African Heritage as a Condition of Employment

cookie2 on 22/09/2021 - 21:40
Last edited 23/09/2021 - 19:12 by 1 other user

Looking on seek at jobs etc and came across a government primary school role that stated the following as a Condition of Employment.

This role is identified as available for African heritage applicants only. Confirmation of your African heritage may be requested.

Just intrigued to know if I'm the only jobseeker out there, feeling like race is an obstacle in the job market before I even get to the interview.

I don't think it's right for race to be a Condition of Employment. Language, i get it. But race? This just feels like blatant positive discrimination aka discrimination.

It's hard enough to find a job, now my heritage can either get me a job, or close the door in my face.

How do others feel about it? Thoughts?

Link below should work
Check out this job on SEEK: Transitions and Cultural Safety Officer - North-east African from Flemington Primary School - https://www.seek.com.au/job/53802042

Btw to anyone wanting popcorn, I've got a few from a recent half price promo, we can share 😁

***Update ***

Although my intention was to genuinely get others opinions, i have noticed that the job ad has now been removed off multiple platforms including Seek. Does make one wonder why.

Poll Options

348
Ok with me
278
Not ok at all
37
Don't care

Education & Work

Comments

fossilfuel on 22/09/2021 - 22:38

+63

Some government and private organisations have exceptions and exemptions from anti-discrimination law. This allows them to recruit someone based on their group.

https://www.humanrights.vic.gov.au/for-organisations/excepti…

For example, the Department of Justice and Community might allow only women to apply for a sexual assault counsellor position because patients who have been sexually assaulted will most likely refuse to work with men.

From your ad, the position entails working with African students with migrant/refugee experiences. Given the trauma that refugees/migrants may have experienced, best practice is to employ someone from their background so they form stronger connections with the parents/students. They find more comfort talking to someone who speaks their language/from a similar background and therefore more likely to follow-up and connect with school.
- cerealJay on 22/09/2021 - 23:19
  
  +10
  
  While your response is the sensible one here, pointing to actual laws and acts involved, it's still a bit "on the edge" in respect of the Seek ad.
  
  The examples in the linked act don't mention race as an exception in employment. I know it's implied, but they have not specifically mentioned race in the "employment exceptions" section. Which to me suggests it's in the danger zone.
  
  The argument could be put forward, that in a strongly multicultural society like Australia, anyone with required qualifications could assist particular groups of students in transitioning from primary to high school. My own view is that it would not require a particular race to do that job well. Students draw inspiration from many qualities in their teachers or "safety officers".
  
  Even if the successful applicant is highly likely to be of African heritage, or the expected race, the idea is that such qualities are not specifically looked for, as we're trying to be a multicultural society…. but not doing a great job apparently.
  - fossilfuel on 23/09/2021 - 00:15
    
    +24
    
    https://www.humanrights.vic.gov.au/for-organisations/excepti…
    
    Under exceptions for race discrimination and vilification towards the bottom of the page.
    
    Discrimination that favours a particular race may be permitted if it is done to better meet the specific needs of people belonging to that race, such as welfare services targeted at a particular group. For example, a health service for Aboriginal Victorians may employ Aboriginal staff members in particular roles.
    .
    The argument could be put forward, that in a strongly multicultural society like Australia, anyone with required qualifications could assist particular groups of students in transitioning from primary to high school.
    
    Most migrants/refugees do not know much about multiculturalism or come from multicultural countries. Most African migrants/refugees come from countries that have nil to minimal engagement with people from diverse backgrounds. They may have come from very rural regions, have basic education and fled their country to escape persecution. Some have never seen a white, Asian etc person in their life and will be suspicious of them.
    
    Imagine if you left Sydney and resettled in very remote Africa. Would you find greater comfort in talking to the local tribes who may have a myriad of knowledge or someone from Sydney with similar shared experiences/culture?
    
    Qualification gives people skills to make a change but is useless if the students/families refuse to engage. Knowing someone at school with a similar and familiar culture and lived experience will strengthens relationships and hopefully, result in positive change.
    - cerealJay on 24/09/2021 - 19:03
      
      You're right, I missed that text on the page about Aboriginal staff members in particular roles. That web page needs a button to expand all the hidden parts, there's too many "click to expand" items.
      
      Imagine if you left Sydney and resettled in very remote Africa. Would you find greater comfort in talking to the local tribes who may have a myriad of knowledge or someone from Sydney with similar shared experiences/culture?
      
      If I went to remote Africa to resettle, I would be happy to be on an adventure outside my comfort zone. Finding a "Sydney person with shared experiences" would not increase my comfort if the locals were already friendly and welcoming. In fact, the Sydney person may even be a distraction to settling in.
      
      Keep in mind that these kids are at school anyway, and must engage with their teachers and peers. The implication you're presenting here is "the migrants will not engage with white people", which includes teachers.
      
      But they simply must engage with everyone. There are far greater challenges in life than where you need to engage with someone of different colour to you. Sorry, but issues with not trusting white people isn't one to be nurtured with over-sensitive responses.
      
      Remember that the teachers will always be friendly and welcoming, so this is a human-level interaction primarily. People learn fast. Pandering to projected sensitivities related to racial similarity or lack of, is not constructive. Matching up racial similarities like puzzle pieces is indeed a form of racism.
      
      That said, we all want everyone to be happy and migrants to settle in. I would expect the role in the job might indeed go to the right person, which might overwhelmingly be someone of African heritage. But advertising it that way… I'm not sure it's the right thing to do. Particularly if there's too much acceptance and sympathy of "not trusting white people".
      - fossilfuel on 24/09/2021 - 21:22
        
        +11
        
        @cerealJay: I used to hold a similar thoughts and beliefs like yours until I started working with migrants and refugees in schools. When I was still in school, I knew all people experience hardship but until I worked with people from lower SES backgrounds, I've come to realise that they experience immense disadvantage and challenges compared to most people.
        
