Are Teachers 'really' Underpaid

Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 15:44
Last edited 01/06/2022 - 21:04

I hear this a lot i got 3 friends that are teachers and the biggest complaint they have is they have to 'do extra' work planning and they feel they dont get paid 'enough' - from what ive seen most 'well' paid jobs people are expected to do some unpaid over times ie Lawyers, Accountants etc

Until i recently looked into the remuneration i always felt they 'deserved' more money but i personally think they are 'fairly' compensated i have linked the Victorian teacher salary PDF 'class' room teachers earn $72k starting to $108k (>10 year experience) - Now teachers who are specialists/leads can earn just under 120k.

https://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teac…

108k would put you in around the 90th percentile of earners which is the top 10%
https://povertyandinequality.acoss.org.au/income-calculator/

now my friends all report they do 'some' work during school holidays but overall there working year is 40 weeks a year plus a few extra hours for planning and marking. When you take in all the holidays into account, ill add this 'wage chart' is as of the end of 2020 so once the new EBA comes in they would probably get another couple % point bump on that.

I personally dont think that 'warrants' the under-paid mantra they push but i might be out of touch i feel like they're actually on pretty good money….

OZ-Bargain is a pretty 'progressive' place so i'd be interested to see what others think on here

Other thing to factor in is this is Victorian and there would be differences between each state

Poll Options

  • 468
    Teacher are Under paid
  • 684
    Teachers are Fairly paid
  • 122
    Teachers are Over Paid
Education & Work

Comments

            • Nereosis on 02/06/2022 - 15:28
              +1

              @Almost Banned: Then why go onto a bargain website to complain about them being overpaid when you actually have no idea how the job works?

            • TheMindsetTraveller on 03/06/2022 - 10:44

              @Almost Banned: That is true, but teachers are often get more of the brunt that they "overpaid + get lots of holiday breaks" and so on. I mean, IF they have it so good, then more people would be wanting to work there OR people who are the complainers of "overpaid + get lots of holiday breaks" etc should go work there since their current job is underpaid.

        • MrDixit on 02/06/2022 - 17:12

          Well paid ≠ overpaid

      • OzzyOzbourne on 01/06/2022 - 20:26

        Because pay is not the only factor

    • filmer on 01/06/2022 - 16:34
      +2

      Most people do not wish to deal with the kids. Yet childcare workers get paid far less.

      • PrettyBrokeTBH on 01/06/2022 - 16:41
        -1

        They also do far less, without any tertiary education and a far lesser child-adult ratio.

        • jjjaar on 01/06/2022 - 16:57
          +3

          A lot of child care workers have tertiary education.

      • pais on 01/06/2022 - 20:22
        +3

        Yet childcare workers get paid far less.

        Agreed, child care workers should be paid more.

        • greatlamp on 04/06/2022 - 09:02

          Imagine being a child care worker always hearing about underpaid teachers on 80-100k p.a.

  • Mechz on 01/06/2022 - 16:20
    +7

    I'd like to hear the opinions of all the parents that had to stay home and actually homeschool their kids during all the lockdowns. Guaranteed they don't agree with OP.

    • dust on 01/06/2022 - 17:19
      +2

      Not saying I disagree with you but just because it's hard to home school your kids it doesn't necessarily mean teachers are underpaid.

      • jellykingdom on 01/06/2022 - 18:57

        I'm not trained as a teacher AND I have my own full time job. It's hardly a fair statement to say I think teachers are underpaid as a result

  • AustriaBargain on 01/06/2022 - 16:21
    +3

    I disagree that any normal job should be expected to do work unpaid. A lawyer does extra work sure, but, well I'll let Gene Hackman from the movie The Firm explain it:

    Promotions, raises, bonuses, survival, everything depends on billing. You bill a client an hour for any fraction of an hour you spend thinking about him.

    Here's the actual clip https://youtu.be/JzH1Z17c4yc?t=61

    I think if teachers need to spend three hours a day at home marking tests or planning courses, then they should get paid for it and that "extra" time that we know they will need should be factored into their contracts.

    And AI will be assisting teaching kids in a few decades, so why begrudge the last generation of human teachers fair pay for fair work.

    • Almost Banned on 01/06/2022 - 17:07
      +1

      Well, Gene Hackman was absolutely right about the first sentence, and would be deregistered for doing the second sentence here.
      In Australia law firms typically work on 6 minute units - and most cost agreements do provide that any portion of that 6 minutes is treated as 1 unit - but you try doing that for an hour and you will have BIG problems.
      As for the teacher comment, I think you will find that most teachers have contact, and non-contact (DOT) time during their school day. They also have PD (or pupil-free) days. Most other professions do not have no contact time or client free time. And most professions have a 'reasonable overtime as required' expectation.

