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[NSW] Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus $59,473 (Was $62,473) Delivered after $3000 NSW Rebate and $0 Stamp Duty @ Tesla

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[NSW] Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus $59,473 (Was $62,473) Delivered after $3000 NSW Rebate and $0 Stamp Duty @ Tesla
Go to Deal
MSG on 20/06/2021 - 10:21 tesla.com (13479 clicks)
Last edited 10/07/2021 - 13:18 by 2 other users

Current drive away price of Tesla Model 3 SR+ $67,798

NSW Government Electric Vehicle Offer

  • Waived Stamp Duty $2,325
  • EV Rebate $3,000

Drive Away price from 1 September $62,473 $59,473

$2,621 cheaper than VIC after rebates, with no EV road tax for six years or until new EVs made up 30% of new car sales.

EDIT: Through the Tesla Corporate Program, delivery fee is waived (save $1375) = $61,098 $58,098 drive away

The New South Wales government will waive stamp duty on electric vehicle purchases and provide subsidies for 25,000 new purchases as part of a $490m strategy to drive uptake of EVs.

Under the plan announced on Sunday, people buying battery and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles priced under $78,000 from 1 September will pay no stamp duty, and $3,000 rebates will be available on the same day for the first 25,000 private purchases of electric vehicles priced under $68,750.

Source

Enjoy!

Referral Links

Referral: random (781)

Referee gets $350 off Model Y & 3 purchase.

Referrer gets $175 credit toward Supercharging, software upgrades, merchandise, service payments or a new vehicle. Limit of 10 referral benefits per calendar year.

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closed Comments

  • ce5himm on 20/06/2021 - 10:23
    +41

    So QLD, what are you waiting for?

    • mgf909 on 20/06/2021 - 10:26
      +211

      Black coal version

      • solidussnake on 20/06/2021 - 10:30
        +6

        Wouldn't alot of owners have their own solar to charge up on the weekend ?

        • dtpearson on 20/06/2021 - 10:58
          +86

          Yep, thats what I do, almost all of my charging is from solar. Tesla M3P, faster than most lambos and runs on sunshine.

          OK, it wasn't a cheap car, but its the best thing I have ever bought. I just don't get the online hate for EVs, and the negative misinformation about them is just nuts.

          • bakemon0 on 20/06/2021 - 11:08
            +31

            @dtpearson: imagine you've grown with something your whole life, maybe even fallen in love with it, you've learned the system inside out, you've studied it for years and now everyone's saying that system's obsolete and we should just go to a new one, that's their perspective. I'm not one of those people but that's how they see it

            they can't argue that ICE is cleaner or more efficient or faster so they pick apart the manufacturing process, and the cheap materials and the misaligned panels.

            and that's just on the personal side of things, some manufacturers aren't big enough to r&d electric and the move would probably kill them.

            that's just my .02

            • ripprind on 20/06/2021 - 12:44
              +3

              @bakemon0: no need to find details to pick on.
              EV is currently on par with nuclear power. It's squeaky clean if you dont mind the unresolved recycling tail of things đź‘Ś

          • sharkfan12 on 20/06/2021 - 11:09
            +25

            @dtpearson: We don't need EVs.
            We have have legal E-Scooters

          • Nomoneynotalk on 20/06/2021 - 11:46

            @dtpearson: Is that faster in a straight line drag or faster everywhere including going around corners? What is the handling like?

          • daft009 on 20/06/2021 - 12:24
            +2

            @dtpearson: i passed on one… jsut couldnt handle not having a tight interface like android auto for phones.
            its quite basic their mobile integration

            • dtpearson on 20/06/2021 - 13:17
              +5

              @daft009: I was really worried about no CarPlay, but you just don't need it, the OEM system is just decades ahead of other manufacturers system. The only thing I wish it had is Waze.

              • daft009 on 20/06/2021 - 14:33
                +2

                @dtpearson: i asked if I could reply to a whatsapp message with my voice, they said no.. only sms.
                I asked about youtube music, they said no only spotify
                i asked about podcasts but was told yes via tunein but could not resume

                agreed the interface is awesome and can do lots.. but for my day to day needs it was quite a few steps backwards.. only in mobile integration.

