Is It Worth It to Buy a Petrol Car Right Now? Given EVs and The 2030 Goal etc

I am in the market for a car right now and have set my budget at $30,000 max. It's a huge investment for me and I'm trying to get the best bang for my buck, which is hard due to covid inflation and the chip/stock shortages. Not many deals around and the used market is over inflated.

Given stock levels I probably won't be able to get new until next year so have been looking at close to new used cars from dealers. I've basically narrowed it down to something like a Mitsubishi ASX or a hatch like a Kia Cerato. Both have demo/used 2021 models with 5000ish kms available at my local dealers for just under RRP. Not by much though! :/

A family member pointed out that EVs will only get better in price and petrol cars will lose a lot of value in the near future. Given it's such a huge investment for me and I plan to use it for the next 10+ years, they've basically told me it's not worth the money and I'd be losing $$$ in the long term.

I wanted to get Ozbargain's opinion. I don't know if I can stretch to an EV, but it's got me thinking that it might be the better value prospect. That, or get a shittier car between $10k - $15k and just accept that it's going to be VERY overpriced due to covid inflation. At least then I'm only sending $10k down the drain and not $30k!

Would you buy a new(ish) petrol car atm given all of the buzz and changes being made in the EV sector?

Comments

          • @Ryanek: I think you're right.
            But we will have to move away from Silicon and Transistors, and move to another compound, and probably using lasers to pass the information. I also think we will move away from binary (on/off stage), to using trits (-ve/zero/+ve). Using three-power states is going to be a very difficult to develop at first, since, this is essentially a quantum computer that we're looking into.

            So where our current computing is somewhat of a complexity and is seemingly wide/inefficient:
            2^(64) contains 1.84 x 10^19 bits of information.
            3^(27) contains 7.6 x 10^12 trits of information.
            Whilst, this is less, it is still competitive and very impressive for being much simpler and much much more efficient. Or we can upscale and build a more mainstream system that is more comparable to today, and it will be a whole lot faster, but still slightly more efficient and basic like:
            3^(42) contains 1.1 x 10^20 trits of information.

          • @Ryanek: I'm talking about function. When they said that computers were only used for and the future use for them was research, tragectory calculation and whatever else top level science was needed at the time. What we're not talking about is computational power as it's irrelevant.

            The best analogy would be talking about quantum computing today. Saying there's a market for perhaps 10,000 quantum computers in the current day doesn't sound unreasonable, but in 100 years maybe there's a use for every day people discovered and they become just as prolific.

      • +1

        Yeah well in 1943 "bugs" in a computer were the ones they were literally pulling out of valves that were making the computer than was the size of a factory floor seize up. Not many people had a need for those when the world was busy making tanks, planes and bullets.

  • +6

    petrol cars will lose a lot of value in the near future

    I doubt that's a concern for the next decade or more, a large percentage of the population wont be able to afford to buy a new EV so that will keep the second hand ICE market ticking along IMO…

    • Value as in market value in used car market will be decreased substantially as all the gov policies will drive toward increase the running cost.

      If you remember how 4000cc Holden ended up back in late 2000 then LPG conversion was the trend, my guess is how it will ends up as well for ICE car in general.

    • What will happen to the price of fuel though due to supply and demand?

  • +3

    Worth noting that the asx is an oooooold car, just with new make-up! That will hurt depreciation the most

    Hard not to suggest a Corolla hybrid if you can wait up to 6 months

    • +1

      Yeah, I noticed that in the reviews. Plus there are so many around, the re-sale market will be overloaeded in 10 years. It has concerned me a little, but in terms of features it seems the best value for me atm. I figure if I'm driving it for as long as I plan to, I might as well get a car that does what I want it to.

      I did look at the Hyundai Venue but it's kind of ugly lol.

    • +1

      I was going to say they. ASX is awful!

    • Know someone in Melbourne that got a Corolla Hybrid hatch from stock. No wait required. But obviously always depend on people's expectations on trim, color etc.

  • +1

    Nobody knows the future. Currently, EV cars start at $60,000. It depends on how long you keep your car. If you keep your car for the next 10 years, you would have matched the usage value of the EV. The petrol prices might touch $2/L but electricity is also going up every year. Tomorrow batteries or semiconductors may be in shortage. There are news/rumours that Govt is considering a tax on solar panel owners. So you never know.

