Unions and politicians are blaming each other for the train cancellation. News keep rapidly changing their articles, so it's hard to find out what's going on. Some examples:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/it-s-going-to-be-a-very-…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-21/nsw-train-shutdown-ex…
Who do you think is responsible?
Option #5, Fat Controller
it was Thomas, he colluded with the other trains (Percy, James, Emily, henry)
Craig Kelly blames the Chinese
Clive Palmer blames Mark mcgoven
nurses strike tick
train drivers strike tick
who else has a strong union and will strike next….
Maritime Union were on strike not that long ago…
Teachers.
Neither of these bits are my words. Just stuff from a couple people on reddit this morning. It's obviously only one side of the story but it's an interesting insight.
The RTBU gave notice 2 weeks ago of planned Industrial Action to begin this Monday, including a number of items such as a ban on Overtime shifts, enforcing that we work our master roster, and not accept daily changes to our agreed standard set of rostered jobs (which do capture every train service on the network). The Government took the RTBU back to the Fair Work Commission with the argument these actions would lose the state too much money and endanger public safety. Wanting to come to a mediated position without arbitration by the FWC, the RTBU agreed to withdraw the ban on Overtime, the enforcement of the master roster, and if a specific instance occurs that the ban of daily changed standard working (amended working) could cause a public safety issue, then it that too would be temporarily lifted to solve that specific issue and that issue only - for public safety.
This all parties agreed to. However, it seems the State Government did not understand what they just agreed to. Upon realisation, on Sunday they appealed again to the FWC to again have it overturned to which their claim was rejected as THEY were the ones to agree to it just the day previous.
And now at 1:30am they have unilaterally decided they can’t run ANY trains. All because we won’t accept amended working to our agreed standardised jobs. Every 6 months, we agree to changes to the standard working to be able to capture any minuscule changes to the timetable. They are agreed and formalised which then forms our master roster. And now the Government are saying they cannot run a railway at all unless they are able to change our agreed jobs every single day!!
As a train driver who is a non union member, I rocked up to work this morning at my rostered/altered working time.
Unfortunately management have made the decision to cancel all trains for the entire day.
As such, I’m sitting around being paid to do nothing, due to a MANAGEMENT DECISION.
The RTBU and it’s members have decided to take industrial action by refusing to accept altered working. In accordance with our current enterprise agreement and crew working arrangements, there were options available for management to cancel diagrams, place all crew on standby and have them work as directed on the day.
Unfortunately MANAGEMENT have made a decision to cancel all trains.
Stations and crew depots are full of staff who have signed on, getting paid and are ready, willing and able to work. However are unable to do so, due to this management decision.
It is always about salary, don't let their waffle talk detract you from that fact. They will tack on other supposed "issues, safety" etc but you will always find the union clamouring for money when industrial action is involved.
Considering their income stream the last 2 years would be a pittance because of Covid they have some neck in my opinion to be using the public as leverage when asking for a large increase. Plenty of businesses have suffered because of Covid but they think it's ok to demand a big raise because taxpayers are paying for it.
The sooner these trains get automated the better for everyone
No surprise that the unions are blocking every opportunity to automate the trains.
I mean, what else would you do if someone was trying to eliminate your job?
@Minimum chips: Much like all the automations that factories have done over the years, the outsourcing of work etc.
What's new?
"Airline staff smartened up & abandoned the unions" Yes that was a really smart move. They have been sacked by the thousand, many entitlements removed. When C19 came around Qantas dumped them. Actually it's hard to find an industry where Unions were dumped and things got a whole lot better for workers, would be kind of counter intutitive.
Anyway just remember next time your sick of take leave not to mention many many other entitlements it's the Unions who won those for you. It was not, repeat not the generosity of employers.
The next best perk with WFH is not being affected by Union action.
According to Morrison and Frydenberg on TV yesterday, this mess is all Labor’s fault, and what we should expect if Labor win the federal election. I guess some people won’t think through the fact it occurred with both state and federal govts being Liberal
👷 = Union
The saddest part is people don’t think critically anymore and actually believe that propaganda (it is propaganda after all), like most LNP voters.
I bet people don't know voting Palmer is a LNP vote for giving them preferences and massive lobby power to the fat prick .
Gave him crazy power from helping them win the unwinnable election last time .
