I'll make it short. I often see near-accidents when cars are trying to turn right whilst the oncoming traffic still has green light. Waiting for a break in traffic is one thing, but most incidents occur when the light is about to change. Wouldn't it be more efficient and safe to have a dedicated right-turn signal for 5 seconds every cycle?
Is It Time to Abolish The "Turn Right When Possible" Rule?
BargainCowboy on 06/10/2022 - 11:36
Poll Options
- 499Keep the rule as is - turn right on green light when no oncoming traffic
- 87I prefer dedicated green light to turn right
Comments
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BCC tried this on a couple dozen intersections as a trial - they're now in the process of removing all of them as the impact on ped/cyclist safety was deemed unacceptable compared to the benefits.
I had a 'turn left on red' trial at an intersection in my area. I guess it failed as it went back to normal and stayed that way :(
There's a few lights that I'm aware of that have disabled the right turn which force people to go straight at the intersection and use the roundabout 50m down the road. Slightly longer for them but improves traffic flow for everyone else.
Meh, some intersections limit the hours you can turn, so there is middle ground.
I think there should be bigger penalties for at fault accidents.
They aren't usually "accidents", are they? Usually negligence.
Either way, there's no enforcement. You can report the crash online and that's the end of it - no legal repurcussion for putting others lives at risk during a neglegent driving decision.
Lets stop calling them accidents. Start calling it a crash.
In Florida they call them Fender Benders!
Would be better for people to learn common sense. Why must we cater to the lowest common denominator all the time?
Maybe if they had some common sense they'd realise that 4x4's and soccer mum cars are not see through and sedans/hatchbacks cannot see anything when they pull right up next to them at T-intersections.
Also some turning lanes are 100M+ long for a reason, you brake once you're in them not before, otherwise you affect the flow of traffic.
I feel like it's not that hard to grasp, but some people man.. They just don't understand anymore.ventingover
Those that voted for I prefer dedicated green light to turn right should turn in their licence.
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In my opinion, what OP's talking about is a training/experience issue. If you always needed to be guided by lights then when the lights are out, you're doomed.
While we're at it, can we have dedicated right turning lanes, and not those straight and right turning arrows in one?
Or make it left turn only everywhere like that Seinfeld episode
I often see near-accidents when cars are trying to turn right whilst the oncoming traffic still has green light. Waiting for a break in traffic is one thing, but most incidents occur when the light is about to change.
So its not the person turning then at fault, but the person going straight trying to 'run' the light that is the issue….
How about people just follow the road rules. Yellow/Amber means STOP if safe to stop, not go faster!
So its not the person turning then at fault, but the person going straight trying to 'run' the light that is the issue
Unfortunately, the issue is created by the redlight runner, the fault according to the actual law can be seen as shared -
If the lights change to yellow or red while you’re in the intersection, you must turn right as soon as it’s safe to do so.
When you’re turning right at an intersection without signs, you must give way to:
a vehicle approaching from the right
an oncoming vehicle going straight ahead
an oncoming vehicle turning left
pedestrians crossing the road you’re turning into.
It does not specify that the oncoming vehicle has to be legally going straight ahead.
There are many cases where this has been shown to apply.
Unfortunately, the issue is created by the redlight runner, the fault according to the actual law can be seen as shared -
So we punish the victim and not the perpetrator with the change the OP wants? Doesn't sound right.
It does not specify that the oncoming vehicle has to be legally going straight ahead.
This is covered off under the general traffic light laws. Once the light changes, legally they are meant to stop unless unsafe to do so.
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr20…
A driver approaching or at traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light must stop—The problem is, most see 'yellow' as a chance to floor it instead, whoops light went red, I can't stop now!!!
There are many cases where this has been shown to apply.
You mean someone running a yellow/red light and hitting someone? Yes there is.
I support red light cameras on every intersection! This would stop these events overnight!
From some random legal company site -
The road traffic regulations require a driver turning right to give way to any moving traffic.
However, negligence on the part of the driver who is travelling straight may also be a factor in these crashes. Liability may be more complicated if the following factors were involved:
Running a red light or stop sign: Although the driver making the turn is responsible for ensuring it is safe to turn before moving into the intersection, a driver who has failed to stop for a red light or a stop sign may also be found liable for the accident.
One of the tricks that the delivery companies that gives their drivers turn by turn instructions from dropoff to dropoff did to reduce the chance of accidents is to direct them so they avoid turning across oncoming traffic if possible. So in Australia that would mean that instead of turning right you'd go to the next intersection and turn left, then take the first left again, then turn left again to be on the road you would have gotten onto by turning right once. It sounds like it'd take longer to get where you're going, which you'd think would be a delivery company's first priority, but it has a substantial effect on reducing crashes. And, yes, of course its only possible in places where the streets are in a grid-like arrangement.