    • +2

      I am sure as Government revenue from fuel taxes go down they will invent one to recoup it from EV's…..

      • +1

        It's already happening in SA, Vic, NSW? despite the mandate for global warming reduction

    • +2

      EVs don't start at $60k, the MG is $44k.

      • Sorry, my bad. I did not know about MG's price.

      • that's still 14k more than OP has.
        But $ for $ how does a MG $44k compare to a $44k petrol?

        If EVs go like solar, or linux on the desktop, it may be "just around the corner" for a few more decades.

        • that's still 14k more than OP has

          You know people on these boards. You say you got $1m then they'd ask you to have $1.5m because you could buy something so much better. No realism. Just like the idea EVs will never depreciate when all these manufacturers are coming out with EVs. The adoption curve is new products are high prices, until there is mass production and new entrants.

          It sounds like this is the board of easy money.

  • +5

    Every car depreciates with time. My thoughts are that as EV technology is still very new and is now rapidly developing. So any EV you buy now will be so out of date in 10 years, it would be close to worthless. Just have a look a 10 year old Prius as an example. Stick with a petrol engine for now, or a Toyota hybrid.

    • saw the same with early EV hondas which had a range of less than 25miles!…..Now only good for museums !

    • No way any Aussie is keeping a daily car for 10 years, majority seem to upgrade/onsell every 2-3 years.

    • A few years ago your example would be good, but as the general public has become aware of how good Toyota hybrids are, the value of Prius(es) has gone up too. The very cheapest 10yo/220K Prius on Carsales is $10K, the next cheapest is $14K. Maybe the same thing will happen to quality EV's bought now - they may still hold decent residual value after 10 years as the public discovers their merits.

      Of course, all cars depreciate as you say, and better bang-for-buck will be available for your EV dollar as time and tech advances.

  • +4

    Well over budget, but plugin hybrids are also an option. I was able to justify my MG HS PHEV ($46k delivered) by calculating the fuel savings over the course of the 7 year loan; the upfront capital was more than made up for with fuel savings. EVs were not an option, including but not limited to capital cost & towing ability.

    If you spend an extra (say) $14k on a PHEV, that's $2k per year more, BUT given I'm already saving $2k a year in fuel then it breaks even. I still get the flexibility to fill up for long distance trips. I also avoid the issues with used cars like warranty, inflated prices etc. Very happy with the result.

    • +17

      I was able to justify my MG HS PHEV ($46k delivered) by calculating the fuel savings over the course of the 7 year loan; the upfront capital was more than made up for with fuel savings.

      How did you justify the shit car though? lol

      • +2

        Christ, you can get a full EV MG for $44k, even less with rebates in the right states. I would buy a lightly used (1~3yo) Outlander PHEV before I bought a new MG PHEV.

        • Have you seen the issues people are having with outlander PHEV batteries? I was keen on a second hand one until that. MG may well do better with its different battery chemistry, but we won't know until those are 5 years old too.

          • +1

            @md333: MG PHEV battery has the same 7-year warranty as the rest of the car, which was a big plus in terms of peace of mind (used to be 5 years I think).

            If it loses capacity within 7 years, I've got good chance for a replacement. And with the growth of EVs and PHEVs the cost for replacement batteries will only go down, so a dealer will be more inclined to pay instead of fight (should they blame me for any warranty claims).

            • +2

              @Switchblade88: Hopefully will be good.
              Mitsubishi initially claimed 8 years for the PHEV battery, but have since backtracked on it, removed all reference to it from their webpage and have been refusing warranty claims on the batteries.
              There is some speculation that the batteries are not actually that bad, it is just the car software not permitting it to be used.
              No idea, how common the battery issue is, you only hear about the ones with problems, but it is enough to put you off paying a premium for a 2nd hand PHEV.
              MG should be a generation ahead, the issues were with 2014/15 outlanders which were pioneering at the time.

          • @md333: Nope

      • +4

        You owe me a screen… that ones covered in coffee

      • +4

        BOOO

        Where are the Toyota PHEVs, Mr Car Dealer?? lol

        @pegaxs I'm 70km from the nearest EV charging point, so pure EV is not a viable option. Also, Outlanders are Outdated; the MG was the best out of the three available PHEVs currently in the market (Kia Niro was a distant second, it was pretty terrible and no luxury features for the same price).