      • AustriaBargain on 01/06/2022 - 17:45
        +1

        Contracts can specify overtime, but often it's paid, or if you do 10 hours overtime one month then you do 10 hours less the next month to balance it. Employers that expect workers to do unpaid overtime when that is not in their contract just because "it's what's expected" are yanking your chain, just trying to get free work out of you. What are they going to do, fire you for doing exactly what you agreed to do in your contract? For most professions I'd call their bluff. If it were a job where I could earn a 40k bonus if I demonstrably help my team earn hundreds of thousands more in billings, then I might do "unpaid" overtime, but it wouldn't really be "unpaid" if I'm expecting a huge bonus for the extra work.

  • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 16:22
    +6

    Some people here think that teachers are overpaid considering the very minimal positive outputs that they are able to deliver in this crazy world.

    Others believe that teachers are underpaid which has a direct correlation with the state of our kids/schools etc. Hence some wish for increased spending towards the education sector.

    But surely both sides can atleast agree that there are serious issues with the Australian education system.
    I am an immigrant from a third world background who came here to study at a University in Melbourne and was completely taken aback by how much the locals kids here were lacking in their basic mathematical and comprehension skills.

    More funding isn’t always the solution for every problem, government will make you believe that but it isn’t always true.
    Charter schools in the US that run privately and are affordable to all are setup in the most impoverished neighbourhoods, taking in troubled kids/dropouts from the public schools and turning them around to a point where they are now starting to compete with ivy league students from very privileged backgrounds.

    • LanceVance on 01/06/2022 - 16:28
      +1

      Couldn't agree with you more.

      • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 16:31

        Well I am glad to hear that.

        John Stossel did a journalistic piece on them on his YouTube channel, you should definitely check that one out. Its under 10 minutes long from what I can remember.

        • LanceVance on 01/06/2022 - 16:35
          +2

          The lack of basic life skills for kids coming out of school I've always found startling, how 18 year olds can be considered 'ready for the world' when they're not even taught how to save or lodge a tax return is a great shame. It goes to show that those graduating high school used to be considered ready for the workforce or adults, whereas now in many cases it is merely a precursor to many more years of education. Showing that the real value of what they're actually being taught is constantly diminishing despite what would be suggested by the constant rise in education spending.

          • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 16:43
            +3

            @LanceVance: Some conspiracy artists might argue that this dumbing down of the society is deliberate and intentional. As it’s always easier to oppress the less educated/miseducated and the uninformed.

            Would love to hear your take on that.

            • LanceVance on 01/06/2022 - 16:52
              +1

              @Gervais fanboy: Wouldn't surprise me at all. Especially as our education system is based on the old Prussian system which was designed not to have a citizenry of critical free thinkers but to produce workers with enough basic skills to perform the general tasks that society requires.

          • Mokr on 01/06/2022 - 16:48
            +4

            @LanceVance: Lodging a tax return is a great skill but a boarder skill of understanding reading comprehension and writing means they should understand how

          • Oneguyinmelb on 02/06/2022 - 15:11
            +2

            @LanceVance: The bigger question is it the fault of the teachers that kids don't have basic life skills…or is that the fault of the parents?

  • djones145 on 01/06/2022 - 16:27
    +3

    happy with primary school teachers. with a one year 1 kid, they take 30 of them for 6 hours off parents hands, I'm happy to pay them 200k! lol

    I sure I would go crazy teaching kindy or year 1 kids….

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 16:39
      +6

      The happiest people on day one of the school year are usually the parents.

      • djones145 on 01/06/2022 - 16:47

        can't wait to my second go to schoooool

  • WreckTangle on 01/06/2022 - 16:32
    +14

    I honestly think you are pretty clueless about how hard teachers work OP. Maybe stick to judging your own profession hey, bub.

    • Almost Banned on 01/06/2022 - 17:09

      Right, the old 'if you don't do the job, you can't judge the job'.
      It was a line that used to be popular with police. Not so much anymore.
      The fact is that public school teachers are employed by the government and paid for by the taxpayer. Every taxpayer has a right and an interest in ensuring that money is well and properly spent.

      • GG57 on 01/06/2022 - 17:13
        +2

        So the question should have been: Is the provision of education services by the government providing a good return on investment?

        • Almost Banned on 01/06/2022 - 17:23
          +1

          I agree that would have been an excellent question - but I think it is also valid to question each aspect of the expenditure, and I think we can all agree that teacher pay is a significant part of it.

        • orangetrain on 01/06/2022 - 18:14

          It looks like it's a no, private schools are getting more money than public schools!

