Are Teachers 'really' Underpaid

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  macrocephalic on 02/06/2022 - 09:51

  +1

  I think they're fairly paid, but they only get that by yelling, screaming, and taking action through their unions. If they stopped doing those things then they'd start going backwards. Teachers are a great example of why we should all join unions, they have decent pay, stability, and good options if they need to take time off for sickness or family.

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  R4 on 02/06/2022 - 09:58

  They are paid fairly for what they do

• 

  Sleeken on 02/06/2022 - 10:13

  +2

  It's easy to make a snap judgement without knowing the reality. My wife is a high school teacher and is passionate about her job.

  Most weeks she works 8:00 - 3:30 and then until 6pm from home. Much later on busy weeks. Also most weekends. We can't maintain much of a social life during the term. Aside from assessment writing, PD, admin, after school tutoring and marking there are human factors - catering to students with learning difficulties, many with mental health issues and then others who are unmotivated, some aggressive. Add to this a multitude of parental concerns about said students. This creates a highly stressful environment.

  The pay for most jobs is based on demand, work environment, qualification/skillset requirements, the capability of the individual and also hours. High performing teachers earn the same as poorly performing ones with the same years of experience, which is a shortcoming of pay structures for a number of service jobs.

  • 

    LFO on 02/06/2022 - 10:22

    My wife is a high school teacher

    Unfortunately that makes your judgment potentially very bias.

    I recall Canberra politicians arguing about how much they work and how little they are paid. Hilarious.

    Work at McDonalds in Drive Thru and learn what pressure is and what abuse is. In particular for a paltry "junior wage" of ~$5 per hour within a permanent stench of fried food permeating everything.

    • 

      Eeples on 02/06/2022 - 10:40

      Do you think he is lying when he says how many hours she typically works?

      • 

        infinite on 02/06/2022 - 12:36

        +2

        Yes.

        • 

          Sleeken on 02/06/2022 - 13:18

          +1

          @infinite: Not all teachers would work these hours however many more than you might imagine do. I'd encourage you to talk to people in the industry if you think I'm lying

    • 

      Sleeken on 02/06/2022 - 13:17

      +1

      Yes potentially, however it also gives me exposure to the system, which I believe many commentators are lacking. I wouldn't advocate for higher pay but for a change in the workload.

      I have worked hospitality jobs in my time thank you and know what it's like to be on the receiving end of abuse and be under stress.

• 

  LFO on 02/06/2022 - 10:16

  Lets count how many negs I get for this:

  For the amount of work they do and the conditions of work, teachers are OVERPAID.

  In particular when considering their knowledge and ability. NOT how many titles and certificates and degrees accumulated, but real life practical skills, level of commitment and perseverance with difficult students.

  • 

    wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 09:10

    +1

    I'm not going to upvote you nor down vote you because your comment makes no sense and presents no evidence to back up whatever it is you're trying to say.

    • 

      LFO on 06/06/2022 - 10:26

      -1

      Just like yours.

      Priceless.

      • 

        Orion au on 06/06/2022 - 10:31

        No he's right. I was thinking that the other day when I saw it but couldn't be bothered to point it out. Your comment didn't make sense.

        Wombat81's comment did make sense.

        Given that context, your retort is even worse than the original comment.

        • 

          LFO on 06/06/2022 - 19:43

          @Orion au: Interesting … same person with two Ozbargain pseudonymous.

          Nobody would have guessed …

• 

  pygar on 02/06/2022 - 10:23

  +1

  Teachers are institutionalised. They have given up their individual bargaining for collective bargaining. Teaching will always be a "Middle of the Middle Class" job because of this.

  Does every teacher deserve more money? Obviously not. Do some teachers deserve more money? Absolutely. There is no mechanism to give variable pay to better teachers.

  I know many teachers, and have lived with a few.

  Teaching is also a very secure job, short of misconduct, it's a job for life. The job is repetitive and after a while they build up a portfolio that they modify when required.

  It's in their interest to exaggerate the amount of work they put in. The teacher who say they are working 50hrs+ a week are either lying, working way harder then required or are just too dumb to organise properly.

