Moderators, Comments and Censorship. I've had enough.

Lblitz on 12/05/2012 - 17:06

An anonymous moderator recently gutted the comments in this post:

Black Lace Halter Mesh Teddy Lingerie for $5.99 USD + Free Shipping
http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/69889

The moderator (quite cleverly) deleted a slew of comments, and then listed the removed posts as "off topic". For some reason, many comments of the same style are still present in the thread. Honestly, how much more off-topic could these comments be??

mr_vino89 21 hours 44 min ago
only clicked on the link because of the hot model…. absolute stunner!

giggles 17 hours 52 min ago
My mum looks great in a Black Lace Halter Mesh Teddy Lingerie for only $5.99

Josh81 1 hour 59 min ago
$1 for each second it stays on her. :]

All of these comments are still in the thread - obviously these comments are suitably "on-topic" and the moderator didn't need to delete them.

I don't find this acceptable. I'm not going to continue to post on this site if moderators can simply delete perfectly reasonable comments wholesale. Of course, if a comment is genuinely offensive or needlessly unrelated, then fine. But the deleted comments were innocuous. This reeks of a moderator with an axe to grind and wielding their power because their precious sensibilities were being challenged.

This is a community site. If you're going to allow posts for things like lingerie, then you're going to have to accept that people are going to comment along those lines.

I've been a member here for over three years. I visit and comment every day. A couple of my posts have even won the weekly prize. One of my comments is in the hall of fame. I genuinely care about how this place is going. But I'm not going to hang around while some anonymous moderator on a power trip censors comments for no reason. Why have comments at all????

Site Discussion

closed Comments

  • Car-la-la on 12/05/2012 - 17:13
    +8

    Well done for speaking up young chap!!

  • mirovich on 12/05/2012 - 17:42

    Yeah I don't like it either, its like Japanese pr0n :P

  • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 17:49

    I was the sole moderator acting on that thread and most of the comments are off-topic. This is a bargain site. Comments that have nothing to do with the topic are well…off-topic. If there are comments that you think are off-topic, use the report button.

  • Miami Mall Alien on 12/05/2012 - 17:49
    +16

    Agreed, been a member for a 3 and a half years and the mods are getting mighty hyper-sensitive, not just regarding potentially "inappropriate" commenting but against almost anyone who voices a hint of criticism against a product or who goes against the established opinion regarding a certain bargain.

  • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 17:51

    Again, if you want to pick out a certain comment as an example, I'm happy to discuss why it is off-topic.

    Commenting guidelines

    EDIT: Keep in mind, I have been out the whole day and need to catch up with the thread

    • blitz on 13/05/2012 - 09:18
      +1

      Gee thanks Neil, pick a comment that you've deleted? From memory? How magnanimous of you. Do you realise that we don't know what was deleted? Do you get that? How can we discuss what we don't know is missing?

      Next, how is this comment on topic?

      mr_vino89 on 11/05/2012 - 19:09
      only clicked on the link because of the hot model…. absolute stunner!

      What rule did you use (by yourself I might add) to determine what is on topic and what is not?

      • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 13:25

        blitz, you started the thread, so I assumed you had examples you'd like to point out so we can discuss. As I said, the moderators are just enforcing the community guidelines, the same as we have done for the past few years.

        So how can we tell something is off-topic or on-topic? Well, on-topic usually has something to do with the product, competitors, experience with the product or category, what they plan to do with it, gift it etc. Generally, it's up to a judgement but anything that's on the border is left published. Example, a deal on an iOS app, and a user talks about how he likes Gouda cheese. That's obviously off-topic.

        Obviously, most of these comments are in jest but inter
        OK, so I'll give ya a few randomly selected examples of on-topic and off-topic from the thread:

        ontopic: How would one of these look on an XXXL lady? - Asking about how to use the product.

        offtopic: The deal has got the word "breast" in it ! Off-topic. Nothing to do with the deal.

        offtopic: who's with me just commenting with innuendos but not buying? :D Encouraging off-topic comments.

        grey area: only clicked on the link because of the hot model…. absolute stunner! Being lenient as possibly lingerie looking good on the model may equate to lingerie looking good on customer.

        on-topic: just in time for mother's day Going to get product for Mother's day

        off-topic: How much for the model? Off-topic, sexualizing the model in picture.

        That's just 6 randomly selected comments. Discuss.

  • ozb-442 on 12/05/2012 - 17:59
    +6

    This is a community site. If you're going to allow posts for things like lingerie, then you're going to have to accept that people are going to comment along those lines.

    Completely agree, and take this thread for example, how come all these comments should be removed? I think OzBargain should def allow for threads like this, simply because they are hilarious and it helps form the OzB community.

    http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/55202

    Part of the reason that i browse OzBargain is for the humour.

    Agreed, been a member for a 3 and a half years and the mods are getting mighty hyper-sensitive, not just regarding potentially "inappropriate" commenting but against almost anyone who voices a hint of criticism against a product or who goes against the established opinion regarding a certain bargain.

    ^Agreed.

    • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 18:07

      how come all these comments should be removed?

      I acted on the community guidelines regarding off-topic comments.

      Some of the comments were amusing. There are a lot of things I find amusing but are not applicable to a bargain site. Zgeek or Reddit would be a more suitable place for these comments/threads. PM me for more links.