        • MrDixit on 02/06/2022 - 17:17
          +2

          Yep - in terms of ROI I think we underinvest in education and mental health early intervention.

      • Nereosis on 02/06/2022 - 15:29
        +2

        Tell me you fundamentally don't understand how taxes work without telling me you fundamentally don't understand how taxes work.

  • PrettyBrokeTBH on 01/06/2022 - 16:34
    +22

    I'm a teacher - and this is my average day/week at the moment and I earn 80K /year. Keep in mind this is different everywhere, every school and even in different year levels.

    Arrive at work at 8, leave at 3:30. Work through any lunch breaks to minimise work at home.
    Do approx ~20 minutes of work at home each day.
    Do approx 30 minutes of work every Sunday evening.

    During report card season (currently) - I am very efficient at working due to multiple screens/fast typing etc. I spent my whole Saturday just gone, and additional ~1 hour each day for one week and now they are done until next Semester. On my holidays I will do about 6 hours of work for the upcoming term (Preparing resources/checking everything still there etc.)

    I think teachers are fairly paid, and that's due to the fantastic team I am in. I don't need to create everything, because someone else already has, I just create one learning area. Last year, when I was at a different school, all teachers just did their own thing - and I hated it - felt like quitting.

    So I guess what I'm getting at is - if you're in a good school/team - Fairly paid. If you're in a terrible school - underpaid. A good arguement to the "overpaid, underworked" crowd is why is there a shortage? Why doesn't everyone teach if it's so easy and such good money?

    • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 16:39
      +3

      Damn I have learnt more about teachers and their work structure from your one comment than I did in my total 12 years of schooling.

      Also, it’s nice to know that it’s more about getting the structures and operating procedures right rather than what everyone else here is trying to suggest.

    • filmer on 01/06/2022 - 16:42

      It sounds like on average you do a bit less but roughly comparable hours to most other jobs. 30minutes less on your average day, but 4 weeks of a year you do 30 minutes more each day and a full Saturday. ~5 weeks of more 'leave', but you spend one of those weeks doing prep. I would assume the time spent marking and doing reports could really skyrocket depending on what you teach.

      To answer your last question. The main reason is not everyone has the ability to deal with that many children (and parents) every day. I know I wouldn't be able to.

    • GG57 on 01/06/2022 - 16:44
      +2

      I think you forgot an important aspect, in that the majority of your day (say, 6 hours?) is teaching to a largish group of children (depending on your role, they could be 5-6y.o. or 17-18y.o.). And you need to do that effectively, whilst managing a group with wildly ranging skill levels.

      • jrowls on 01/06/2022 - 20:55
        +9

        yeah, everyone's here talking purely about hours and days, but if you were doing something that involved i think the expectation would not be the same as if you were doing office-based work.

        6 hours of teaching =/= 6 hours of being an accountant, i would imagine. my job is reasonably taxing on the old brain box, but if you add in a couple of involved meetings or if i have to do a client presentation etc (as opposed to a reasonably clean day where i can actually 'work'), i'm knackered.

        with that in mind, the argument about 'total hours and days worked : salary' becomes moot and it becomes (as it should) 'is the current balance and quantity of contact hours : prep hours appropriate'. the answer to that argument is self-evidently 'no'. oh, and the same can be said for basically on-the-ground every public service i.e. nurses etc.

        the argument over pay is a separate issue. i would suggest that teachers probably are underpaid as there have not been significant pay rises in a very long time, workloads have gone up (as have education/training requirements), as noted above, contact hours : prep hours has gone out the window, class sizes have gone up, administrative burden has gone through the absolute roof.

        for all those consultants et al who seem to have no concept of things without a dollar sign next to them, imagine that you were a teacher and you charged your time like a consultant. on top of your hourly rate covering your contact hours and prep hours, you'd also have to charge for:
        * shepherding children for multiple nights at camps
        * counselling children and dealing with trauma (i know a primary school teacher who had a student hang themselves last year - not so much of that as an accountant)
        * dealing with neurodivergent children who may realistically need to be at a special school, or, if you taught in another country, would have a support teacher to assist you with
        * dealing with parents
        * endless admin work and useless certifications that are required to do your job but do nothing but take time away from doing it
        * probably a myriad of other awful things i can't think of bc i've never been a teacher

        think about how much extra you'd charge for them as a consultant. i know when we do fieldwork/engagement/presentations etc the rate is pretty high compared to desktop work, reflecting not just the extra cost of doing the work, but the effort that goes into it.

        final point: teaching is totally different in other countries in a range of ways (more prep hours, less contact hours, smaller class sizes, shorter days, the list goes on), but one point worth considering is that in some education systems, the STANDARD is to have a teaching assistant. other governments value teaching at least ((1xTA salary) x (number of teachers)) more than we do.