                I still want to buy an EV.. perhaps in another 4-5yrs when VW comes out with their EVs in AU

                • DisasterArea on 20/06/2021 - 15:51

                  @daft009: Here's an idea for you…. use your phone and still do all those things? Doesn't take away from the car at all.

                • leoorange3107 on 21/06/2021 - 00:12

                  @daft009: You can buy EQA, a bit more expensive

                • apiecost on 23/06/2021 - 12:23
                  +1

                  @daft009: Podcasts yes via Spotify built in. Unfortunately there's no app store or ecosystem yet so a few gaps in obvious services, so you have to pair a phone to do that stuff. Personally I wish audiobook support was better, but hey, it's still ridiculously better than anything I've ever had.

            • billdsl on 21/06/2021 - 09:15
              +1

              @daft009: thats a good point, id never buy a vehicle that doesnt have the mobile integrations available through android auto/car play, its brilliant

          • whyisave on 20/06/2021 - 12:25
            +2

            @dtpearson: Genuine curiousities:

            • given the EV range, what is the logistics of a drive from Sydney to Melbourne?
              ( how long does it take to charge? is load a factor? weather a factor?
              can the EV "auto drive" on that Hume Highway? )

            • what are the kind of maintenance costs?
              must it only go back to Tesla?
              is it a subscription model?

            • what is the action plan for extending the battery life?
              does it get swapped out later?
              what is the resale value of an EV ?

            I want to look at owning an EV,
            but I wish there is more choice, other than Tesla,
            and if it was only to be a Tesla,
            then I wish they made a smaller EV (without sacrificing battery capacity)

            • ibuy on 20/06/2021 - 12:50
              +4

              @whyisave: Both Nissan and Toyota offer electric and/or hybrid cars.

              Nissan Leaf
              Toyota Prius
              Toyota Camry hybrid

              Ford has a hybrid - Ford Escape

              Volvo is said to go all electric soon

              Mercedes and BMW are coming out with electric cars as well.

              • zemphism on 20/06/2021 - 17:55

                @ibuy: I seen a MG and a Merc charging the other day at ikea in Brisbane

                • ctg on 21/06/2021 - 23:18

                  @zemphism: *saw

                  • zemphism on 25/06/2021 - 18:06
                    +2

                    @ctg: I wasn’t cutting anything at the time I seen them

              • whyisave on 20/06/2021 - 22:19

                @ibuy: thanks for that list of EVs (and Hybrids).

                i guess the appeal of Tesla is also the software, eg. 'self driving'.

                • FeRGan on 21/06/2021 - 21:33

                  @whyisave: I think it's more like semi-self driving. I read about one going into a brick wall and killing the driver, so I am still a little skeptical about it being full fledged

                  • whyisave on 22/06/2021 - 00:11

                    @FeRGan: i read that there are 2 software modes,
                    where 1 is for 'assisted' driving,
                    and the Fully Self Driving [FSD] has not been launched in AU yet.

                    • apiecost on 23/06/2021 - 12:29
                      +1

                      @whyisave:

                      1. You have 'normal' cruise control with adaptive features (if a car in front of you is slow or stops, your car slows down too, and will even stop and wait behind it and then go again)

                      2. Then there's 'Autopilot' which comes standard and builds on that by also keeping you centered in the lane and taking a bit of the effort out of longer distance driving. Even though your hands are on the wheel it mentally feels like less effort and makes long trips less tiring.

                      3. Then the paid 'Full Self Driving' is heavily a beta product and more or less a proof of concept with some features functional and others not yet available, but is available in Australia now. The "new" FSD has thousands of testers in the USA and is slowly being widened. Rest of the world might see it this year I feel. What you're really paying for is what this will be like in the future, if you believe it will come to fruition.

                      • whyisave on 23/06/2021 - 12:43

                        @apiecost: Thank you for your clear summary of what's available.

                        I believe, the FSD will come to fruition,
                        however there could be some adjustments made to roads / signage too,
                        or some kind of protocol where different vendors/manufacturers can talk to each other,
                        to avoid collision, negotiate speeds, overtaking, etc.