  • ozb-442 on 12/05/2012 - 18:10
    +7

    Some of the comments were amusing. There are a lot of things I find amusing but are not applicable to a bargain site

    So? 99% of posts on OzBargain have serious comments.. there are just a few that don't

    We should still allow a few humorous threads like these

    http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/55202

    and http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/69889

    EDIT: and this one http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/63339

    • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 18:26

      So? 99% of posts on OzBargain have serious comments

      You can have happy, sad, amusing, serious or whatever as long as it is on-topic.

      We should still allow a few humorous threads like these

      We work on reports from users and don't look at every comment as there are currently 860,000+ comments. If you feel there are comments that are off-topic, then report it. We get sometimes up to 100 reports a day.

      I understand what you are saying but you are basically stating keep any thread that xdefine finds amusing while throwing away any community standards. If you have some funny things to discuss, then feel free to post it in the off-topic forum (a forum for things off-topic).

      I'm happy to post every published and unpublished comment in that thread here so we can analyze why they stay vs. go. Give me a few hours and I can do this here.

  • [Deactivated] on 12/05/2012 - 18:21
    +14

    I've been an active member here almost 4 years now and I believe the overzealous moderation is killing the ozbargain spirit slowly but surely. There aren't always great bargains to be had here but there is usually a thread or two that we can drop into and enjoy a light hearted chat in. 'Use the forum' you might say, but the forum threads often get overlooked and are much slower at best. Of course some posts are in need of moderation but if it gets much tighter here you're going to kill off what sets this site apart from all the other bargain sites. I used to recommend this site to friends as a good place for a bargain and a laugh, how much longer can I do this I wonder?

    • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 18:28

      Can you give an example …Beaker? We are always happy to learn how to improve and discuss community guidelines.

  • scrimshaw on 12/05/2012 - 18:25
    +31

    I think there's a much simpler method, all we have to do is to implement a comment filter system where if the comment is flagged by the Mod as "off topic", the user can simply toggle "show off topic comments" to view it again. Any comments following it automatically become hidden as well.

    Kind of like how Ozbargain guests cannot view comments with negative votes, but once you login you can see em' again?

    • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 18:29

      Interesting idea. That would satisfy both users.

    • samfisher5986 on 12/05/2012 - 18:40
      +1

      I agree with this.

      We could also just have an off-topic checkbox so mods don't have to do any work.

      I know there are plenty of times I find something amusing about the product or title and its obvious the post will be offtopic.

    • andy19363 on 12/05/2012 - 18:46

      I agree…. Not with the original op, (the thought of having to wade through a mass of 15 yr olds posting 'phwooaar, she's fit' does not appeal).
      The option to sift through the crap is an attractive one indeed.

      An example being http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/69920 which contains all the usual tiresome 'anal' references.

      • StewBalls on 12/05/2012 - 22:45
        +6

        Yep, those guys just don't realise that all those 'anal' jokes is what rect-um! :p

    • King Tightarse on 13/05/2012 - 13:51

      Sounds good scrimshaw

    • quickling on 16/05/2012 - 23:21

      +1 to scrimshaw's idea.

      also add a vote for "ozbargain is getting overmoderated".

  • giggles on 12/05/2012 - 18:42
    +2

    Frankly I prefer fish. I really don't think this lamb fad will ever take.

    Off Topic?

    • snappy1234 on 12/05/2012 - 18:50

      Finally someone on topic…made me giggle ;)

  • Housecat on 12/05/2012 - 19:46
    +2

    OzB is turning lame with this moderation. I think the crowd has spoken Neil, return the "off-topic" post.

    • samfisher5986 on 12/05/2012 - 20:17
      +2

      The crowd has hardly spoken.

      Whenever a bargain goes over a page it really annoys me when people are posting off-topic posts.

      I definitly think something needs to be done in those situations so its easier to read through.

      • retiredfeline on 12/05/2012 - 20:37
        +3

        That's not as annoying as the bug where if you click on a link to comment not on page 1, it doesn't take you there.

  • ozb-442 on 12/05/2012 - 20:34

    I think this thread should definitely be more promoted, possibly even on the OzB homepage.

  • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 22:17

    We always have an open door to discuss issues. But what's the point of discussing when all my comments get voted down by those asking the questions.

    I don't think the crowd has spoken. Without disrespect, I think some (not all) of the users here are the usual loud group of "troublemakers" who don't like the moderating here.

    I think it's important for people who read this thread to know the records of those who don't like the moderation on this thread.

    For the record,
    1 user on this thread has been banned 4 times for trolling and attacking other users.
    1 user for spamming, sockpuppeting, and having a ghost account.

    I'm always welcome for discussion and if you want to talk about specific examples then we can do that. But to just say moderation here sucks (paraphrasing) is not helpful.

    I do think a show off-topic comments button is interesting. I'll put it up for discussion with Scott.

    • k on 12/05/2012 - 22:33

      1 user on this thread has been banned 4 times for trolling and attacking other users.

      Waves

      Also, when people post "Personal attack" comments, perhaps moderators should remove the attack/trolling part of the comment. The other content of the comment may be useful or RELEVANT. Many users including me get worked up with the sheer stupidity of some deals and comments hence the abuse. i.e. my last ban was for calling someone an idiot because he/she posted a deal for a Galaxy Note, when it was a Galaxy S2. I mean how could you not tell the difference?!

      • StewBalls on 12/05/2012 - 22:39
        +3

        Don't stress dude, I've been in the sin-bin more times than that. Usually it's for the same reason as you, informing idiots that they are idiots! Strangely, they don't appear to realise this for some obscure reason.