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 16:47
      +1

      In my experience (40 years in primary ed, classroom based), the only people that worked these hours,

      Arrive at work at 8, leave at 3:30. Work through any lunch breaks to minimise work at home.
      Do approx ~20 minutes of work at home each day.
      Do approx 30 minutes of work every Sunday evening.

      would have been considered under-performing, and put under supervision. Having been part of a national view of teaching workloads (initiated by the last Fed Labor Government), it was found to be common for teachers' work loads to be >50 hrs/wk.

      • PrettyBrokeTBH on 01/06/2022 - 16:51
        +5

        What are you suggesting I should be doing during my time? I use all of my NCT marking and printing/assigning tasks for the following week. I use all of my lunch breaks moderating and marking assessments. All of my students are succeeding, with different definitions of success for each student.

        I'm sorry that the teachers from 30 years ago cannot work efficiently due to not knowing how to convert a document to PDF, but don't misplace my efficiency for anything other than that. If teachers want to re-create the wheel and change their lesson on how to measure perimeter every year, go for it, I'll stick with giving my students a positive, happy teacher who isn't overworked and running on empty.

        Edit: It may be worth mentioning, I teach lower primary - I'm sure marking a Year 12 ATAR assessment takes much longer.

        • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 17:07

          I'm sorry that the teachers from 30 years ago cannot work efficiently due to not knowing how to convert a document to PDF

          I've got to laugh at this. Having had disabled students with all of their teaching materials prepared digitally, to enable them to access from anywhere on campus, on any school device, or on their personal modified and customised devices I beg to differ.
          Having retired, as an AST2, and having been involved in both school and state level curriculum writing, and delivered at national and international mid-school conferences I have a good understanding of the workload.

          • PrettyBrokeTBH on 01/06/2022 - 17:13
            +4

            @DashCam AKA Rolts: Yet you still didn't answer my question. Why should somebody achieving the same results both academic and social-emotional be put on supervision due to having a healthy work-life balance and completing the same amount of work in less time?

            • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 17:24
              -4

              @PrettyBrokeTBH: Because someone working the hours you quote is not completing all of the requirements of the job from my perspective.
              Where were the
              - extra-curricula offerings,
              - meeting times with parents,
              - working on the individual learning plans for your students,
              - team meetings with your colleagues,
              - meetings with budget groups,
              - cluster meetings with teachers from nearby schools,
              - your own professional development meetings? (That is to name a few that I can think of at the moment.)

              • PrettyBrokeTBH on 01/06/2022 - 17:31
                +9

                @DashCam AKA Rolts: Re-read my first comment.

                I'm a teacher - and this is my average day/week at the moment

                Do you think on an average week all of these things happen? Would you like me to list every disco I attend, or every camp that happens? Guess what - they don't happen every week, or even every term.

                If you want to talk about perspectives, I think people like you are the reason for the shortcomings of graduating teachers. So many graduate teachers feel as if they are not doing enough, when they absolutely are, because of people like you parroting that they used to work 60 hours so you should too.

                How about start looking at student data, academic outcomes and community perceptions to evaluate teacher performance instead checking your watch every time you see a teacher leave before the sun goes down.

                • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 17:54
                  -5

                  @PrettyBrokeTBH: If I left school on any day excepting Fridays, I would have missed at least one of listed requirements.

                  I think people like you are the reason for the shortcomings of graduating teachers.

                  Some people entering teaching have the mistaken belief that the job mirrors the hours of student attendance. Your comment reflects this.

                  Arrive at work at 8, leave at 3:30.

                  As for

                  instead checking your watch every time you see a teacher leave before the sun goes down

                  I never judged a colleague on their hours on campus, but those who weren't getting the required work done certainly stood out.

                  • YBAF Pilot on 01/06/2022 - 21:53
                    +3

                    @DashCam AKA Rolts: Thank the lord I don't have to work with the likes of you.

                    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 22:09
                      -1

                      @YBAF Pilot: I'm all good, but thanks for clarifying.

                    • tempco on 02/06/2022 - 16:35
                      +1

                      @YBAF Pilot: Lol absolutely my first thought. Sadly people like that have more of a say on teacher workloads than your average teacher.

                      • DashCam AKA Rolts on 04/06/2022 - 11:05

                        @tempco: No it's not staff who say what your workload looks like, it's the nature of the job and system, school and parent demands. If someone on the staff is doing the minimum, others will have to pick up what they are not doing, if not at that time, then the following year dealing with the students. Just an ugly truth that some don't like to hear. The average teacher is working a lot more than the hours claimed by PrettyBrokeTBH.