                        I read that one obstacle to FSD is that lawmakers, councils, etc…
                        don't like the idea of software that won't break the law,
                        ie. it won't trigger speeding fines because an obedient software won't generate revenue if there are less fines !

                        • apiecost on 23/06/2021 - 12:45
                          +1

                          @whyisave: I believe it will too, but it doesn't pay to be too enthusiastic on a forum where everyone is an AI and machine vision expert :)

              • leiiv on 01/09/2021 - 21:08

                @ibuy: But one huge difference with Tesla is that you don't have to deal with the dealers. Is there any other cars that you can buy direct?

            • dtpearson on 20/06/2021 - 13:15
              +12

              @whyisave: Sydney to Melb is easy with supercharger network, you have to stop for 15-25min every 4-5 hours, which you should really do anyway. Load is not a factor, but rain and headwind can use a bit more charge. Teslas Autopilot is awesome on highways.

              Maintenance is tyres and refill the windscreen washer. No mandated scheduled servicing.

              Battery life is pretty huge now, pretty much the life of the car with normal use.

              Agree with you about wanting more choice. We really need a $25k VW Golf size car and a $40-50k dual cab ute and a $40k people mover. The Chinese manufacturers will get this done, NIO is really pushing the envelope over there.

            • SirDale on 20/06/2021 - 14:52
              +7

              @whyisave: "what are the kind of maintenance costs?"

              Almost zero. You have to change the brake fluid every year or so, but brake pads don't get used much (depending on driving - regen sucks up a lot of the energy that would otherwise be dumped as heat).

              Tyres (possibly less, depends on driving style).
              Windscreen wipers.
              Windscreen washer fluids.

              And that's about it.

              (currently own a Leaf).

            • BlinkyBill on 20/06/2021 - 22:48
              +1

              @whyisave: Enter destination address in to Tesla nav and it will tell you where to stop and for how long. More advanced version is call a better route planner (google it)

              The rest you can google.

            • xylarr on 22/06/2021 - 12:15
              +5

              @whyisave: Sydney to Melbourne - just use the superchargers. If you stop every two hours or so, it will take 15-20 minutes charging to get to the next stop. In practice, you spend more time in the toilet and getting some food than waiting in the car for charging. Ultimately sure, it is a little slower than if you stormed straight through and only filled up, but if you're willing to back off slightly in your expectations, it is no problem.
              I've personally driven from Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Cairns in my Model 3 SR+. I wasn't in a rush. Most of that distance was done with auto-steer engaged. I've also driven autosteer in a BMW X3 - similar, not quite as accomplished. But with both systems you come to realise how much mental energy you give to steering as opposed to monitoring the steering. You arrive more relaxed.

              I've had my Tesla since late September 2019 - coming up to two years. I've had no maintenance as such. I have taken it back to get some panel fitment issues fixed - the current cars are apparently much better than the early ones. I had a headrest replaced because it bubbled. I've ordered some new cabin air filters (2x$28) and will fit them myself. Total distance travelled 32000km. The only other thing coming up will be brake fluid and then tires.

              Tesla don't offer a battery swap. Battery degradation really isn't a thing - they should last the life of the vehicle - i.e. no problem getting 500k km. If you're truly worried about the battery, get one with the bigger battery. If you do the majority of your driving around town and you can charge at home, you never really worry about range. Yeah, right now, I wouldn't really consider an electric car unless you can charge at home. If you live in an apartment or only have street parking, I would wait a bit.

              Resale - can't say. Some say Teslas have good resale, but frankly, I wouldn't necessarily bank on that. I'm pretty much of the opinion than all cars decline at pretty much the same rate. One thing going for the Teslas is because the software for everything (they updated the ABS once) is done over the air. So a 2nd hand Tesla will have exactly the same software as a new one - hardware changes notwithstanding.

              More competition is good. In a few years there will be far more choices.

              • whyisave on 22/06/2021 - 14:12

                @xylarr: Great reply.
                Thank You.
                I totally understand everything you've said.