Palmer exists to get the LNP back into power, given they benefit him the most.
To be fair, I don't think you know what "most" LNP voters actually think or believe.
I voted Liberal last election because they actually had a coherent policy rather than Shorten's that was wide and varied without any "how's". I had less confidence in him as a leader than ScoMo.
And to be frank, I don't like either major party. I hate the two-party preferred system, The whole thing is flawed. I opted to go for the devil I know rather than the devil I don't. And I'm just one of many Liberal (but swinging) voters. It's easy to simplify our understanding of what LNP voters are to make it easier to understand but that is also a flawed way of thinking. It's such a very nuanced issue.
It's all mind games.
People are all for giving the train workers a pay rise, but as soon as they find out those workers have a differing political view, they will lose all support and even demand they don't get a job.
Imagine a rail worker choosing not to get vaxxed, or just having some conservative viewpoints.
Majority of OZB'ers will call them evil straight away.
If you must ask, I support a pay raise for the workers.
If you must ask, I support a pay raise for the workers
But where do you stand politically?..
Is Australia as bad as USA where political views instantly make another person vile scum? On the platform indicator they should have " train driver is a anti vaxxer" or "train driver loved scomos ukulele playing" I wonder how many people will wait for the next train as a form of protest
Trains need drivers? What is this, the 1800's?
As someone who lives in Tassie: What are these train things you speak of ?
It blows to be mainlander.
big6
In the early 19th century they invented a large tracked machine powered by steam which permitted travel across vast distances. This gave way to the ability for people to marry outside their immediate geographical locality further avoiding the risk of a spouse being a close relative. Don't worry Tasmania, one day you will join the future.
"vast distances" ? Yeah, nah, sorry, not around here.
When you have some value to mainland, we'll connect you via trains like UK-France.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Sydney-Trains-Train-Driver-…
Fact is, the pay itself is not heaps for living in Sydney, The people who talk about the higher end of the salaries dont realise the kind of extra overtime and shift work and non-standard hours that are worked to achieve this level of pay. As well as being a train driver comes with extra pay due to the danger / mental health stress part due to some of the accidents, suicides, violence they come across on trains and tracks.
Even though the higher end of the salaries is more than what i make, I dont know if i would do their job over my desk job siting in an air conditioned room. I am also not sure about the abuse and / or flexibility they get being a driver as I am not sure you can easily change hours / shifts, leave early etc if there is an issue you need to address at home (aka family / child).
Interesting. I've heard multiple times from multiple Train drivers themselves that they are making $180k and up with their weekends and strategic OT, giving them the free time during the week to do the stuff they want.
And if they can't/don't feel like working, it's a sickie or find a good reason to cancel the set.
Note that these were few years ago before COVID.
Yep absolutely. The trick is to pick up the OT hours then cancel your normal pay shift. So essentially your base rate becomes 2.5x the base rate. Achieving 180k year is not that absurd when they can use that trick to get $75 + / hr
From what I've heard:
change hours / shifts
You can usually swap shifts (and attached loadings) with other drivers by agreement - if you incur OT not attached to the original assignee, it might need additional approvals. Sometimes there might be an opportunity for an additional/alternative shift, then your original allocation can be put to the pool of spare drivers or as an OT opportunity for someone else.
leave early
Not likely by your own choice. Occasionally you might get lucky if your train gets cancelled in the right place, or a positioning run is faster than expected etc. Leaving late when there's a fault or disruption, absolutely (though you'd get OT for it)
Like going into a metronet well known black spot and claiming the train radio is not working? Or flicking circuit breakers times until a key system fails (there are logs). Note that this is many years ago information.
Something that seem to get buried in the he said/she said arguments…
Politicians almost always demand the unions abide by the arbitrator/fwc commission in these types of situations.
Yet in this instance they ran a back door play to avoid the fwc decision.
Kind of smells like arrogance and unfairness.
And lets not forget, this is the government cancelling all services the same day they opened the state/country to travellers. If they were that serious about not impacting tourism they would have reserved the shutdown option for another day.
No one is innocent in this debacle, but I think in this case the government screwed us over.
Yep. That's exactly what happened a few years ago — Dom Perottet himself got industrial action suspended via the FWC because it would result in a safety issue. But that requires the evidence and facts to be on your side.
