[Unobtainable / Cancelled] Free Train Travel: RTBU NSW to Turn off Opal Readers at All Train Stations from Wed 21 September

Ljbird84 on 14/09/2022 - 14:42
Last edited 17/09/2022 - 23:44 by 3 other users

Reason: Opal card readers will continue to operate on Wednesday. Please read the latest Twitter post by RTBU for details.

First time poster, long time reader. Unions NSW have announced their intent to shut off Opal readers at all train stations starting next Wednesday, 21 September, citing the need for safety improvements and a fair pay rise. I couldn't link to the precise Twitter post as I'm a newbie, but you can find the announcement on their @UnionsNSW account. The link provided goes to The Guardian's mention of the action. The tweet mentions that the NSW Gov't may work out a way to turn the readers back on, so we'll see. Text of the primary tweet is as follows.

MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT
All opal machines at train stations in Sydney and NSW will be turned off indefinitely, from Wednesday next week.
If there is no way to tap on or off, you cannot be fined. Please remain vigilant as the NSW Premier may try various tactics to turn machines on.

The Twitter thread continues on detailing the union's reasons for action, which could also be considered free reading material for your free train ride. Cheers.

Mod - Deal link updated

General Discussion

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Transport for NSW

Rail, Tram, and Bus Union

Comments

GG57 on 14/09/2022 - 14:45

+50

I'm unsure if this should be classed as a deal. There is no certainty that this will be available or eventuate.
- mahdoo on 14/09/2022 - 14:48
  
  +11
  
  Yeah seems more like a threat in an attempt to force the NSW government to act on their demands
  - jcon on 14/09/2022 - 19:36
    
    +14
    
    It's the form of protest which the union can undertake without harming commuter services.
    
    The alternative - a strike - would be much, much worse. Support the union, they are doing this the civilised way.
    - mahdoo on 14/09/2022 - 20:13
      
      +9
      
      I'm not not supporting the union. Just stating the obvious. 7 days is given in the hope that NSW government will respond during that time. If they don't, then the union will go ahead with their plans.
      
      This is a threat from the union to the government. If the government meet their depends before the 7 days are up, then this won't go ahead. Imo this should be taken down and put back up maybe in 5 days time, if demands aren't and it's clear this will be going ahead.
      - lancesta on 16/09/2022 - 10:46
        
        @mahdoo: I might be wrong but some actions (well at least strikes) require notice to be given regardless.
  - ialam99 on 14/09/2022 - 21:37
    
    +4
    
    I'm liking this new union approach of making things free. Hopefully other unions like the petroleum union (opec?) will follow suit and make petrol free.
  - entropysbane on 15/09/2022 - 05:58
    
    +5
    
    I suspect union leadership isn’t too interested in whether the government responds or not. It is no coincidence this is occurring as another action as part of a rolling series during the six months before the NSW election.
    
    Not that I tired, stand for nothing mob deserve reflection, but cynical me noticed the traditional timing.
    - DealBreaker87 on 15/09/2022 - 14:07
      
      +2
      
      the agreement is almost 2 years overdue for renewal, its got nothing to do with the election, the government is the one who has drawn it out this long.
- CheapandUsed on 14/09/2022 - 14:51
  
  +35
  
  There is no certainty that this will be available or eventuate
  That is how I feel about those Amazon deals, expired or never really there by the time you click on it.
  - dajiska on 14/09/2022 - 17:50
    
    +1
    
    absolutely agree….especially with Amazon deals :-)
- alz on 14/09/2022 - 14:58
  
  +45
  
  Its a deal to me. Quit your whinging man seriously
  - GG57 on 14/09/2022 - 15:13
    
    +10
    
    Thanks for that quality argument about why I should consider this a deal.
    - Flirtle on 14/09/2022 - 15:21
      
      +6
      
      I thought this was funny.
- D3m3ntia on 14/09/2022 - 15:10
  
  +5
  
  Is it a deal if you eventually pay for it? Where do those garnment funds come from to pay for running the reduced trains and non union staff..
  - lancesta on 14/09/2022 - 17:38
    
    +6
    
    I'd say yes, because you can take advantage of it. If the flu vaccine is offered for free for a month, sure eventually we pay for it somewhere along the line but its not based on whether you use the service personally.
- lychnis on 14/09/2022 - 15:27
  
  +4
  
  It's about as good as the new to streaming bargains imo.
  
  It's a thing that's been announced.
  
  I don't have to do anything extra if I'm already using the service.
  