        There are far greater challenges in life than where you need to engage with someone of different colour to you. Sorry, but issues with not trusting white people isn't one to be nurtured with over-sensitive responses.
        
        But they simply must engage with everyone. There are far greater challenges in life than where you need to engage with someone of different colour to you. Sorry, but issues with not trusting white people isn't one to be nurtured with over-sensitive responses.
        
        Remember that the teachers will always be friendly and welcoming, so this is a human-level interaction primarily. People learn fast. Pandering to projected sensitivities related to racial similarity or lack of, is not constructive. Matching up racial similarities like puzzle pieces is indeed a form of racism.
        
        This is extremely dismissive. It is very easy to say that students must engage with teachers and peers when in reality, refugee students experience engagement issues. It is also very easy to say that people learn fast to build relationships when in fact, it takes a long time for many refugees. It's probably easier for students who were born here or were well off. However, for refugee and migrant students, it is very hard.
        
        I have worked with some African refugees/students so here's my insights. Most have come from very rural villages. Life is very primitive, with no schooling or very poor quality of schooling, no exposure to English and Western culture. Most have never seen outsiders before. Due to war, they were forced to flee. No time to pack or get their belongings. They left immediately otherwise they would have been killed or tortured. I have students who were forced to see their family members and friends shot/executed in front of them. Women and girls have been targeted for sexual gratification. My colleague worked some adolescent refugees many years ago who were child soldiers and were forced to kill and torture others.
        
        The lucky ones who escaped would have walked hundreds of thousands of kilometres for many days and across countries, only to live in overcrowded refugee camps and dilapidated/temporary tents in the neighbouring country. These camps are rife with disease, malnutrition and water issues. Many had to stay in these refugee camps for over 7+ years before the UN acknowledged their refugee status and was granted protection/resettlement visas by Australia. 7+ years is a very long time, that's equivalent to a child's primary schooling years and longer than most combined bachelors and masters degree. Living in nothing more than a tent, very basic food and toileting facilities.
        
        Once they resettled, they are allocated a caseworker, housing and funding to rebuild their lives but note that Australia is a Western society with highly advanced technology and vastly differently culture compared to rural Africa. Most experience assimilation issues and don't cope because of their trauma and immense cultural differences. Some don't cope in school and teachers think they "misbehave" when it's actually the psychological trauma they have suffered. Some rarely come to school. Some end up addicted to drugs. Some have become teenage parents and had their kids removed by family community services. Some end up incarcerated.
        
        Refugees are not bad people, they are people who have suffered extensively and therefore resort to unhealthy but protective behaviours. It's very easy to say that they must engage with school or tell them to trust professionals when their safety and trust have been fundamentally uprooted due to their experiences. It takes them a lot of time to rebuild the safety and trust that was forcibly taken away from them.
        
        When we connect refugees/migrants to services and support, it must be the right service and support. This will help them engage. No matter how experienced the worker is, there is no point in recruiting someone if the people that they are targeting don't engage with the worker which is why there are job ads with very selective criteria. Just like with Aboriginal health workers, Indigenous people have experienced substantial disadvantage and therefore mistrust government organisations. Having an Aboriginal health worker that is relatable will significantly improve engagement.
        
        I would strongly recommend watching Hotel Rwanda if you haven't seen it as it's an honest and eyeopening movie about the Rwandan genocide. If you're in Sydney and if the restrictions are lifted, I would recommend watching Across the Skies, a theatre play by refugee students.
        
        kanmen on 25/09/2021 - 00:03
        
        +2
        
        @fossilfuel: Thank you so so much for sharing this perspective! I hope this makes it easier for others to understand why this prerequisite is necessary. It's naive to think a white/other person can bridge the gap of cultures and effectively engage with these students who want someone they feel comfortable with and can understand what they're going through. A person from the same/similar culture is the best way to bridge the gap between the two cultures- as they themselves would have a good grasp of both cultures.
        
        [Deactivated] on 25/09/2021 - 14:42
        
        @fossilfuel: Saw it black people killing black people with machetes - how is this relevant - why is this "the white man's burden"
        
        cerealJay on 25/09/2021 - 16:30
        
        -3
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        I have students who were forced to see their family members and friends shot/executed in front of them.
        
        Yes and the offenders in those crimes were the same race as the victim. You claimed the refugees don't trust white people, and therefore need someone who looks like them to guide them through school.
        
        But your own story illustrates devastation and violence from wars and social disorder in their home countries. Not from invading Western forces, or other cultures. Any psychological trauma may even be triggered less by non-Black mentors, since an association with Western culture and safety was established when they were granted refugee status, or settled in this country.
        
        I'm speaking of African refugees not Australian Aboriginals. For Australian indigenous communities, obviously the distrust of white-fella authority is grounded in past wrongs. That's a different topic with its own complexities.
        
        But for African refugees, if anything the promise of safety in modern western society, and fair opportunity and rights should qualify the suitability of Anglo-looking, Asian-looking or Anything-looking people in roles such as guidance councilors. Provided of course the candidates have the language skills and knowledge of those refugee cultures. Which may indeed mean the candidate was once a refugee themselves, but it shouldn't be a requirement.
        
        Any preferential employment of migrants should therefore be based on Migrant Status not race status. For the purposes of economic assistance for example.
        
        Keep in mind that just because someone is white, doesn't mean they'll easily make friends and get a job. We all must study or train over the long term to get things we want, professionally and socially. Sometimes it takes a lifetime to get where you want to be.
        
        Again… we must teach why the legal system does not permit discrimination. We must teach the value of learning over the long term and what that can bring. Even the not-so-smart humans (of any race or background) are smart and skilled if they try over the long term.
        