                PS:
                My car does 1000+ km on a full tank (ie. 4.5 litre / 100km ! but dirty diesel fuel )

                so SYD-MEL in 1 uninterrupted drive, without re-fuelling,
                means saving that 30-minute petrol station stop. Ha !

                Still, I like what you've written and once these EVs are around AU$ 40K
                AND they come in a smaller body-shape (Eg. Chevrolet Bolt EV) , I would take the plunge.

                BYD is cheaper now, than a Tesla.
                However, I prefer Tesla software than Chinese BYD (which I know nothing about).

                • SeVeN11 on 22/06/2021 - 16:00

                  @whyisave: How do you know you prefer tesla software if you haven't even looked at that bud software?

                  • whyisave on 22/06/2021 - 16:03

                    @SeVeN11: I already know what the Tesla software can do and their 'regular' updates.
                    WIth BYD being Chinese owned, there is some fear because of that.

                • Techie4066 on 10/07/2021 - 16:48
                  +1

                  @whyisave: There is a $40K EV in a Chevy Bolt size - the MG ZS EV. I personally am not interested until a European or decent Japanese brand offers something similar.

                  Perhaps Renault will import discount Dacia EVs down the track.

                  • whyisave on 11/07/2021 - 15:34
                    +1

                    @Techie4066: for me, comparing EVs has pretty much come down to software,
                    because beyond what they achieve as a electric vehicle,
                    it's the software that sets them apart & the Tesla software is pretty good.

                    then again, I would not like to link a foreign-"owned" car to my personal name, my movements (GPS),
                    my driving style (!), conversations I have in my car, etc..
                    …but that's the future that we're heading into :-\

              • kzrocky on 01/09/2021 - 20:34

                @xylarr: Battery degradation is real, why does Tesla only guarantee for 8 years? Also, their Powerwall used to have a limited warranty until the opposition said lifetime, so Tesla copied suit miraculously.
                You will have maintenance, i.e. tyres, grease the door latches, wheel bearings, suspension, sunroof, steering linkage.
                Sure, you will have less engine maintenance than a combustion engine, but your electric engines will at some stage need either new parts or get replaced. Much like a modern day washing machine, it becomes too expensive to repair, so you just replace and then those parts become landfill.

                That said, theres not much future for fossil fuel cars. Electric is or will be better for most.

            • [Deactivated] on 01/09/2021 - 21:06
              +1

              @whyisave: Wait for Kia EV6

          • Cheeper on 20/06/2021 - 12:33
            +2

            @dtpearson: "Tesla M3P, faster than most lambos"
            Get to the next traffic light first… !! Wow, where do I buy one.

            • ACTGBilly on 20/06/2021 - 13:15

              @Cheeper: And gain energy from the Stop/Start (vs ICE). So it’s win-win.

            • seedyrom on 20/06/2021 - 15:25
              +1

              @Cheeper: Yeah, I reckon after the first 2 launches the novelty would have worn off.

              This is coming from someone who turbo charged his 5.7L V8 and had all the go-fast additions. Was an impressive car … but you just couldn’t use the damn thing to its potential.

              • Zippy7 on 20/06/2021 - 21:15

                @seedyrom: Haha.
                I had a Clubsport R8.
                The novelty does wear off, but… it was still loads of fun when you had it (I really miss mine)
                I'd seriously think about a Tesla one day.
                Maybe not today :)

          • 8200 on 20/06/2021 - 20:32

            @dtpearson: ICE are dead, Euro7 laws will kill them

            I think Australia should have pushed LPG more, our own fuel, not imported, cheap and centuries of supply, cleaner than ULP and diesel

            I would be interested in a 1 tonne van with a EV range of say 500km loaded and towing ability

            • 1st-Amendment on 21/06/2021 - 09:18

              @8200:

              ICE are dead, Euro7 laws will kill them

              If you look at every ICE application globally you will find that inner city passenger cars are a tiny fraction of use cases.
              ICE will be around for a long time, even a large uptake of EV's in the cities will not make a big dent overall.

            • xylarr on 22/06/2021 - 12:16

              @8200: Apparently Fords new electric F150 will cover that.