  It's irrelevant to me if I'm not already using the service.
- ajthanud on 14/09/2022 - 17:16
  
  +12
  
  if poster did not post, i would not know about it and or choose to use it. so i thank you poster. It is good to be grateful that people take time out of their day to choose to inform others of deals.
- [Deactivated] on 15/09/2022 - 05:43
  
  -5
  
  Yeah….a great "deal".
  
  A "freebie" that, as a NSW resident, simply means that the lost revenue is kicked-forward into future taxes, duties, levies and royalties I will need to pay. These are the same or similar taxes, duties, levies and royalties that people who lost paid work or education due to recent strike activity will also need to pay.
  
  Unions have their place. But these RTBU clowns are playing with fire and showcasing the low level of intellect required to make choo-choo trains run around on tracks. The sooner we can fully automate the network the better. The RTBU and its members can take their redundancies and buy into "Jim's AI Camera Lens Cleaning" franchise operations.
  
  In the meantime, I'm in favour of Transport for NSW turning off the payroll system if the employees are not doing their jobs.
  - hobbsey1 on 15/09/2022 - 18:07
    
    Yeah David and OzDJ_ I'm sure youse have a far better understanding of how to win fair wages and safe working conditions than the union who has a literal team of experts who have been planning this action for months. The REAL geniuses of the labour movement right here..
    
    Also OzDJ your whining about costs that YOU PERSONALLY will have to pay due to a strike where workers are trying to veto dangerous work conditions is the most selfish thing I've read all week, congratulations. If it's such a big deal I'll personally reimburse you the fraction of a cent the strike might cost you. Just for good measure I'll also post you a teenie tiny little violin for you to play alone in your room whilst you contemplate how it is that you got so messed up in the brain that you think it's an outrageous imposition on you personally to pay 0.003c so that the people who run the public transport system that makes Sydney function can have a safe and fair job to go to every day. Finding it hard to comprehend the vast and expansive scope of such cursed self-centredness.
    - dealhunter52 on 16/09/2022 - 00:20
      
      +2
      
      Fair wages?? Train Drivers make more money than Doctors in public hospitals and Guards make more money than Nurses & Teachers. This safety issue is just a diversion for their real demand of more money. Whole world is moving towards automated and driver-less trains which have better track record than human drivers. We just keep on feeding this white elephant while they gulp the tax payers money which can be better spent elsewhere.
      
      One of my known is a train driver and makes over $150k a year and says he can get away with a murder on the job because union has his back….It's bloody insane.
      
      If anyone deserves fair wages it's people working in lowest paid industries like hospitality and retail who struggle to make even $40K a year.
      - DealBreaker87 on 16/09/2022 - 10:06
        
        @dealhunter52: funny i know nurses on over 150k, and for a driver to earn money like that they would have to be doing a lot of overtime, and doctors would be on more than 150k easily.
  - TheFyrd on 16/09/2022 - 10:19
    
    +1
    
    I'll be visiting Sydney at the end of the month. As I'm not a Sydney resident and don't pay any of those levies, taxes or fees it should be considered a deal for me right? Bit of savings as a thank you for visiting.
- DavidVox on 15/09/2022 - 07:58
  
  agree, this is just militant unions using dirty tactics that only harms the people.
  - shaibankek2 on 16/09/2022 - 15:03
    
    Ok boomer
    - DavidVox on 17/09/2022 - 11:00
      
      Actually not that generation. No intelligent response from you though.
- sandman87 on 15/09/2022 - 09:13
  
  Surely there is some degree of uncertainty with most deals - website crashes, supplier delays, faulty stock, etc - there's nothing in the OzBargain posting guidelines about a deal having certainty.
  - GG57 on 15/09/2022 - 10:51
    
    I agree and did think that before I posted about my uncertainty. I suppose the difference with this is that the 'deal' is not being created by those that own the business (or similar). If it eventuates, this will be as a result of the actions of an outside party.
    Maybe similar to someone posting that they intend breaking into a football stadium locked gate on match day, and people have an opportunity to enter for free. Is that acceptable to be posted as a deal?
- SrMoure on 15/09/2022 - 14:10
  
  +2
  
  On top of that this is not free for NSW tax payers since they are forking out the bill for the day of service
Homr on 14/09/2022 - 14:47

+7

Can you confirm if this works for ferries? Would love to go from CQ to Manly

also perfect timing for the public holiday on Thursday and then my sick day on Friday. I may also be sick on Wednesday aswell
- beatthatflight on 14/09/2022 - 14:51
  