        You can still leech bargains, you can't share bargains even if you wanted to, and it's less stressful than the arguments; next time just sit back & enjoy the holiday, you can use the reserved seat with my name on it! :p

        • k on 12/05/2012 - 22:47
          +1

          Glad someone can relate. Thanks mate :)

      • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 22:42

        @k

        Actually, you weren't included on the list above. Sorry, forgot you posted.

        In your example, instead of calling someone an idiot you could hit the report button and one of the moderators can fix up the link which is what someone else in that thread did.

        I think the point of the thread here and the example above is when when you want change, then come up with solutions to this issue instead of attacking those who are just trying to help out (moderators, OP).

        • k on 12/05/2012 - 22:46

          I should of but that deal was a dupe anyway. It should've been deleted straight away.

        • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 22:53

          Ah yes, now I recall. Got report on your comment, then report on wrong link, then report on duplicate.

    • Miami Mall Alien on 13/05/2012 - 01:57
      +3

      Just at least give us the option to show "Off-topic" posts.

      Offensive, trolling, spamming or personal attack comments should be hidden I agree.

  • imaximax1 on 12/05/2012 - 22:18
    +1

    member here for over three years. I visit and comment every day

    864 comments

    Close but no cigar.

    Does anyone know where i can get cheap Cigars? Why are there never any Cigar related deals??????

    • StewBalls on 12/05/2012 - 22:31
      +1

      Coz cigars look like 'doodles', and a cigar in the hands of an evil man like Bill Clinton can be downright frisky! ;)

      • imaximax1 on 12/05/2012 - 22:32
        +1

        Alright then, my bad.

        Cheers for the reply StewBalls.

  • StewBalls on 12/05/2012 - 22:25
    +4

    I only get pissed off when a good gag gets deleted, off or on topic! :p

    • imaximax1 on 12/05/2012 - 22:27
      +2

      I agree, its not up the moderators to deem what is humorous.

      It's either all or nothing IMO (assuming non-offensive, and not a reference to any 'chan' site).

      • Macgyver on 13/05/2012 - 13:26
        +1

        This!

        Same as whirlpool.
        Sometimes theres a great thread or great comment and it will be deleted by the whirlpool fun police/biased police.

        • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 13:37

          Yes, its the GUWPCT!

  • sulmar on 12/05/2012 - 22:42
    +1

    Actually giggled and enjoyed the first time i read that deal (Black Lace Halter) because of the comments. Come back after a while only to see that most of the comments have been deleted =/

  • leonheart1 on 12/05/2012 - 22:51
    +1

    I personally don't think a bit of humor could hurt.
    Just so we'd be getting somewhere, could we get a vote started in this thread?

    • Moderatorneil on 12/05/2012 - 22:55

      You can only add voting to the first post. What did you want to vote on?

      Again, comments weren't removed because of humor.

      • leonheart1 on 12/05/2012 - 23:50
        +1

        Sorry, let me rephrase.

        I personally don't think a bit of off-topic humor could hurt.

        And the vote could be on whether the Commenting guidelines should be modified?

        Options could be something like: 1) that off-topic posts are to be deleted (like it is now), 2) remain, or 3) are marked off-topic so that only Ozbargain members can view them by clicking a button (as per scrimshaw's popular suggestion).

        • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 00:01

          Well, as I said before, I'll bring up the discussion with the moderator team as well as the developers. There may be technical or other issues that need to be discussed. At the moment, there is a checkbox at the top of each box that says show all hidden comments. We would have to make sure that this only applies to off-topic and not things that should never be unhidden such as SPAM, sockpuppeting, foul langauge, personal attacks, trolling, duplicate etc.

        • AntMan76 on 13/05/2012 - 12:06

          Why not just make it an 18+ classification? Therefore mods can mark it off-topic, 18+ or delete.

          They could be tagged as such and auto display based on age at registration, and/or an opt-out option via our settings.

  • m0nkeycheese on 12/05/2012 - 23:31
    +4

    Comment unpublished. (Off-Topic) :D

    Just notched up 4 years on OzB this month.. The humour keeps me coming back

  • Arcticfox on 13/05/2012 - 00:08
    +3

    Sorry, but I'm with Neil on this one.

    Too many bargains get weighed down with pure drivel about anything from lame sexual innuendo to why posters found lint in their bellybutton in the middle of a Samsung TV deal.

    If you want discussion about topics not related to the deal then come to the forums to post or create a thread over at whirlpool.

    Examples of posts that weren't deleted, even though they were clearly off-topic for many pages - check out the dick smith game on sale deal. 80% of the posts there were just from people crying about Nintendos and childlike abuse aimed at staff.

    Some of the posts above even look like they are daring mods to moderate them. Why? To prove a point of some kind no-doubt. Good work with that, well done.

    What ever the end result of all this is, I just hope I can still ferret out relevant information from posted deals.

  • King Tightarse on 13/05/2012 - 12:01
    +5

    What is this Soviet era Russia now?

    Ozbargain wouldn't be Ozbargain without the community spirit and laconic humor in the threads. It wouldn't be as big as it is now because it would be BORING. That means ,yes, it needs the freedom to drift left and right within the topic in the comments.
    One thing that is sure to piss off any group of people is inconsistent moderation. Most threads would be shredded if they moderated in the same style.

    I couldn't be bothered commenting or posting bargains in a dry boring, "just the facts" environment.
    Give the place back its natural style!

    • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 12:17

      I'm not sure how we've gone to Soviet era Russia based on moderating off-topic comments on 1 thread about discount lingerie. We've been doing the same thing since day 1. Many members here are from Whirlpool which has an even tighter off-topic comment policy so I'm not sure where this OMG off-topic comments are being removed attitude is occurring.