          • +11

            @spackbace:

            the MG HS is a shit car

            It isn't, and anyone with a more objective view than yours would be able to say the same. It's been the best car I've owned so far, and I do not regret my purchase. Simple things like the powered tailgate and 360 degree camera means my mobility-impaired wife can more easily use the car.

            And since you presumably haven't used one as a daily driver (being a rep from a rival car company), that make your statement rather disingenuous. I was trying to offer the OP a viable alternative, but I don't see your contribution to the discussion yet…

              • +10

                @spackbace: the problem is your personality seems to be of the type that you're the main character

                no one cares about your background nor should you expect people to

        • +1

          I'm 70km from the nearest EV charging point

          Don't have power points at your house? How many km do you drive in an average day? More than 300km?

          Also, Outlanders are Outdated

          Granted, but I would still put more faith in an outdated Outlander than an MG, but it is a car and works as a car and drives like a car. It's a bit like saying… "oh, the iPhone 12… sooo outdated…" Also, there are far more Mitsubishi dealers than there are MG dealers if you are away and something goes pear shaped.

          I'm not anti-MG (like some other "cHiNa cAr Bad" users), I think some of their models are excellent value and know a lot of people who own them who love them and give them a good wrap and I have got a serious eye on the 2022 full EV when that gets released here, but as far as their PHEV range goes, it just seems over priced when compared to their full EV offerings.

          • @pegaxs:

            PHEV range

            Range would imply more than one model lol. Only one is the premium model with the PHEV drivetrain, so we bought the luxury stuff whether we wanted it or not!

            I'm sure the full EV ZS is ok, but it wasn't for me; and I don't have any experience to recommend it as an option to the OP given the price disparity.

  • +9

    I bought a new ICE car last month. While I have no doubts EV sales will increase significantly by 2030, ICE cars will also still be around. I believe ICE will actually still be the majority of sales by 2030 until EVs come down in price by a large margin. Cheapest EV in Aust is currently around the $45k mark, you say your budget is $30k max. Seems clear which you should be buying if you need a car right now.

    • We need to start regulating ICEVs now, start pushing the price up. We just really cant afford to be selling uneconomical cars that have a life span of up to 30 years of locked in CO2 emissions. We should have already started to phase out anything that doesn't have low fuel usage, hell we should have started 10+ years ago.

      I work for Toyota and Jesus Christ I have no idea how petrol Klugers are legal

      • Jesus Christ I have no idea how petrol Klugers are legal

        Lol yes need to tow a petrol tanker behind you

        Makes me wonder about the ppl who buy the hemi Grand Cherokees!

      • Better immediately phase out coal power generation in AU too? Short-term the electricity costs double? Good plans.

  • +3

    Get a $35k EV next year

    Or get a $15k petrol car knowing it'll depreciate at a similar rate to the $35k ev and have greater maintenance costs. (not percentage wise but dollar wise)

    • +1

      Yes, buy an EV from a company new to Aus and play Russian Roulette

      • +3

        Everyone was new at one stage.
        *It's been making cars for 18 years

        BYD achieved top rankings in the 2015 J.D. Power's Quality Study
        In September 2016, the company became the third-largest manufacturer of plug-in cars, with a total of 161,000 plug-in cars produced since 2008
        China-based automaker BYD Company Limited (BYD) sold a total of 520,687 vehicles in 2018 (more than tesla)

        • -3

          Dealer network is a huge thing - servicing, warranty repairs, etc. You would expect warranty repairs with a new brand which hasn't been exposed to the Aussie climate yet, and you'd need to drop it into the dealer to get a repair.

          And then what happens if that brand pulls the pin after a few years?

          I can think of better ways to gamble $40k

          • +1

            @spackbace: Tesla didn't have a dealer network at all?
            They're doing pretty well.

            • @Drakesy: Tesla started as a premium product. They weren’t cutting corners to reduce costs like an entry level vehicle will be. Budget vehicles in the market ALWAYS have por quality and faults to match.

              • +3

                @Euphemistic: Orrr you could pay tesla prices and still get a Tesla with budget reliability?

                Teslas and electric vehicles aren't selling based on reliability
                They're selling based on the technology

                • @Drakesy: selling on technology in a market where battery technology is changing rapidly! Like an iphone 3GS vs iPhone 13………chalk and cheese and the 3GS is almost a brick now!