  The reason people don't want to become teachers is not because of money, it's because the job is entirely predictable - there is no chance of making more then what is agreed on and you will do the same thing forever.

  • 

    Trying2SaveABuck on 02/06/2022 - 10:33

    Experienced teachers are in the top 10% of earners in Australia i would say that isn't 'middle' of the road

    • 

      pais on 02/06/2022 - 10:58

      The top decile in 2022 would be ~140k+.

      Even leading teachers - who are less teacher and more manager - don't earn this in Victoria. Where is this happening? Or are you expanding the definition of "teacher" to deputies?

      • 

        pygar on 02/06/2022 - 11:07

        Teachers are paid in tiers:

        Band One (Graduate) $75,605
        Band 1.2 $79,504
        Band 1.3 $83,394
        Band two (Proficient) $87,295
        Band 2.2 $91,186
        Band 2.3 $95,083
        Band 2.4 $98,981
        Band 2.5 $102,881
        Band 2.6 $106,774
        Band Three (Highly Accomplished) $111,271

        The leap between bands is mostly determined by time in the job

        Some thought should be given to mean pay vs median pay and what is a better metric.

        • 

          pais on 02/06/2022 - 11:34

          @pygar: That's for NSW I'm assuming, which is not too dissimilar to Vic rates.

          None of those bands scratch the top decile, unless you were to become a school administrator/manager - deputy or principal.

          • 

            mskram on 02/06/2022 - 13:23

            @pais: NSW rates are:

            Band 1(Graduate) 73,737

            Band 2(Proficient) 88,935

            Band 2.1 96,531

            Band 2.2 100,336

            Band 2.3 109,978

            Band 3 (Highly Accomplished/Lead) 117,060

            • 

              pais on 03/06/2022 - 09:33

              @mskram: So now we've got salary range from at least three states that demonstrate OP's point is incorrect, great.

        • 

          mskram on 02/06/2022 - 13:18

          +1

          @pygar: Highly Accomplished also comes with the three year maintenance cycle and the associated fee each time (I think it's $700).

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  Eeples on 02/06/2022 - 10:37

  +3

  A more fair comparison would be to compare the remuneration of teachers with others that have at least one 4 year degree. (Not all workers).

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  2esc on 02/06/2022 - 10:48

  +1

  I think the work teachers do varies greatly from school to school. Our primary school during home schooling 1 zoom meeting for the week of 30 minutes nephews school daily zoom meetings of about 2 hours. Actually home schooling completed about 3 hours for the entire week no feedback about his work. We ended up signing him up to a couple online courses.

  • 

    Orion au on 04/06/2022 - 08:02

    +1

    Lockdowns weren't good examples of how schools/teaching operates. It really was a unique event for our generation. We haven't been trained for such an event - especially not in 2020. There was a lot of scrambling and learning going on. Some would've adapted better than others, both on an individual level and a schoolwide planning level.

    You also had different teachers with vastly different circumstances. For example, some teachers would have been young, single or older empty nesters who had all the time in the world to continue their job, whilst others may have been single parents with multiple kids at home who otherwise would've been at school/daycare themselves. Teachers are people too.

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  JuryWheel on 02/06/2022 - 11:00

  +1

  Not sure if this has already been raised, but what are peoples thoughts on primary vs secondary teachers and their pay - should it be the same?

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  2esc on 02/06/2022 - 11:01

  +2

  The only good thing from our point of view of covid lockdown is we found out where our children were behind in their education.

  Our fault though relying on the teachers reports and not checking ourselves. With online help they have both dramatically improved if it wasn't for the social interaction they would miss we would seriously consider home schooling.

  • 

    vasya on 02/06/2022 - 18:57

    What kind of online help are you using ? Thinking about something like that for my children.

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  xlimit on 02/06/2022 - 11:41

  -3

  Teachers are paid correctly. Most of my high school teachers just reused material they first made when they started teaching. They just photocopied these notes or just regurgitated from a published text book. The more diligent teachers just made sure we went through all of the material required by the syllabus but it was all still from some published text book. There was no 'planning'. Our exams were rehash of questions from past papers or textbooks. What deluded teacher thinks they're genius enough to create new mind-blowing exam questions?

