • If you are seriously calling out China as a direct enemy and imminent threat and have a house littered with Chinese products, or are a regular Bunnings shopper…..have a smart TV… electronic gadgets…. then there's your answer on principled behaviour.

    • I don't own a smart 'phone, or a smart TV.

      Even products as inconsequential as 2 x CR2032 batteries that I purchased from eBay last week was determined by where they were made which was Indonesia, not China.

      https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/323900656082?var=512932336694

      EVERY SINGLE PRODUCT I BUY is decided on that basis.

      It is not always possible to avoid Chinese products, but I make strenuous efforts to do so.

      • Hi yanks!!! Do you know China is our life saver?? Who save unitted snaked of America from 2008 financial crisis? CHINA!!!!.

        Who is Australia number one trading partners?? CHINA!!!

        Who is brokered iran and saudi Arabic into peace? CHINA!!!!

        Now show me what china had been threatening us?

        Oh you felt threatened, because usd will become toilet paper!?!? I got it!! I got it!! Hahaha
        Because saudi Arabia used petroyuan now

    • Protractor spoken like a true Chinese national.

      • Why? we speak for Australian. Australia is sovereignty country. We didn't speak for any country, we just want Australia become prosperity country.

        Do you know who is going to pay $368 billion? Its me, you, your kids, do you want your income tax increase to 60%?

      • Typical response with no value.
        Why dont you mention Captain America's good work in Afghanistan and Iraq? How about Ukraine?

      • -1

        Haha very typical cheap shot.When a Labor govt sides with the ex Scomo crew, and obeys the taunts of a xenophobe like Dutton, you know something smelling like sun rotted fish has taken place between America, the weapons industry and the govt of Australia.

  • +4

    It's very important for a country to have its sovereignty. Some countries can do this solely via diplomacy… But most can't.
    Therefore, you need the ability to defend yourself. This goes back to tribal days of Hunter gatherers, it's human nature.
    Currently, Australia has hitched its wagon to the USA (USAs might has actually opened the door for safe world trade). However, hitching this wagon means that other alliances are fickle (aka China)
    I'm all for being able to defend the country, but obviously Australia is unable to do this, so why purchase these submarines for an obscene amount of money when we are in such huge debt?
    Mind you, this purchase is likely part of military industrial complex money laundering, like most things are. Drugs, oil/gas, weapons - this is what makes the world turn, we can't be naive about it. All the US "money" going to Ukraine wasn't cash, but military write off's to purchase more weapons from the military industrial complex

    • +2

      It's absolutely about OUR sovereignty. Usurping it to the Yanks based on the fear we will have it usurped by China , driven by fear mongering from within, is a betrayal .
      But when you consider that the whole scale,cost and risk of AUKUS was NEVER validated by the population, it is illegitimate. Since Howards time we have all been hiding under a bed , accepting every (LNP) boogie man story as gospel, and everyone of them has cost the economy, and our social cohesion.
      The only time we DON"T seem to be alert is at the polling booths. The rest of the time we are alarmed.
      I hope AUKUS is blocked.Take it to an election. There's no hurry. (in fact, there's no justification)

      https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/are-australia-s-n…

      • At the next election you'll be able to 'validate' it, or not if that's your wish.

        That's how it works in a parliamentary democracy.

        Both main parties support AUKUS, so if you're opposed to it, your options are limited - with the Australia-hating Greens being your best bet.

        Choose wisely Grasshopper.

        • I wouldn't vote green if my life depended on it. (which it probably does,now) Neither major is opposed to this, so our sovereignty is dead in the water (NPI) So here we are. You make my point. The country has been stitched up. A nightmare deal and no escape. Screwed over by Labor, for the Yank killing machine industry, on behalf of the Liberal Party.

          You can't 'validate' a crime.

          • @Protractor: Cool, you're entitled to your opinion.

            Personally, I'm all for it. The fact that the CCP absolutely hates AUKUS shows that it's the right thing to do.

            I don't think we've been stitched up. I didn't vote for our current socialist government but they are there legitimately and that's how it works. The fact that they are in agreement with the previous government on this shows that they have some responsibility to our country and that's how consensus politics works.

            Interesting times ahead.