                  • @Ade99: iPhone 3GS and iPhone 13 both have near-identical lipo batteries… analogy doesn't work lol

                    • @Switchblade88: If that is what you think, then stick with your 3GS…..

                      • +2

                        @Ade99: One of these phones was a groundbreaking new device released 12 years ago.

                        And one is the iPhone 12 but +1

            • +1

              @Drakesy: Pretty sure spackbace works for a Toyota dealership so I'm sure they have certain views on the importance and value of dealer networks ;-)

    • +2

      I think BYD and especially Nexport, are almost dead in the water here in Aus. Nexport's webpage hasnt been updated in ages, neither has their EVDirect page. Nexport have even removed their Fartbook presence.

      As much as I am behind new EV models and manufacturers, I just think that BYD is nowhere near coming to Australia at the moment. Dont hold your breath waiting for a new BYD Dolphin any time this side of 2025??

      I still stand by my other comments I made about Nexport. Until I see actual consumer models, wheels on the ground (and not a shitty van and a butt-fugly people mover), I am not convinced they are anything but pumping up their own venture capital bottom line.

  • +4

    Depreciation is completely irrelevant when your car is 10year+. Old cars begin to sell at the same price no matter +/- years on either side.

  • +2

    face a bit of reality…. even with labor we wont be banning ice cars in the next 10yrs

    further right now your choice of EV is limited so to me. buying ICE cars is fine

    also you probalby stand to maintain your 'investment' given some ICE cars will keep value due to rarity when the ev apocalypse comes

    unless a $35k 500km EV SUV comes out from a brand that has a good rep and good dealer support then really they can all get f'ed.

    • 50% of new car sales by 2030 to be EV was both major parties 2019 election policy despite the smear campaigns the LNP spent big money on (who said 25-50% lmao)

  • +11

    Drop your budget. Buy a 5yo i30/corolla/Mazda 3. Keep it for 10 years and keep saving. At 15yo the car will be worth little anyway so it doesn’t matter if you can’t sell it.

    Buy EV later with your saved money.

  • +1

    EVs also require charging infrastructure.

    So for me, unless you have solar cells on your house then I wouldnt buy an EV.

    What am I supposed to do if I'm in a high rise/high density?

    • I've often wondered this, when they'll start to retrospectively add charging stations in bays of high rises. I'd love just a normal 10a GPO so I can vacuum my car!

      • It’s probably too hard because they can’t run them back to your individual meter. Makes it too hard to charge you for what you consume. If it goes on the body corporate bill, would you be happy to pay for someone else using 30kWh to charge their car every few days when you use under 1kWh to vacuum your car?

        • They're going to have to do something because it'll start to weight into people's purchasing decisions soon, if not already.

          Just have 2 meters then? Or group billed for the individual dwellings (which mine is) and individual bill for for the bays.. Or group the bays of those with chargers only. Not that difficult.

          • @peterpaoliello: True it’s not unsurmountable. For exisiting developments it’ll be most like a few commercial chargers, the type you get an account with. New builds will need to have chargers built in and metered back to the residence.

        • I'd guess they'd come up with a pin or card based system to charge it back to the right apartment

    • My high density building in the CBD has PowerPoints near most spots. There’s also a number of charging stations nearby. My closest ones are The Rocks, Broadway and Rosebery I think.

      It’s not unreasonable or impossible to own an EV in a high rise high density building.

  • +1
    • I had actually looked at the Leaf a bit, but they seemed to have middling reviews. Also seem a little smaller than I want. More in line with an i20 than an i30, though I admit I haven't actually checked the measurements.

      • +1

        I owned a Nissan Leaf & it was a great city car. I was impressed with how much value it held, considering I got it as a demonstration model with 900km.
        You're going to save heaps on fuel (10,000km/year ~ $1500/year fuel savings) & of course maintenance costs.
        It is better than most cars for acceleration in the key 0-40km/h speed band.
        On a standard house power point you can charge from zero to full over night (9 hours).
        You should be able to get it under $10K with a bit of haggling

    • for $24k? nahhh mate. where do you want to go with 120kms battery range?

      Buy a $24k toyota corolla - whichever year or model, better value for money.

      • 120km on a 5yo Leaf is optimistic. By this time, most older Leafs are probably down to 9 or 8 bars on the SOH and have lost about 50% of their range. And there is no way anyone is getting 10 years out of an older Leaf EV.