      • King Tightarse on 13/05/2012 - 13:08
        +6

        Neil, when I checked back on the thread and MOST of the light hearted comments had been moderator-deleted, that to me, is heavy handed censorship… rather like Soviet era Russia, yes an appropriate reference as as simile.
        I saw no warnings "keep it on track etc", nor was the thread remarkably different on comment style from any other.

        Just BANG, most of the comments gone without warning.

        IE heavy-handed censorship and inconsistency in moderation.
        Those comments were almost all harmless and the kind of chatter that keeps people coming back to Ozbargain. To kill if off without warning smacks of "killjoy".

        Also! You are the moderator from the thread being discussed so its kind of impossible for you to have a neutral point of view on this.

        • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 13:16

          I only caught onto the lingerie thread after the majority of comments were made which is why there was no warning. But yes, I probably should have put a warning as soon as I saw all the off-topic comments. Again, I did put a warning but it got voted down.

          King, I'm just explaining my actions of why comments were removed based on our community guidelines. I'll tell you what, I'll flag this thread to the other moderators and they can chime in if they wish.

          I'm preparing a comment above to go over some examples of on-topic and off-topic comments.

        • King Tightarse on 13/05/2012 - 13:27
          +2

          Well that sounds fair, Neil.
          Incidentally do you know why I checked the thread this morning?
          It was funny.
          I wanted to see what people had added to it and how my own attempt at a crack was doing. Some of the thread comments on Ozbargain are hilarious, and that is something people constantly refer to when speaking about this place. They love reading the comments. Its one of the "hooks" of Ozbargain and it's point of difference with similar sites. Most humor is "off topic".

          It would be a poor business decision to change it in policy or moderation style.

        • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 13:41

          @king

          It's not a change in policy or moderation. Same moderation/same policy as day 1 (or thereabouts). We mostly focus on SPAM, Sockpuppeting, fixing up listings, titles etc. which leaves little time for off-topic comments. It just happened that we got some reports on that thread. No change, no conspiracy. Not the humour police, Not a power trip, not compensating for anything.

        • dealman on 16/05/2012 - 16:56

          Some of the thread comments on Ozbargain are hilarious, and that is something people constantly refer to when speaking about this place. They love reading the comments. Its one of the "hooks" of Ozbargain and it's point of difference with similar sites. Most humor is "off topic".

          It would be a poor business decision to change it in policy or moderation style.

          That is so true, I love those off topic posts Maybe we should have a tag for deals :"humour" where all the lingerie and other pansy deals can go.

          I would love to browse the site just for the spontaneous humour.

    • King Tightarse on 13/05/2012 - 15:32
      +3

      All due respect, Neil but I don't see anyone wailing "conspiracy, power trip, nor not compensating for anything". "Humor police"… well, maybe.

      What seems to going on here is a change in application of the rules.
      The rules themselves may not have changed but the way this thread was heavily moderated with an "absolute" adherence to the on/off topic rule is perceivably different from the norm and that is what people are reacting to.

      I like scrimshaw's suggestion above.

  • Postulative on 13/05/2012 - 12:23
    +4

    Why on earth are people negging mod comments for answering their questions? That's not just "freedom of speech", it's "being a d***".

    Yes, I want to see a lot of the off-topic comments. I have been disappointed to see so many missing in a recent lingerie post. But I'm also aware that they may not be appropriate for a site that tries to be accessible to everyone including children and those who may be offended by "your mom…" style "humour".

    (And yes, I have occasionally commented in relation to that well-known tablet manufacturer).

    • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 13:00

      Exactly. Every time I try to answer I getted negged down. Seems those who are vocal in this thread have already made their decision. Well, that's fine. Off-topic comments are probably 10% of what we do. The rest is made up of removing spammers, dealing with companies that attempt to scam members, companies sockpuppeting on their deals, members attacking other members etc. You don't have to like us but keep in mind we volunteer around the clock trying to make this community a better place.

      • A Banana4scale on 17/05/2012 - 17:21

        and yo can actually see who negged you, so its not even anonymous.

  • parisienne on 13/05/2012 - 12:51
    -4

    It is when people like one or two of the pathetics posting here now,decide to judge,abuse,degrade and just plain show what personalities they in fact are,that threads spiral down into nasty rants and aggressive retorts.If THIS sort of behaviour is stamped out,with a "three strikes your,re out……FOR GOOD " policy,i believe that this could go a long way to stemming some of the online nastiness and bullying that occurs here…for ridiculous reasons.

  • King Tightarse on 13/05/2012 - 13:12

    Haha even my comment from this morning in the original thread saying it has been over-moderated was removed a few minutes ago as "pointless".

    Geesus loosen the reigns.

    • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 13:22

      It's off-topic. We created a topic here to discuss overmoderation and it's linked in the that thread. Cmon King.

  • ozb-442 on 13/05/2012 - 14:34
    +2

    We always have an open door to discuss issues. But what's the point of discussing when all my comments get voted down by those asking the questions.

    I don't think the crowd has spoken. Without disrespect, I think some (not all) of the users here are the usual loud group of "troublemakers" who don't like the moderating here.

    I have negged you, not out of disrespect for you, but because i disagreee with you and i feel giving you a negative will show you that I (and others) don't agree with what you are saying.

    I have responded to your comments as well, giving a reason for your negative.

