Give Way Sign Vs a U Turn Vehicle [VIC]

Lcheapies2019 on 25/10/2022 - 14:36
Last edited 25/10/2022 - 15:15 by 1 other user

So had a close call to which I still don't know if I did the right thing or not. Fully accept it if I'm being a goose.

I was in Blue car turning left using a slip lane, had a give way sign so I had to wait for the traffic light on the main road to turn red to be able to turn. I saw the red car stopping in the right turn lane so I knew there was a car there. However in my mind he was turning right.

As the main street light turned red, I made my left turn into the most left lane (in my direction) and almost got T-bone by the Red car doing a U turn on the right turn arrow into the most left lane as well see pic. He did yell profanity at me saying he has the right of way to which I just said "sorry didn't know you were doing a uie".

In my mind I am pretty sure he was supposed to give way since he's doing a U turn but then I am also crossing a give way sign so unsure if I'm wrong or right. Think it's pretty impractical to ensure all cars in that right turn lane was actually turning right instead of doing a uie.

So question is: was I being a goose or was the red car?

PIC HERE

Happened in Vic

Automotive

closed Comments

  • naruto128 on 25/10/2022 - 14:39
    +3

    NSW traffic laws says drivers are not permitted to make a U-turn at traffic lights unless there is a U-Turn Permitted sign displayed or a green U-turn traffic light is displayed.

    • Ryanek on 25/10/2022 - 14:55
      +16

      OP is from Vic where U-turns are at lights are legal unless there is a sign saying otherwise.

      • Ghost47 on 25/10/2022 - 16:51

        Bonkers this isn’t allowed in other states. Then again Sydney roads are terribly designed and it’s probably good this isn’t a rule there.

      • capslock janitor on 27/10/2022 - 17:56

        this is the way

  • djkelly69 on 25/10/2022 - 14:51
    +13

    Aside from the above issue, a car doing a u-turn has to give way to all traffic [citation needed].

  • Seraphin7 on 25/10/2022 - 14:52
    -7

    There are two problem here.

    As noted above, you cannot make a U-turn at a set of traffic lights. This is an offence.

    That said, where you are required to give way, that is absolute. The fact that someone doing a U-turn does not absolve you from that requirement.

    If it came down to the civil matter of who is at fault, it is likely you would be found at fault for not giving way, contrary to the Give Way sign.

    • deveshwar0 on 25/10/2022 - 14:57
      +6

      U turns are permitted in VIC on all intersections unless a no U-turn sign is displayed

      • Seraphin7 on 25/10/2022 - 14:58

        I will clarify to NSW where I am. Perhaps there are differences in Victoria.

        • tomleonhart on 25/10/2022 - 15:10
          +1

          see deveshwar0 comment below. Give way sign does not mean giving way to u turning vehicle.

    • cheapies2019 on 25/10/2022 - 16:29
      +1

      I somehow find the rule for NSW but not VIC. But even in NSW, give way sign does not mean you give way to U-turn vehicle.

      When you’re at a ‘Give way’ sign or ‘Give way’ line, you must give way to vehicles driving in, entering or approaching the intersection except for:

      • an oncoming vehicle that’s also at a ‘Give way’ sign or line and is turning right
      • an oncoming vehicle that’s at a ‘Stop’ sign or line and is turning right
      • a vehicle turning left using a slip lane
      • a vehicle making a U-turn.
  • deveshwar0 on 25/10/2022 - 14:52
    +31

    My understanding is that you were right.

    From: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…

    "When making a U-turn you must give way to all other vehicles and pedestrians."

    Also from: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r….

    "If you are:

    stopped at a Stop sign or line, or
    facing a Give Way sign or line
    You must give way to any vehicle already in, entering or approaching an intersection, except if the vehicle is:

    making a U-turn"

  • GG57 on 25/10/2022 - 15:03
    -5

    You have to obey the 'Give Way' sign. In my view, that is for all traffic, from whatever direction they are coming from. It could be argued that the other (turning) vehicle was already in the traffic and your position wasn't in the same intersection. The u-turning vehicle must have been in the left lane to almost collide with you.