    • Suprising it's still 25k

  • +3

    It's never "worth it" to buy a car. Buy a car if you need to or want to.

  • +1

    People in high density housing (like me) would never buy an EV. Not now anyway.

    • My high density building in the CBD has PowerPoints near most spots. There’s also a number of charging stations nearby. My closest ones are The Rocks, Broadway and Rosebery I think.

      It’s not unreasonable or impossible to own an EV in a high rise high density building.

  • If you're looking long term, don't forget ICE cars are becoming more fuel efficient every year, and governments are going to have to substitute their Fuel Excise revenue source.
    You can expect Kilometre based registration charges coming to a State near you soon, and your eyes will bleed.
    Offpeak electricity and subsidised charging stations will gradually disappear, so running costs for each type can be expected to become comparable.
    at least a hybrid will give you virtually free electricity.
    A friend took his Uber MG Melbourne to Torquay this week, and fortunately there was a RACV Charging station to get him home - a 200k return trip - not my idea of a good idea.

  • We were in a similar situation earlier this year.
    First of all go around the dealers and check what is actually in stock and available today. That will severely limit your search.
    We would normally buy used but the used market is/was insane.
    Ended up looking at a Yaris cross hybrid or a Kia 2L petrol seltos.
    The Yaris was a better car but the price gap and the 7yr warranty from Kia swayed us. Even though the hybrid seems to get great realworld fuel economy (forum reviews etc) it wouldn't make up the price difference in the 5yrs we would have it.
    Need to add up the cost of servicing too, from experience if you don't get it serviced by the same dealer you bought it off for the whole warranty period then it isn't worth the paper it's written on.

    I'm really keen to get a PHEV van or ute but the government's latest ev policy has probably put them at least 5yrs away. The products exist but it isn't worth the risk for the manufacturers to bring them into our market yet.

  • For your budget you could possibly import a Leaf e+ from Japan, very respectable range (close to 400km I think)

  • +1

    Buy a second-hand petrol car. Wait for the EV revolution to happen. Remember that currently electricity in Oz is coal.
    Why? Buying new tech is way more expensive than old tech. Currently Oz electricity is coal - not really environmentally friendly.
    Governments may decide to mandate public transport in big cities, if they really want to help the environment.
    Private vehicles for city folk are a convenient luxury the planet cannot afford.
    Mandated public transport/bikes in the cities and shared (hired/rental) vehicles for intra-city journeys.
    Won't happen, because people only care about the environment when it is convenient, cheap, and most importantly - done by someone else (government, business) - not themselves.

    So, put yourself first - save money by getting a petrol car, wait for EVs to become cheap and commonplace, if they do.
    Save even more money by taking public transport/ride/walk if available (and take real action to save the planet).

    • +2

      Currently Oz electricity is coal - not really environmentally friendly.

      That’s changing and you have the option of using solar direct from the roof. It’s a poor argument against EVs because ICE vehicle power will always be polluting. EV power will become more environmentally friendly.

      • i think realistically your only "out" if your own free standing home and solar cells

        you cant trust this govt or any succeding govt. to move away from coal so i dont indulge in any fantasies about nuclear or renewables

        • +2

          Even with coal fired power EVs are more energy efficient than ICE.

          Petrol powered cars are under 30% energy efficient once the fuel is in the tank. Does not allow for extraction, refining or distribution of petrol. EVs are above 80% energy efficient. Distributed coal fired electricity is around 40% efficient. This gets them both pretty close to the same energy efficiency without allowing for extraction of the fuel, of which petroleum is more energy intensive. (Yes I’m aware my figures are a bit rubbery, just going from memory)

  • +1

    I plan on buying a new ICE car next year lol. I think the main thing would be a greater loss in value if I were to sell it towards the end of the decade, or early next decade, but I intend on driving it until it dies so depreciation doesn't really matter for me anyways.

    My thoughts are this:

    Right now, EVs are expensive and I don't see them being a relevant player on the sales charts until closer to 2027. I think they'll make up around 50% of all new car sales in 2030. As of now, they make up like 2%.

    In 10 years from now, ICE technology will be considered archaic, if not already. However, with EVs having a much higher ceiling and extensive improvements forthcoming to things like charging times and range, the EVs now and over the next few years will also be quite out of date compared to what you'll be able to buy next decade. EVs in the next decade will also be substantially cheaper so I don't think the resale of current EVs will be very good either.