          • cristobaljamesy on 21/06/2021 - 00:05

            @dtpearson: May I ask if you have a 5kw inverter on your solar and if that's the case have you been able to find a way to slow down (for lack of a better term) the charging speed to what you currently produce via solar?

            I would like to use closer to 100% of renewable energy to charge an electric vehicle but I've since learnt that the basic wall charger draws between 8-10 kwph which is way higher than what I produce from my solar.

            • Joku on 21/06/2021 - 11:32

              @cristobaljamesy: Yeah that sort of option is a pre-requisite for me buying an EV. Ideally this thing should be a smart feature that avoids pulling from the grid, but anything that allows you to set a daylight charging time window and some different charging rates would be a good enough start.

              • xylarr on 22/06/2021 - 12:18
                +1

                @Joku: Remember that on vehicle emissions, even if you charge from the dirtiest Victorian electricity, the efficiency of electric drive trains means you emit less than a petrol driven car. A hybrid may beat it, but it's close.
                But the grid is improving all the time. And of course, if you have solar and can time your charging, even better.

            • chuq on 24/06/2021 - 15:00

              @cristobaljamesy: There are a couple of ways of doing that.

              One is in the car itself (you can schedule a "start charging" time) and some models let you set the rate to whatever you want (e.g. my Leaf doesn't, but the Teslas do)

              The other method is to use a wall charger that is specifically designed to monitor how much solar you are exporting and divert precisely that amount to the car instead. i.e. it can be charging at a consistent speed, but then if cloud cover comes over, or you start using more power hungry appliances in the house, the charge rate will decrease automatically. The most common product like this is the Zappi by a company called Myenergi if you want to look it up, it works with all EVs.

            • deaj on 01/09/2021 - 11:55

              @cristobaljamesy: Yes, you can 'dial down' the charge rate from the car so it's only pulling down the energy you're getting from your solar panels.

              • cristobaljamesy on 01/09/2021 - 12:15

                @deaj: That's very interesting, one can do that on the actual settings of the vehicle?

          • djmm on 01/09/2021 - 20:12

            @dtpearson: It doesn't have nice exhaust note though

      • timmy2000 on 20/06/2021 - 10:44
        +7

        It ain't coal if you can't see the smoke coming out of your exhaust ;)

      • nexus4 on 20/06/2021 - 10:53
        +16

        If you charge your electric car at home through the grid (and don't pay extra for renewable energy) it's likely that it is in fact powered by coal…

        • CookieJacker31 on 20/06/2021 - 10:58
          -4

          Even if you do pay for green power it is still coal, the grid doesn't separate the electrons.

          • Boogerman on 20/06/2021 - 12:11

            @CookieJacker31: You can’t know that for sure, since you want to be pedantic

            • This Guy on 20/06/2021 - 14:20
              +5

              @Boogerman: https://www.aemo.com.au/aemo/apps/visualisations/map.html

              Click

              • Electricity Network

              • Transmission Infrastructure

              • Transmission Lines

              • Generation Infrastructure

              • Power Stations

              You will notice the transmission network connects the coal plants to the solar plants.

              Or I can sell you the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

              • Boogerman on 20/06/2021 - 17:18
                +6

                @This Guy: So wind & solar borne electrons could be going to One Nation voting households.
                Better hide their kitchen knives & razor blades…

          • timmy2000 on 20/06/2021 - 14:47
            +1

            @CookieJacker31: That's right. Like money, electricity is fungible

        • UFO on 20/06/2021 - 11:01
          +38

          But even then, for the power you require to charge the vehicle it's still less polluting than burning petrol in a combustion engine.

          I've never understood the argument you raise… it's pointless.

          • Boogerman on 20/06/2021 - 12:11
            +1

            @UFO: They’re simple people

          • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 12:16
            -4

            @UFO: Are you saying burning coal to power the car is less polluting than burning petrol in the car?

            • team teri on 20/06/2021 - 12:22
              +15

              @Dalton: It actually is. A lot. Read up on it.

              Hints: efficiency of EV motors vs ICE. Ease of cleaning up emissions from one big smokestack compared to thousands of tailpipes. Location of where those emissions are created.

              • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 12:33
                +7

                @team teri: I have just read up on it and I learned that here in Australia we generate about 90% of our electricity from fossil fuel; primarily coal, but also gas and some oil.

                Because of their batteries, Tesla cars are heavier, meaning they take more energy to move. Also, transporting electricity through the grid is a lossy process, so burning fuel in the engine is far, far more efficient than burning it then transmitting it.

                I can't find any good references to removing emmisons from smoke stacks.

                All references to the cars having lower emmisons seem to be dependant on the electricity source. No one is saying that electric cars are less polluting than ICE cars in Australia.

                Unless you have home solar and charge during the day, the best you can say is that these cars contribute less than to pollution in our metropolitan areas.

                Otherwise, these cars are contributing to CO2 emmisons in Australia.

                • tehsnrub on 20/06/2021 - 12:53
                  +6

                  @Dalton: It's closer to 70/30 these days. It's hard to keep up with the data and I'm constantly waiting on the new CSIRO & AEMO reports to drop.
                  There is exponential growth in renewables, which is great to see, and battery storage overtook pumped hydro this year for cheapest capital.

                  Source of 70/30 -
                  https://opennem.org.au/energy/au/?range=all-12-mth-rolling&i…

                  Change first chart, LHS top, to Proportion
                  Enable emissions toggle in bottom right settings button (left of twitter icon)
                  Change table, on RHS, to Fossil/Renewable

                  • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 13:08
                    +3

                    @tehsnrub: Nice resource, thanks.

                    Do they do a day v. night comparison as many people will charge at night.

                    To be clear, I'm not saying that Tesla cars can't produce less CO2 than ICE cars, but we're not there for most use cases in Australia. That means these cars will contribute to the CO2 problem.

                    It would be great if we knew at what point we need to get to in modern electrical generatoin and storage before these cars are less polluting than ICE cars, for the average consumer.

                    Party on that day.

                    • tehsnrub on 20/06/2021 - 13:21
                      +1

                      @Dalton: yeah they have heaps of information, just play around.

                      This shows the day/night cycling over 7 days for the country.
                      https://opennem.org.au/energy/au/?range=7d&interval=30m

                      You're right about night charging in most states, when there is no wind. Day charging is the best and would help stabilise the grid in states that have high penetration of solar e.g. WA, that has frequency issues in spring/autumn

                      I'm looking at free destination charge points for work and trying to bring in the real-time energy mix in order to reduce the carbon footprint of that charge point. Basically - if the CO2e/MWh exceeds a certain amount it won't charge… but that comes with issues of expectations from the users.

                      It would be nice to expose this information to consumers so they can program in a decision to their charge points.

                      *added:
                      interesting study of breakeven emissions in EVs. Australia is in the 50-75% window shown in the results from the Monte Carlo simulation
                      https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/9/5195

                • Boogerman on 20/06/2021 - 13:12
                  +2

                  @Dalton: You’ve forgotten about airborne carcinogens from fossil fuel cars
                  Since a conservative’s world is defined by money & economics, it’s worth considering the cumulative billion$ in health care costs of carcinogens & pollutants, for the last hundred years odd of automotive existence

                  • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 13:17
                    +1

                    @Boogerman: You're right, the equation gets pretty big once you start adding in all factors.

                • ubcool on 20/06/2021 - 14:17
                  +6

                  @Dalton: lol im pretty sure sending electricity through the grid is far less polluting than sucking oil from beneath the sea , sended it thousands of miles on a polluting oil tanker. then refining in a polluting refinery, then driven hundreds of miles in a polluting tanker truck, then running a polluting gas station… sure in Australia EVs are not as GREEN as in other countries but they are still far less polluting than petrol cars, this is a fact.

                  • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 14:34
                    +2

                    @ubcool: I don't have any statistics on this, but the volume of oil moved less the affects per unit of energy.

                    In America, electricity transmission losses account for 5% of consumption. That might be slightly higher here. That's a pretty big number. Fossil fuels are enormously calorificly dense, so while you put a lot of energy into production (all the things you mention) you get a large amount of usable energy at the end of the process.