  And what pressure??? Cops face getting assaulted on every shift, ambos need to revive or stop people from dying, politicians end up getting the public hate and ire of everyone no matter what they do. Whenever I did poorly in school I got blamed, not my teacher. If you drop out potential employers put that on you not your teachers.

  Primary school = nap time or whole day P.E for everyone + teacher
  Secondary school = class would chat about nonsense with the teacher or it would be reading out of a textbook until bell rang

  Teachers feel stressed within their own world. Just have them try another profession and they'll be enlightened as to what stress truly is. In saying that, having to restrain yourself from beating that misbehaving little shit can be quite the feat.

  • 

    wittyusername on 02/06/2022 - 11:47

    +3

    I've worked in construction, retail, mining, consulting and education. Without a doubt, by far, the hardest is education. I left education to go into the mining industry and the 12 hour days I did on site don't even compare to the 7 hours a day I spent rounding up little shits. I was at a low income school, so that definitely didn't help. I didn't even last 6 months.

    • 

      xlimit on 02/06/2022 - 11:57

      -2

      So education wasn't for you so you left, which served the students. From my high school experience, the teachers didn't care about educating us so they did the bare minimum which they still called 'teaching'. Apparently this calls for better pay across the board? If teachers were actually held accountable for students failing, getting poor grades, or dropping out then sure they deserve more money. But let's be honest, theres no accountability here. A kid fails school its on the kid and his/her parents. In comparison, a nurse accidentally gives the wrong medication and suddenly they're facing possible jail time.

      • 

        tempco on 02/06/2022 - 12:16

        +11

        Hahaha “from my high school experience”. I think I know exactly what kind of student you were: the kind that always blamed others when things didn’t go their way and probably had parents who reinforced that view.

        • 

          infinite on 02/06/2022 - 12:43

          -2

          @tempco: Australian teachers are among the poorest performing educators in all education systems across the entirety of first and second world countries. By just about every single last possible metric, study and evaluation. Being held accountable in any basic capacity is literally what has been the #1 fight teachers unions have been waging for almost two decades now. There's not even remotely a debate to be had about how unbelievably bad they have failed our current crop of graduated students, then the soon-to-be graduating primary and high school kids.

          • 

            tempco on 02/06/2022 - 12:47

            +1

            @infinite: Sure, I get that and there are definitely ways to improve teaching in general. But piling on more busy work is not the solution and is where we are heading. Australian teachers are ranked in the top 5 when it comes to the number of extra hours worked (Japan, UK, NZ are all up there). You can blame teachers as the scapegoat or fix the system.

        • 

          xlimit on 02/06/2022 - 13:29

          -2

          @tempco: You take that back!!! As my parents told my principal, all because I drew a WWIII battlefield on my trial exam paper does not mean I wasn't listening in class I was just being abstract!!!

          As true as it was that I did draw animals and fighter jets during my exams what you've said again highlights the non-existent accountability for teachers. The blame IS on ME (regardless of what degree of teaching I actually received) and this has always been the reality. This allows many teachers to adopt a non-committal approach towards a student's education without any consequences. If a teacher doesn't like a student, simply doesn't care or doesn't see the student being worth their time they can simply stop teaching the kid. Could a doctor ever refuse to treat you to the best of their ability because you've constantly been difficult?

          Accountability is everything. As it stands, the pay is right for teachers as a collective. There are more lazy teachers than good ones. What should happen is bonuses should be allocated (on top of base salary) in proportion to the average mark of their class. That would create accountability for sure and get funds allocated to the right people.

          • 

            tempco on 02/06/2022 - 14:15

            +4

            @xlimit: Your suggestions have been well researched and aren’t anything novel. The results of the countless research papers on student outcomes and teacher impact/efficacy is that around 1/3 of student achievement is determined by what happens at school, and 2/3 on what happens outside of school. Teacher efficacy roughly makes up 1/4 or less of total impact on teaching. If you reward higher averages with bonuses, teachers in high socioeconomic areas will be paid more despite having to work less. This is all really outdated convos that have been wrapped up decade ago in educational research.