    The other thing is that no one knows how an EV bought today will hold up in 10 years time because none of the major manufacturers are selling them with the exception of Tesla and MG, and they just haven't been around long enough to know.

    So I personally wouldn't hesitate to buy an ICE car. Though consider the fact that the trend of petrol prices is upwards. Perhaps a hybrid?

  • +1

    70 years ago we envisaged a world of flying cars. Vehicles of the 50's even emulated rockets. Back to the future, now, do you see any flying cars?

    They can't even run air conditioners in summer without blowing up the grid, who are they going to cater for electric vehicles?

    • They never actually made flying cars though did they? Don’t think the whole world, especially the first world, is like Australia, unable to avoid blackouts and with expensive electricity.

    • People can't be trusted with cars on the road.

  • +1

    I think the ICE depreciating due to EVs is unlikely to be much of an issue.

    ICE will depreciate rapidly, they always have, and probably always will. May do a little better if new ones are banned and old ones become scarce.

    When you come to sell it in 10 years, potential buyers will likely be comparing it with other 10 year old cars, and there will be very few 10 year old EVs, because there are very few new ones now.

    If new EVs do become so cheap and available that it affects the resale of your 10 yo car, they will have an even larger effect on depreciation of EVs bought now.
    If ICE cars are just unpopular because everyone wants an EV, they are still going to sell, because there still won't be enough cheap EVs available.

    I think EVs are great, planning to get another one soon, and I think new ICE cars are probably a poor investment in general, but don't think the coming of EVs particularly makes them worse than previously.

    • Supply and demand. When there is more EVs (not restricted supply) and lower prices then ones who went in early are bound to get their investment cut.

      I just don't think a Tesla model 3 purchased today will hold their value if you look at history of the car / PC industry.

  • +1

    Depends on how many kms you do (you'll need to factor it in if fuel pricing is a major concern). Re: depreciation it depends how long you want to keep it. If you aren't planning to sell it/get rid of it for a long time if won't really matter. Unless you are doing a lot of kms there is stil a very big premium to driving an EV.

    I think of cars as an appliance. I get rid of them when they are no longer able to get me from A to B reliably, cost effectively or as safely as a I want. I don't see them as a style/status thing any more than a lawn mower but each to their own.

  • +1

    Goodcar co has used imported low EV from $19000
    May be worth enquiring send to all states

  • +1

    Do you need your car for country trips? If not and your daily KMs are around 50km max then consider a used EV, Nissan Leaf. At least take one for a test drive. Very low running costs and zero maintenance.

    • this makes sense for a 2nd commuter car

      but the only cheap ones at the 24kw ones… the 40kw ones are expensive for what you get

      even so, i have strong aversions to the leaf in every possible damn way… i find it even more ugly than the Juke

      I do like the idea of the long range EV200 van… would be nice at 300km range and with 5 seats but these are crazy expensive for what you get

  • +1

    imo EVs will never replace currently combustion engines until a new type of battery technology is created/mass produced at reasonable prices. The biggest problems with lithium ion battery is that it just takes too long to charge.

    • Also size and weight of battery power storage is poor v oil. Still if you are charging from the grid fossil fuel power generation at large is more efficient and is dropping year on year as renewable sources increase.

      As a petrolhead I'd buy an EV daily tomorrow if possible on middle income and transition the overlander to it as well when mobile renewable power generation was possible.

  • +5

    Without gov's incentives, EV is not going to be competitive (price wise). Just look at how (Australia) gov acts on climate policies, I'd say petrol cars are be good for next 10-20 years. Don't worry mate.

  • +1

    Interesting concerns but I don't think it's really an issue if you don't intend on selling the car and are using it fairly regularly.

    We've more or less come to the peak of ICE, so the technology isn't going to changing significantly any longer.
    On the other hand, EV technology inherently will improve over the next 10 years as much as it has done over the past 10 years, if not more. This could mean that you end up with much more affordable and improved EV by 2030. By 2030, a 2021 EV car is not exactly going to hold much value when compared to a brand new 2030 EV car which may be cheaper and have more significant range and features.

  • +1

    I guess the implied subsidy of the 2% of people who can afford an EV by the 98% who cannot is what annoys me most, plus the fact that there is no plan to improve the grid to service these implied large number of new EV's by 2030 nor the (at present values) $2Bn hole from lost fuel excise.

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