  +10
  
  If Opal machines are being turned off, that'd be the whole network. Implication is it's being done at the servers, rather than the readers themselves (I did a short stint working on the Opal team a few years back). Same rules would apply to trains, light rail, metro and ferries.
  - Homr on 14/09/2022 - 14:55
    
    Thanks, I don't catch ferries often
    - xoom on 14/09/2022 - 15:02
      
      Perhaps its time to ride for free.
      - Homr on 14/09/2022 - 15:33
        
        @xoom: indeed, hence my question :)
  - Clear on 14/09/2022 - 15:15
    
    +6
    
    The word is that they're being told to trip the circuit breakers for the opal machines at stations. As opposed to Cubic? shutting them down.
    - beatthatflight on 14/09/2022 - 15:34
      
      +2
      
      I did wonder, thinking they'd need Cubic to give them a hand. Circuit breakers…a lot of stations are essentially unmanned (esp lightrail/ferries), could be interesting.
      - xoom on 14/09/2022 - 15:35
        
        +1
        
        @beatthatflight: Just challenge accepted.
      - Clear on 14/09/2022 - 15:36
        
        +1
        
        @beatthatflight: Considering Cubic are getting paid regardless of what happens it'll be interesting to see if they're doing it themselves or not.
      - lancesta on 14/09/2022 - 17:41
        
        +1
        
        @beatthatflight: I was gonna say, I didn't think the Opal tech team would've been unionised due to outsourcing and such. If they could do it further back that would definitely be better. Those solo stations would take a while to turn back on as well.
        
        Wouldn't be surprised if they deliberately connect the opal readers to a breaker that also has some safety system in the future, just so they can say the unions being dangerous lol.
      - Techie4066 on 15/09/2022 - 01:24
        
        @beatthatflight: How will the airport stations work? Privately operated so left on?
    - tonsta on 14/09/2022 - 16:55
      
      +2
      
      Pretty dangerous play from the union, how do the members know which breaks operate what services and if the breaker is also associated with another essential service. Eg lights in bathrooms turn off because some sparky decided to use the opal card reader circuit? I know highly unlikely but how do members know this?
      - Clear on 14/09/2022 - 16:55
        
        +1
        
        @tonsta: I could be completely wrong. It's just what I heard.
      - odysseus on 14/09/2022 - 17:07
        
        +2
        
        @tonsta: And highly ironic, given their ambit claims that this is all due to safety concerns like "a CCTV is in their line of sight".
        
        Playing with circuit breakers is far more dangerous than moving your head.
        
        Juice-Wa on 15/09/2022 - 08:46
        
        @odysseus: Safety only applies to the union if it furthers their ambitions, it's just a bargaining tool.
  - Juice-Wa on 15/09/2022 - 08:44
    
    Union workers don't have access to the servers, and I doubt IT would provide support for them to do this
- stigsphilocousin on 14/09/2022 - 15:19
  
  +7
  
  It would only apply to train services: ferries, the Metro, buses, and light rail wont be covered as they are under different operators and have different EBAs.
  
  The reason why the RTBU elected to push this is this can be deemed to be protected industrial action but only due to them negotiating a new EBA with Sydney Trains and NSW Trains. The other transport modes arent in this situation so OPAL machines and gates will still be working on that end.
  - Homr on 14/09/2022 - 15:34
    
    ok im confused, so only trains are free and other forms of transport are not?
    - stigsphilocousin on 14/09/2022 - 15:44
      
      +1
      
      That will be the case indeed; all other forms of transport are still going to have their OPAL gates/validators turned on and working.
      
      The only way it becomes free for all is if the govt decides to just wear the cost per se and make it free (like they did on Sunday last week).
    - GG57 on 14/09/2022 - 15:45
      
      No-one knows for certain
      - xoom on 14/09/2022 - 15:45
        
        +1
        
        @GG57: We must consult the all knowing magic 8ball.
  - Averell on 14/09/2022 - 18:40
    
    +1
    
    Last time when the let the gates open, it was only at train stations.
    This time, if the readers at train stations are turned off, and the ones at metro-only stations are not - there's no way to get out :-)
    - akl977ad on 14/09/2022 - 19:43
      
      -4
      
      You can get out I believe. You just have to pay the default fare.
      