        You can't just say "they will do drugs and break the law unless we exclude white people from mentoring positions". That is false logic and promotes racial division where it wasn't needed.
        
        The response to repeated drug-fueled crime activity needs to be progressively tougher if individuals resist, refuse, and conscientiously oppose basic community standards in modern society. Chances are given; chances run out; that's how it works.
        
        At this point, we may need to simply disagree on some points. Which is fine. At least we all agree on wanting a healthy society. How we get there may involve disagreement.
        
        While I appreciate your efforts to describe your experience, it doesn't address why in particular African refugees should distrust people who don't look like them. Particularly in light of what they fled from in their country of origin, and the safety they now have in their new home. As they approach adulthood, personal responsibility is core to living in this place. We need qualified people to relentlessly teach that in different creative ways.
      - crentist on 25/09/2021 - 12:06
        
        @cerealJay: And what if you found yourself unwelcome and struggling to settle into a new society? Do you see how that might lead to feeling of isolation? What if it didn't feel like some fun "adventure"?
        
        Have you ever tried living in a new place? Feelings of isolation and displacement are common even among comfy, well-adjusted expats. The "expat bubble" is only partly laziness, and partly struggling to find a footing. Most people would struggle to build an entirely new social circle in another city, let alone continent.
        
        This isn't about kids on some fun adventure holiday who are happy and making new friends everywhere they go and supported by some chummy teachers. It's about people who aren't at that level, and helping them get there. You can't just skip right to some cookie cutter version of how you'd like things to be happy and inclusive, without trying to put their needs first at some step along the way.
        
        cerealJay on 25/09/2021 - 16:50
        
        -3
        
        @crentist:
        
        And what if you found yourself unwelcome and struggling to settle into a new society?
        
        Immigration by definition is welcoming.
        
        You're attempting to paint a binary argument where your side is about helping people, and my side is a cookie-cut template of idealism.
        
        Hypotheticals aren't helpful, but if I felt unwelcome I would first look at where I am and where I came from. Did I not have education opportunity before? Housing? Income opportunity and welfare safety nets? Did I not have clean running water and internet at my front door? Did I not have a mobile phone plan with unlimited calls for $10 per month? The list goes on.
        
        Besides, your point doesn't address the main discussion. I never said that mentoring positions weren't needed, from suitably qualified professionals who may indeed have been refugees themselves. Like an archivist may have a personal interest in historical collections and so on. But requiring those mentoring positions to be a particular race shouldn't be necessary.
        
        "How was your first day at school, son?"
        "Mum, the safety officer is white, so I skipped the meet-up, and I'm not going to school tomorrow."
        slap "you are going to school."
        "Okay"
        
        It's called tough love. You need to put your feather down, and get real.
        
        crentist on 25/09/2021 - 21:45
        
        +1
        
        @cerealJay: Hard not to paint you as idealist, or to be more precise, naive and overly simplistic, when you pose a hypothetical where slapping a kid with a problem magically solves everything without even addressing why they had an issue in the first place.
        
        Or that immigration is absolutely welcoming, and doesn't come with major problems that get in the way of whatever the positives are.
        
        My side probably seems to be about helping people because it's about trying to help people in the best way for them. Not thinking up a hypothetical solution that might work for yourself, and thinking that should be enough for everyone. Especially when it's as insultingly simple as "if I feel like I'm struggling, I'll just tell myself that I'm not". And slap them if that doesn't work.
        
        But hey, maybe you've just solved every mental health issue?
        
        Have you ever tried living somewhere new? I spent a few years in Japan, and even among people from wealthy countries, who were there by choice, and often quite wealthy themselves, mental health issues are quite common. There's a short path from homesickness and isolation, to depression. It doesn't just come from having a bad life, but also from lacking a support system.
        
        Simple example, a couple of friends came from Australia, the guy had a job, and his wife had massive anxiety issues for the first few weeks, until she found an Australian cafe to start her days at, which gave her just enough grounding to barely make it through his job posting. Which was only 6 months.
        
        It doesn't take much imagination to think that the children of immigrants, with no control over their situation, might have a little more to deal with. Income opportunities and mobile phone plans might not be enough to prevent them slipping through the cracks. But if support from someone of their own race goes some way to helping, then why not do what works for them, instead of foisting on them someone they won't respond to and telling them to harden up if they don't like it?
        
        cerealJay on 26/09/2021 - 01:04
        
        -5
        
        @crentist:
        
        But if support from someone of their own race goes some way to helping, then why not do what works for them….
        
        Have you surveyed migrant students to discover "what works for them"? Do you have any data to support the claim that a particular race must be used in certain educational roles or else harm will eventuate?
        
        How much harm? Tell me the extent of harm that has occurred. What are the recorded negative consequences that have been proven to emerge from assigning the "wrong race" to a role as educational facilitator, mentor, or related.
        
        How many students in your extensive research voted for race-based appointment of staff in their local schools?
        
        You have no data. Only a vague, unstable feeling that seems to come from a combination of political bias, and flat out ignorance. Your argument was already in pieces before you wrote your first word in this thread.
        
        I suppose you think white people are all the same, and all agree with each other because they all have the same experiences and "culture". Maybe you should try to be less racially divisive, and think more in terms of uniting humanity. Finding common ground, forming alliances and not dicing everyone up into race-based chunks. Good luck with that.
        
        crentist on 26/09/2021 - 01:45
        
        +1
        
        @cerealJay: Well unlike you, I expect that those concerns are part of the process that led to these particular positions being required in the first place.
        
        It's not my job to hire social workers to support African migrants so I don't know the data you are asking about. But neither do you, and you are the one questioning it. I'm only questioning you.
        
        I'm not so far up myself and absolutely dismissive of those migrants and people who actually do the work to support them, to assume that the decision to hire race-specific support workers is taken lightly, and doesn't have the ultimate goal of helping them fit into the rest of society.
        