  • trustnoone on 25/10/2022 - 15:08
    +11

    Under intersections for vicroads site:

    Stop & give way signs and lines

    If you are:

    • stopped at a Stop sign or line, or
    • facing a Give Way sign or line

    You must give way to any vehicle already in, entering or approaching an intersection, except if the vehicle is:

    • making a U-turn
    • turning left using a slip lane
    • oncoming, turning right, and is also facing a Stop or Give Way sign or line.

    https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…

    I was told that you preferably shouldn't do a u-turn if a car is waiting to turn in that direction. As there is no way for the car to know that you're doing a u-turn.
    Keep in mind doing a u-turn also requires you to give way too all other traffic.

    When making a U-turn you must give way to all other vehicles and pedestrians.

    https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…

    • cheapies2019 on 25/10/2022 - 16:25
      +2

      ah finally. I've been trying to find it but obviously didn't do a very good job!

    • shulks on 26/10/2022 - 10:58
      +2

      U turn must give way to everyone and everything basically

      But I feel like the majority are not aware of these rules and I've been in near misses because of this too. Sometimes it's safer to let them make a u turn

  • Porker on 25/10/2022 - 15:22
    +7

    Look at the street view and there'll likely be a 'U turn must give way sign' there.

    Blue car has priority under Victorian road rules.

    See below as a similar example of left-turn at give-way slip lane having priority over (even) green-arrow right turn

    https://goo.gl/maps/NcqQZd8zctrdG8GB9

    • cheapies2019 on 25/10/2022 - 16:25

      thanks. there is no sign saying something like that though so that's why i am a bit confused.

      • Porker on 25/10/2022 - 16:25
        +2

        The sign is only there to reinforce the road rule - the rule doesn't only apply when the sign is there.

  • Euphemistic on 25/10/2022 - 15:26
    -6

    Not great action by both drivers. If it’s legal to do a u turn at lights where you are, then the other car should give way to all vehicles, however, being behind a give way means you shouldn’t be crossing the line if there is a chance of hitting another vehicle.

    I’d say you were in the wrong but end of the day, no harm no foul. Sometimes we make assumptions that about other drivers that price to be wrong and end up with a near hit. I’ve done it plenty.

    Add this situation to your defensive driving awareness lessons and move on.

  • GordonD on 25/10/2022 - 15:53
    +4

    The OP was clearly in the right. No doubt whatsoever in that circumstance.

    But let me change the situation a little. What if he was entering the road from a driveway or something similar. Would the rule that says a vehicle doing a U-turn has to give way to all other vehicles and pedestrians apply, or would the one saying a vehicle entering the road has to give way to all other vehicles and pedestrians apply?

    • Euphemistic on 25/10/2022 - 16:06
      -2

      The u turn vehicle needs to give way to all other vehicles on the road they are on. The give way sign means you can’t go unless it is clear, which in this case was not true because the was a car doing a u turn.

      • tomleonhart on 25/10/2022 - 16:10
        +2

        wrong. In Victoria at least OP is in the right. See comment above re give way sign not having to give way to u turn vehicle.

        • Euphemistic on 25/10/2022 - 16:17
          +1

          End of the day it doesn’t matter what the rules actually say, I would expect that many people don’t understand the nuance of the law and I would give way to a u turning vehicle if I was at that give way line.

          It would depend on exactly where the car was though. If it’s waiting in a position to turn right, it looks like it is going to turn right the I might go. However, if the veggie is already in a position of doing a u turn, I’m going to give way.

          • cheapies2019 on 25/10/2022 - 16:24
            +4

            @Euphemistic: I drive that intersection daily. That car was position like the thousands car before them i.e. stop at the right lane before the traffic light, indicating right to turn right. We were both waiting for the light to turn red so I could turn left and he could turn right.

            The problem with doing a uie like that is you don't know if they are going to do a u turn until they do it.

            • Euphemistic on 25/10/2022 - 18:09

              @cheapies2019: It’s a bit like a 4way stop sign intersection where there is a responsibility to stop and give way, but no rule on who goes first. In this case it’s similar, both vehicles are required to give way and there will be a lot of people who won’t fully understand the law.

              As I said in my down voted post above: take it as a defensive driving lesson

              • Grunntt on 26/10/2022 - 11:17

                @Euphemistic:

                In this case it’s similar, both vehicles are required to give way and there will be a lot of people who won’t fully understand the law.

                But in this case it is, as has been clearly posted above, that both vehicles are not required to give way.
                The vehicle performing the U-turn is clearly in the wrong according to the road rules.
                Looks like you may be one of those "a lot of people who won’t fully understand the law."