            • @R4: During the Vietnam War we used conscription to draft recruits.(I remember the claim we would never ,ever foist that upon our citizens again) Meh

              YANKUS bypasses the marbles and recruits every Australian, every resource,every location into any and every war from hereon in.
              Hate to tell you, but the only consensus was by two 'parties for hire' who played pencil sharpeners for the US military. Dutton initially stitched up this trap, on the trip he imported Covid back to our parliament.
              Hastie et al dog whistled it into the psyche of the public and the effluent factory of the local MSM.
              It's even too simplistic and crass to be called xenophobic.
              The only legitimate consensus, is there is no consensus.
              AUKUS was supposed to be about the region, and yet Indo is rising in temperature, and Malaysia is likely to follow. Do you think that also shows it's the right thing to do?

              • @Protractor: I do.

                I agree with AUKUS and the acquisition of these submarines. Morrison and Dutton did the right thing - as has Albanese and Marles. IMO it's the right thing to do.

                You don't it is. Cool bananas, let's leave it at that.

                • @R4: You can pay then? Deal?
                  ; )

                  • @Protractor: Nope.

                    Like everything that's paid with taxes, we all pay it.

                    There's plenty that our governments wastes tax dollars on that I don't agree with but the only way for me to change that is at the ballot box - life in a democracy.

                    You're welcome to withhold your tax dollars if you so wish though. Deal?

    • +3

      Is there any proper reason as to why so many lives and costs had to be spent on other US wars like afghanistan, vietnam etc?

      There only seem to have been changing excuses around, non existent weapons of mass destruction, impositions of ideology/ways of life on other cultures (vietnam), 'peacekeeping'. Then one day, poof the US pulls out and leaves behind anyone in that country silly enough to have ever supported them or taken their side, with the exception of a few refugees, and of course the media moves on.

      In a capitalist market, how can you sustain a private military/weapon industry without a continuous demand for conflict? if there isn't any, somewhere or another it needs to be created/engineered. A country also cant have the shiniest and newest high tech toys unless it can get rid of the old stock and justify the new major increase in spending.

      Isnt it both an interesting and convenient coincidence that the afghanistan/iraq war ended just before the ukraine war started (not like NATO was trying to expand right).
      Regardless, its another important reason to yet again squeeze more money out of the people, as newer and fancier weapons now need to be funded, the old ones got donated away to ukraine or australia.

      Mind you, not suggesting that having the latest weapons and technology isnt important to a superpower like the US and world stability, we all benefit from the overarching stability. Just more so that what seem to be mechanisms to feed the beast seem pretty messed up, especially to the countries affected.

      • +2

        Yeap. That’s what America is doing to Taiwan. Destabilise the region and start a war.

        It’s in their playbook.

        • +1

          Mate you are on gear if you think any country wants a war over Taiwan. There isn't going to be any winners.

        • Nonsense. When you boil it down, even that as s hat Xi doesn't really want a war if he can get his warped ways without one.

  • +1

    Are we going to get to a 1000 votes?

    Has any other OzBargain poll even gotten close to that? Moderators, that is not a rhetorical question.

    • -3

      What’s wrong with you.

    • 993 last time I looked

      • 1002 votes as of early Sunday morning.

        As I've said elsewhere, which direction the votes went in is important. But the record number of them is also important because it shows that public opinion on the subject is strong.

        • +1

          INSIDERS>
          Marles (what a blithering genius) could not say what the sub price per unit is, could say China until he was almost out of oxygen. 2/3 of Insiders guests were pro. Sheridan is a warmonger infatuated with conflict, & the other journo (male one) was the gut who invited all the hawks the msm could round up to give a loaded decision. Bottom line of that convo and what professor Hugh White has said in multiple media forays, is any war with China now involves us,with or without subs. The AUKUS deal was clearly a US Trojan Horse to turn us into a target, parking bay,nuclear dump, canon fodder factory, diversion.Delivered by none other than a Labor Party. Well done Albo, you stole the devils job.
          Cue Vera Lyn song revival and yellow peril posters…

  • +2

    With Paul on this one; true statesman, makes the current lot seem like non-binary kinder kids.

    • In his speech he referred to Taiwan as a 'so called' democracy and a 'territory'. That's a massive statement as it makes Australia a 'so called' democracy too.

      Yeah, real 'statesman' like.

      Taiwan's democracy, all democracy really is no doubt flawed but it's far, far better than what's on offer across the Taiwan Strait.