        What do you think happens if an ill-fitting racial group feels supported by society?
        What do you think happens if they don't?
        
        You can suppose what I think about white people all you want, probably suppose what my race is to while you're at it. Just like you can also suppose what kind of support you think other people should respond to. All either one does is show how narrow and self-centered your world view is.
        I haven't made a comment about white people, or any race, but you've taken a disagreement with your own views and fabricated an assumption of racism that doesn't fit the discussion at all. You're wanting to dismiss my my entirely personal disagreement with you as nothing more than petty racism, while accusing me of being racially divisive? Look in the mirror mate. I'm talking to you, not the racial group you want to hide behind.
        
        You'd prefer to withhold support that might reasonably facilitate integration, in order to satisfy your own personal views that forming alliances doesn't require a mutual effort. It's a good thing you're only an armchair critic of people who aren't yourself, because you'd smugly sow division in the name of your twisted idea of "unity", where you expect everyone to be like you so you don't have to think about anyone else.
        
        cerealJay on 26/09/2021 - 02:10
        
        -4
        
        @crentist:
        
        I don't know the data you are asking about.
        
        I know. It was obvious.
        
        Further more, the burden is actually on you and others here to know that data and demonstrate its validity. Why? Because the burden is always on the party who makes the move to exclude or say "no" to something or someone who would otherwise be included or accepted. There is no burden on me to prove anything in objection.
        
        Job applicants excluded by race, runs against normal community standards and conventions, and therefore the burden is yours to provide sufficient evidence to back that idea. So far, I have not seen evidence, only thoughts and opinions that amount to "some children feel unwelcome, so it must be a racial issue". This is not even close to sound reasoning, and so this is where our little exchange ends for me. Thanks for playing.
        
        crentist on 26/09/2021 - 02:35
        
        +1
        
        @cerealJay: Well that actually puts the burden on you, because you don't seem to realise what you are even disagreeing with. The data I do have is what the human rights commission has stated, and that is what you responded to.
        
        So it would be on you, as the party saying "no" to the human rights commission, to demonstrate the validity of your clearly uninformed opinion.
        
        And to reiterate, your retreat from the argument based on false claims of lacking data still didn't prevent you from fabricating accusations of racism as another cowardly shield to hide behind. For someone shifting goalposts to ask for "evidence", you clearly have no respect for the word.
        
        kanmen on 26/09/2021 - 14:06
        
        +1
        
        @crentist: You are a very patient person, thank you for persisting. Seems like some very heavy confirmation bias going on in some of the most gross and ignorant comments I've seen on this post.
        
        The irony is that this person's view that people should just adapt and integrate and that there shouldn't be any issue in doing so is precisely why we have the problem of people not being able to adequately do so. It's why we as a country have such an issue with identity and belonging, because people like this seem to simplify it to a level that suits their own circumstance. It blows my mind that the basic concept of community led social work and integration is such a foreign concept.
        
        crentist on 27/09/2021 - 01:36
        
        +1
        
        @kanmen: Thanks. You're absolutely right. Hard to imagine how anyone can think they are being helpful while stubbornly refusing to consider adjusting to meet the needs of those they claim to want to help. It makes their claims of being open and accepting nothing more than lazy vanity, just fluff and lies thinly veiling an expectation that everyone else should adjust to suit them, and deserve to suffer if they don't.
    - Chchnu on 25/09/2021 - 22:59
      
      So based on that example. Can clinics hire whites only to specifically provide health services to white people?
      
      Or it is wrong for a white customer to prefer a white doctor when its ok for an aboriginal customer to prefer an aboriginal doctor?
      - crentist on 26/09/2021 - 02:09
        
        @Chchnu: Fair question, but the answer is in the example. It's allowed when we have "welfare services targeted at a particular group".
        
        As a racial group, white people are unlikely to be specifically targeted for any particular kind of welfare. The reasons for that are implicit in your question.
      - Ughhh on 26/09/2021 - 07:00
        
        @Chchnu:
        
        Can clinics hire whites only to specifically provide health services to white people?
        
        Does it have any impact in the purpose and end goal of the service?
        
        Do those refugee white people need support in transitioning in a foreign country?
        
        Would you be against bra fitting stores to only hire females? I mean, males can count and use tape measures too.
        
        When discrimination is not unlawful
        Like other anti-discrimination laws, the RDA sets out certain limited circumstances in which it is not unlawful to discriminate against a person on the basis of their race. However, the exceptions included in the RDA are more restricted than those in other anti-discrimination laws and only permit discrimination on the grounds of race or ethnicity in very limited circumstances.
        
        Special measures
        The primary exception in the RDA involves special measures. Special measures have the goal of fostering greater racial equality by assisting groups of people who face, or have faced, entrenched discrimination so they can have similar access to opportunities as others in the community.
  - [Deactivated] on 24/09/2021 - 18:56
    
    I don't think you understand what multicultural society means, it's not synonym of a melting pot, it's actually quite opposite of it, it means few distinctive cultures living separately from each other and your trusted government doing excellent job in promoting it. Hiring by ethnicity or race is not only acceptable in multicultural society, it's actually the norm.
    - cerealJay on 24/09/2021 - 19:06
      
      It is absolutely not the norm.
      - [Deactivated] on 24/09/2021 - 19:10
        
        @cerealJay: It is the norm in a multicultural society by definition. You can use heritage, language or culture as a proxy for race but it is still the norm, like you it or not. It's only not the norm for dominating culture.
    - [Deactivated] on 25/09/2021 - 14:43
      
      previously was called ghetto's
- jv on 23/09/2021 - 00:44
  
  +10
  
  Some government and private organisations have exceptions and exemptions from anti-discrimination law.
  