            Effective teaching mainly revolves around making learning explicit, giving powerful feedback as soon as possible and developing a whole-school culture that’s collaborative and focused. The first is within teacher’s power. The next two is impossible if teachers are overburden with BS work. So, the power to change things isn’t in teachers’ hands, but in the hands of the Department and admin. Again, we know the solution and we’ve known for a long time. As with many things, political and social factors stop solutions from being implemented, and teachers and students suffer as a result.

            And in terms of doctors, absolutely. If you take up more time than allocated (e.g. ~20 min), they’ll wrap up the appointment and move you on. If you’re abusive, you get blacklisted and will be removed from the practice. In public schools the number of hoops you need to jump through to remove a student is ridiculous, even if the student has actually harmed or threatened a teacher.

          • 

            Orion au on 02/06/2022 - 17:54

            @xlimit: You make a lot of claims without any evidence. You're very black and white in your stances, when it's a subject that is much more nuanced.

            Your point about teachers choosing to not teach students is pretty ludicrous. If that were to happen, there's processes in place to combat/address it.

            You also make the claim there's 'more lazy teachers than good ones'. Where are you getting this? From your infinite wisdom and experience?

      • 

        greatlamp on 04/06/2022 - 09:31

        The problem is how do you hold a teacher accountable?

        The teachers don't choose the students. Two or three ratbag kids will ruin a class. Two or three 'high needs' kids will take up all your time.

        I am all for holding teachers accountable when teachers are allowed to throw students out of the class at their discretion

    • 

      trapper on 02/06/2022 - 16:32

      -1

      I left education to go into the mining industry and the 12 hour days I did on site don't even compare to the 7 hours a day I spent rounding up little shits.

      Not every job is going to suit every person though.

      Of course not everyone likes dealing with kids, if that's you then teaching is not your gig.

      • 

        tempco on 02/06/2022 - 16:41

        +1

        That argument doesn’t wash as the mining industry doesn’t usually have issues securing workers but there’s serious shortage in teachers (the Department of Education in multiple states are having to send head office staff with any teaching qualifications to fill classrooms across the country). That means there are structural issues in teaching that are probably going to get worse before they get better.

        • 

          trapper on 02/06/2022 - 17:21

          @tempco: The mining industry would definitely have issues securing workers if it didn't pay so well.

          Which is precisely why it pays so well.

          • 

            tempco on 02/06/2022 - 19:13

            @trapper: So then it follows that teachers should be paid more as there’s a nationwide shortage? E.g. there aren’t enough maths teachers and then people wonder why our national results suck.

            • 

              trapper on 02/06/2022 - 19:23

              @tempco: If they can't get a math teacher at a particular school, then yes I agree they should offer more for that specific vacancy.

              • 

                tempco on 02/06/2022 - 20:30

                @trapper: EBAs apply to all teachers and maths is where the shortage is probably the worst, not the only area.

                • 

                  trapper on 02/06/2022 - 21:05

                  +1

                  @tempco: Not a great system then is it?

                  • 

                    tempco on 03/06/2022 - 00:46

                    @trapper: Which is what I said in my first reply to you… structural issues need to be addressed for anything to change.

                    • 

                      trapper on 03/06/2022 - 09:50

                      @tempco: Agreed. They should pay more for specific roles where there is a shortage. Can't have a school without a math teacher can we.

                      But also don't want to attract people who hate dealing with kids into the industry either I guess.

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  Drakesy on 02/06/2022 - 11:53

  Teachers are paid in line with the difficulty of degree/return to government.

  Yes it is a taxing job and yes the low pay may be responsible for our dwindling education standards but let's be honest its not the hardest of qualifications and you get a tonne of holidays per year so I think its fair, 8 weeks more to be exact
  Which if you break it down is another $10k of pay
  All of a sudden its not so shabby

  • 

    infinite on 02/06/2022 - 12:44

    +1

    That and the base pay they earn already puts them inside the top 10% of Australian earners, private or public.

  • 

    boostpak on 02/06/2022 - 16:37

    low pay?

    • 

      Drakesy on 02/06/2022 - 18:18

      Sorry meant to say "low pay"
      I think they're paid what they should be

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  Scantu on 02/06/2022 - 12:20

  -1

  Biggest bunch of whingers out. Surprise - everyone works hard at their job!