                        A 2021 report by Australian Institute for Teaching and School Leadership says that more than half of the state's full time teaching staff work reported working on average 60-hours per week,
                        https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-04/teacher-shortages-nsw…

        • djsherly on 01/06/2022 - 23:11
          +1

          Some problems multiply by the time you you’re teaching y9 and 10.

          You have students with comprehension abilities ranging from y2 to y10 are you’re expected to have them succeed.

          In lower primary those differences are less pronounced but by the time they’re in high school, teachers have their work cut out for them as they try to teach the curriculum and differentiate that curriculum for multiple cohorts of student ability and then mark accordingly.

          My Mrs has a relatively easy first couple weeks of term but that ends up being 10-12 hrs a day leading into term and semester break as she’s busy marking and trying to work out how dipshit , who can hardly hold a pen, let alone write their own name, is ever going to bubble out of the year they’re in. At the same time she is trying to work out how to reward the smarter kids who put up with dipshit and still succeed.

          No other workplace is like this.

        • tempco on 02/06/2022 - 16:56

          I teach ATAR and mark ATAR exams at the end of the year - it doesn’t change much in terms of time spent. You just find it the time (e.g. ask for relief as you need to mark, and if admin say no just run docos for lower school and mark during that time). Some teachers are happy to mark during the weekend or in their own time and that’s fine for them, but not for me.

      • hornbill on 01/06/2022 - 21:10

        I agree, sounds like they’re skimming through with bare minimum effort (yet still has no lunch break and has to work after hours) and lucky to have a team that shares the load of creating teaching units. Thing is, teachers are expected to create programs that suit their own learners and other teachers can’t do that for you. So basically they are saying they are fairly paid because they get by not quite doing the job justice, therefore, a teacher doing the job properly would be underpaid.
        Their username also suggests they are underpaid!

      • tempco on 02/06/2022 - 16:32
        +1

        So what I’m reading from this and your comments are that you’re partly to blame for unrealistic expectations on teachers.

    • jjjaar on 01/06/2022 - 17:05
      +4

      It’s great you’ve organised such a decent structure. I know quite a lot of primary teachers and your experience echoes some of theirs.

      But your point

      due to the fantastic team I am in.

      is absolute key here.

      Some others I know are in a team with people who have never taught before, due to all the shortages. This has meant they are hand holding / mentoring several others along with trying to get their own work done. They’re not leaving work until 7ish most nights and then working again at home.

      A bad team, or disorganisation, can be awful.

    • WreckTangle on 01/06/2022 - 20:09
      +2

      But the good teachers also do…camps where you basically work 24/7, parent teacher-nights, info evenings, sport activities and professional development.

      • fossilfuel on 01/06/2022 - 20:51
        +9

        I don't need to create everything, because someone else already has

        And this is why some people find teaching easy because someone else is doing it.

        Someone else is planning parent teacher nights, scheduling parents/creating a booking system, organising feedback, phoning interpreters, chasing up parents, phoning parents who can't make it at other times etc

        Someone else is coordinating info nights, calling organisations, liaising with speakers, booking rooms, communicating with parents, writing notes home, creating resources etc

        Someone else is calling the sports organiser, booking the event, organising transport, collecting first aid/stationary/resources, writing the risk assessment, writing/collecting permission notes, writing variation of routine, chasing parents who have not returned notes, creating alternative work for students not attending etc.

        Someone else is calling the professional development group, coordinating venues, organising casual staff, splitting classes if there's no casual, creating/organising work, writing handouts about student accomodations/differentiation and organisation of the day.

        At public schools, classroom teachers are doing this. Fine if the commenter wants to focus on teaching then go home. However, there is always someone else who is doing this work.

        Most teachers are either doing these tasks before/after hours or on the weekend and they do it for the students. Unfortunately many teachers are burning out.

        TBH I love school camps but my god there's a ton of work behind the scenes to get everything to work.

        • DashCam AKA Rolts on 02/06/2022 - 10:09

          Great comment.

        • tempco on 02/06/2022 - 16:39
          +2

          A lot of what you mentioned are things admin should do and not teachers (HoLA, 2IC, DPs, year cos). They are paid more and are given student-free time. If you as a teacher take up additional duties for no extra pay, that’s your choice but don’t try to guilt trip other teachers into doing it as it’s not their role.

    • mskram on 02/06/2022 - 13:14

      What sort of setting do you teach at? Which KLA?
      I agree with the pooling of resources in-faculty, I notice less burnout in faculties that do that.

  • Esky85 on 01/06/2022 - 16:39
    +2

    I'd be interested to see how teaching salaries compared to other similar mandatory degree qualification jobs. Similar in terms of difficulty of course and of demand for jobs. I've heard teachers say that there are heaps of other jobs that required degrees that get payed more.