  It doesn't make it right and is still discrimination…
  - Kangal on 23/09/2021 - 20:34
    
    +4
    
    Discrimination in and of-itself is not a bad thing. We discriminate against people, who haven't studied medicine, to prescribe restricted medications. That's an example of "good discrimination" and we do things like this unknowingly constantly.
    
    Unfair Discrimination is bad, and that's what most people think of when we throw the word around loosely. There is an argument to be made, that the "ends justify the means" and so what is happening above also does not make it morally wrong.
    
    PS: I haven't read the Ad, it has been pulled, I am making some assumptions here.
epkh on 22/09/2021 - 23:02

+14

I'm nearly finished with my social work degree and currently work in youth justice where a lot of my clients are from a CALD/ATSI background. I have seen lots of internal job applications which are for people of a specific race (mostly ATSI or refugee community groups (at the moment it's South Sudan, I believe).

Me being brown-skinned already makes my job significantly easier with CALD/ATSI clients. Some of these clients even assault workers simply because they're caucasian, probably because of trauma history or maybe what their parents tell them regarding their history (colonisation, stolen generation etc.) or for whatever reason. Obviously, these reasons are irrational, although these clients do probably connect better with people of their own culture and language. It might not be about what the potential candidate might be able to bring, but how the community/their clients would feel/want.

And what you said regarding a person studying African studies becoming culturally competent - lmao. Imagine learning about another culture taught by; from the perspective of; using science methodology/epistemology; and whatever else of a different country. Some people are completely blind to other cultures, which I have seen first-hand in my peers in my course in a foundational subject literally on multi-culturalism.
- cookie2 on 22/09/2021 - 23:07
  
  +1
  
  So a job ad with a condition of employment bring race doesn't seem over the line to you? What if you weren't brown skined? What if you were Asian (white to be specific, for want of a better word) and wanted that job? Btw i agree with what you're saying and understand your point about what the community may want.
  - epkh on 22/09/2021 - 23:24
    
    +7
    
    I mean if all stakeholders want an African man + it's not illegal to discriminate like this (as explained above in fossilfuel's post), why waste time? Honestly I wouldn't care at all/think its racist/think its dumb if a job advertisement (thinking of a white example) only wanted a Bosnian/Serbian refugee/trauma/cultural worker after their war in 1995 to treat their clients.
    
    There are many jobs for me that I haven't applied for which I want (specifically ATSI ones) because I am not whatever race is suitable. Theres nothing wrong with it, imo, assuming theres a legitimate reason for it.
  - Hybroid on 23/09/2021 - 02:13
    
    +16
    
    So a job ad with a condition of employment bring race doesn't seem over the line to you?
    
    But it's not…
    
    This role is identified as available for African heritage applicants only. Confirmation of your African heritage may be requested.
    
    No mention of race. Heritage and race are not the same thing. You're confusing the two concepts unnecessarily. You can be any race according to that post but they're looking for someone with African heritage to better understand and support similar demographic. Nothing wrong with that.
    - cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 17:24
      
      Please explain here the difference in what you believe they want because i read it as race, while using the different wording of cultural heritage.
      - Hybroid on 23/09/2021 - 18:58
        
        +4
        
        @cookie2: It doesn't matter what race, colour, ethnicity, origin, religion, whatever you are. What matters is that you share the denoted African heritage so that you are better placed to empathise and support others with the same heritage background.
        
        So in theory (basic examples):
        
        You could be Mexican origin but born & raised in Africa.
        
        You could be Asian ethnicity but grew up there & accustomed to African culture.
        
        You could be Anglosaxon but lived there extensively and well ingrained in their culture and lifestyle.
        
        Conversely, you could be an African-American but not qualify, as do not have the required African heritage if you were born and raised in America with no exposure. Or Jamaica. Or Trinidad etc.
        
        The exact criteria of what they consider sufficient, is something only they know and clearly would be assessed. You appear to be overthinking it.
        
        Think of it another way: if you want a Spanish to English translator, you don't have to have a Spanish person for the job but you do need someone that can speak Spanish. Doesn't really matter where they come from, as long as they speak Spanish.
        
        Same thing here. It doesn't have to be an African person. But it needs to be someone with African heritage.
        
        cadwalader on 24/09/2021 - 11:03
        
        +2
        
        @Hybroid: Yup. I know a person who was Javanese Indonesian by birth but was adopted at infancy to German step-parents in Germany. They grew up entirely German. Minimal contact with their Javanese heritage (which is a slight shame if you ask me - but an interesting example). They saw themselves as German and their cultural experience was entirely German. Not even Indonesian-German. It seemed like they only became aware of the (I won't say "their") Indonesian culture/identity quite late. It was interesting talking to that person.
        
        [Deactivated] on 24/09/2021 - 19:08
        
        @Hybroid: Egyptians have pure African heritage same as Libyans and Algerians and somehow you just know that's not the people they're looking for.
    - [Deactivated] on 25/09/2021 - 14:45
      
      Bet you $$$ they are not looking for a white or coloured South African - yes this is subversion of our nation
- snooksy on 23/09/2021 - 13:55
  
  I’m guessing ATSI Is aboriginal and Torres straight islanders. What’s CALD? As a guess is it culturally and linguistically diverse?
  - epkh on 23/09/2021 - 14:27
    
    -1
    
    Yeah spot on. If you ctrl+f "CALD" on this:
    
    https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/publications/research-pape….
    