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  fullmetal on 02/06/2022 - 12:47

  I think we should look at it proportionally. The wealth gap is the real issue here as you can see from the graph OP provided, the top percentile is earning alot alot more. This is no different to aristocracy times.

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  Harold Halfprice on 02/06/2022 - 13:14

  +4

  I think they're paid fairly for the level of effort it takes to become one. Anyone making over 100k is more than likely putting in some degree of overtime, but almost no one else is making 100k and getting 12weeks of paid leave a year.

  The pay however isn't enough to attract the brightest minds to become teachers, and for that reason I think they should be paid more to attract better teachers.

  • 

    [Deactivated] on 03/06/2022 - 12:12

    4 years? Most degrees take 3 years and it's bloody hard trying to do a maths degree while doing placement for 3 weeks.

    • 

      Harold Halfprice on 03/06/2022 - 15:03

      Most degrees might be 3, but most degrees have an average wage less than a teacher. Teachers are basically guaranteed to get a decent salary.

      Engineering is 4 years, with a lot of courses requiring a minimum 3 month full time placement.

      Higher entry requirements, much harder content - graduate pay is less, unpaid overtime is standard and while an engineer's potential career growth/pay isn't as limited as a teacher's (e.g. pathways to management, project/product management, sales etc), most established engineers employed as engineers are probably sitting at the 100-120k mark unless working in remote areas or specialist roles (and there's some on far less). Software engineers probably being the only exception here.

      ATO has Engineering Managers averaging just under 160k, which isn't too much more than an entry level principal.

      • 

        [Deactivated] on 03/06/2022 - 15:44

        Computer science, software engineering, IT, accounting, nursing are ones I can think of. Granted there are exceptions and not everyone is on 6 figures, but the ceiling cap is much, much higher than teaching and from my friends, I've found progression to be faster.

        Computer science: 45k intern last year of uni, 85k graduate, 120k, 150k and now is ??? But I wouldn't imagine lower.

        Nursing, my cousins a nurse and while their 'base' seems quite average, they get a lot of bonuses and perks like salary packaging including some of their pay and mortgage.

        I've got a friend in accounting, he's only on 70k as a grad but he says how much graduate IT people are getting are insane, some start on 6 figures.

        As a teacher you need 3+ months placement too. Look, I'll say the same thing I say everytime. Whether they are underpaid or overpaid is a subjective matter and depends on how much that person not only values education, but how important they think it is to attract the best teachers. Honestly, if traffic controllers make $35 an hour with no hecs or opportunity cost along with what you could make if you do a night or weekend shift, why would you become a teacher?

        • 

          Mr Haj on 03/06/2022 - 16:32

          @[Deactivated]:

          I've got a friend in accounting, he's only on 70k as a grad but he says how much graduate IT people are getting are insane, some start on 6 figures.

          I've heard accounting is cut throat. You might be earning good money but you have to work ridiculous hours. You effectively have no life outside of your job. They aren't taking 12 weeks off every year.

          • 

            [Deactivated] on 03/06/2022 - 17:39

            @Mr Haj: Depends who you ask I guess, everyone I know (big 4) are just doing standard hours.

• 

  Baghern on 02/06/2022 - 13:26

  The whole 90th percentile thing is rubbish and lazy Journalist type research

  It includes too many parameters, that you would deselect if you could

  ie you wouldn't include 2nd wage earners who work 3-5 days, at a low paying job just to help out

  You wouldn't include students etc, might exclude jobs like miners.

  what you try to define is the same group, ie career full time earners

  Its like when people try to talk about median wage, being so low, ignoring the fact that most people earning around or below median wage aren't in the above category
  Minimum wage is around 40k per year, the median is 50k. Most people in a career are not earning that low. its mostly students or young people entering the work force, transient type workers

  To compare a teacher $100-$120k, you would want to compare it against other careers, with the equivalent experience.

  As a male, when I look at the ABS. I don't compare against Australia full time average income, I compare against Average full time male income, then I compare it against my industry.

  • 

    Trying2SaveABuck on 02/06/2022 - 13:37

    +2

    100k is still a fair chunk above all those 'parameters' you have discussed.

    the average full time income is around 92k a year…..keep in mind the average is skewed heavily upward due to a small number of ULTRA high income earners making billions.