      Which should be equivalent to the 65km+ fare $11.20
kenplho on 14/09/2022 - 14:50 Comment score below threshold.
- Psygnosis on 14/09/2022 - 14:59
  
  -4
  
  If the government doesn’t want to fix the safety issues and issue fair pay, then turning off opal machines is hardly over the top.
  - ausdday on 14/09/2022 - 15:05
    
    +7
    
    honest question. How much are they paid now? And how much is fair pay?
    - ymottomttdl on 14/09/2022 - 15:54
      
      +20
      
      they're actually paid quite well, but don't let that get in the way of the usual "oh the unions are darlings and the government is shite" spiels. I have actually applied to work on the trains because of how well they are paid
      - ThithLord on 14/09/2022 - 15:59
        
        +5
        
        @ymottomttdl: Theya re taking industrial action due to the NSW Government refusing to officiate the changes required to maintain safety of children at Train Stations.
        
        ymottomttdl on 14/09/2022 - 16:01
        
        +19
        
        @ThithLord: funny that these safety issues only seem to matter when they're also negotiating their pay increases
        
        ThithLord on 14/09/2022 - 16:03
        
        +34
        
        @ymottomttdl: You obviously have absolutely zero interest in enlightening yourself.
        
        What are the safety issues? Here's three:
        
        1 Guard doors automatically lock, preventing guards from assisting passengers on entry and departure (Elderly and the lesser abled will be fine, I'm sure)
        
        2 CCTV blind spot below 1.1 metres. Children, prams, etc. are in this blind spot (Oh I can't imagine that'd be dangerous!)
        
        3 CCTV screens are in drivers line of sight (Perfect!)
        
        4 To end the dispute, the NSW Government offered rail workers an $18,000 bonus earlier this year to drop their safety concerns.
        
        Rail workers refused.
        
        You can't trade off safety for cash.
        
        lol yeeeaaaah they are so doing it for the money.
        
        Do you just believe any old propaganda the NSW Government shove in your face?
        
        ymottomttdl on 14/09/2022 - 16:11
        
        +5
        
        @ThithLord: lol, keep drinking the kool aid (technically flavour aid) why are they even discussing their pay increase during these strikes then if its all about safety?
        
        ThithLord on 14/09/2022 - 16:20
        
        +15
        
        @ymottomttdl:
        
        lol, keep drinking the kool aid (technically flavour aid)
        
        Bro you're the one drinking the kool-aid from the NSW Government.
        
        You do realise the Transport Minister is none other than David Elliott, who famously went on holidays once the the 2019 Black Summer Bushfires started to take hold. Mr Elliott was, at the time, the Minister for Police and Emergency Services.
        
        Literally the Emergency Services Minister went on holidays during the worst bushfires we have ever seen in Australia. NSW Emergency Services Minister David Elliott heads off on European holiday as bushfire crisis continues. This is the guy you think has the railway safety as a concern?
        
        This was a direct quote from Mr Elliott:
        
        After suggestions that the firefighters and other volunteers on the ground during the Black Summer Bushfires were entitled to payment, Mr. Elliott agreed with NSW Rural Fire Services Commissioner, Shane Fitzsimmons, in rejecting the idea [that they should be paid]. Mr. Elliott stated to The Australian: "Anyone who is arguing we have to pay them doesn't understand the ethos of the volunteer in this country."
        
        I love how you completely gloss over the insane safety issues as well as the $$ bribe offered to the workers that they declined.
        
        why are they even discussing their pay increase during these strikes then if its all about safety?
        
        Okay when is a convenient time for you, mate? You want this industrial action to be done in two parts? Seriously, how do you want them to tackle this issue?
        
        zorodluffy on 14/09/2022 - 17:29
        
        +3
        
        @ThithLord: @ymottomttdl are you gonna rebutt these facts or not?
        
        tonsta on 14/09/2022 - 17:20
        
        @ymottomttdl: I only learned about the pay demands in the last month.
        
        Before that I only heard about reworking the trains for safety.
        
        Union need better PR management. Just saying.
        
        DealBreaker87 on 15/09/2022 - 14:12
        
        +1
        
        @tonsta: pay is always the last thing discussed during a bargaining agreement.
        
        tonsta on 14/09/2022 - 16:58
        
        +4
        
        @ThithLord: Gov said they are fixing EVERYTHING they demanded??? So what’s the strike about?
        
        ThithLord on 14/09/2022 - 17:33
        
        +6
        
        @tonsta: Oh, is that why they refuse to put the safety measures in writing?
        