    You get a summary of who it refers to. At the moment, especially in the youth justice system (at least in Victoria), South Sudan is the focus due to the recent wave of immigration. Like any recent immigrants, especially ones coming from a completely different community (previous it was Lebanese, Vietnamese, Greeks, Italians, etc.), they need help integrating into Australia.
Almost Banned on 23/09/2021 - 00:19

+18

My mother was born in South Africa. Do you think I'm qualified?
Discrimination is discrimination.
It doesn't matter whether it favours one race or another - its still discrimination.
Discrimination is not reduced by more discrimination - it only grows when you divide people into groups and target some and not others.
- cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 00:35
  
  +1
  
  I think it may be decided based on your skin colour. Yes, discrimination isn't reduced by more of. The divide just seems bigger and bigger. I'm sure most think I'm an angry white racist feeling like I can't get a job that isn't right for me anyway. But I created this post as I was intrigued to see opinions and open the dialogue.
  - jv on 23/09/2021 - 00:43
    
    +6
    
    I think it may be decided based on your skin colour.
    
    Just turn up for the job interview in Blackface…
  - morse on 23/09/2021 - 10:38
    
    +7
    
    But I created this post as I ~~was intrigued to see opinions and open the dialogue.~~ wanted to start a controversial discussion and stir up tensions?
    - cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 17:26
      
      Please don't assume you know me one bit. If it stirs tension then that's unfortunate and shows something about how we are unable to comfortably discuss race as well as just generally our views and differing opinions.
      - morse on 23/09/2021 - 17:40
        
        -1
        
        @cookie2: Given the damage racism and ‘discussions’ on race can do, being uncomfortable is appropriate, avoiding discussion when it’s not going to be safe is also appropriate. Sure have a conversation about race when you know it won’t do harm - anonymously on the internet is not that place (only safe for you). This post comes across as provocative - the content not anything about you gives that away. If you want open dialogue, talk to the people who advertised it or the community it benefits to gain some perspective.
        
        cookie2 on 24/09/2021 - 09:15
        
        @morse: I was actually interested in honest opinion not perspective. Online sich as this forum, provides this as it provides people with a degree of anonymity. I also believe this is a "safe" space for that discussion. Discomfort is normal, but not talking about things that can make us uncomfortable, isn't something I can go along with.
        
        morse on 24/09/2021 - 09:50
        
        @cookie2: How, when, and whom by they are talked about makes all the difference.
        
        Is it helpful when commercial tv runs clearly inflammatory and devisive stories on 'African crime gangs' and the like? I'd say not. Is it helpful when survivors of the stolen generation tell their story in a safe environment so we can learn from mistakes of the past? I'd say probably. When I say safe I mean the type of environment where the survivor won't be told they were 'better off' etc, which absolutely happens.
        
        This isn't a safe environment because a number of comments have been a long the lines of 'well aren't we all African?' which is just obviously ridiculous in the context, undermines the purpose of the program the job was advertised and possibly offends others.
        
        Anyway, since most people on the poll think that in this case the criteria is reasonable in the context - hopefully that's helped you with your 'curiosity'.
        
        Just remember if you open this kind of discussion either at work, in a public place or online you run the risk of inviting racist comments, re-traumatizing people who have to speak up to defend themselves and creating more divisions. Sure if you don't do it, someone else will (one of these conversations comes up about every 3-6 months on OzB) but you're the only one who can take responsibility for your own choices of how you raise these conversations - and I honestly think if it was about curiosity, the best people to talk to would be the people who designed the program doing the recruitment, who could explain their rationale.
        
        As an aside I watched the first episode of The School That Tried to End Racism yesterday, which goes for exactly this angle of talking about race. To me with some of the things they did with the kids I wondered about the psychological safety for the participants (I'm assuming it's under the supervision of a psychologist). I really felt for the Australia Vietnamese boy. Worth a watch if talking about race is your thing.
- ginormousgiraffe on 23/09/2021 - 08:54
  
  +3
  
  Did you look at the job listing, it is not possible to perform the job without being of that heritage.
  
  Is it sexist to put up an ad that requires you to be a man to model men's underwear?
  - Almost Banned on 23/09/2021 - 11:03
    
    +2
    
    Not possible?
    Are you seriously suggesting that children can only be taught by people of their own race?
    Wow, that is really going to make teacher's jobs harder.
    - grammarstickler on 23/09/2021 - 16:26
      
      +6
      
      Children from marginalised groups learn better from teachers from their own mob. It is rather more than a suggestion; all the relevant research shows this to be true.
      - Almost Banned on 23/09/2021 - 18:23
        
        @grammarstickler: Please post the studies.
        All I could see is that there appears to be a small correlation but little understanding as to why.
        If the difference is substantial we should apply this across the board - of course that would involve segregating classrooms. Is that what you want?
jv on 23/09/2021 - 00:42

Just do a DNA test.

You are likely to be related to Lucy
- pegaxs on 23/09/2021 - 09:39
  
  Apparently a DNA test can test if your great great great great grandmother believed in a certain religion…
  - jv on 23/09/2021 - 09:51
    
    +4
    
    I wouldn't have much faith in that…
- cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 17:30
  
  Always been interested in one of those but I'm waiting until they can get better data for certain ethnicity subsets. Now i want to start a forum post asking about peoples results. (serious) Unfortunately questioner personality types are often seen as just being difficult, as seems to be the case on this post.
AustriaBargain on 23/09/2021 - 01:03

Being certain races disadvantages you heavily in life. Even having a parent who is a certain race can disadvantage you. Affirmative action or whatever it's called helps offset some of that and is fine by me.
- Almost Banned on 23/09/2021 - 15:53
  
  Does it 'though?
  Exactly where?
  - AustriaBargain on 23/09/2021 - 16:23
    
    In towns that have more racism the disadvantage will be more pronounced.
KaTst3R on 23/09/2021 - 01:09

+3

It is ironic when one section says it supports diversity then another says African heritage applicants only. Every organisation has their own reasons to make such a selection criteria, regardless it is based on quantifiable stats or just experience. At least the post is upfront about it and not try to waste your time writing a cover letter, rocking up for an interview and still reject as their 1st requirement is not met.
raptormesh on 23/09/2021 - 02:02

