[RESOLVED] Is It Normal for a Company to Give a First Year Graduate a Big and Difficult Project?

AussieBogan on 09/09/2022 - 21:09
Last edited 11/09/2022 - 22:29 by 1 other user

Hi Bargainers,

I just graduated from uni and this is my first year working in the industry. My company gave me a very big, difficult and complicated project which was far beyond my capability, knowledge and job title regardless it's my first year and I don't have much experience. The company had a similar project before and were some senior staff doing that project. The company did assign a dedicated senior staff as my mentor to help me throughout the project and purchased many external training resources for me to build up my knowledge. But given my salary is just the average graduate position salary, is it normal for a company to assign this kind of project to a graduate, if not should I negotiate with the company or start to look for other jobs as there are many opportunities around and most companies in the industry are desperate to find staff (and I did got many job offers and chose my current company eventually).

An example of the current situation:
You are a taxi driver and your company asks you to drive a plane. You are still a driver technically and getting paid as a taxi driver.

Edit:
I'm more than happy to learn and build up experience. However, the approach used for this project is very unique and to my knowledge, not many other companies or other projects in this company will be using this approach, so won't help much in my career development unless I want to stick with this company in the long term. I personally don't like this approach as it's very inefficient and there have been many new approaches in the industry taken over this approach.

Cheers

Education & Work

Comments

  • WreckTangle on 09/09/2022 - 21:14
    +13

    Yes. You’re getting paid.

  • original15 on 09/09/2022 - 21:21
    +17

    Negotiate with the company? For what, a pay rise on your first project?
    Good luck OP
    If you ‘did got’ many job offers what led you to choosing this company?
    Perhaps the project has been thrown to you to measure how you respond and whether you sink or swim. Transitioning from uni to work can be difficult, but ask questions, bounce your approach of the senior, ask what the expectations on delivery timeframe and quality are.
    If you were to move companies, it’s just as likely they too would give you projects that are different to anything you delivered at uni.

    • AussieBogan on 09/09/2022 - 21:37
      +2

      Thank you for your advice.

  • jizmo on 09/09/2022 - 21:21
    +9

    Character assessment test.

  • ihbh on 09/09/2022 - 21:21
    +10

    Username checks out.

    When starting out with work, the value from your job is in the learning. If things are as you describe, you've gotten far more than most graduates.

      • ihbh on 09/09/2022 - 21:29
        +9

        What about the process of learning it?

        You've learnt how to learn and can apply in future endeavors.

        • AussieBogan on 09/09/2022 - 21:30

          That's a good point, thanks for your advice.

      • Slippery Fish on 09/09/2022 - 21:31
        +3

        Just because it is unique does not mean you won't learn new and useful things/approaches you can apply to other projects in the future.

        You should quit if you don't see the value as your wasting their and your time

      • EightImmortals on 10/09/2022 - 06:50
        +4

        Awesome! If it's unique and you build up your knowledge now you will be the expert when everyone else catches on. Be grateful for the opportunities. First year out of uni most graduates no nothing and have to be trained to do the actual work. So knuckle down and get into it and you'll be on the big money in no time.

      • davidmwilliams on 10/09/2022 - 13:59
        +7

        That's a naive attitude. I don't mean it to sound harsh, but I've heard that from others and I always find it disappointing.

        Sure, company A might use "ABC" tech and company B uses "XYZ" tech, but the product itself is not the thing you learn or master, it's the business problem you're solving, and that specific technology is merely a tool.

        Let's say you're a typist and the company uses WordPerfect but you know other businesses use Microsoft Word. So what? You don't go around saying you're an expert in a specific word processor, but that you know how to use a word processor. If you can't apply your skills from one product to another then that's a reflection of your capabilities.

        As to thinking you should get paid more because you're working on a complex project - far out. You're learning, and the expectations of you are low. An experienced (higher paid) worker would do it faster than you and not need the training upfront. It's an outlandish expectation to feel any entitlement to receive a pay increase because your first project in the entire workforce ever is challenging.