    • 

      Baghern on 02/06/2022 - 13:42

      fair chuck? how do you know that, you don't its not calculated

      And what amount is this skewed part?

      100k… is no where near 90% percentile though

      • 

        Trying2SaveABuck on 02/06/2022 - 13:46

        +1

        i think it is 100k is 80th percentile in fairness around 130k is 90th

        The top 1% of earners in Australia earn more then the bottom 50% so i dare say it is skewed….. but even with the skew Teachers are still doing 'alright' - ill add this there are around ~100,000 people in the top 1 % they are earning >350kpa

        im not saying they are over-paid but personally think they are fairly remunerated, the bar to become a teacher isnt 'very high' so to demand salaries comparable to Doctors Lawyers etc i just dont see it esp considering there working year is only 40 weeks long.

        You are welcome to 'fact' check it here

        https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-20/are-you-middle-income…

        • 

          Baghern on 02/06/2022 - 13:58

          @Trying2SaveABuck: Try looking at the ABS yourself.

          These articles are purposely dumbed down.

          The only good these types of articles do, is start the discussion

          You wouldn't compare a 25year old starting out, to a 35year old at the peak of their career. That's a substantial difference.

          its like the 15% wage gape between men and women… its a FACT

          Why aren't we all jumping up and down, most of us know we still live in a world where women are the primary caregiver, we know that this and other social issues are why there is such a large pay gap

          • 

            Trying2SaveABuck on 02/06/2022 - 15:00

            +1

            @Baghern:

            its like the 15% wage gape between men and women… its a FACT

            im not refuting that

            You wouldn't compare a 25year old starting out, to a 35year old at the peak of their career. That's a substantial difference.

            Of course but we are talking about 'averages' and wages most people will never hit 100k in there life time some will hit it in their 1st job or very early in their career. you got to look at the whole pie.

        • 

          mskram on 02/06/2022 - 14:38

          +1

          @Trying2SaveABuck: It is interesting comparing taxable income statistics from the same year.

          The ABC has a searchable list. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-13/income-averages-for-d…

          It looks like the highest paid principals have a median of 125, which puts them at 89th percentile.

          The highest paid teacher category has a median of ~80k which puts them at 68th percentile.

          I may have missed something, please check my facts.

          • 

            [Deactivated] on 03/06/2022 - 22:39

            +1

            @mskram: I am going to say that it seems likely that there are a large number of part time teachers, the median income on that list is very close to what a qld teacher starts on. If you want meaningful data you need to look at full time only.

            • 

              mskram on 05/06/2022 - 21:16

              @[Deactivated]: Wouldn't that apply to all jobs on that list? Or are we only comparing full-time teachers against part-time and full-time employees from other fields?

              • 

                [Deactivated] on 05/06/2022 - 23:57

                @mskram: All I can say is that I've never worked with a part time engineer before. Different industries would have differing rates of contract work vs full time vs part time and different industries have different standards on how they allow their workers to be flexible. When comparing across industries it seems a good idea to filter against full time vs part time. The abs does it in other data sets.

• 

  Hangryuman on 02/06/2022 - 13:39

  +10

  an a retired ex-teacher I would say if I only worked the specified work hours, the pay rate was fine.

  if I set/prepared/marked every goddam daily piece of work done by every student, requiring staying up to 1030pm every night of the week, the pay rate was abysmal

  so after a few years of handing back their work to students with my carefully annotated comments and suggestions for improvement, only to see them glance only at the number on the front, then glance to either side to see what mark their peers got, then toss it aside, I figured that was a WOFTAM - and stopped.

  While execs seeking bonuses for their ideas for improvement continue to demand more paperwork, more tracking, more accountability, more time-wasting form filling - I chose to ignore that and just focus on the students in class

  students loved it - execs didn't care or notice I wasn't doing all the BS they thought was a great idea - and job done thank you very much.

  so my tip for teachers - skip the BS paperwork - focus on the students in class - and they'll love you for it.