Despite their use to reduce right turns, in pretty sure they aren’t going to waste the time/fuel of going 3 lefts when a single right is an option - especially with traffic lights.
What they do is look at the overall route planning and avoid rights by selecting a drop off sequence that avoids as many as possible.
No, the mapping app they use often calculates it automatically and directs them to take 3 lefts instead of a right (or the opposite in LHD countries). In a busy road in a grid layout it can use less fuel and time than turning across traffic, as well as being safer.
Bear in mind though that in the states grid layouts are pretty universal even in suburbia and they don't use roundabouts. So this may be more common there than here.
Reminds me of the saying: "Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!"
In Sydney with so many cars it is hard to understand why turning right on busy intersections is a thing here. Busy intersection traffic lights should have two phases only to keep the traffic flowing as quickly as possible.
It is interesting to see that the average user don't see this as an option.
What the OP is suggesting will cause major traffic issues without significant investment in roads.
Take the intersection near my place. It has a right turn arrow (to cross the highway), as well as allowing you to turn when no traffic is coming. I'd estimate that 50% of cars turn when there is no traffic coming, and 50% turn on the green arrow. Even so, traffic still queues up in the right turn lane, at times blocking one of the lanes that goes straight.
So, you'd have to increase the green arrow time significantly to make up for not turning allowing to turn right except on green arrow. This would cause other issues, such as interrupting the flow heading the other direction on the highway.Interesting. In my suburb it's useless, 1 car per cycle. Different perspectives I guess.
The best lights are those that are a combination. You can turn right at any time if it’s clear, but there’s also a dedicated green light for when it’s busy.
So many accidents are the outcome of poor civil planning in really traffic jam prone areas. Some places you can only get one car through the orange after queuing for ages.
Very few crashes are as a result of poor planning. The VAST majority are due to bad driving. Good planning will help increase safety but won’t overcome numbskull drivers. The idiots will always find a way to out idiot good planning.
I can’t disagree with the vast majority but certain intersections need to be fixed to allow more than 1 car through a yellow light to get through.
No. As is is better. There are some areas where a dedicated right signal wouldn't work or would slow traffic.
The signs or rule isnt the problem, its the lack of driver experience behind the wheel
Or people can just learn how to drive…
Plot twist they won't
If you can't turn right with care then you shouldn't have a license.
I think the issue is at busy times, it can be 7 or 8 cycles before a safe break in traffic really occurs - and people get backed up, pressured, frustrated, etc - and end up taking a risky maneuver - even otherwise very good drivers. Personally I plan ahead and just carry on straight until a right hand arrow in that circumstance, but in unfamiliar roads with GPS navigation I can understand why people find themselves in the situation
Not everyone's an ambiturner.
A lot of right turning driver's don't seem to know the rules in Brisbane. I've had 3 near misses in the last few years where I had to break hard to avoid a crash going straight due to right turning driver's not giving way. Funnily enough the lights near my place where recently changed to have arrows.
*brake hard
One rule I think they should definitely rethink is being able to turn whilst the pedestrian light is green/flashing red. See plenty of near misses and actual road rage with pedestrians who may be a little slower crossing the road, or ones who enter the crossing slightly later.
The rule is you need to give way to pedestrians when turning, lights or not. I think it’s a fairly recent rule and not many drivers know it. It’s another reason we should require knowledge tests when renewing a licence.
Its not really the rule itself. Even if everyone knew the right thing to do, its a situation where you have a human vs a 2 tonne piece of moving metal and "blind trust" that the person behind the wheel is not an unhinged maniac.
Its usually cab drivers and tradies in utes that dangerously drive around the pedestrians as they are mid crossing. Many times they even beep and swear at the pedestrian who has right of way as they take off
I think about this every damn day while sitting at a new red right turn arrow. There's great visibility in all directions and usually no-one in sight at 5am. I could easily proceed safely through the intersection, but what would I know…
The balance of good to bad drivers always seems to be shifting for the worse. We're losing compassion, patience and attentiveness on the road and gaining complacency, entitlement and aggresion.
This is why we can't have nice things. So we're working towards safer (and less efficient) traffic management solutions.
We could have intelligent traffic signals that detect approaching traffic in off-peak and learn the most efficient patterns when it's busy. But we'd probably spend 50 years and 100 billion on half of the project and end up with another NBN. If it helps you can look forward to the efficiency of majority self-driving cars ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Wow this became an essay… thanks for reading, have a good weekend!
The balance of good to bad drivers always seems to be shifting for the worse. We're losing compassion, patience and attentiveness on the road and gaining complacency, entitlement and aggresion.