      • I'm sure he'd call Australia a so-called democracry also, or perhaps even less, over a cup of tea…

      • +1

        Interestingly, in Democracy Index 2022, Taiwan in its "so called democracy" is ranked 10 and yet Australia ranked 16. However it's not about a competition between Australia vs Taiwan seeing which one ranks better, but the huge discrepancy between Taiwan and China that's ranked 156, making peaceful reintegration of Taiwan into China impossible.

  • I can’t believe how stupid people are on this stupid site.

  • +1

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is strong in this one. That and there are clear attempts at IW the deeper down the comments you go.

  • +1

    Only partially back this, because I would have liked for them to be fitted with nuclear warheads. We can't really be invaded, so to have mutually assured destruction would be a huge deterrent to their belligerence.

    • -2

      Yes sirree go mutual destruction. Win win .A victory to the cookers. Tear down the gummint

  • +1

    These nuclear subs are not for Australia's defence. They are for penning in China.
    We are forgoeing our defence in favour of an all in policy with the USA. We have subjugated ourselves to the US foreign policy. This is a disaster. We should not be dependent on the US we are an independent sovereign state we should be able to maintain and initiate our own best interests.

  • -1

    So what do we truly need in terms of defence? If no pricey subs, then maybe also no expensive planes or warships?

    • +2

      It begins with:

      1. A govt who serves our people
        2 A military who serves the govt > who serves our people.
        Not
        (3) (REPEAT NOT!) a Military who steers a govt, who ignores it's people.

      You can even throw in 'a govt who respects the region in action, not just words'.
      So much goodwill has been undone already , (in such a short time), so it's going to be very interesting and very challenging from hereon in.

    • +2

      So what do we truly need in terms of defence?

      We need a defence force and a defence philosophy that has our defence as its goal.

      Did the Vietnam War serve Australia's defence? Did the Afghanistan War serve Australia's defence? Did the Iraq War serve Australia's defence? Did sending weapons to Ukraine serve Australia's defence? No, our governments chose to tell our military to do that to appease Washington. And every one of them was a disaster. We did no good in any of those countries. We just created misery. And lots of profit for the US war industry.

      The issue of a very expensive sub program is partly about those subs. But its also about the stupidity of our keeping playing deputy sheriff to Washington and fighting every enemy it wants to fight. Not the ones that are genuinely a defence threat to Australia. Washington is power crazy. It thinks it can solve every problem by throwing its weight around, diplomatically, economically with sanctions, or militarily. A billion dollars here and there for something like Tomahawk missiles is one thing, but a significant part of a TRILLION dollars worth of nuclear powered subs is so totally disproportionate to the actual real military threat from China to Australia is so much more money thrown down the toilet that its time for a serious debate that asks whether the ever closer alliance to an ever more aggressive Washington is genuinely in Australia's defence interests.

      This not about defending Australia. It is about the US throwing is weight around in the world.

      How can the problem be China's "military buildup" when the US, which has weak friends to its north and south and oceans to its east and west, ie, no threats to its defence, spends three times as much. US military expenditure isn't abour defence. Not even its, let alone ours. Its about maintaining power and making profits.

      • Those wars served for Australia paying their dues on the insurance policy that hopefully the US will defend us . Problem nowadays is with the sub example is the dues are way too high and they could get the same insurance a lot cheaper . Go away from that insurance policy we have no hope . Being a US ally alone should be enough to deter potential threats in the future .

        • Read the link further down (consortium news) It sums it up perfectly. The govt was too scared to say no.
          See? Fear does work.

          1 quote>
          "Australia is caught between a rock and a Pentagon, and both are the fault of the United States. "

  • -1

    This may come off as hard come out but out people.

  • +1

    https://youtu.be/fND-Fgs_Vpw

    While China was using expert mediation, diplomacy and negotiation skills to broker this peace deal between 2 long standing enemies (Saudi-Iran) in the Middle East, one of the most notorious trouble spots,AUKUS leaders were finalising their multi-billion dollar nuclear sub deal to further inflame confrontation and tensions in the South China Sea.

    In Australia, NON of the commercial MSM reported on this. Only ABC had a little article on it. Any positive China does gets buried and not mentioned.