                    I'm not fosil fuel friendly, but these Tesla cars are a wolf in sheep's clothing here in Australia.

                    Generation of electricity is the main thing we need to get right.

                    • ubcool on 20/06/2021 - 19:25
                      +2

                      @Dalton: 'i don't have any statistics' 'i read it some articles' lol they maybe more polluting than some people think but they are still far less polluting than petrol cars end of story.

                      • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 21:30
                        +1

                        @ubcool: Just reread my reply and that first paragraph doesn't make sense. Typing on my phone.

                        I meant to say that while all the factors you mention are big users of energy when making petrol, the end product is so energy dense that it makes the amount of energy used in production not as bad as you might think. I still can't find an exact number, but it looks like about 15% wasted. Keeping in mind that the 5% transmission losses for electricity are just one way energy is consumed in the production of electricity.

                        So, from my reading, it looks like your assertion that oil production is far more lossy than electricity generation, is not accurate.

                        Happy to be proved wrong.

                • SirDale on 20/06/2021 - 14:56

                  @Dalton: "No one is saying that electric cars are less polluting than ICE cars in Australia."

                  Yeah, no one…

                  https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/electric-vehicles/buying/should-i-buy-an-ev
                  • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 15:01

                    @SirDale: That article says that the emissions at the car are almost nothing but 'Their emissions are primarily determined by the upstream emissions: that is, from the production and distribution of the energy used to charge them.'"

                    I'm not sure that proves your point. But Team Teri makes some good points.

                • xylarr on 22/06/2021 - 12:21
                  +1

                  @Dalton: Even with transmission losses, even with charging losses, even if generated from 100% brown coal, electric cars are STILL less dirty from a CO2 point of view than petrol cars.
                  But for arguments sake say that it wasn't. It is still better than the emissions happen away from people in a city - the health benefits are better even if you question the environment benefits.

                  • Dalton on 22/06/2021 - 12:23
                    +1

                    @xylarr: Team Teri gives a good analysis of the maths on CO2 emissions, below. I still think this equation is a simplification, and that Tesla cars are not less CO2 emitting for all use cases. But I have no problem with people buying the car because they like it for other reasons.

                    In your comment, you are getting dangerously close to conflating CO2 emissions with environmental impact generally. The overall environmental impact of the car is a whole different kettle of fish.

                • chuq on 24/06/2021 - 16:24
                  +1

                  @Dalton: I'm not sure where you got this information from, but the basis of this efficiency claim is rubbish.

                  EVs are heavier - but their motors are significantly more efficient. An entry level Tesla battery with its 350 km range has the equivalent of something like a 6 litre petrol tank. They use significantly less energy to move overall, because in a combustion engine car most of that energy is wasted. Transmitting electricity through the grid is lossy, but only a tiny amount compared to the losses for petrol. The overall well to wheel efficiency for petrol is something like 15%, compared to 75% for battery electric.

                  • Dalton on 25/06/2021 - 11:37

                    @chuq: I hadn't heard the term 'well to wheel' before. It looks like the research done under that banner is interesting and concise. Your interpretation of the data seems somewhat problematic, though, with your quoted wheel efficiency percentage appearing to be at the lower end of the range for I.C.E. vehicles, and at the upper end for electric vehicles. That's what I've read, at least, you may have more up-to-date data to share.

                    I started by asking if electric cars were less polluting than electric cars. The answer appears to be that they are less polluting, locally at least, and they produce less CO2 emissions than petrol cars. But there are factors that reduce those benefits and the total reduction in CO2 over the life of the car is complicated to estimate. It appears that in some use cases an electric car won't realise a CO2 reduction over a similarly sized I.C.E vehicle over its lifetime.

                • Rally Dave on 01/09/2021 - 15:15

                  @Dalton: Oh you poor thing. Those old newspapers you are reading are a bit out of date. A lot more of our grid is renewable and it is increasing all the time as it has become cheaper than fossil fuels. Even in 100% coal, taking into account manufacturing and disposal, whole life studies are now showing that not only do they produce far less carbon emissions, they are also cheaper to own (and that is with paying a higher price for an EV which is slowly reducing).
                  How are some people going to cope when they start taking more about hydrogen that will most likely replace a lot of larger vehicle energy storage.