This. It’s a reflection of what appears to be an increasingly selfish society.
As for intelligent traffic lights, I’d be reasonably confident that motor intersections are monitored and adjusted to suit traffic. Maybe not automatically, but managed by the traffic management group in the state.
From what I’m aware it’s also possible to request a review of traffic light times if you think a light sequence isn’t working efficiently.
Intelligent traffic lights is already proven to work in places like the Netherlands, just need one or two more induction loops.
I come from a country where the right green arrow always comes on AFTER the circular green light turns red. This clears the traffic on the road waiting to turn.
This happens on some intersections. They aren’t all the same.
I guess the inconsistency is what causes the accidents to occur.
When the green circular light comes on (no red right arrow), cars will start to inch out in anticipation of turning right. Then when the circular lights change red we get in a mad panic and drivers will try to clear the junction.
This 'inching out' behaviour (which is not wrong, there are turn out lanes to show where drivers should wait) + the green right arrow not turning on is a deadly combo.
it’s not driving with due care and impatience that causes the problems.
The incidents occur because people are breaking the law and driving through on an orange.
People think amber light means hurry up and get through before it turns red. It actually means you need to come to a stop if you can safely, not accelerate faster to make it.
If people followed the rule, there would be no incidents.
Around here it's the morons who think the first 5 seconds of the red light mean they can just plough on through.
Especially noticeable around here are the ones turning left on red.
On the opposite side of the intersection you are lucky to get more than one car able to turn right because of these morons.It's either one of the least known road rules or a great example of how much people care about anyone else. "No I must save 2 minutes of my time and hammer through this amber". People make a lot of noise cyclists going through red lights but almost every traffic light you will see a motorist breaking this road rule.
People definitely have no clue. Pushing hard through an amber has become the norm for people it's just an accepted thing. To the point where if a cop fines someone for driving through an amber, which they do, they will get extremely angry and confused.
Similar to people who "give way to the right" at a roundabout. Everyone does it and everyone teaches their kids to do it.
That's not how it works.
Similar to people who "give way to the right" at a roundabout.
Don't get me started. "Oh there's a car approaching the roundabout 100m away, I have to give way to them!"
NO.
Reminds me of the scene from Starman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3WtvzmKCQQ
(for some reason Starman seems to have some Trump mannerisms, or vice versa.)
need to exercise in south asian traffic
My understanding is they usually only have turn right when its safe to do so on less dangerous roads and on the really busy or dangerous roads, you have a dedicated green arrow to turn right….
I think we should be allowed to turn on red if there's no traffic on the road or it's safe to do so.
Speed mandatory system control built in all cars.
Luckily it's happening in Europe thank goodness.
What i think needs to be abolished is 2 things
Construction zone speed limiting when there is no construction going on. Road can be completed for months and still have a 40km sign in a 80km area. All because 1 company did not take a barricade down. (I used to work for a traffic counting company and this was often the case they cannot increase the speed limit until all construction material is removed.
Right/Left only lanes on Multi-Lane roads where both directions are possible. One road near my house has a right only lane where you can go straight but not allowed.
These lanes are acceptable in my opinion where a merging lane is designated for Turning.
It's excellent for intersection performance but as you said, very poor for intersection safety. From my understanding, TMR in QLD is preferring to ban right turn filters if it needs to cross more than 2 lanes for new intersections now.
Can we try and avoid red arrows that turn green the same time as the green man running parallel activates, that caught me out in the city when I first moved to Melbourne and driving in the CBD, cool green arrow ah nope and now I'm stuck in the middle of the road.
People to do need to pay more attention and brush up on road rules now and again, little online refresher course when you renew your licence maybe. 1 . Look for others around you when moving or indicating to change lane, dont just indicate close your eyes and move over until someone beeps. 2 Giving way to traffic on or approaching your right at a roundabout . 3 zip merging without a line give way to car in front not try and block them off force them off the road(so many people don't get this) 4 Don't get shitty when someone beeps you for your mistake. 5. Put a hand up to say sorry if you stuff up or if someone lets you in… Thats 90% of my annoyances from daily commute.
For a good 18 months the top of my street had a timed right turn red arrow that held you back for a road that had not been opened yet. Everyone just drove straight through it. The road is now opened and the problem has moved 300 metres down the road for the same thing.
"For a good 18 months the top of my street had a timed right turn red arrow that held you back for a road that had not been opened yet. Everyone just drove straight through it" what does this mean?
I could have explained myself better. It used to be a dead end T junction, drive up turn left and right only, they built and extended the main road to continue straight for a future building estate but it was blocked it off with concrete bollards. Installed and activated traffic lights with right turn red arrow,so traffic that was alwayas allowed to turn tight now had to wait to turn right for a blocked road in the opposite direction… was like for at least 18 months.