    • +1

      Hilarious isn't it. news.com.au uses rank propaganda dropped by some dweeb called Jamie Seidel to festoon the rag with the worst bullshit published in recent history. It's almost a spoof it's so blatant.
      But the BBC and MSM alone in filtering out the truth.
      Isn't it funny how the supporters of AUKUS don't like to remind us we just signed an endless contract that shackles the nations future prosperity and safety, with the very countries to gave us the wonderful leadership examples of intelligence, humanity and humility-Trump and Johnson. Waiting in the wings to lead us to the promise land. LOL .
      Not happy they shanked their own people and democracy , now it's time to infect ours with the same pathogen.
      The ABC has been almost pro AUKUS all the way. Knobbling alert. (Remember this isn't Labor in power, it's Duttons Gang of 'Yoof', now, so they would have no qualms in dropping some fake security briefing on their lap.
      Marles is a weak a star gazer minister. His is so owned.
      Albo should dye his hair red, to complete the theme, when the trifecta of stupidity arrives.

    • This wasn't even a peace deal, just a deal to resort diplomatic relations. The BBC's article had more info in it than that guys youtube hit piece.

      • +1

        Both sides agree to de-escalate tension and re-established diplomatic ties - brokered by China.
        That kinda sounds like a peace deal to me.

  • +5

    I believe this sums it all pretty well.
    Australia's real fear isn't China

    Unfortunately there is no way out of this, hope our dollar will not nose dive to $1.00 aud = $0.50usd

    My overseas holiday will really sux if that happens… Hack Singapore dollar is even higher than ours at the moment.

    • Sure, if you quote a "Hyper-Partisan Left" media outlet such as consortiumnews….

      Don't believe every opinion you read on the internet kids

      Their most Reddit post of Consortiumnews has the title: "Marxism-Leninism is history's greatest tool for fighting imperialism & class oppression" #Communism

      • Yes, believe Rupert!. Easy to do. Just follow the line of zombies.

        Can you explain with your use of dichotomy how 'the lefties' in govt sold out to the Yanks so empahatically?. They can't. The country is keen to know.
        I suppose the MSM will start to accuse Pr Hugh White of being a "commo", Chinese sympathiser too?

        BTW The site you linked could also be spoofed to damage consortium, could it not? (don't believe everything you see on the internet kids)

  • +3

    Ms Marles admits today that Australia's dependence on foreign oil (shipped in) is a major driver of AUKUS.
    So rather than fixing that by being self sufficient, or spending wasted AUKUS money on electrifying Australia, clearly this govt prefers an inevitable conflict and a 300 year mortgage?
    Another US was based on commodities, dressed as 'peace'. "Got to sell them dusty nukes,folks"
    "And that nice little gas reserve at E Timor looks good"
    Meanwhile we keep exporting our own energy reserves etc. Gee, I wonder who gets the lions share?

    If nothing else Keating has corrected history so this weasel govt doesn't escape it's recognition as those who shafted us.

    • +2

      A bit unfair to apportion full blame to Marles/Labor when it was Dutton-Morrison who tore up the French deal (many millions in penalty) and began a new kinda snorting. Forget the diesel kind, but firmly between the cheeks of Trump-Biden.

      • +1

        We expect to be thrown under a bus by Morrison et al. In the AUKUS case they did, and it turns out Labor were driving the bus. They own the blame. Emphatically. A rational govt would have communicated with it's people first. This deal was clearly printed and ready to sign long ago.
        Now there's a few reasons why this stinks coming from the ALP.
        But because they chose to do it, and now choose to defend it, and call Keatings concerns and observations irrelevant, tells me they MAY have had NO choice.
        If that IS the case, just consider WHY that may be.
        If they did this just to out 'hawk' the potato dog whistler, let's see anyone justify that, or explain what possible brain eating parasite was inserted into Albos earhole.
        If they did this just for jobs and growth…. oh crap, not even Trump could say that with a straight face.
        The fact is the AUKUS bill at the end (if we are still an intact planet in space at that point) will need more people working and paying tax than we will have. So what does that mean? Higher taxes, and a massive immigration program into a country which by then, would be Keatings dreaded banana republic. Bring it on then Albo.You won't have to suffer it.

        TLDR I beg to differ

        • +2

          If you can't acknowledge the Coalition leaving a massive turd on the desk, and Macron calling Morrison on the lies in the wake of him tearing up the deal, then I can't help you.

          If you can't imagine a deal whereby it was signed by Morrison with a guarantee of bipartisanship — an Aussie tradition on security and defense — your inherent political bias has rendered you blind.

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