  • thetrain on 09/09/2022 - 21:23
    +12

    If you are a first year graduate, and they are training you up then go for it. Learn as much as you can and talk regularly to the senior mentor. If I was given this chance as a fresh grad I would absolutely be going for it

    Building experience at this stage in your career will set you up for your next role (whether same company or another) when you can demonstrate you have experience delivering a complex project far above your peers

    • AussieBogan on 09/09/2022 - 21:26

      Thank you

    • whatwasherproblem on 10/09/2022 - 16:37
      +1

      100%. OP is in an enviable position actually, particularly if he's tech sector. Showing that you can quickly upskill yourself in an otherwise-niche technology, and deliver a difficult project on time and on budget, is resumé gold.

  • Ghost47 on 09/09/2022 - 21:43
    +4

    Sounds like a tough project. You need to swim on this project, or at least make sure your managers like you. If they don't like you, and you sink, you're not going to get a good reference afterwards.

    Just take it as a learning experience, I guess.

  • garetz on 09/09/2022 - 21:55
    +2

    Looks like they are setting you up to fail, as some kind of fall guy maybe. Also maybe they do not want the project to succeed.

    tough situation, do what is best for yourself.

    • AussieBogan on 09/09/2022 - 22:11
      +3

      I think the reason they put me on this project was they were short staffed and everyone already had a project going on and I was new and the only one available.

    • whatwasherproblem on 10/09/2022 - 16:33
      +1

      Looks like they are setting you up to fail, as some kind of fall guy maybe. Also maybe they do not want the project to succeed.

      This absolutely happens, but I've never heard of a company hiring a person just to immediately put them on dry-fire, destined-to-fail excuse-for-a-PIP project. Normally you use such write-off projects as a setup to sack the entrenched dead weight of your company instead.

      • garetz on 10/09/2022 - 16:34

        There is probably something happening behind the scenes the op isn't aware of, and they have a new hire to take the heat when shit hits the fan.

        • whatwasherproblem on 10/09/2022 - 16:42
          +1

          There always is, but what's the logic of (paying to) hire a new person to deal with the fallout? Like, how does the business save face doing that when everyone is going to be asking why the new hire was given rein on the project in the first place?

          "Oh, we gave that project to <insert incompetent but mysteriously hard-to-fire dead weight employee here> and he stuffed up. It won't happen again; we've fired <employee> and we'll review our protocols to ensure we deliver quality from now on". It's a better story that way, and has the benefit that you cut costs for the dead weight employee too. Two birds.

        • Yola on 10/09/2022 - 16:55

          If so, why have they given him a mentor who spends lots of time helping him

          • garetz on 10/09/2022 - 17:02

            @Yola: Outward appearance, so the company can say, look we tried, but it didn't work out. Basically this is straight out of a Japanese company book for business and deflecting responsibility, they knew they couldnt do the project and did this to save face because they couldn't refuse the job probably.

            managing your human resources is important in any project, they probably spent the minimum they could, so they can say they tried, but the outcome was predetermined

            You should provide the correct resources for the project to succeed, clearly they did not do that here.

  • AngoraFish on 09/09/2022 - 22:01
    +9

    Fake it until you make it. Own it, ask lots of questions, make your best guess. It's much harder to fail than you think.

  • Benoffie on 09/09/2022 - 22:05
    +1

    Depends, are you teacher? If so, the answer is a resounding yes.

  • DemocracyManifest on 09/09/2022 - 22:06
    +1

    Yes it is. Most of the jobs I have had, have been sink or swim

  • Mokr on 09/09/2022 - 22:29
    +2

    It doesn't have to be perfect. Just make it 80 percent. And yeah bugs are just future.fixes

  • Mechz on 09/09/2022 - 22:37
    +2

    At every step, point out that there is a more efficient way to do this (show your calculations as evidence) and not taking this advice could mean the project fails. Keep a record of it.

    If they tell you to keep doing it the old way you can point back at this evidence that you are not at fault because you raised the risks and they accepted them.

    • AussieBogan on 09/09/2022 - 22:51

      Senior staff already proposed a better approach but the company rejected

      • Mechz on 09/09/2022 - 22:52

        Sounds like it's time to bounce then.

      • [Deactivated] on 09/09/2022 - 22:58
        +4

        Unfortunately this is something hard to comment on generically. Either their reason was understandable or it wasn’t, there aren’t answers here. Try and discuss with other people in the industry. It’s not uncommon to not get to do things the way you want though, unfortunately.