• 

  cenakhoa on 02/06/2022 - 13:49

  +1

  -Low paid salary will attract teachers capable of information transferring or knowledge delivery
  -High paid salary will attract teachers capable of delivering inspirations, interpersonal skill development, and much more ambiguous subjects that matter in education like language, philosophy, psychology etc that guided students toward their Zone of proximal development where they are capable of learning by their own.
  -At the moment, those who got the potential chose different industries to work because the salary is not high enough

  • 

    Trying2SaveABuck on 02/06/2022 - 13:50

    Ill fact check you here our teachers are the highest paid in the world and our education system ranks 3rd last out of the 41 EU/OECD nations.

    highest paid teachers by the international rankings have us at 38th…. out of 41….

    • 

      Daabido on 02/06/2022 - 21:04

      +2

      You are completely wrong on wages and it depends how you "rank" education systems. Forfty percent of people know that.

    • 

      lunartemis on 03/06/2022 - 06:40

      +2

      Australia may have the highest salaries but also have one of the highest cost of living

• 

  FlyingMiffy on 02/06/2022 - 13:50

  +3

  Depends on what value you place on their contribution to society. Not many professions can say that they are developing the folks who will one day decide on our future. How much should you be paid to do a thankless job?

• 

  idonotknowwhy on 02/06/2022 - 14:11

  Depends on the kind of teacher doesn't it.
  Kinder teachers are under paid.

• 

  lookingforTV on 02/06/2022 - 14:39

  +6

  I am a current teacher in QLD. This is my personal opinion of the profession. Some teachers are very underpaid, some teachers are fairly paid and some are overly paid. As a teacher, how much work you put in entirely depends on your passion. As a lazy teacher, you can actually get away with doing bare minimum (9-3:30pm) and spend your entire lesson prep time on your phone. This is especially the case when you are already a permanent. But, as a passionate teacher, you can put extra hours and hours and still not feel 'enough'.

  The biggest problem in my opinion is that the system does not have an appropriate reward system. Your pay band goes up each year no matter whether you do a good job or a bad job. If you want to get paid higher and faster, only option available in the system is to either take a managerial role (HoD, Deputy) or jump through hoops to be come Highly Accomplished Teacher or Lead Teacher.

  If you become a HoD, your job description fundamentally changes, you don't teach as much so this is not for people who are in it to teach kids. Plus the pain of becoming a middle manager where pressures are applied from both sides. Jumping through the hoops to become HAT or LT means you have to collect data and evidences to prove that you are, which arguably does not improve your teaching/classroom practices.

  Also, once you reach the highest teaching band ($117k) - the pay difference between HoD/HAT/LT is so minimal and there are no incentives to bust your ass to get those titles.

  Unfortunately, I don't have the solution. It's just the nature of the job where one's performances cannot be easily quantified. I do it because I love teaching kids but I have been very salty towards some of my colleagues because of how much work they put in. I have seen beginning teachers burning out and leaving the job, and their reason was never pay.

  • 

    Trying2SaveABuck on 02/06/2022 - 14:56

    +3

    I will echo what you are saying in most public job there is a large range of good and lazy af workers

    the biggest issue with collective bargaining if it rewards lazy people and punishes hard workers

  • 

    havabeer on 02/06/2022 - 15:23

    What about newer teachers? It seems the level required to get your Education degree is significantly higher than it used to be, in the last 2-3 years at least.

    • 

      lookingforTV on 02/06/2022 - 15:28

      The duration of Bachelor of Education is 4 years and I believe that has always been the way. The recent changes in the last 2-3 years you talk of may be related to Graduate Diploma of Teaching which was 1 year course. Nowadays, I believe you have to do Masters which goes for 1.5-2 years. But, the beginning salary for teacher is competitve IMO at $75k.

      • 

        Longtimescroller on 02/06/2022 - 17:49

        +3

        The starting pay is very competitive, the Cap at around 100k (at which you will spend most of your career) is however far less competitive when compared to other in demand professions which require a degree.

• 

  burns13 on 02/06/2022 - 14:49

  +2

  If they're paid so much then explain why the public sector is bleeding workers at the moment

  • 

    infinite on 02/06/2022 - 22:19

    -3

    Because there is a ridiculous oversupply of under-performing and under-skilled public sector employees, who have for far too long been milking the tax payer for no benefit at all. That's come about because for over a decade now, uncontrolled HR practices have seen people recruited, hired and advanced internally due to the colour of their skin and political opinions, instead of capability to do their actual job.