+4

"Just asking questions". Seen this played out many many times. Hope you got your answer OP.
- cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 17:33
  
  +1
  
  I did. Quite interesting getting to know my fellow ozbs. I might have to go back into hiding after this. Lol
Cave Fire on 23/09/2021 - 02:04

+16

You just played yourself… it says "African heritage" and you have conflated that as meaning "being from an African race" (whatever that means). They want someone with an understanding of African culture and probably specific language skills. This person doesn't have to be from a certain race.
- pformag on 23/09/2021 - 13:23
  
  +8
  
  Trust me, they don't want a white South African
  - buckster on 23/09/2021 - 13:52
    
    How do you know, did you apply?
    - cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 17:43
      
      +2
      
      If we have to question it, then i think the answer is there already.
  - [Deactivated] on 23/09/2021 - 17:46
    
    +1
    
    I think you have a point. When you think of Africa, you think of "black".
- cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 17:40
  
  I think you're assuming meaning too. Just different to mine.
p1 ama on 23/09/2021 - 03:28

+27

This role is identified as available for African heritage applicants only. Confirmation of your African heritage may be requested.

This is a misguided discussion. African heritage is not a race / ethnicity, it is a cultural background.

It’s the same as Australian, American, French…etc.

In case you didn’t know, there are white people in Africa who would consider themselves to be of African heritage.

Also, OP, I don’t think you are being genuine in your empathy or concern. There will always be oddball cases where people are discriminatory. If you’re casting an actor for a film about Mandela, you’re not going to pick a Japanese guy.

The question is whether the issue is systemic, societal and widespread. Your entire argument (even if i grant you that African is a race) is silly. Unless there is someone out there who is so extremely passionate about helping African kids that they are fully qualified and specialised i’m the field and so well suited that they are being rejected purely because of their race, then you don’t have a point.

My guess is that this is such a niche that if such a person existed , they would already be in a similar role.
- trapper on 23/09/2021 - 13:40
  
  +4
  
  It’s the same as Australian, American, French…etc.
  
  If you saw a job add that said "Australian heritage applicants only" you would have no doubt that this was racist though.
  - p1 ama on 23/09/2021 - 15:51
    
    +7
    
    No, not at all. I'm Asian and I consider myself of Australian heritage.
    
    It is a different context to see that in Australia because the vast majority here are "of Australian heritage".
    
    If I was working in another country and there was an ad for a position that required someone "from Australia", e.g. let's say someone to advise on how to grow tourism or something, I don't know, then I think it would be perfectly fine.
[Deactivated] on 23/09/2021 - 04:12

+3

It's not discrimination if it is an essential requirement of the position, which it obviously is.
- tanksinatra on 23/09/2021 - 07:18
  
  +2
  
  It's still discrimination, it's just legal (and probably reasonable) discrimination.
[Deactivated] on 23/09/2021 - 07:49

+5

I wonder what the specific role in the government funded school is to necessitate African heritage. And if they could be so kind as to let us know which of the 50 countries in Africa background is needed for. And could they specify what race of African is needed (white,black,arab)?
If the government is going to be racist in their job posting they need to be super specific. My granddad was originally German or Austrian, but fought in the second Boer war and stayed there until emigrating to Australia around the time of the first world war. Is that enough African heritage?
- morse on 23/09/2021 - 08:17
  
  Context is key here do you have the ability to use your “own cultural and linguistic knowledge and skills to assit with school communication with families and the broader community”? So from your connection/heritage have you got good knowledge of cultural practices, language etc?
  
  African heritage is one requirement of the role, not the only one. If I was doing the recruitment I’d be looking for someone who has read the whole position description before applying at a minimum.
  - [Deactivated] on 23/09/2021 - 08:19
    
    +5
    
    But which of the 300+ African languages is the requirement? English is spoken in Africa.
    
    So they may want an African linguist with cultural knowledge, not just someone from Africa or with African heritage?
    
    It's like going to a restaurant and seeing an Oriental person cooking Italian cuisine. It depends on the education and knowledge, not the ancestry.
    - morse on 23/09/2021 - 09:49
      
      +3
      
      The meaning is fairly clear from the role description and the type of work they are doing. People who don’t get this are likely not to be suitable for the role regardless of their background.
morse on 23/09/2021 - 08:09

To clarify do you have the other necessary requirements for this role? eg qualifications in social work? Is the African heritage part actually the barrier for you or the other aspects of the role?
- cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 18:27
  
  My question isn't essentially about the role itself. But the job ad wasn't actually aligned with what I was searching on seek, sometimes I just like to read information and when I saw this, i questioned how I felt about it.
82norm on 23/09/2021 - 08:19

+5

Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander only roles have existed for some time now. Whilst I don’t always agree with it either, if it means giving opportunities to those minority groups a chance of meaningful employment and it perpetuates downstream to their families/communities with positive outcomes, then it can’t be a bad thing. I’m sure us White folks’ will survive.
- cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 18:37
  
  I hope you're not assuming my race. I agree moreso with the aboriginal and torres straight roles tho. They're given for a different reason, to assist that group of people with opportunities etc. I feel this is different tho.
paulx82 on 23/09/2021 - 08:25

the 'intellectual' AKA woke classes - in government and unis, etc. - have always been the most racist. no surprise that this is coming out of Victoria
- Hardlyworkin on 23/09/2021 - 10:35
  
  +7
  
  I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you haven't spent much time being involved either in a uni or some level of government?
- Autonomic on 23/09/2021 - 16:24
  
  +2
  
  I agree. Government is overwhelmingly white.
tallkid123 on 23/09/2021 - 09:26

If there were employment or educational benefits here in Australia for those of indigenous Pacific Islander heritage, I'd be applying for them all in a heartbeat. Ironically, that's how my dad ended up migrating to Australia in the first place.