    I feel I should be able to neg you if I disagree with you and have given good reason, but probably not other people that don't really contribute to comments and just neg people because they're a d*ck or positive people to make a point

    • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 14:46

      Thanks for explaining. Unfortunately, those who don't have show hidden comments clicked and non logged in users will not be shown comments that fall below the negative vote threshold including those who have responded to the negatively voted comments.

  • blitz on 13/05/2012 - 16:26
    +1

    Neil, you (the only moderator posting, the moderator responsible for deleting the comments, and the one deciding who is right and wrong) talk about comments being 'off topic'. Your idea of what constitutes 'on' and 'off' topic is woefully inconsistent. You also don't seem to be understanding what people are saying here.

    As an example, here are some comments in the top bargain at the moment (the Logitech G27 steering wheel at http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/69470). Are they on topic? No, they aren't:

    Suddo on 07/05/2012
    get a better job then

    frewer on 06/05/2012 - 18:03
    hi im not being troll, i just want a simple joystick has 2.0 usb port, can some1 give me a site in Australia ? there is couple on ebay but it took too long to ship here/ Thanks

    samfisher5986 on 06/05/2012 - 18:11
    Its usage.
    If you use it like a maniac with jets etc then its not going to last long you'll need a better quality joystick.

    Rumbaar on 07/05/2012 - 13:32
    Like I ask each time, any news on Harmony Link coming to Australia?

    They're all obviously off-topic! None of them are to do with the Logitech G27. They're not even to do with steering wheels! Delete them, Neil. Delete them or you are a hypocrite.

    Each one of your examples above is paper thin justification. Some are laughable:

    grey area: only clicked on the link because of the hot model…. absolute stunner!

    Being lenient as possibly lingerie looking good on the model may equate to lingerie looking good on customer.

    No, it's not a grey area, it's sexist. Of course it's sexist. How can you not see that???? In any case, it has nothing to do with the bargain!! It's to do with the model!!! And yet you leave it alone!!! And your crummy justification for leaving it - 'er it may look good on the customer', that's just rubbish.

    These ham-fisted justifications tell me that you have no idea what you're doing, deleting some posts and leaving others. You have no grounds to stand on. None, whatsoever.

    Scrimshaw's idea is a good one. Alternatively, a moderation system like Slashdot would also work. But I'm not interested in continuing this discussion with someone who holds all the power and refuses to see what's happening.

    Without disrespect, I think some (not all) of the users here are the usual loud group of "troublemakers" who don't like the moderating here.

    Oh, thank you, Neil. How lovely for a moderator to think that ordinary users are the troublemaker dregs of the community.

    • ozb-442 on 13/05/2012 - 16:57

      Haha, this shows mod's aren't always right.

      I gave a +ve vote because everything you've pointed out is pretty much accurate.

      EDIT: Crap accidentally negged. That was supposed to be a +ve though. Neg revoked but can't +ve :/

    • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 17:01

      blitz, you really need to take this less personal. I'm just adding facts to the discussion.

      OK, so let's get to your points.

      Re: The Logitech wheel deal.

      We primarily work on reports from the community. There are currently more than 869,000+ comments so we can't check every one. No one reported those. I'll have a look at those comments. Thanks for pointing it out. Feel free to use the report button in future.

      Re: grey area example.

      As I said, it was a grey area. But since you essentially reported it with justification for why it's an inappropriate comment, then I'll remove it. Thanks for your help. It's appreciated.

      These ham-fisted justifications tell me that you have no idea what you're doing, deleting some posts and leaving others. You have no grounds to stand on. None, whatsoever.

      I gave you my justifications. I don't see you responding to any of the justifications. If you feel they should be published or unpublished then let them be known.

      How lovely for a moderator to think that ordinary users are the troublemaker dregs of the community.

      I'm just stating facts. Some, not all have a history here of attacking users, spamming etc. So while some want to discuss community guidelines regarding off-topic comments, some just have an axe to grind. That was my point. And for the record, blitz, you are not one of them. I do believe you have a genuine issue which I'm here to discuss. I have pinged the other moderators to chime in here but as it's the weekend it may take a while. If it wasn't raining all day here in Melbourne I'd be out as well! Oh well.

      But I'm not interested in continuing this discussion with someone who holds all the power and refuses to see what's happening.

      I don't hold any power nor am I refusing to see your points. The power is in the community. Community guidelines are set based on community feedback and general forum etiquette. You've pointed out 1 example and I have unpublished it. Scrimshaw has made a great suggestion which I've pinged the other moderators and developers. Fair enough, have a shot at me but if you want change then come up with solutions.

    • jennkei on 18/05/2012 - 17:55

      How is it sexist? It could be a hot male model. ._.

      Late to the discussion and possibly-irrelevant, but..Guidelines as they currently are are pretty harsh, so the result will be correspondingly-harsh, I guess.

  • ozb-442 on 13/05/2012 - 17:08
    +1

    I don't hold any power nor am I refusing to see your points. The power is in the community. Community guidelines are set based on community feedback and general forum etiquette

    Yep, and to be totally honest I see alot of positives given from the community regarding not removing comments and moderation in general and a lot of neg's on your side. (just poiting out the facts, not trying to stir anything)

    EDIT: If community guidelines are based on community feedback, then something should be changed..

    • Moderatorneil on 13/05/2012 - 17:29

      That's right. The goal is to build a healthy community and we're happy to change guidelines to shape the community better. I'm not sure the views of those in this thread can be taken of how the whole community feels nor can I say the opposite. The users who have spoken all appear to be long term users. So I'd think it would be an interesting concept to have the option to view off-topic comments.