                • Euphemistic on 26/10/2022 - 11:31
                  +1

                  @Grunntt: My point being: it’s better to be wrong and safe than right and injured.

                  It depends on the timing of the arrival of both vehicles.

                  If the other car is already performing a u-turn, you have to give way - there’s a give way sign there. You cannot proceed through a giveaway sign if you will impede the progress of another vehicle, wether they have made an illegal manoeuvre or not.

                  If the other car is not moving, and you appear to be clear to go you can proceed through the give way sign, then the u-turn vehicle must give way.

                  Again, it’s defensive driving 101 and a reflection of there being no ‘right of way’ in traffic law.

                  • Grunntt on 27/10/2022 - 07:35

                    @Euphemistic: You have either not read, or just do not understand, what is clearly stated in the Victorian road rules.

                    Your points on defensive driving I agree with.

                    Your statements on the Victorian road rules are very much incorrect.

                    It's better explained a few posts higher up the thread by deveshwar0 and trustnoone and they have the direct links to the applicable Vic road rules.

                    • Euphemistic on 27/10/2022 - 07:59

                      @Grunntt: I’ve read and re-read. I’ve also learned something. It doesn’t change the fact that while the u-turner is waiting there is no way to determine if they are turning right or u-turning. Once they are in a position that makes it obvious they are u turning you can’t pull out in front of them because they are supposed to give way.

                      If I was in the position of making a u turn, I wouldn’t start it if someone was at the giveway, but I’m not everyone and I’ve seen enough DCOA clips to not trust another driver to predict what I’m doing.

                      • Grunntt on 27/10/2022 - 08:28

                        @Euphemistic: Wasn't disagreeing with you on the 'common sense' safety aspects.
                        Was pointing out that the other parts of your post that specifically referred to the legality were incorrect.

                        I always attempt to act based primarily what is safe rather than 'my rights'.
                        I used to drive for 10 - 12 hours a day in my previous job and I swear someone would attempt to kill me at least once per day.

                        • Euphemistic on 27/10/2022 - 08:43

                          @Grunntt: Just once a day?

                          • Grunntt on 27/10/2022 - 10:53

                            @Euphemistic: I wish I could locate the compilation dashcam video I made to show a friend how bad it was.
                            When I noticed that the whole video was taken over less than a week I realised it was much more frequent than I thought - I think I had just become used to it happening.

  • GordonD on 25/10/2022 - 16:06

    Hey, while we're on the road rules, and those interested in that subject are responding to this thread, can I ask a completely different road rule question that probably doesn't justify creating a thread just to ask it.

    I've just had an exchange of emails with a Police officer in a fairly senior traffic-related area. He insisted there is an explicit provision in the Australian Road Rules that says a driver can break rules where circumstances make it necessary. The specific example he used was doing a U-turn where that would normally be prohibited if there was a tree across the road. He was more vague about what you could do if traffic lights appeared to be faulty. I couldn't find any such a provision. Police do have the discretion to not book you, but if you choose to break the law because you think it was reasonable and necessary in the circumstances you are relying on them, or potentially a magistrate, having the same idea you do of what is common sense.

    The particular circumstance that resulted in the exchange of emails was traffic lights I was complaining appeared to me to be faulty because they didn't give the vehicles coming from my direction a green light for 24 minutes. He was asserting both that I could have broken one or other traffic law to get out of the situation, while also insisting there was no fault reported with those lights on that day.

    • Porker on 25/10/2022 - 16:16
      +1

      I've been in a similar situation on two occasions where the light didn't change:

      1. the first was at an intersection, and after waiting 15 mins or so at a red light (also after rolling my car back and forth over the signal conduit) I exited my vehicle and pressed the pedestrian crossing button which activated the signals in my favour.

      2. the second was at a pedestrian operated signal, which didn't change back to green and the vehicle queue was LONG. I just drove through the red and later called VicRoads and informed them of the fault.

      The fallen tree example is a clear reason to break the rules. Your 24 minutes might be clear to you, but won't be clear to others or indeed the police (if they fined you)

      • GordonD on 25/10/2022 - 16:25

        I've had the situation where a long vehicle (a government bus) used the left lane to turn right, as they legally can, but because it did only the left turn arrow was activating, not the right. I had to get out of my car walk 200 metres down the queue of cars to the intersection to see what the problem was, wave the next vehicle into position over the right turn sensor, then run like hell back to my car.