        ETA:
        
        In an explosive interview with Joe Hildebrand on Afternoons, Rail, Train and Bus Union (RTBU) Secretary Alex Claassens has revealed this week’s Sydney train strike could have been avoided.
        
        Mr Claassens explained that the offer of $264 million to modify trains due to safety concerns was never provided to the unions in writing.
        
        “All we want is a commitment to say that $264 million is there to fix the train, we’re happy to sign a deed tomorrow,” Mr Claassens said.
        
        lancesta on 14/09/2022 - 17:46
        
        +3
        
        @ThithLord: tbh the trains shoulda been built in newy from the start, would've made repairs, parts, maintenance much easier and of course kept the manufacturing industry alive. Hopefully they'll actually get fixed.
        
        tonsta on 14/09/2022 - 17:53
        
        +2
        
        @ThithLord: If the deed is signed, everyone goes to work again and trains run on time, clean a tidy? Or is there another problem?
        
        ThithLord on 14/09/2022 - 17:54
        
        +1
        
        @tonsta: Jesus. Move the goalposts much? Why shill for the NSW Government so hard?
        
        You are unbelievable.
        
        tonsta on 14/09/2022 - 18:19
        
        +4
        
        @ThithLord: Let’s wait and see. I’ve learned of a new goal post being built in the last month (pay). I always thought it was about train safety, I guess that only scores a behind if this was AFL.
        
        ThithLord on 14/09/2022 - 18:34
        
        @tonsta: Righto.
        
        [Deactivated] on 14/09/2022 - 19:26
        
        +3
        
        @tonsta: Premier agree on 3.5% payrise, yet they wanted more, hence the strike. state gov also agree to fix those safety thingy above.
        
        Now is just the payrise bit. What's next every union member wants european holiday each year or else!
        
        ThithLord on 15/09/2022 - 07:43
        
        @[Deactivated]: As I've said multiple times, they agreed but refused to put the agreement in writing. Sound like they won't even shake hands on it! You think the Union should trust the NSW Government (who, remember, took the Unions to court!)?
        
        [Deactivated] on 15/09/2022 - 10:07
        
        +1
        
        @ThithLord: NSW Government is elected by the NSW people. Who gives an F about RTBU except its own members.
        
        Be careful not to piss of general public. We need nurses and teachers, but many can get by without train drivers.
        
        People can relocate closer to work and walk, they can buy a car and drive, or cycle or whatever.
        
        Without nurses you'll probably die in the emergency waiting room without being triaged on time.
        
        Without teachers none of your kids will get proper education, means no future generation.
        
        RTBU need to get their (profanity) head of out the sands.
        
        Take the damn 3.5% payrise, even I didn't get that amount of payrise in the last 11 years.
        
        the discombobulated… on 15/09/2022 - 10:26
        
        +7
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        Take the damn 3.5% payrise, even I didn't get that amount of payrise in the last 11 years.
        
        "I got screwed so everyone else should too." is not the argument you think it is.
        
        Juice-Wa on 15/09/2022 - 10:38
        
        +2
        
        @the discombobulated panda: It's actually the argument "why should unions who bully employers be the only ones to get pay rises?"
        
        the discombobulated… on 15/09/2022 - 10:42
        
        +1
        
        @Juice-Wa:
        
        @the discombobulated panda: It's actually the argument "why should unions who bully employers be the only ones to get pay rises?"
        
        "I can't be arsed fighting for a pay rise so anyone who is be damned." is not the argument you think it is, either.
        
        Juice-Wa on 15/09/2022 - 10:47
        
        @the discombobulated panda: Well that's not quite how it works in the real world…
        
        lancesta on 16/09/2022 - 10:54
        
        @Juice-Wa: This is the real world though and they're doing it. Hasn't it worked in the past?
        
        Juice-Wa on 16/09/2022 - 11:47
        
        -1
        
        @lancesta: Yet the drongo union wonder why there's increasing pushback, and why employers are sacking union workers and tearing up enterprise agreements. There's a good reason the union are losing ground and representation.
        
        tonsta on 17/09/2022 - 10:03
        
        -1
        
        @Juice-Wa: Really doesn’t help when the unions says it’s about safety then punish the public each time they chuck a hissy fit. They really need a better strategy to get their stealth pay demands over the line.
        
        ThithLord on 15/09/2022 - 10:50
        
        +2
        
        @[Deactivated]: lol bro, as I've stated many times in thsi thread, the NSW Government are refusing to put in writing an agreement to rectify the dangerous operations on these trains.
        