    Would anything change if you include tertiary teachers/instructors? Think about this: You are identified as one of the best among your peers at your chosen profession and you want a chance to shape/influence your industry. You have 20 years experience. You become an instructor in your chosen field and you are good at your job. You had to upskill to become a teacher so that meant extra qualifications. You are one of only a handful of instructors in the country that can teach new people coming through the ranks. Now given that scenario, you would think that you would earn at least what you could have if you had stayed in your profession, but guess what… here's a 20% pay cut to base salary and no overtime opportunities. How is that fair?

    • GG57 on 01/06/2022 - 16:46

      "…payed…"

      ?

      • Esky85 on 01/06/2022 - 17:03

        Thanks for your service - fixed "paid"

  • JimmyF on 01/06/2022 - 16:46
    +7

    Are Teachers 'really' Underpaid

    Considering all the 'cries' from parents doing homeschooling, yeah I think they are under paid!

    • U4333439 on 02/06/2022 - 07:24
      +1

      I think anyone doing two jobs would find it objectively difficult. Also anyone just commencing a job as well as being largely unsupported.
      This isn't a reasonable justification.

      • JimmyF on 02/06/2022 - 09:18

        I think anyone doing two jobs would find it objectively difficult.

        Who said people had been doing two jobs? Lots of people hadn't been working so only doing one job aka home schooling.

        Also anyone just commencing a job as well as being largely unsupported.

        It was mostly only the primary school kids who needed teaching, you should have done all this 'work' yourself as a child. How hard can it be? Which is a common answer to teachers.

        Our school fully supported us, couldn't fault them.

        This isn't a reasonable justification.

        Sounds like you haven't done home schooling then. So how about you do some 'home schooling' and come back again.

        • U4333439 on 02/06/2022 - 16:23

          No, incorrect assumption. I home schooled two kids pre-k and year 2. My wife and I split it WHILE working full time jobs. Yes, it was gruelling - only because it was new material though AND trying to juggle work.

          My school was also good given the situation, but one teacher divided by a full class in a new environment will obviously leave parents largely unsupported. Not supported as I would expect to be as a new teacher learning the trade.

          My point was that "parents find juggling home schooling with full time jobs" does not prove "teaching is underpaid". This seems simple logic to me, but you seem to disagree.

          • JimmyF on 02/06/2022 - 16:50

            @U4333439:

            My point was that "parents find juggling home schooling with full time jobs" does not prove "teaching is underpaid". This seems simple logic to me, but you seem to disagree.

            So kids pre-k? So no schooling for them and a year 2, so the basics of the basic stuff then, but you still found it 'gruelling' for one kid. Try that again with 25 kids and come back again.

            So you think it would be a piece of cake if you hadn't been working full time as well?

            • U4333439 on 02/06/2022 - 18:55
              +1

              @JimmyF: My pre-k did have daily assigned work and usually attend school 5 days 9-3.

              My personal experience was that schooling children of a younger age was MORE difficult as they are unable to work independently and must be assisted with every task. Do this for two students on different tasks at the same time…

              Yes, I think it would have been simple if I wasn't working full time. The managing children is not the issue (we are parents), the work is not difficult (they are in junior school), and the activities were provided.

              Obviously 25 kids would be harder than 2. I never expressed otherwise. Harder than many other jobs? No I don't think so.

              I respect teachers and believe they do s great job. I think a 100k salary sounds fair compensation. More relevant to this comment line though…
              I DON'T THINK PARENTS HAVING DIFFICULTY WORKING AND HOME SCHOOLING THERE OWN CHILDREN IS RELEVANT TO THE QUESTION OF WHETHER TEACHING IS UNDER PAID.

  • Unorthodox on 01/06/2022 - 16:52
    +1

    Have a few friends who are teachers in both public and private (as well as semi).

    The thing is that teaching degrees don't require you to be intelligent, organised and able to teach effectively.

    All my friends are young, teach technical subjects that they are good at (think advanced math, IT etc) and can use technology to assist in their teaching and admin find that they are more than adequately paid.
    Most have found permanent positions within their first 18mth contract periods and a few have gone to private schools where the money even higher.

    The pay debate has other factors to consider:
    - extra holidays which are paid (school holidays) and curriculum days
    - the unions have done a lot which mean in some states, teachers can take parental leave or career leave for multiple years and still have a job guaranteed
    - sick leave and whatnot is easily filled by CRTs
    - if the location of the school is convenient, the teachers can avoid long commutes and plan their permanent residence easier
    - teachers whom are permanent get certain perks such as no LMI etc
    - lifestyle wise, it's better than an office job where you sit down all day
    - you get paid for school camps, excursions, etc

    Like any other job, if you're good and network etc, you'll do very well. If you don't manage your workload and organisation, you'll fall behind and do overtime to catch up… Like any other job.