      Note: As blitz pointed out, some comments marked as off-topic probably need to be marked as inappropriate (sexist comments, personal attacks). Those comments wouldn't be shown.

  • m0nkeycheese on 13/05/2012 - 17:36
    +1

    Make Bargains not War :D

    This is getting lame..

  • samfisher5986 on 13/05/2012 - 18:04
    +1

    You could always make it like Slashdot.

    Every single comment can be marked with something, offtopic, troll, flamebait, redundant, as well as a bunch of positive things (which would be optional)

    I don't agree with the stupid way people are trying to make a point, but I do agree that having a 99% community run site would be the best if possible.

    If I post something offtopic, but its particularly helpful to people and nobody wants to vote me as off-topic, then it shouldn't be deleted, what would be the point?

    The mods are simply attempting to moderate the site on behalf of us.

    There are certain people on this site who make horrible suggestions to mods/rules and even make it appear to us that its what the community wants when its clearly not.

    Considering the circumstances the mods are doing a very good job, in my opinion asking them to do any better is impossible, this is why I think some of the power should be given to the community.

  • matt777 on 13/05/2012 - 19:32

    I cant be bothered reading all this thread but a sense of humor is awesome on any site.
    Unless the post is rude or derogatory let it be.
    Whirlpool has gone down the drain as Mods have got way to heavy handed and become there own nanny state.
    This is why OCAU thrives good balance between both worlds.

    Please use OCAU as an example
    Trust me OZBargain may be very popular but never take that for granted.
    Its become a great community with a greater sense of humor.

    Just use your common sense and remember life to short to worry about 100% satisfying everyone.

  • dirtybird on 14/05/2012 - 10:10
    +2

    If you are late noticing a posted deal it can be a pain in the arse sorting thru multiple pages looking for relevant comments.
    Comments that compliment the deal with further updates or personal experiences or a better alternative. Only an issue on multi page deals.

    Overall I have no major issues with the way the site is moderated. I dont think you will please everyone no matter what you do.
    In the end I'm here for the deals as I expect the majority are, not the chit chat. So long as the deals exist then I keep coming back, regardless of the moderation.

    A suggestion: (expansion of scrimshaws by the looks)
    Could the mods adjust an off topic post giving it a high negative count of -100 therefore making it "hidden" so if you are logged in you can still have the option to view them or not by unticking the show all hidden comments option?
    Then if the bulk of the community consider it post worthy they can positive vote it back into view with 100 votes or keep it hidden with negative votes.
    This doesnt take away your need to moderate the trolls, spam and personal attacks, just another option for some of those off topic posts that gives the community a bit of a say.

    And while we're here, http://www.ozbargain.com.au/ozbapi/comment/854443/ what was it I wrote that was deemed inappropriate?
    If I want to avoid making the same mistake I have nfi what was wrong.

    • samfisher5986 on 14/05/2012 - 10:49

      Your -100 vote thing seems very messy, especially if they plan to make negative votes mean anything.

      A karma system would be cool.

      • scrimshaw on 14/05/2012 - 11:20

        A karma system would be unproductive. Yes, some people here on Ozbargain are d-bags and trolls, but people here also have a tendency to vote based on personal feelings and vendettas.

        I note that Whirlpool has such a system but does it really affect how people conduct themselves on the board? Not really. It acts more like an entry pass to the lounge forum but that's really its only purpose.

        Anyway I think we're digressing, karma has nothing to do with off topic comments.

    • Moderatorneil on 14/05/2012 - 11:46

      @dirtybird, Regarding your comment, I don't know and won't hazard a guess. I didn't handle that issue. Best you post to the Talk with a Moderator forum and we can find out what the comment was.

      Regarding giving a high negative count, that may be the solution but that's something that Scott will have to decide (if it is decided that feature is wanted).

      Karma system has been on the cards for a while. I think it would be more extensive than Whirlpool as it would reward good users. We used to have a simple points system on the front page where it tallied points via +1 for a comment, +1 for a post, + amount of votes on your comment. I think members did enjoy trying to compete for being a great member.

      • samfisher5986 on 14/05/2012 - 12:39

        Whirlpool users are completely different to ozbargain users in terms of voting. On whirlpool if you correct a person wrong they will give you low aura, on ozbargain the same person will do it, but 5 people will give you positive aura for it giving you +4 karma.

        I rarely see someone with -3 or lower without a good reason.

        For example I've had 10 positives and 3 negs, it still gives me +7 karma.

        If the karma system was going to go through, it should be 3-4 votes minimum, this prevents the feature being abused by negging comments that nobody else will see.

    • Moderator[Deactivated] on 14/05/2012 - 18:53

      DB - I have reported your original comment. Hopefully the mod who edited it, will get back to you on what this was about. In the future you can always use the report button, to see if you can get a response. Although hopefully that wont be necessary

  • [Deactivated] on 14/05/2012 - 17:22
    +1

    S'pose I can see why… If they delete off topic posts, less will be posted - so less of their time is spent reading them.

  • Moderator[Deactivated] on 14/05/2012 - 18:45

    Wow Neil I have missed all the fun here.

    The common thread is that if we try to impose some sort of regulation we are over reacting and being dictatorial or abusing our power.

    And yes thats understandable when people dont always read the guidelines.

    Also people only see what they see. We get complaints about threads from a large audience, people who come here to read the deals and like everyone we all appreciate a little humour, we also do it ourselves.