        As long as the person making the call ends up responsible for any consequences you basically give your point of view then do what you’re asked or leave.

  • [Deactivated] on 09/09/2022 - 22:52
    +12

    Jobs don’t pay more because the task is difficult, they pay you less because you’re not very good at it yet.

    You’re thinking about it all wrong, it’s nothing like paying a taxi driver to fly a plane, it’s paying someone to spend 3x as long as someone experienced would take because they’re still learning. They can expect you to do the same work as anyone else, they just should expect you to take longer and ask more questions.

    Ask lots of questions, talk to other people in the industry. Frankly if you’re a first year graduate you don’t know shit. 99% of the real world doesn’t use approaches you think will be common based on no experience elsewhere at all.

    Once you feel you’ve got no more to learn at that job, move on. The best time to negotiate is before you start at a company. You have no scope to negotiate anything pay wise from a position of just having started and needing training, just make sure you do get the mentoring and training you need. Once you’ve kicked some goals at that company your CV will look more impressive and you can move on. It’s a balance between gaining varied experience and not looking like a job hopper. It costs companies a lot to train new people, so they should recognize that in trying to retain staff because they absolutely do when looking at potential new hires that have changed jobs 4x in 2 years.

    • AussieBogan on 09/09/2022 - 23:00

      Thank you!

    • kiitos on 10/09/2022 - 09:49
      +1

      it’s paying someone to spend 3x as long as someone experienced would take because they’re still learning

      Exactly, as well as the time that the mentor needs to spend with you that could be directly elsewhere more profitably.

  • Quantumcat on 09/09/2022 - 22:53

    See if you can get a mentor within the company

    • AussieBogan on 09/09/2022 - 23:04
      +3

      My company have already assigned a mentor and I really like my mentor, my mentor is very patient and experienced and helped me a lot, that's the reason I still want to stay unless it's absolutely necessary to leave.

  • star-ggg on 09/09/2022 - 23:26
    +3

    Your analogy is not correct. It should be "You are a taxi driver and your company is paying you to learn how to drive a plane"

    Like you said this project is beyond your (current) capabilities. However the company is investing the $ to your development and other resources like a mentor. For this, it sounds like a company that is actively looking to align their and your goals.

    On the other hand, if the approach is very unique and the skills not that valuable outside of the company, then I would certainly entertain other job offers. Now is a great time to switch jobs and given the right $ and company, it's worth switching to a company which will teach you skills that have more demand.

  • freefall101 on 10/09/2022 - 00:34
    +4

    If they're paying for training and giving you a mentor then there's no way I'd leave, unless those skills are useless.

    Finish the project, wait for salary review time, point out the amazing job you did for someone so junior and ask for a raise/bonus. If you look for a job elsewhere now you're going to get the same pay without that training and mentor. But once you've done the project, you'll be more valuable.

  • Cheapest Charlie on 10/09/2022 - 00:35
    +3

    Sounds like hell. And if you succeed, you probably have another 30-40 years in these types of environments as a reward.

  • Davesday on 10/09/2022 - 00:59
    +6

    I believe you're thinking this the wrong way. You said the approach used is unique to this project and not many companies use it. As a result it will not help you in your career development. Have you considered learning common approaches will only lead to generalisation? Skills that many will have and in abundance? Yet we complain about bad remuneration packages, or managers saying we didn't stand out, etc? In my humble opinion, you shouldn't reject opportunities to learn new skills or knowledge no matter the difficulty because it will only add to your experience and specialisation. Who is to say an uncommon approach isn't going to lead to success? One day you will be presented with a problem, one that no one is able to solve, but you happen to have an experience that you could tap into and adapt a solution for it. Not many will have the luxury to do that.

    I get the rush to grind as fast as you can to get to where you want to be. But this is not always about what the company could do for you. After a certain stage, it all about what you could bring to the table. Companies will only value and pay for unique talents and skillsets. Now I don't know what your ambitions are nor what your industry is but if you want to be a leader of an organisation in the future, you're going to count on all the experience you gathered during the early days.