    Adding on:
    As a graduate, if you get a permanent position at a public school, you can easily hit $70k+
    If not permanent, you would still get close and either work to become permanent there or keep applying.
    If you are not full time, you can be a CRT and get a few hundred per day whilst working casual until you get a full time role if you wish

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 17:12
      +6

      you get paid for school camps

      Of course, who wants to be on duty, 24hrs/day for x days voluntarily. Camps may be fun for students, but there is a heap of work for the teachers in preparing/planning and actually supervising once on the camp, meaning little to no sleep for the duration of the camp.

      • Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 17:20

        I guess it depends on the camp some camps are to Rome, Paris or LA (Disney World) etc

        • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 17:32
          +4

          Even more responsibility for students' welfare whilst overseas as well as the transport legs. This would be a logistical nightmare.
          If you are on a local camp and a student is injured/becomes ill, call an ambo, or drive them to the nearest medical facility.
          Can you imagine the nightmare of dealing with the USA medical system, or being in a non English speaking country and navigating the required care, whilst keeping parents in the loop and organising the supervision of the other students?
          This is all part of the prep. What happen if a student gets separated or deliberately heads off?

        • JimmyF on 02/06/2022 - 09:23
          +1

          I guess it depends on the camp some camps are to Rome, Paris or LA (Disney World) etc

          hahahaha yeah all 'common' trips for schools…..Oh wait no it isn't

      • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 17:25
        +9

        I dont get paid for camps aside from the standard daily rate. There's no compensation for supervising 24/7 and being away from home.

    • WreckTangle on 01/06/2022 - 20:11
      +4

      you get paid for school camps

      They don’t

    • [Deactivated] on 01/06/2022 - 22:48
      +1

      I thought camps would be fun and relaxing…boy was I wrong.

    • pais on 02/06/2022 - 08:08
      +3

      All my friends are young, teach technical subjects

      This contextualises your perception more than you know - you & your friends are young, so your perception is mostly around the first few years of post-graduate life. At 25, a "guaranteed" 70k pay cheque seems appetising when your peers receive 60k graduate offers.

      Then your (technically proficient) teacher friends will hit the ceiling within the next decade, while their technically proficient peers continue to improve their remuneration. i.e. Your teacher friends at the age of 60 will be earning the equivalent of what they were on when they were 35, and the other professions out-earn 2:1.

      Adding on:
      As a graduate, if you get a permanent position at a public school, you can easily hit $70k+
      If not permanent, you would still get close and either work to become permanent there or keep applying.
      If you are not full time, you can be a CRT and get a few hundred per day whilst working casual until you get a full time role if you wish

      Of course, the vast, vast, vast majority don't get permanent positions straight out of the gates and are instead on short term / temporary contracts for the first few years of their career. As a CRT, you seldom make equivalent to full time wages as the work is inconsistent. My wife is a teacher with 10+ years of experience and good relationships with multiple schools & principles (works 2 days/week post-kids) and gets offered max 1-2 days CRT, mostly via the school she is already employed at.

    • JimmyF on 02/06/2022 - 09:23
      +2
      • extra holidays which are paid (school holidays) and curriculum days

      The curriculum days are not holidays. They are working days.

      • sick leave and whatnot is easily filled by CRTs

      Is this not the case in other jobs? Teachers are allowed sick leave just like everyone else.

      • if the location of the school is convenient, the teachers can avoid long commutes and plan their permanent residence easier

      This applies to any job, also the school might not be convenient and they have a loooong commute.

      • teachers whom are permanent get certain perks such as no LMI etc

      Police and many other service people get this to.

      • you get paid for school camps, excursions, etc

      Considering a lot of parents don't want to look after their own kids at all, why would teachers head away on a camp unpaid? Would you do a work trip unpaid?

      The fact is, they don't get any extra pay, just their normal pay.

      As a graduate, if you get a permanent position at a public school, you can easily hit $70k+

      Which is classed as entry level money for someone been to uni.

  • Frozensage on 01/06/2022 - 17:08
    +7

    Tell you who's overpaid, those ppl who holds up lollypop signs telling you to slow/stop whilst joking with their other overpaid mates and having a ciggy.

    • mrhanky71 on 01/06/2022 - 17:54

      Agreed. Half of them just stare at their phones all day

      • whatwasherproblem on 01/06/2022 - 21:57

        Oi, little Johnny lost Rock-Paper-Scissors fair and square, which is why we get to stand around in high-vis vests having a laff while he digs the hole himself. It'd be unfair to the spirit of the game to help him.

  • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 17:21
    +16

    Always love it when non Teachers go on a rant to tell us teachers how little we work for such great pay.

    • no permanency in your first 10 yrs
    • that 10 year tier level you can't actually reach. Step 9 you have to apply for, same with step 10. So make it more like 15 years.
    • imagine being stuck at that salary for life, regardless of performance or qualifications. Most teachers have multiple degrees and post graduate qualifications.

    My day starts at around 730. I count myself lucky to finish by 4-430. That excludes meetings, sports, clubs, camps, excursions etc. I try very hard not to take work home but there are periods, especially during marking and planning periods where that can't be avoided. Like marking 200+ 1000 word essays in less than a week. Obviously can't happen during class!

    And no, there's no 12 weeks off. If you're contract, there's NO PAY!

    I dont get breaks like other workplaces. I have to pee on the way to a class if I'm lucky or wait for a NIT period and hope I don't get a relief.

    Then there's the abuse - the threats from students and parents. I've been punched and sent to hospital. I've had furniture thrown at me, I've been called everything you can imagine.

    I wonder if people make the same complaints about police and nursing pay levels? 🤔

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 17:34
      -2

      I wasnt bagging out teachers i was just surprised even the lowest paid would be close to the the top 20% of earners not saying they 'dont deserve' it i would agree it is a 'hard job' but it isnt like you on 'bang' average money either. I often hear complaints about 'crap pay' when imo it sounds more like you have 'crap' conditions

      There is a difference to not being 'paid' fairly and not being 'treated' fairly.

      • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 17:41
        +10

        I look at it like this

        I have a double degree and two post graduate qualifications (plus others)

        I teach senior levels so high amounts of administrative burden and pressure.

        My start pay is (as of 2022 assuming permanent) $74769 (in SA)

        A police officer at PC level (no degree required) $71067

        After degree/Senior Constable $87449-$101058

        That excludes shift penalties, risk penalties etc. And they haven't capped out yet.

        See the discrepancy?

        • Almost Banned on 01/06/2022 - 19:02
          +7

          Do you want to kick off an "Are cops overpaid" thread?

          • greatlamp on 04/06/2022 - 09:08

            @Almost Banned: I want my cops to be paid as much as possible.

            If you pay them dirt, the only people who will hang around are the psychopaths, those too stupid to do something else, and those who are supplementing their income via criminal activity.

        • pompompom on 02/06/2022 - 15:24

          Seems like a very decent pay which is actually at the higher end of starting salaries. But here are a number of things which are true for most if not all professions.
          The number of degrees you have doesn't translate to how much you earn. (Esp in Australia)
          Alot of jobs are high pressure jobs and pay less than this.
          Most police officers are overpaid because there is a view that the work they do is highly risky. Not sure why you would compare your earnings to them tho as the work is not remotely similar.

          Now I can say a plumber who never went to uni, owns 3 investment properties and makes 5 times what I earn : should mean I should earn more. Heck everyone with a blue collar career should vs a tradie, but that's the world we live in.

      • GrueHunter on 01/06/2022 - 18:37

        Seriously, what 'the' (profanity) is 'wrong' with 'your' apostrophe 'key'

        • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 20:35

          It's called typing on a phone while working. Grammar Nazi

          • pais on 01/06/2022 - 20:36
            +2

            @Benoffie: Psst, (s)he wasn't talking to you :)

            OP has no idea what an apostrophe is for & should've paid more attention to his underpaid English teacher.

            • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 20:39

              @pais: Lol 👍 I'm too tired to have double checked! And have to reply on phone while working 🙄

      • [Deactivated] on 01/06/2022 - 22:57
        +1

        Er no, a doctor in emergency doing 12 hour night shifts works in crap conditions. He could get paid 130k a year, which by your definition is good pay but crap conditions. Wrong. It's both, and it's the crap conditions that make the pay crap, so what do you do? You increase the pay so that it compensates for the crap conditions so people actually do the job.

      • belongsinforums on 01/06/2022 - 23:10

        in the US and NZ they get paid half of what we do

    • lilyesp on 01/06/2022 - 20:15

      So you go on clubs/camps/excursions every day?
      But yes there are dedicated ones..and ones that are not

      • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 20:38
        +4

        Clubs - at least one a week, if not two
        Camps - at least one a year, some teachers are on several a year
        Excursions - several a semester

        Everything out of hours should be paid. Everything that has increased risk should be paid.

        Why is it acceptable for a worker in any other field to get paid overtime, meal allowances, risk penalties etc but not teachers?

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