    The point being is when a little humour then goes way off tangent, and yes when you are caught up in it, its funny and creative, but for someone else its distracting and when they have to wade through this to see points or get information that others are sharing on the subject its hard.

    And yes as Neil suggests a flag system to flag humour etc so others can effectively look for what they want in a post might work, but we dont have that now, and what about imbedded humour, a joke within a factual post, that others reply to. Its not going to be easy.

    We have to put up with a lot as mods, we get abused if we try to moderate. Now we are not gods, we make mistakes, we have to acknowledge that, as some of my friends above know. Some I have offended, and apologised to and others who have offended and apologised back, and some who have never accepted moderation and have even had their own vendetta's based on a belief we have over moderated.

    And as Mods we often discuss these issues within our own community. And when other mods tell each other that they maybe have over moderated, mods pull back. So we answer to the community and the mod team.

    And yep when a topic goes off beam we may miss one or two off topic posts, we sometimes hold back saying lets try and get it back on topic, without killing every off topic post, because we dont want to be seen to be too heavy handed, and if one mod is acting on a topic the others leave it to that one mod, so its not like all mods are ganging up. Also of late Neil has been here on his own so has been in the firing line. (Three of us took AirAsiaX Ozbargain trips - deals we found here like you do, not payola).

    So offer solutions and we will take them to the other mods and ultimately Scotty, and we'll try to refine the system. But just remember, for some a joke can go too far, and we as humans can't always have the divine skill to judge the exact point to get it completely right.

    BTW if you want to express displeasure please go ahead, but voting my post down only hides the comment so no one sees why. I am not saying dont be displeased but voting down has other impacts.

    • AntMan76 on 14/05/2012 - 19:02

      Please consider my suggestion above re 18+ rating for risky comments that might offend underage members.

      • [Deactivated] on 14/05/2012 - 20:50

        Thanks we will, one issue here, is how do we police that and what about the issue for those in an office environment vs when they are at home. That does complicate things

  • hatts on 14/05/2012 - 21:17

    I wonder if prawns are on special this week?

    side note: A site-wide off-topic comment toggle would be a great feature

    Edit: Decided to add something relevant

  • perkinma on 15/05/2012 - 13:42

    Firstly I think kudos to Neil for keeping a pretty level tone throughout this whole thread!!

    But to try and stay on topic - it seems to me that the report button does function well for most of the scenario's people have raised. If you feel a post is off-topic, then report it so it gets some mod attention. To the best of my knowledge if a post is moderated a reason is given - if you disagree then give your reasons and challenge the mod. Given what I have seen above, if you can give a good account for your view then the mods will listen and they are prepared to overturn their own decisions if it is genuinely warranted.

    No one is perfect, not even a moderator, but personally I have a lot of time for anyone that is prepared to give reasons for their view and simultaneously will listen rationally to opposing views. In general this seems to work well at OzBargain. It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything all the time.

  • Natt on 15/05/2012 - 19:04
    +3

    My own opinion is that the purpose of the site is to share bargains.

    There are spots for off-topic and humour and I think the site does well to support that.

    But those spots are not really as posts inside a deal (although I have been guilty of it occasionally).

    And to be honest the bulk of the lingerie deals are just spam, but the community likes them because a sexy women is involved.

    And the threads fill with rubbish because that's what most of the "deals" are.

    If I had my way the lingerie deals would be banned, so I don't think the mods are being unfair.

    If you want a space to comment about how hot a girl is or how you might like to entertain her (that's toned down) there are plenty of other sites for that.

  • [Deactivated] on 16/05/2012 - 15:55
    +3

    I reckon at least 50% of comments are off topic. And usually the most fun, and no-one wants a boring OzBargain.

    Those posts being hidden seem to be due to personal dislike reasons rather than consistent hiding of anything off topic.

    • quickling on 16/05/2012 - 23:45
      +1

      I think it is rather sinister to think that the moderators have anything personal against anyone on the site…

      I agree with the first paragraph of your comment though.

      What to do!? +ve for the first, or -ve for the second?

    • Moderatorneil on 17/05/2012 - 01:10

      I can assure you that I have no personal dislike reasons for unpublishing comments. I certainly have no issue with women in lingerie or humor.

      I've had some time to reflect on the post and I think Natt hit the nail on the head.

      My opinion:
      The big picture is that the post is nothing more than SPAM that appealed to the male crowd. 67 positive votes for $6 lingerie from HK? Look at the history of IBUZone. The rep is well aware that posting a deal of a scantily clad women, while possibly not selling many, has gained over 9000 clicks to the site.

      The off-topic guideline is simply that, a guideline. The majority of threads here admittedly have off-topic comments but the on-topic comments outweigh the off-topic in most. Thus, the moderators take a blind eye to them. The end goal for unpublishing any comment is to steer the thread and the users in the right direction. So if a thread consists of mostly off-topic comments, it more than likely will be acted upon. I should also add that many of the comments that were off-topic also fell into the inappropriate sexist remarks section.

      There are some good suggestions here so we'll see how we can integrate those into further developing OzBargain.

      • [Deactivated] on 17/05/2012 - 08:34
        -1

        In the example quoted - the Lingerie deal, it would probably be agreed by most that many of these were off topic posts.

        Some points to consider.

        Is it THAT bad when

        1. Off topic post gets removed and another stays? People are taking this too personally. Many of those here complaining have had an off topic removal. Just like being caught speeding, some people get caught others dont. We bust someone in one thread we bust another in another thread.