    In my humble opinion, do not shy away from difficult tasks. I'm not saying you should recklessly accept any tasks but take the time to understand or listen what they are before jumping into conclusions (and decline them). Study the task at hand and use the experience you have today. See if it is sufficient. A good employee should be able to look themselves in the mirror and identify what they don't have for the task at hand. Identifying and knowing what they don't know is key. Then it is the job of your manager to position and use talent as necessary. Be very transparent with your manager and do your best to manage expectation. At the very least you tried and you gave the manager all the possible implications. But most importantly you tried. You will never be faulted for trying. Beats declining or complaining about a task before you even started!

  • Porker on 10/09/2022 - 04:07
    +1

    Can't see how anyone on OZB can 'actually' confirm or dent your work situation.

    Your descriptions of difficulty range could just be your opinion of the work, where other graduates can do it or indeed you should be able to do it. As example, you said you could do it during the interview or that skill was listed in the position description etc.

    None of this detail has been provided other than to say that you feel you're out of your depth. It's unclear if your work has a structured graduate program, or if you're an extra hand to the regualr team, or if your backfilling a position, etc etc all of which has a different level of expectation.

    Only thing I would suggest is for you to speak up and possibly say you can't do the work, or seek direction on how to complete it or request info on a similar project etc, plus seek clarification on what expectations they have of you and your input.

    When I hire new staff, many tend to present skills and knowledge during interviews that they dont actually have simply to secure the job.

    For me, the ones that survive are the ones that want to improve, where I've had many that simple fake it or have some inability to learn, and then they get salty about why it's not working out (often ones that come through agencies, sadly).

    • AussieBogan on 10/09/2022 - 08:04
      -1

      The job description was all about "driving a taxi", my job title is "taxi driver" and the interview was all about "driving a taxi", now I need to drive a plane.

  • [Deactivated] on 10/09/2022 - 08:45

    I would state this is normal if you are going into law or accounting. Basically your goal for the first year is to shadow your mentor. The problem is most high achievers in a firm are hopeless mentors and whether you stay in the industry or not really depends on how good your mentor is.

    I had a good mentor and as a result I now try to be the best mentor I can. I even do professional tutoring for students to ensure I can build those skills further.

    If this was investment banking then things are different; you are expected to take self-initiative. I doubt it is investment banking as you mentioned there is only an average graduate salary.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/09/2022 - 09:03
      -5

      Anyway, this is my last useful post on ozbargain and I hope it helps you. The mods have disturbed the peace and I think we need to leave in droves. I've found refuge in some other areas of cyberspace, but the censorship here is nuts.

      • avoidfullprice on 10/09/2022 - 09:28

        This is also a self assessed useful comment too. The commenters here are egoistic and i also think we need to leave in droves. People don't take my words with respect!

  • RhyJoh on 10/09/2022 - 09:01
    +3

    I've been in your position before and I know it's difficult because (1) you're appreciative for the opportunity to be employed but (2) you're aware non-graduates would be earning a much higher rate to complete this task.

    Focus on the positives of working on this project. It sounds as if you're working on a niche project and if you excel here you will build up experience and a reputation for your ability to work on this technology and take on tough projects.

    For the first few years of working you're applying your theoretical skills to develop practical work skills. As you're a graduate, you will/should also be given more grace for mistakes. Lean heavily on your senior and use this project to trampoline your future. Show gratitude to your employer and grit to the project.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/09/2022 - 09:02
      +2

      Expect a promotion too if everything goes well.

    • RhyJoh on 10/09/2022 - 09:10
      +1

      I wanted to edit but left it too late.
      If your qualifications do not match the project e.g., "taxi driver flying a plane", I recommend communicating that clearly in written format such as email.

      Objectively bring it to your employer's awareness that the project isn't within the scope of your qualifications. If you're happy to pursue the project, include it in the email. If you're not comfortable with undertaking the project, request a face-to-face meeting to discuss options.

      You will protect yourself if you've notified your employer of your inability. The decision they make from there is a risk they undertake.

  • AndyC1 on 10/09/2022 - 09:13

    What did your mentor say when you asked them if this is suitable for you?