18 months of that unreasonabless, yikes
As far as I'm aware you'll never get a green turning arrow into a ped crossing when the ped is running, as this is a conflict.
You should only have a straight through green on, or a straight through green with an off left turn.
In Melbourne you still do, although nowadays you get a flashing give way to pedestrians sign but in the city it didn't have it back then. Talking 2006 or 2007 when I used to collect my mrs from work in the city.
Now they stop all the lights and everyone crosses so that's so much better for pedestrians.
Put roundabouts in all major intersections so it confuses more unskilled drivers
saves electricity too
The big problem is everyone drives an SUV and i drive a small hatchback so I can't see s**t when there's a bunch of SUV's on the opposite side. This means that I have to wait for the amber most times, and even then make a bit of a leap of faith and hope no one runs the amber / red.
Long story short, I'm getting an SUV.
No, I think the last thing in the world we need is more traffic congestion and longer queues at intersections.
In fact I'd argue we need the opposite - far more intersections that allow you to turn right on a green light, and it should be a timed thing - for example at night when theres very little traffic, why make people sit and wait for a green arrow when there's no other traffic anywhere?
You want to add 20 seconds of wait time to every controlled intersection in Australia ?. You must love the daily commute. Some people aren't happy unless theyre miserable I guess.
All turns should have a dedicated signal. Not only would I want this for right turns, I’d also like to see turning through pedestrian crossing all be restricted to a dedicated light. So sick of crossing road and a car trying to chop in.
I see a LOT of people commenting that people just need to learn to drive… and it’s cute, but… how do they not see that is the POINT. People don’t have these skills. They just don’t. You’re driving with idiots, get used to it! The roads should be designed to be idiot-proof.
"Wouldn't it be more efficient and safe to have a dedicated right-turn signal for 5 seconds every cycle?"
Safe: yes
Efficient: no, not when the first in line SUV takes 5 seconds to move so no one else canSmart traffic lights. Have cameras pointed down the road in each direction. Build some decision making into the lights based on oncoming traffic. I am baffled no one has built this yet.
They already have sensors built into the road that do just this.
Oh really? Nice. I could see the sensor outlines cut into the road at random points. I always thought that was weird. That explains it. Cheers
They mostly aren’t smart, just programmed with some simple things like not activating the turn arrow if no cars detected, leaving arrows on a bit longer if cars still passing. They still won’t anticipate if one more car is further down the road they should wait for it to cross before changing. The sensors tend to only be within a few car lengths of the lights.
@Euphemistic: Okay. Yeah I mean seeing what is coming on the horizon. You could even give priority to emergency vehicles.
@WaitAwhile: It’s be good for lights to see that holding the cycle for a few more seconds could prevent a few cars from having to stop or to be able to see the queue and actively change priorities of traffic rather than relying on preprogrammed expected traffic volumes.
Too many times I’ve sat waiting at an intersection while nothing comes the other way only for the lights to change just as a car or two approaches causing them to stop while I go despite having been able to clear he intersection before they arrive.
I want to see more 'turn left on red, permitted after stopping"…. but knowing how people drive, they don't even know how 'turn left with care' works.
One of the issues is that people from smaller regional areas with few or no traffic lights may have little to no experience with "turn right when possible" traffic light situations.
I've had a licence for over 30 years but it was quite a few years after getting it that I would first encounter this particular situation on a trip to Brisbane. I remember being somewhat confused as I didn't realise I would be permitted to wait after the line and inside the intersection, as such I think I remained behind the line which made things more difficult and dangerous. I had this feeling that I would be blocking the intersection if I was unable to make the turn in time.
I cant recall if this particular traffic light rule was in the written test and it likely wasn't in the practical test as I don't think any lights in the town where I took the test allowed this. If you are not being continuously exposed to situations in practice then it's easy to forget what you may have learned initially.
To be fair it is confusing. Some intersections I have been at have a green right hand arrow on, at the same time as the opposite direction having a green light going straight through.
Normally I’d expect the other side has green, only when I have a blank right arrow and a green forward light.
They could indicate it better on the lights with some new icon that indicates you can go but the other side can too…
The only time a green arrow appears is if the opposing traffic has a red light. Some have opposing right turns, but if you are crossing the path of other traffic on a green light something is not working to plan (normally others running a red).
Green light means other traffic has been stopped to allow you to proceed.
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@BargainCowboy: To be honest though i do see your point, if the intersection's level of service can sustain itself with arrows and the relevant increase in safety then why not. It's just i feel as soon as it starts failing and they rip out all the arrows it'll turn into a very expensive exercise.