        I know plenty of OzBargainers don't give a rats about anyone but themselves, but do you need to be so blatant about it?
        
        Children, elderly and the infirm are endangered if they were to use the new trains.
        
        The NSW Gov tried to bribe the Union with $18k payouts and they refused them. Please, enlighten us oh wise one, how they are all about the money when they refused this bribe? You guys are grasping at straws.
        
        tonsta on 17/09/2022 - 10:07
        
        @ThithLord:
        
        The NSW Gov tried to bribe the Union with $18k payouts and they refused them.
        
        Is that to every worker?
        
        whyisave on 14/09/2022 - 21:12
        
        +6
        
        @ThithLord: Thank you, for this summary.
        
        I've usually noticed companies say "no, we don't have the money" when a fair pay rise is requested,
        however, that same company somehow has all the money to fight the workers in court (against a pay rise too)
        
        entropysbane on 15/09/2022 - 06:01
        
        +1
        
        @ThithLord: Nothing at all to do with an election in a a couple of months. Not at all.
    - maurice on 14/09/2022 - 17:39
      
      +3
      
      honest question. How much are they paid now? And how much is fair pay?
      
      Which question was the honest one?
  - kenplho on 14/09/2022 - 15:05
    
    +1
    
    I think you're convoluting a few things. Should the govt fix safety issues and issue fair pay? Yes. But at the end of the day, it's a free labour market. Noone is holding a gun to the employees heads and forcing them to work there. If they don't like the working conditions, work somewhere else. If you choose to keep working there then I don't think you have a right to use company assets as you see fit (i.e. turning Opal machines off)
- happyangus on 14/09/2022 - 15:01
  
  +23
  
  Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they are "striking" in the way that you are thinking of. They are undertaking "industrial action" which can include leaving the barriers open and, yes, walking off the job even, among other things.
  
  But they don't have to be on strike to carry out industrial actions
  - kenplho on 14/09/2022 - 15:09
    
    +1
    
    From the fair work ombudsman website (https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/industrial…):
    
    "The Fair Work Commission (the Commission) can suspend or end protected industrial action that might:
    
    cause significant economic harm to the employers or employees covered by the registered agreement
    
    endanger someone's life, personal safety, health or welfare
    
    cause significant damage to the Australian economy or an important part of it."
    
    Seems like what the unions are doing fit quite well into the first bullet point.
    - BlinkyBill on 14/09/2022 - 15:14
      
      +1
      
      You missed the significant part. If goes to court the economic harm done will negligible in the totality of the budget.
      - kenplho on 14/09/2022 - 15:34
        
        @BlinkyBill: I guess everyone's definition of significant is different, but they did say that they'll turn off the machines indefinitely. 1 day may be negligible, 1 month becomes a problem, and 6 month becomes a significant?
        
        Small businesses are expressing concern over economics of a 1 day national holiday (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/sep/12/austr…). Just putting things into perspective.
    - tommylikeaboss on 14/09/2022 - 16:33
      
      +1
      
      I would consider “significant “ as something that could cause the company to go bust, or cause severe long term damage.
      
      Based on the linked Twitter thread, it would seem that the company is endangering employees/customers/community and causing economic harm to the employees. So don’t forget to scrutinise the company as well.
      - kenplho on 14/09/2022 - 17:04
        
        +1
        
        @tommylikeaboss: Well, if it was a normal company it would've gone bust already. Last year's Sydney train revenue was $1.5B, while expenses were at $3.8B of which $2B was on employees/contractors.
        
        There is plenty of scrutiny around the company on safety and pay, but again, there are a few things that shouldn't be mixed in together. There is:
        - Can/should the fair work commission end/suspend the industrial action
        - Should Sydney Trains fix its maintenance/train problems
        - Should Sydney Trains pay their employees more than the 3-3.5% raise that they've offered
        
        Tbh, I didn't get a 3% raise this year. Is my company causing economic harm to me?
        
        tommylikeaboss on 14/09/2022 - 17:44
        
        @kenplho: Inflation is like 10%, so you could be potentially getting harmed depending on whether your having more difficulty paying your bills or are investing less than you would have into your retirement/future, as you are being effectively docked 10%. I would suggest looking for a new company or something.
        
        Does not sound like their is much scrutiny around the transit company in the media, with the union claiming the media have been attacking them relentlessly for striking.
        
        Your first point was also weak. If the transit company was a private, they would obviously charge more for tickets, but it is heavily subsidised by the government. The government subsidises the train system as it provides significant benefits to the economy and saves the government money on road upgrades and maintenance, which is not reflected in ticket sales.
        