        2. We all agree some humour is ok, but wholesale humour in a thread isn't ok. So we pick off a few and reduce this to a manageable rate. Just like all crowd behaviour we cant arrest everyone, we just try to reduce the noise.

        3. And then some humour just goes too far, and like everything in life there are personal judgements, we can get it wrong, but we are human, we can also apologise for our mistakes.

        4. In this case, Neil was about the only mod active on the board at the time. We are volunteers, we dont get paid. Hey if you'd like to pay me, then maybe something can be worked out. (I'm dreaming here, and hell this is humour, is off topic, but its embedded)

        5. There is an attitude that mods are waiting to pounce, we are expected to be everywhere, at all times, and to understand every nuance. We have 10 REPORTS to act on, some complicated, some simple. They all need acting on. And with this taking up personal time, do we have the luxury or the desire to spend time going through the whole thread.

          Then confronted, with a thread of 50 or so off topic posts, a mod decides to cull them down, to slow the off topic direction, and on a deal we probably think is suss anyway. And our comic friends (as in making jokes), now turn nasty.

        6. Linked to number 5. There are times I'm about to go out. Yep MODS have managed to get this concession from Scotty albeit reluctantly (Off topic Joke), and I see a report, that when I look into it, I find its complicated, its line ball. I'd like to talk with another mod to get an opinion, but the missus is calling out, so I can make a wrong call, right call, or just leave it. Guess what, some days I go one way somedays the other. Depends on which Rolling pin the Missus has, or my threshold of pain that day.

        7. Then sometimes we get no reports, we just happen along. We are here because we like bargains.

        There is the TWAM forum, some have used that to make their voices heard. Some above I have had discussions with. Through that in many cases we have developed a respect for each other. And that's been after some strong words.

        People need to get off the "MODS are the enemy trip", we are of course wrong at times. But we Moderate to make the board a safer place, to ensure bargains are what are promoted. And we have the same sense of humour albeit ours are probably jokes at the expense of members vs jokes at the expense of moderators (Just kidding) but sometimes it does need moderation.

        And to get rid of the MODS you just have no Moderation, you wouldn't be able to have a joke anyway, as the board would be filled with spite and spam. Again just remember, jokes can also be made at anothers expense and thats how wars start.

        • SomeGuyOnOzB on 17/05/2012 - 14:09

          I'm also guilty of off-topic humor too :P

  • quickling on 16/05/2012 - 23:38

    It seems the moderators are very busy already dealing with spam, sockpuppeting etc etc. Those things are very important to keep this site running.

    Since they cannot consistently deal with all offtopic posts because of the workload, my vote is that they should not moderate offtopic posts at all.

    Or, get more moderators that will apply the offtopic rule consistently.

    imho there is already a very good system where the majority get to decide what is good and bad for the site and what they would like to see on the site.

    • [Deactivated] on 17/05/2012 - 08:46

      Yes that's one way. But now please give your definition of whats an off topic post.

      A 2 page rant on the troubles I have been having with my mother in law? Is that ok to leave? And then telling you to politely pull your head in when you give some advice in return.

      And then me telling you that Julia Abbott has something or other, and that no one should drink Coca Cola as its made by beer swilling capitalists who want everyone to die of cancer….

      Ideal solutions take a little more thought in an unideal world….

      And how do we define the majority?

      The ones who stay and fight, or do we include those who dont want to fight on an issue and move away?

      There are 281 members on line as I write this (1781 Guests) how do I know that your comment is representative? Not saying it isn't, its just not that easy to measure based on a few comments here.

      Thats the quandary. Ideal worlds vs real worlds

      • quickling on 17/05/2012 - 20:34

        I have never seen anything which I considered offtopic which was not spam.

        I suppose it is reasonable to delete offtopic comments which are pages long, maybe anything more than 10 lines is taking up too much screen space.

        How do you define the majority? While I believe there is fairly extensive consultation with members of this site, in the end decisions will be made which are not guaranteed to reflect the majority view. Also, I am a firm believer in the principle that if you do not speak out then your voice is not heard.

  • scotty on 17/05/2012 - 14:00
    +6

    Alright. Just want to say "thank you" for all the feedbacks. OzBargain is constantly in development but for anyone with software/website development background you'll know that getting things done will take time.

    Moving forward,

    • Yes agree that scrimshaw's is a good solution. Rather than unpublishing the off-topic comments (which I agree some are gems and life of this website), we'll mark them as off-topics. They might be hidden or sub-thread collapsed by default, but people can still read them and reply them.
    • Marking the comments as "off-topic" would be a collaboration between both the community members and moderators. Enough people report a comment/comment-thread as off-topic, mods will then mark them as so. Maybe it can be automated somehow without moderator intervention. We'll see.

    We'll be working on these (getting code developed, tested, deployed and getting everyone to participate, etc).

    As of OzBargain becoming more moderated, I do not agree. Moreover, I think consistent moderation is a key towards community growth. After all this site is about sharing and discussing bargains, and I can see many can be turned off from off-topic and inappropriate comments. I am talking to the more vocal ones here, but believe me or not, it is still a small part of the OzBargain community (which we have 100k visitors daily).

    • quickling on 17/05/2012 - 20:34

      +1 for consistent moderation…

  • [Deactivated] on 17/05/2012 - 14:06

    One other thing to consider.

    In a recent post the deal was voted up, by someone who mentioned they liked the pictures.

    So here is another quandary, are people voting UP deals with funny posts, to increase the "fun", or because its a good deal?

    Ah if life was just simple…..

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