To perhaps add some clarity to who 'cancelled the trains', my understanding is that the rail workers who attended work yesterday, for their shifts, were paid for that shift.
Doesn't sound like a 'strike' to me.
I know some of the workers and their conditions are trash.
NSW gov tried to pull a tricky one and got found out.
And now, the NSW Transport Minister claims it was Sydney Trains that shut the network:
"Transport Minister David Elliott on Sydney Trains shutting down network without his knowledge: "I don't expect them to send a car round at 2am in the morning and wake me up and tell me. We pay these people to do their job. At 12.43am it was their judgment call as executives.""
And the transport minister is the executive of the executives, literally his job to ensure this stuff doesn't happen on his watch.
Blokes complaining about having to get out of bed to do his job.
Personally I'd be expecting the transport minster to know that such a deliberation is occurring, and for said minister to be notified within a few mins of any such decision being made, no matter what time that is. And then be prepared for interviews on breakfast radio at 6am.
haven't caught a train in over 10 years so could not care less
"I can afford to not catch trains so (profanity) the people that do"
At the end of the day, it's the state government who is at fault, Labor or Liberal.
So, the Feds can suck it up and deal with the fact their party f-ed up…again. Sad for them that this dogs breakfast is in an election year, but that's the grave that they ultimately made and it's not going to help them since this is a long line of f ups (Ruby Princess, Nurses Strike etc)
Who cares. Train drivers are at the bottom of the list of public servants that should be paid more. They have cushy jobs sitting in their little driver cabins, protected from the rest of the world. Pay nurses, doctors, paramedics and police more as a matter of priority.
A train driver can have 1000 passengers on board and is responsible for their lives. I for one am happy for them to earn a good wage, have excellent training and have strict rules around fatigue.
The issue you raise is fair regarding the pay of frontline workers and they should paid more.
Train drivers can be replaced by autonomous bots.
There is no need to pay humans $100,000s when bots can do the job.
If it was that easy, you don’t think a liberal government of 11 years would have started the ball rolling on that one?
Of course it is possible. But the cost benefit is not up to scratch right now, especially given you’ll still need some staff on the trains for customer service, safety.
And before you quote metro, that was a built for purpose proposition in metropolitan sydney unlike a network that evolved over 165 years and travels via some remoter parts.
But simplistic ideas such as these are usually in the speciality of the greens or palmer/one nation brain capacity
@Vote for Pedro: SpaceX managed to go from nothing to launching a Roadster into orbit in only 16Y.
Taxpayers will keep paying for zombies for the next 100Y as long as they keep saying Ohhh, it's too difficult. Let's just sit on our bums and do nothing.
Train drivers can be replaced by autonomous bots.
Certainly. At a capital and maintenance cost of?
Maybe lobby your local MP to start investing massively in automating the rail network?
@BobLim: I don't use public transport. It doesn't make a difference for me whether they're bots or not.
It makes a difference for the 10000s users that have to pay more for no added value just to keep the zombies happy.
pay more
You're missing the point - do you have any idea how much it costs to implement automated operation? Especially on an existing network?
@rektrading: If it’s so easy, why hasn’t an 11 year old liberal government started?
It’s easy to yell from the sidelines and attack frontline workers who do a fantastic job.
@BobLim: 9 cities in China already operate automated subway/suburban railway systems, and 9 others are under construction，When the Chinese government introduced why it invests in railway automation, it said that automation brings advantages such as "reducing human operations and improving operational safety", "improving operational reliability and availability", "optimizing human resource allocation" and "controlling investment and reducing operating costs"
….During the operation period, by increasing the density of trains to meet the requirements of passenger flow transportation, the transportation capacity has been greatly improved. Reduce maintenance, management, the number of vehicle drivers, and personnel training, effectively reducing operating costs….
@RickyMoon: No one is denying automated train systems are the way of the future. What the argument here is that there is no government willing to spend the ridiculous amounts of money needed to retrofit our 165+ year network.
The cost benefit doesn’t stack up, otherwise the union hating libs would have done it. They’ve had 11 years in power to get the ball rolling and they haven’t.
@Vote for Pedro: Since everyone knows that railway automation is the future, why are the Australian government and unions doing nothing? I think this is caused by the shortsightedness and inaction of the Australian government. It also highlights the shortsightedness of the Australian government and the rigidity of the union system.