        It is a unions job to ensure good conditions and pay for their members, so I do not see how these points cannot be mixed together. (Though, I could of misinterpreted your last argument as I don't really get what you mean by the first point)
        
        Also the drivers are going to be replaced with robots in the next decades probably, so they need to get all the money they can before that happens lol.
        
        kenplho on 14/09/2022 - 18:42
        
        +3
        
        @tommylikeaboss: On inflation - I understand the impact of inflation, but at the same time don't think companies are obligated to match it in salary increases. At the end of the day, it's a free market. If another employer is willing to pay more then I'm happy to switch, if not I'm not going to demand it of my current company. Just because inflation has gone up it doesn't automatically mean that companies have more profit to distribute.
        
        The media is basically liberal controlled so I wouldn't expect much there in terms of scrutiny. But can't we just each do our scrutiny? There's plenty on this thread already.
        
        I don't think the first point is weak - it's factual at worst. Keeping in mind that this is for Sydney Trains only (i.e. excluding CountryLink which is losing even more money), the fact that employee/contractor cost surpasses ticketing revenue is a concern. The point on saving government money on road upgrades and maintenance is a bit moot since (1) we can't really take away trains without overloading our roads, and (2) maintenance cost of the rail system is on top of the $3.8B of expenses - that would be an additional $1.5B on top of that.
        
        I'm not against government subsidy for social good - but I am for efficient use of taxes, and train systems shouldn't be losing this much money. DB has an EBITDA of $2.3B EUR (aka a profit) - and that's the entire country, and their ticket prices are comparable to ours (~$3 EUR for 1 way in metro cities). The train system in HK is private - trains are automated, fares are cheaper than ours and they turn a massive profit every year. There are more ways to make a profit than to raise prices - it's called efficiency.
        
        The reason why I don't think the points should be mixed is because 2 wrongs don't make a right. Sydney Trains should definitely provide good and safe working conditions for their workers - but the union doing it by turning off Opal readers will just land them in a legal mess later on. On pay, again, depends on what you say is "fair" pay for their members. Honestly I don't know a lot of companies who gave out a 10% pay rise this year to offset inflation. With the government bringing in 200k immigrants I don't see wage growth going anywhere in a hurry.
        
        tommylikeaboss on 14/09/2022 - 21:55
        
        +1
        
        @kenplho: @kenplho
        
        We could each do our own scrutiny, but at the end of the day, individually we can't pressure the government/Sydney trains. You need a big group like a union, or some other person/ organisation with influence, to make changes a reality.
        
        I am not sure if your comparison to Germany and Hong Kong is fair. First with the DB in Germany, they service city to city trains, rather than metropolitan. Admittedly, I didn't do a good job looking it up on google as it looked confusing. With Hong Kong though, their metro has 5 times the ridership with a quarter of the track, so of course it is going to be more profitable. The reason they can get away with this is that they have a much smaller and denser area to service when compared to Australian cities. In fact, we are quite lucky in Australia, as despite our cities populations and distribution we have relatively decent transport compared to other places in the world. Though I do agree that there are inefficiencies with the current system, that a private company would get rid of. For instance, do we really need those guys standing on the platforms with a speaker phone (might be a Melbourne thing).
        
        With respect to the usage of taxes to subsidise the trains, I disagree that it is a subsidy for social good, rather, an economic no brainer. https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/au/Documents/… here is something I spent 10 seconds reading (don't @ me lol), but the benefits of having cars off roads to the economy is huge, and saves lives.
        
        With your final point, keep in mind the union has been in talks with Sydney Trains for a long while, it isn't like this is their opening move, rather a last resort.
        
        Interesting discussion though.
        
        kenplho on 14/09/2022 - 23:23
        
        @tommylikeaboss: I agree individually we can't pressure the govt/Sydney trains (a bit of an obvious point), but (1) there are plenty of other countries that have successfully operated a rail network without the help of unions, and (2) I personally don't feel the need to pressure the govt/Sydney trains.
        
        You're right - DB services everything in Germany. But if you look at their annual report you'll see that ALL their separate business units are profitable. I use them as an example because metro networks are usually more profitable than whole-country networks (e.g. smaller footprint, higher volume). In other words DB should be less profitable than Sydney trains, but they're not.
        