                  • Dalton on 01/09/2021 - 17:45

                    @Rally Dave: Hi Rally, 'a lot more…', 'studies', 'slowly reducing prices'. Come on man, if you're going to join the argument two months after the fact, at least bring something new to the table.

            • Dsiee on 20/06/2021 - 12:28
              +3

              @Dalton: Yes, it is. It is an interesting calculation to do but ends up with numerous steps.

              This is because of the efficiency of large power stations that don't have worry about weight like a care ICE and the fact that electric motors are very efficient.

              Even charging a Tesla with a generator is often better than an ICE car as the gen runs at much closer to optimal RPM for maximum efficiency.

              • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 12:45
                -1

                @Dsiee: Thanks,

                Power stations are lossy through electricity transmission.

                Coal, which is used to generate 75% of our electricity, creates more CO2 than petrol.

                If you consider these two factors, and then add in the extra weight of the Tesla car, the Tesla doesn't come out looking good. Someone linked to an article in an American paper that says this.

                There will be a point where coal generation reduces and these cars are better (CO2 wise) but we are a long way from that here.

                The generator in the car you speak of is similar to what a CVT transmission is trying to do; keep the car running with in its ideal rev range. Tesla cars don't have a generator, if they did they would be less polluting than they are, at least here in Australia.

                • ubcool on 20/06/2021 - 14:28
                  +1

                  @Dalton: whats the weight of a barrel of crude oil Dalton? because the average petrol driver is shipping 2 of them halfway around the planet every month to drive their car.

                  • Dalton on 20/06/2021 - 14:44
                    +1

                    @ubcool: I'm not an expert (in anything). I know a bit about electricity generation and transmission. I love the natural environment and am concerned about many of the things we're doing to it, not just the putting of CO2 into our atmosphere.

                    I do not know that a gallon of crude doesn't equal a gallon of petrol (to use the common unit).

                    Every technological solution has downsides. Coal fired electricity was once seen as a solution for fuel burning (for cooking) in metropolitan areas.

                    One day, our children will look at the Tesla and wonder what we were thinking.

                • team teri on 20/06/2021 - 14:53
                  +13

                  @Dalton: It's not too hard to do the calculation yourself.

                  If a Tesla uses 15kWh for 100km it will, charged from the current dirty coal based Australian grid, be responsible for just under 10kg of CO2 (2020 carbon intensity was 650g / 1kWh).

                  1l of petrol turns into 2.3kg of CO2, that would mean that Tesla is equivalent to an ICE that consumes 4.3l of petrol per 100km. Very few cars do that, most still consume 6, 7, 8l for a similar sized vehicle.

                  The grid will improve over time, that means the Tesla will run cleaner every single year. If you buy a new ICE today you lock in those high emissions for the life of the vehicle.

                  As an EV owner you also have a choice. You can charge from your own solar. You can pay extra to buy renewable power.

            • Boogerman on 20/06/2021 - 13:06
              +3

              @Dalton: Debunked a looong time ago.
              Make sure you also factor in the entire product life cycle, such as oil extraction & conversion to fuel

          • whyisave on 20/06/2021 - 12:31

            @UFO: many aspects of the industrial process is a polluting one,
            eg. all the machinery that is used to extract iron ore, lithium, copper, etc. etc.
            all the steel-making overseas, the ships that carry cargo, etc.

            eventually, every component of human life needs to be replaced with a NON polluting way,
            and that will increase energy consumption so much that, maybe a nuclear-option must be looked at,
            but that has its own risk that people also don't like.

            in fact, human existence has a 'cost' to the environment
            and is always in conflict with the environment, unless we collectively limit our desires,
            because people can feel high & mighty about owning an EV,
            but then use toilet paper (from trees) and every component from oil (ie. plastics which end up polluting the planet),
            so EV is only 1 part of a complex jigsaw about pollution / environment.

            maybe owning an EV + no toilet papers ever + hemp clothing + less meats + only 1 flight a year + quotas on fish consumption , etc. ha !

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