When we consider the cost of automated railway systems, We should know that the rebuilding and refurbishment of the rail system will generate job growth and stimulate the economic vitality of Sydney and Australia as a whole. If the government always considers the current cost difficulties and just keeps the rail system running, the problems of Sydney's rail system will never be fundamentally resolved, passengers will continue to experience train delays, cancellations and inefficiencies, and eventually Sydney's rail system will become Development bottlenecks in Greater Sydney.
PS. Be aware that every time the train is delayed strike and cancelled, it will bring economic losses to the society. And a more advanced and automated train network can create economic value for our society, it can alleviate the problems of overcrowding and high housing prices in Sydney's urban area, and it can bring people and economic mobility to regional areas.
@RickyMoon: Lol. Your position is laughable. Unions do not control investment. Unions cannot stop implementation of new technologies.
Let’s also not forget, there has been no strike. Industrial action as we’ve learnt has been going since September and trains have been running. The government admitted they made the decision because their expensive lawyers screwed up their case in the FairWork Commission.
So, you need to stop spreading misinformation and also blaming unions for governments failure to invest.
However it should be noted, despite this governments pork barrelling, even they are hesitant to invest billions on an old existing network if the cost/benefit doesn’t make sense.
@Vote for Pedro: I never said that the union can execute a specific road plan and a specific investment ~ in fact my criticism is aimed at both sides.
I am also critical of the NSW government's short-sighted investment in the rail system and It is true that the train stoppage was not caused by a strike, but it also cannot be denied that the frequent strikes by the train unions have caused various inconveniences and negative effects on the economy.
Investment in public facilities, especially for railway systems, has always been carried out with long-term planning and sufficient financial support, just as the establishment of a subway station is often located in an undeveloped area, which is based on the development of the region for at least ten years in the future. make decisions that focus on long-term benefits rather than short-term gains.
The NSW government train union and even the federal government must work together to start and drive the process of train automation. Otherwise, as the population grows, the Sydney urban area will only become more crowded, housing prices will become more unaffordable, and of course the train system will not meet the needs, There will be more train interruptions and strikes.
frequent strikes
Ok this will be tricky for you. Give me dates. I’ve lived in nsw 30+ years and I can’t remember one.
In fact, since 2008 you can only take industrial action (not just strikes) during an enterprise bargaining period.
I hazard a guess you’re talking from some ideological opinion rather than fact
@Vote for Pedro: I'm sure you don't take Sydney trains very often~
28 September 2021
20 October 2021
29 October 2021
07-08 December 2021
13-14 December
20-21 December
7 February 2022
@RickyMoon: Incorrect. There were no stoppage of services in those dates.
I travel daily
*also if there were (which there weren’t) they were legal industrial actions approved by the fairwork commission to support enterprise bargaining for their agreement which expired early last year. So in actual fact this would be a fully legal action in accordance with the law.
But again there were no train stoppages on those dates
@Vote for Pedro: Sure~ you could say there is no stoppage for the train service~ but the union did strike in those days and many passengers Including myself had to spend much more time than usual on their trip or have to transfer 2-3 bus lines because of the union strike ~ This is a fact, you need to admit it~
@RickyMoon: So what were the specific actions on those days. Not all industrial actions are strikes.
You are now shifting your position from strikes to inconveniences. It seems you are being intentionally misleading.
Of course legal industrial action is intended to inconvenience. That’s the point.
@Vote for Pedro: So industrial action is not the same as a strike? As long as the union doesn't have a stoppage train service, shouldn't there be news of a strike, even though all the media are reporting on the "strike" headline?
The public's perception of the "industrial action" initiated by the train union is actually a strike, and it essentially damages the public interest. Frequent use of industrial action as a means of appeal is inherently worse.
That's why I'm very supportive of train automation, as stated by the Chinese government, train automation can reduce maintenance, management, the number of vehicle drivers, and personnel training, effectively reducing operating costs, So as to provide a better working environment for the train crew and fundamentally solve the problem.
@RickyMoon: The media are no longer reporting it as a strike because the truth came out. You are intentionally being misleading.
Industrial action can include banning overtime or wearing a badge. A strike or more accurately a stoppage is only one type of action and is rarely used. More importantly it is legal during negotiations for a new agreement and the only leverage workers have.