        With Hong Kong, I agree it's a smaller footprint and denser population, but there are a few more nuances that you're missing:
        - Their trains come much more frequent than ours. The Kwun Tong line averages 1 train every 2.3 minutes all day. In Sydney we'd be averaging a train every 15 mins or so. So while they would get more revenue in, it also means the costs to serve would also go up.
        - However, salary of a train driver in HK in considerably less than Australia - they average $23k per year vs $100k in Australia
        - There is also no train guard in HK, which is another saving
        - Looking at the expenditures ($3.8B) of Sydney Trains, more than half is on employees/contractors ($2B). This is before the maintenance bill which is more related to the size of the network, and that's another $1.5B. I'll let you make your own conclusions on comparing the cost base of both companies (hint: it's in the workforce)
        
        On using taxes to subsidise trains - I say it's a subsidy for social good because it's done inefficiently. I don't doubt the social and economic benefit of having cars off roads. I just don't think we've done it in Australia in a way that can be termed "an economic no brainer".
        
        Opening move or last resort - 2 wrongs don't make a right.
        
        RefusdClassification on 15/09/2022 - 05:46
        
        +3
        
        @kenplho: The concept of efficiency is alien to unionized public sector workers. They all expect to be paid $200,000 per year for going to meetings, drinking coffee and reading magazines. Truly a privileged elite of ALP voting parasites. The cost of living for ordinary Australians would be considerably less if we outlawed unions.
        
        Juice-Wa on 15/09/2022 - 09:38
        
        +2
        
        @RefusdClassification: you are very much correct. Efficiency is the bane of the union, because it requires less members to produce the same outcome. Automation is a massive push from unions to eliminate through their agreements. I worked in the Stevedore industry as an engineer, they use "safety" as a roadblock for efficiency, often acting like clowns so that formal incidents can be lodged and more efficient procedures can be scraped. We're talking about people who are earning an average of $170k with barely any prior experience or qualification before their first day on the job. For instance, we installed new automated schedules for the operators to use in one of the vehicles to improve efficiency, they decided they would instead use the new device to watch movies on night shift. We couldn't punish them for this because they were protected by the union. On another night shift they lodged a safety incident because a few of them decided to go for a nap, they lodged an official complaint that they needed more members on shift and they needed ample sleeping facilities. Because safety reports impact management KPIs they will bend over backwards sometimes to avoid them making daily lodgments. So this event ended with them being able to hire new union members and make more overtime available for existing members (these guys love the overtime despite how much they pretend to hate it, it pays really well). Working conditions of union members is amazing and an absolute dream, so I understand why they defend it so aggressively. However, it has major impacts on everyone, it increases overall costs of living due to increased cost of operations and increase of the national average wage (since union members are some of the best paid workers in the world, especially when you consider that a lot of them don't start a job with any qualifications or tertiary studies, that's attained on the job). They also hamstring many supply chains (production and transportation) impacting anyone who needs any item that they themselves cannot produce. At a much higher level it also impacts jobs, increased operating costs make Australia a less viable country for industries that's why manufacturing has mostly been moved offshore (where the union can't get in the way of improved efficiency). But also related to this is that when new industries look to buy or lease land from ALP governments they are forced to hire a union workforce. The union on principle is a great motion, but with all the power the ALP government have given them they have become extremely greedy. There is no place for what the union currently is in a modern society.
        
        the discombobulated… on 15/09/2022 - 10:34
        
        +3
        
        @kenplho:
        
        Tbh, I didn't get a 3% raise this year. Is my company causing economic harm to me?
        
        Inflation was 2.9% for past year so the answer is: likely as you are likely getting paid less in real terms this year as you were same time last year.
        
        Unless you feel you deserved a pay cut in which case: all good.
        
        kenplho on 15/09/2022 - 11:48
        
        @the discombobulated panda: Thanks - it was a bit of a rhetorical question… FYI I'm grateful for being employed. I don't think my company is causing economic harm to me - they pay me.

[Unobtainable / Cancelled] Free Train Travel: RTBU NSW to Turn off Opal Readers at All Train Stations from Wed 21 September

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1 Guard doors automatically lock, preventing guards from assisting passengers on entry and departure (Elderly and the lesser abled will be fine, I'm sure)

2 CCTV blind spot below 1.1 metres. Children, prams, etc. are in this blind spot (Oh I can't imagine that'd be dangerous!)

3 CCTV screens are in drivers line of sight (Perfect!)

4 To end the dispute, the NSW Government offered rail workers an $18,000 bonus earlier this year to drop their safety concerns.

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