    • AussieBogan on 10/09/2022 - 09:19
      +1

      I didn't ask specifically if it is suitable for me, but we had many discussions and he said something like "I know it's a bit complicated and you will need some time to learn, I don't expect you to finish the project within the same timeframe as if was me doing it, ask me any questions and I will help you whenever you need".

      • brendanm on 10/09/2022 - 09:42
        +2

        Sounds like they want you to learn, not sure why you expect full pay for something you don't know how to do, and will take 10x as long as anyone else to do. Being thrown in the deep end gets you to learn and think, you are lucky that you aren't doing braindead grunt work, and will likely have a massive advantage over others who weren't pushed.

      • AndyC1 on 10/09/2022 - 09:44
        +1

        I suspect that they are seeing if they want to keep you as you are in the probationary period. They are doing this to see if you sink, swim or jump ship.

        I have done similar things, but on a way smaller scale to new starters. I have given new s/w devs bugs to fix that were not bale to be fixed by senior devs and told them that we have tried zxy and it did not work and I do not expect you to fix it, but you are not familiar with the code and may see something we have missed or come up with a new way it could be fixed. I have had one guy who produced a "solution", but it did not work as he just fixed it by doing zxy and I asked did you check that ABC works and he said no. I got him to test ABC and he modified the fix for which I then said did you test D & E and guess what no. He then fixed D and came back and said E could not be fixed and I said you need to listen to people……. He was eventually let go as he could not follow instructions and did not fit in, but that's another story.

      • davidmwilliams on 10/09/2022 - 14:03
        +2

        That sounds like a very wise and helpful mentor.

        So why do you think you should be paid as much as him if he can do it faster than you and without someone else having to hold his hand?

        Your attitude is abysmal. Take the help you're being offered and do the project and stop making trying to make comparisons between yourself and others when you're completely off-base on them.

        • AussieBogan on 11/09/2022 - 11:30

          I'm happy with my current salary and I don't expect I will be paid as same as my mentor. I just didn't expect that I would get such big project in my first year and the approach of the project doesn't align with my profession and my career goal. I would expect to have a big project after having at least one year of experience but not in the first year.

          • davidmwilliams on 11/09/2022 - 12:13

            @AussieBogan: Oh well, look at it as getting a faster start in the industry.

            Where did you get your expectation of not having a big project? You seem to have come into this whole world of work with some unrealistic expectations.

  • avoidfullprice on 10/09/2022 - 09:31
    +3

    Mate you are probably too hard on yourself given a cultural shock from academia to field.

    I find it is not uncommon manager assigns resource to a task not based on skillset nor task complexity, but rather oh we have a problem and you are new and task free.

    Being new/probationary, tackle a subset of the problem slowly but thoroughly. You are new, missing deadline is okay. Come up with a plan to progress towards the outcome.

  • holdenmg on 10/09/2022 - 09:59

    Why would a company hire a taxi driver to fly a plane?

    Is this a Qantas thing? lol

  • Big Dog on 10/09/2022 - 10:08

    This is the basis for what is referred to as "quiet quitting". It sounds like your boss is expecting far more from you than can be reasonably expected from a first year graduate. They'll dangle the whole "promotion" carrot for you but what they'll get is an increase in productivity whilst keeping wages low. That benefits your boss and the company. Not you.

    If you are willing to have your value as a worker exploited, then work the 80hr week. Go on call 24hrs a day. Otherwise, you need to speak to your boss, communicate your concerns and don't buy into the unpaid overtime rubbish. Show strength and leadership that way.

  • ihbh on 10/09/2022 - 10:16
    +2

    Take a step back and think of your long term career objective. Do you want to:

    • One day be a general manager (leading a division), CEO, partner, etc.
    • Own your own business
    • Work to live, not live to work, etc.?

    I had a very poor start to my work life - well paying job where I came in just before 9am and left usually just after 5pm and sometimes between 4.30 and 5pm. Many of my university classmates were working long hours and weekends too (and probably paid a bit more, but not commensurate with the hours they were putting in). Today they are GMs, CEOs, partners and I'm pottering about in the garden, doing school runs, posting on OZB, etc.

    The moral of the story is: your first working years are very important; make sure it aligns with your career objectives. PS: It did align with mine!