Post accurate facts rather than attacking workers. You almost sound like the Premiers media manager, and that is pathetic.
@Vote for Pedro: It's hard for me to support the continued industry action that continues to hurt the public interest because they serve the whole city, rather Sydney trains have a unique position and nothing can replace it in terms of public transport services status and value.
Why don't you go to the headlines of Google related news? Every industrial action is reported by the media as a strike, there is no exception~ In the eyes of the media, the industrial action that took place on 28/09, 20/10, 29/10 and the entire December is a "strike"~ Is this kind of constant harm to the public? Is it so hard for you to admit that industrial action for interests is considered a strike by the public?
@RickyMoon: So what you are saying is workers should just bend over and take everything a boss does to them because it inconveniences you, despite the industrial action being completely legal?
It also seems you have backtracked on your list of dates, and are ignoring the big thing that shut down the network on Monday. You seem to only want to attack workers as opposed to the boss who shut down the network (even though they reached agreement in the fairwork commission on Saturday).
But Liberal stooges will be liberal stooges
@Vote for Pedro: I have no reason to attack the workers, believe me I know better than you what the labor movement is,
Public utilities are under a natural monopoly，Every move of Sydney trains as a public utility will seriously affect the public interest, Train unions should also prioritise public interest.
Whether considering the future development of Sydney or considering how to improve the working environment of Sydney trains, the industrial upgrading of Sydney trains cannot be delayed. The automated driving system and automated management of Sydney trains need to be launched as soon as possible.
The endless industrial movement will seriously affect the common interests of workers and the public, and will seriously affect the future development of Sydney.
@RickyMoon: ‘I’m not attacking workers’ then proceeds to attack workers. Pathetic baseless spreading of misinformation
I think its all coming out in the wash today. Government basically admitted it was their call. Well done Dom Perrotit - you shut down Sydney for political point scoring
Nurses deserve more money long before train drivers do.
Its not an either or. Nurses deserve more money full stop. The elites have convinced the working class to fight amongst each other for who deserves it more and to push the rest down
I like the 4th choice, I wondered if that will be included in all future polls.
Train driver, or workers have good salaries but they still not happy. Wish one day someone could take over those greedy people, there are many people out there lost or just couldn't find a job….
For what? To push pays down every where? Whats your end goal? Undermine good paying jobs because someone’s convinced you they don’t deserve it.
What you should be pushing is for everyone to be brought up to a fair living wage.
By having the public sector pay well it flows on to the private sector to get better wages.
It should be upward pressure not a race to the bottom.
The claims were not limited to train drivers though.
this is a regular occurrence in pre covid melbourne where most of the time the culprit is some dumb f**k gone to the tracks in city loop and every single train line through city is affected.
Maybe the Trains said something bad about Trams people so the internet cancelled them
Sky News wondering what woke crime Sydney trains committed to all get cancelled
Calling it ‘cancel culture gone mad’, Sky News hosts including Rowan Dean and Andrew Bolt have blamed the ‘left wing Twitterati’ for Sydney’s train cancellations, saying the trains must have misgendered someone or made an offhanded comment about trans athletes.
Lol, i guess great minds think alike, my line was better though, Trams, great play on words, works on so many levels
ozbargain
Dom did it.
Do train drivers really deserve a pay rise? Their job could easily be automated (see the Sydney metro). Let's just replace them with Raspberry Pis.
Ok see you in 20 years when that's actually done.
What about the other train workers that are covered by the award?
easily be automated
Wait until you see how much signalling/train control engineers and repair technicians cost. I suppose it partly depends on whether you think it's better to pay Australians to perform a job, or pay foreign companies for incredibly expensive complex equipment to reduce the opex. Retrofitting is very hard (assuming you don't want to shut it down completely for several years), building from scratch is easier.
Parts of the job can be automated sooner/more easily than others (acceleration, braking, signal compliance), but you still need a driver for many other functions, and you'd then need to argue that such a job is no longer a "driver" and therefore isn't paying as much anymore. Good luck with that one.
The Epping to Chatswood existing line has already been converted to automated Metro.
Sydenham to Bankstown is being converted to automated Metro - to open in 2022.
You realize we literally have automated trains (the Metro) in Sydney right?
*Puts on foil hat.
It was part of a Plan and the Great Reset.