But alas, I've had to rely on my uni qualifications and experience to get to my current role instead, haha.
TheBilly on 23/09/2021 - 09:34

There is that many jobs out there that I highly doubt the race criteria for this one was the reason nothing worked out.
afah0447 on 23/09/2021 - 09:51

When I was applying for graduate positions the ads always highlighted that certain groups would be looked favourable on.

Corporations like having certain groups on their books as employees, makes them look like good corporate citizens and ticks their diversity boxes. Been happening for years and will only ramp up in the future.
- cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 18:39
  
  Looked favourably on is very different to this. Imo ofcourse.
iridiumstem on 23/09/2021 - 09:53

+8

If it is for the support person, I feel like heritage option might be validated.

A person I know is from Asian culture and she had to change her psychologist because the cultural aspects of the familal issues weren't being addressed. Granted, I think it speaks about how shit some psychologists are more since they should have been trained better, but I digress.

The nuances of the culture is something that's hard to learn unless you have lived in it. Whether it is even possible for people to be trained from an outside perspective to learn those nuances is a question that I cannot answer. Whether that training will be perceived by the clients as suitable (and not perceived as say, disingenuous) is another question all together.

In the end, it's about the clients. I am a man therefore I won't get certain jobs even if I had the same training. Similiarly because I am a man, I may have options that open up.
The reasoning behind that could be many, but it's about the clients.
- Tangenyahu on 23/09/2021 - 15:30
  
  +4
  
  This.
  
  My therapist is a white Australian; while we get along and she tries hard to to empathise, there are just things about Asian culture that she just doesn't get, because it's not a lived experience, and she doesn't quite get why I say "that's not the done thing". She tries though.
  It doesn't matter if you've spent years doing uni, having a lived experience really is the key here, because kids especially, will identify with you. It's the same reason why diversity in media is so important.
  - cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 18:41
    
    +1
    
    But she had the OPTION to be your therapist. If the ad for her position as your therapist had made her heritage a condition of her being your therapist, she wouldn't have ever applied.
    - iridiumstem on 23/09/2021 - 19:14
      
      +2
      
      I think there would be more people who can choose their psychologists, and more than often they can discontinue whenever they want for whatever reason they want.
      
      The worst case scenario that could happen with a therapist is that the person who needs help completely withdraws. Either because they feel like it is going nowhere, they are not feeling the connection, etc etc. They see someone once, and go, I tried and it didn't work.
      
      More than not, people who are getting free help or those kind of help do not get the options that many people take for granted. You either see someone or you don't.
      
      So I think there are jobs that require that kind of information. You've seen that others have mentioned that there are exceptions to the law and I feel like there are situations where it may be valid to ask for your cultural backgrounds and your history.
      
      That said, I am going to add, you clearly are coming from a perspective that they should not ask heritage as an option. Who knows, maybe they are asking for something arbitray that should not be asked, maybe there are special cases where these informations are necessary and the job you saw falls under that.
LPV569 on 23/09/2021 - 10:05

+4

To have been born in a wonderful country such as Australia with all its social, economic and environmental opportunities is something that some could take for granted. To understand the horrific situations others born into war torn impoverished countries experience I can’t imagine. The obstacles and challenges those individuals have from their first breath is beyond what I due to being born in a wonderful country like Australia can imagine.
Therefore I am a supportive of positive discrimination to give those that are severely disadvantaged an opportunity to step up to the same playing field as me.
rumchaser on 23/09/2021 - 10:10

+2

The only stipulation you can't get away with is asking for a white person .
Thats classed as racist
- morse on 23/09/2021 - 10:33
  
  And yet this stipulation is commonly used both consciously and unconsciously.
- buckster on 23/09/2021 - 13:53
  
  +5
  
  How often though would a job in Australia be only suitable to a white person?
  - rumchaser on 24/09/2021 - 11:25
    
    -1
    
    Well depends if you want a good work ethic or not .
    Point is you can't ask for it yet you can for others .
    - maxyzee on 24/09/2021 - 15:58
      
      Please elaborate on what’s meant by “a good work ethic”.
magpuy on 23/09/2021 - 11:16

+4

Do the posters of that advert honestly have no clue that to refer to "African" anything is to refer to an entire continent, with many countries, tribes, and communities.

My wife is African by heritage, she can trace her family line in Africa back over centuries. In South Africa (the country at the southern end of the African continent) she was racially classified WHITE.

This looks like trying to not appear racially biased, while clumsily applying racial biase. If they need someone who understands a particular community or culture, why not explain that need and then describe the features that will address that need (and be more precise than "African").
- morse on 23/09/2021 - 11:29
  
  +2
  
  Looks like the advertisement has been taken down, but if you read the full advertisement it specifies South East Africa and also mentions that the person should have and understanding of culture and language from their own experience - sure it's like that the person will only have knowledge of one or two African languages and cultures, but it's not as generic as just stating 'African heritage'. I further specifies how that cultural knowledge would be used as part of the role.
- D3HUN on 23/09/2021 - 13:31
  
  +1
  
  Ha, just posted about the same. The ad is just ignorant and discriminatory.
morse on 23/09/2021 - 11:34

+2

Looks like the job ad has been taken down. Now a program that clearly had a specific need for someone with cultural, language and other skills/knowledge to support students and the community will have a recruitment delay. Well done OP…. I can't see how one less job (which you weren't qualified for irrespective of heritage) on the market is helping your or others situation.
- cookie2 on 23/09/2021 - 19:28
  
  +2
  
  Do you think they're changing the job description? Why lay blame on an individual? I didn't write the ad. Didn't make a complaint. I'm just a person speaking their mind and questioning something on a community forum. The blame game can go on forever if you want it to.

African Heritage as a Condition of Employment

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