  • Brendoo on 10/09/2022 - 10:21
    +2

    Got some actual detail on what you’re taking about?
    Give us an actual real example of what you’re asking about.

    If this is a corporate job then it’s sounds very normal and you would lean on your mentor/colleagues and learn as you go. But without you providing any details whatsoever in your post it’s hard to properly comment.

    No offence, but your post reads as “I don’t want to work too hard and I want everything handed to me on a plate”.

  • Seraphin7 on 10/09/2022 - 14:23
    +2

    Suggest your negotiating position will be much stronger after you deliver this big and difficult project.

    In all seriousness, now is not the time to ask for a pay rise. Now is the time to determine whether or not you can deliver the required outcomes (and what other assistance you might need).

    The project ain't going to change in its doability based on your salary.

  • ChunkyToast on 11/09/2022 - 02:06
    +1

    Get it done.

  • bobbified on 11/09/2022 - 15:25
    +1

    Unless they really can't handle it, some people actually learn better by being thrown in the deep-end. It might suck at the time, but once it's over, everything else appears much easier in comparison.

    Look on the bright side - they probably think highly of you - enough to give you that kind of responsibility.

  • Willy Beamish on 11/09/2022 - 20:57
    +1

    Sounds like someone lied in their resume/interview.

  • digitalbath on 11/09/2022 - 21:06
    +1

    An example of our future right here folks.

  • freekay on 11/09/2022 - 21:07

    I think the majority of people have said the right thing, i.e. opportunity to learn, etc. One thing I will call out though, and it's important that you determine this quickly, is whether you feel like it's SAFE to fail within this company. If the company is backing you and your mentor is backing you then by all means, grab it by the balls and learn as much as you can. But if you get the feeling like your head will be on the chopping block if you don't perform, then I'd be looking elsewhere.

    Psychological Safety is the key here. Companies and managers that give people the room to learn, grow, be themselves, and most important, fail, safely are the ones that you'll come to appreciate. Everyone's gotta hustle, but don't do at the expense of your mental well-being.

  • caixy on 11/09/2022 - 21:17
    +1

    When I am hiring someone I will look at their job history - if a recent graduate was to jump so quickly I would question why this was the case. Whilst there may be a lot of jobs in your field, you may find the next opportunity more difficult if you were to jump ship now.

    The company would not have assigned you if they didn’t think an individual of your grade was capable, with the right support and guidance. Why would they set up their own project for failure?!

    Just remember you are at the bottom of the pecking order - if this is truly is out of the ordinary for a graduate, use it as your opportunity to shine and show your worth. Whilst this methodology or approach may not be useful long term, showing your ability to adapt, learn, work independently and to grasp an opportunity with both hands may set you up for the next opportunity you are looking for and also help bonus time.

  • mrvaluepack on 11/09/2022 - 21:31
    +2

    Lol first graduate job and already whinging. Be happy you've been given the opportunity, itll look good on your resume.

  • Windows98 on 11/09/2022 - 21:37

    Leave and let someone more experienced/willing to do the job

  • Poor Ass on 11/09/2022 - 21:45

    What industry?

  • Homr on 11/09/2022 - 22:06
    +1

    Is your company EY?

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/ey-death-friend…

  • hasher22 on 13/09/2022 - 22:37
    +2

    OP I feel for you cause the comments are just being petty.

    The short answer is yes, I've been in your boat and it's stressful but you'll come out a way better person because of it.

    Throwing you in the deep end will condition you to be more successful in future roles.

    With me, my first graphic design job, I didn't know how to animate and in the interview I said I don't know how to animate and they said it's fine.

    Well it wasn't, a huge competition was held in Sydney and Melbourne and I needed to animate for several LED screens and I had ZERO animation skills. No one to help me either..

    So when I got home, went to YouTube, practice, practice and practice. Learnt the animation jargon and so on. I worked OT without pay cause I needed to learn it. (Unethical but it is what it was back then).

    End game: the animations were great, the ceo of the one holding the competition said it was one of the best animations they have seen from an "experienced" animator. Obviously I wasn't.

    Now this skillset and knowledge increased my portfolio and I know had the confidence to say I can animate which most graphic designers need now.

    It will suck now, but you'll be way better off in the future

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