• 

  havabeer on 02/06/2022 - 15:19

  +2

  I work in public sector education (non-teaching). My wife works in private (teaching). The amount of out of hours work she has done is insane.
  Public sector don't have the same contractual requirement for extracurricular stuff either, so there is a fairly big workload difference plus a large difference is expectations.

  • 

    fozzie on 02/06/2022 - 17:39

    +1

    I disagree . I worked in private Catholic and now public. It’s all pretty much the same, but the main difference is that in private there’s a meeting once a week up to around 5.30pm but they get two extra weeks holidays. This is in NSW.

    • 

      lunartemis on 03/06/2022 - 06:49

      +2

      Not in Victoria. I have worked in both government and private and there is a lot more extra hours spent on meetings at private (3 after school meetings and 2 morning briefings compared to 2 after school, longer school days, expectations to attend certain amount of out of school hours activities). All these and private school finishes 3 days earlier

• 

  kalithreaver on 02/06/2022 - 15:46

  +4

  as someone who works at a school and knows their pay ranges i dont think they are underpaid. what they are is over worked. what they need is less after school, weekend and holiday work. the amount of meetings they have each week after school is ridiculous. i think schools are just understaffed and so all the teachers have too much on their plates to handle.

  • 

    Longtimescroller on 02/06/2022 - 17:46

    +2

    Well said, most teachers including myself are more concerned about the workload rather than pay.

• 

  U4333439 on 02/06/2022 - 16:29

  +1

  My initial feelings were that they were under paid. If your numbers are accurate though as seen to be supported through the comments, I now feel that they are fairly paid. Sounds like a similar transition to yourself. How much do they want?

• 

  chris666 on 02/06/2022 - 17:10

  +3

  Wife has been leaving 6am every morning getting home 6pm 20min drive to and from work definitely underpaid

  • 

    infinite on 02/06/2022 - 22:21

    +1

    What's she doing with all her spare time in between leaving home and coming back? I'd look into that if I were you.

    • 

      chris666 on 03/06/2022 - 10:31

      Umm her work load at work…

  • 

    BrettSh on 07/06/2022 - 11:39

    Yeah, my wife works similar hours.

• 

  OzHunterNSW on 02/06/2022 - 17:35

  No… its a load of rubbish. I taught for many years. Look at the starting time, the close of the day, the much break, sports day, swimming day, it just just not stop with free time

  • 

    Longtimescroller on 02/06/2022 - 17:44

    +4

    I wonder how much teaching went on in your classroom…

  • 

    Daabido on 02/06/2022 - 21:08

    C-

    Please work on your everything.

• 

  dontboopthesnoot on 02/06/2022 - 18:31

  yeah nah

• 

  drprox on 02/06/2022 - 19:10

  Hrmmm this is an interesting one. My 10 cents is if we paid them more again we would get a better calibre of teacher.
  $120k is achievable in Australia within a few years (and certainly well prior to 10 years) of joining the workforce with plenty of examples such as joining a union and swinging a hammer, digging holes or a number of white collar professions including banking, accounting, engineering or consulting and most certainly tech fields.

• 

  oblivianz on 02/06/2022 - 19:17

  +4

  Been in the industry for 7 years, if I had a time machine, I would definitely choose a different path. All teachers go into the industry with great intentions of providing quality education for future generations. Little do people realise that more than half the work is not about teaching, instead its about administrative work to prevent litigation.

• 

  Hoborg on 02/06/2022 - 19:46

  +4

  The problem is not overpayment. It's about way too much admin crap, and inability to remove distractions in the class.

  If you see the overhead a teacher has (I'm more familiar with highschool), you'd quickly back off from saying 'they work 6 hours a day'

  Remove the stupid amounts of admin, let them actually teach. You might stop them leaving the profession…

  • 

    Orion au on 04/06/2022 - 08:06

    +1

    Many like to think they have a valid opinion on this topic, despite an overwhelming amount of ignorance on it.

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