        And I had a very light motorcycle that didn't activate the sensors. So if I was at traffic lights by myself I had to get off and press the pedestrian button.

        But in the incident I was arguing with the cop about it wasn't a "user" error, it was the system playing up.

    • bobbified on 26/10/2022 - 03:03

      … appeared to me to be faulty because they didn't give the vehicles coming from my direction a green light…

      This happens sometimes with motorcycles where the induction loop in the road doesn't detect the presence of the bike.
      There's been a never-ending argument on what to do. Some riders say that they just go after a certain amount of time and others have said that they walk the bike over to press the pedestrian crossing button to activate it.

      Edit - Just noticed GordonD above has mentioned he actually presses the button!

      • md333 on 26/10/2022 - 12:41

        Whatever you do the first time, try to report the faulty sensor, I've only done it once, but it got fixed remarkably quickly. There is a phone number on the control box at the intersection (at least in WA).

    • azero on 26/10/2022 - 10:59

      This happens in the intersection next to my house - waiting for the green right arrow. If you are more than a meter or 2 away from the white line, the sensor on the traffic light does not register you and does not turn on the green arrow.

      Took me a while to figure it out.

      • Firexx on 29/10/2022 - 18:45

        I've got one of these near me as well. The number of minutes I've spent just sitting there wondering why it won't turn, and then finally realising all I need to do is inch forward…

  • jjjaar on 25/10/2022 - 16:09
    +2

    I actually had this discussion the other day with someone - though the slip lane in my other conversation was a distanced from the intersection itself.

    • My argument was that u-turns give way to everyone.
    • Theirs was that because it was a slip lane, it was two separate intersections: 1 where the u-turner turned and entered the road, and 2 where the slip lane meets the road. By this logic, the u-tuner is already in the main roadway, and the slip lane driver must give way to anyone already in the road.

    In OPs scenario, the slip lane is absolutely part of the main intersection, so u-turns give way to everyone. But in the situation in my previous discussion, it was definitely a lot more unclear.

  • CrazyBargainCatcher on 25/10/2022 - 16:42

    Red Car has to give way i think

  • DazMon on 26/10/2022 - 07:56

    I use to drive my car up to Sydney from Vic and I once did a U turn right in front of a police car, and lets just say I was very surprised when they came after me! No fine.

    • bobbified on 26/10/2022 - 13:41
      +1

      I tried that before late at night on the Princes Hwy in Rockdale and they didn't let me off. Vic Rego and Licence too. (I do have to admit that I knew it wasn't legal in NSW though). lol

  • b0rnwithabeard on 26/10/2022 - 08:31
    +1

    u-turn vehicles are the lowest priority in terms of who gives way to whom

  • terrys on 26/10/2022 - 11:09
    +2

    I've driven in the UK, Germany (BRD), New Zealand, NSW, Victoria and SA. In all of those jurisdictions, a vehicle making a U-turn is at the bottom of the feed chain when it comes to the misnamed "right of way" (properly: obligation to give way.)

  • Buttocks on 28/10/2022 - 21:56
    +1

    Firstly here in QLD you can only make U turn at lights where sign says U turn is permitted. I have a rather busy intersection at local shopping centre precinct near home which I travel through two or more times a day from all directions. Similar to OPs scenario drivers throw U turn at lights and vehicles are using slip lane to turn left to travel the same direction that the U turn vehicle wants to go. Everyone on the slip road gives way to the U turning vehicle at this and similar intersections here. Why? The U turning vehicle has legally conducted U turn…has already entered intersection legally and more often than not have completed U turn by the time they pass the slip lane. Therefore the person on the slip lane is entering the intersection and must give way to vehicles already in the intersection just like if a person is throwing a right across an intersection and you are on slip lane you must give way. I have not read all the Vic and NSW rule book quotes above but yes if you are doing a U turn you must make sure it is safe to do so like you can not do U turn infront of oncoming traffic etc…but that is not the case in this described instance so sorry OP you were at fault here because you were on a givecway sign…good cheap lesson learnt is to slow down while using slip lanes and entering traffic.

    • GG57 on 31/10/2022 - 10:07
      +1

      I'm with you; I think the U-turn vehicle has completed their turn, exited the intersection (which is controlled by lights) and therefore the vehicle at the slip road (with the Give Way sign and not controlled by the intersection lights) should give way.

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