Would love to buy new car next year, but the choice of affordable EV in Oz is non existence.
So I am keeping my 14yo car for time being.
Agree with the article below:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-30/nissan-says-australia…
Anyone Delaying Upgrading New Car Due to Lack of Affordable EV?
punter1 on 30/05/2021 - 11:24
Comments
The economics don't necessarily make sense:
Tesla model 3: $63k new
Corolla Hybrid Sedan: $33k new
Difference over 10 years. If you are travelling 12k/km per year is fuel at 42L tank x $1.50/L, 1k/km per tank. $756 per year. Plus you have annual service I assume $400 per year.
+$8k in fuel
+$4k in servicingThrow the rest of the money into carbon offsets and you'll be way ahead.
I don't think you can just do a straight comparison like that, they are two completely different types of car. However from a pure economics perspective I can see your point.
Two different types in what way?
Sure it goes 0-100 faster but it still gets you from A to B.
@tongu: 260km is plenty for inner city travel. You don’t need 400+km of range when you only travel 50km per day and can charge every night.
Except for holidays, our second vehicle would comfortably survive with 200km of range. On the odd occasion it needs more, just swap cars for the day.
@netjock: They're two entirely different types of car. It's like saying why buy a Lamborghini when you can buy a Ford instead, they're both going to get you to the same place.
@BargnHuntr: .
Maybe the "average" family with 2 kids & dog needs two cars:
1 - EV Hatch 2WD: to do all the small drives with some pep with cheap (solar) electricity
2 - Diesel Ute 4WD: for the heavy lifting and long haul drives@Kangal: This, except you cna have a beater for the second car and you won't care if you hardly drive long distances. Otherwise buy yourself and older statesman or a sports car that will appreciate, and you have the perfect scenario
@Gotchas: Horse and carriage has 4 wheels but also at least 4 legs. That is 4 legs more than Model 3, Corolla, Lambo or a Ford.
Your username checks out.
Your EV will need to be charged often so add in the cost of electricity.
They also require servicing.
A Corolla can be serviced for a lot less than $400. Basically only needs oil & filter.I was just trying to be conservative and stack it against the ICE so they have no leg to stand on
@Euphemistic: That explains why they sell so many Corollas. (It isn't the cheapest car in the world)
Even for a rich person to buy a nice car it is about economics. You can't buy with money you can't have. Those that do are just asking for trouble.
A Corolla can be serviced for a lot less than $400. Basically only needs oil & filter.
Most people who buy a Corolla would take it to a dealer, who would find more to do in a service than oil & filter…
Corolla Hybrid
Hybrid
Service is neded as with any ICE
Fuel is needed as with any ICE
Ain't an EVApples to apples.
Already included
They're not really in the same league though. It's like F16 vs Cessna.
You don't get cost ratio.
F16: $64m
Cessna Citation business jet: $4.5m - $21m
The model 3 is twice the price of Corolla.
The F16 is 3 times the price of Cessna Citation but only 1 seat vs 6 on the Citation. You might also want to check the running cost too.
What a bizarre comparison.
Only bizzarre if you don't understand numbers.
woohoo
dogpiled by Team musk
we got that - thank you 😀
On my list an EV is nowhere.
To be honest it doesnt make the value and practicality quotient.
Just say there is a cheap EV CUV for under $35k that does say 400km.
Can you accomodate that in your life if you live in a high rise?
Does that work for you if you need to do the occasional country trip?
The only way it would work for me is if you have your own house and you have solar cells on your roof… AND its a 2nd car… ie. you have a petrol backup car.
As a 2nd car it makes sense. I dont drive more than 100km round trip a day.
But then the above caveats come in.
The only way I'm going to get a house w/ solar cells is if I inherit lol… and by then I can afford a Model S plaid.
Even without solar cells on to charge your EV, the cost of electricity is a lot cheaper than petrol.
@Euphemistic: I recognise you are right. However it becomes a bit of psychology. We have no issue putting in $50 $75 $100 per week per fill but with out electricity bills as they are now we dont want to see them go higher due to a car.
But the amount you save on petrol and maintenance etc.
The cheapest EV is the MG ZS EV?
The UK has an MG 5 EV station wagon which looks nice for what it is.
@tonyjzx: EVs aren’t for everyone right now. But they most likely suit a second vehicle for someone with a garage where they can charge overnight.
At the moment manufacturers seem obsessed with maximising range (at a cost). The vast majority of ‘second cars’ rarely do more than 100km in a day. You are right the psychology of it comes into play. Many people don’t recognise that an EV charged in a garage means a full tank every single day, rather than going for a few weeks and having to go out of your way to get petrol.
@Euphemistic: People love to wax on about the range but most people just don't drive that much. People are classic overcompensaters, they buy the 7 seater when they only have 2 or 3 kids, they buy the diesel for the long trips when they don't do many kms, they buy the SUV over the sedan when they are the same size internally because they need more space. People don't buy using logic, or half od us would be driving hatches and sedans. Most people aren't car experts, and even the ones that think they know about cars, they just know about the models and manufacturers, they actually don't know anything about how they work under the hood. If everyone bought the car they needed rather than what they thought they needed, many more people would be considering EVs
@Jackson: Until there's a road trip where there's no charging station along the way.
People would then say you can then hire a car. Which you can technically, but it comes with a host of inconveniences.
@berry580: Too many people will buy for the dream and then never realise it. So they suffer inconvenience for the majority of the one paying more and dealing with an oversized/overspec vehicle.
That’s where the marketers catch us. Got sold the dream of outback adventure, got stuck in traffic using twice as much fuel as I need to. Now can’t afford the adventure.
Damn right! I just bought a V8.
Damn, and I'm sitting here with no list at all.
An EV is nowhere on my list.
Nissan says it all here
"Nissan's Ben Warren said Australia only needed to take direction from European nations, which had a dramatically higher uptake of EV technology."
Read carefully. Nissan wants Australia to subsidise their development, but only if Europe wants the same features we want.
What?
Very simple, they sell a hundred times more cars in Europe. If they get say a $1000 subsidy for each car in Europe they will listen and develop. Regardless of Australia.
If we give them $1000 they will take the money and thats it.
So Europe demands what we want, we will get it, if they demand something we dont want or dont care about, wont get it.
So why subsidise them?
Ah yes we send a message to the other countries of the world that we care about the environment?
Yep the big polluting nations listen to us? They still pollute regardless. They promise but never deliver
And look at what some do when we try to send messages. We get threatened with extinction.
When Nissan builds great EV's we can buy them, we can buy them in bucket loads. Until then "Tell em, they are dreaming"
They actually get taxed for not selling EVs in the EU. There's a tax on failing to meet a average fuel efficiency across their sales.
This is VW have a manufacturer's rebate on electric cars sold in the EU, not having to pay this tax is worth about $10,000 an EV.
There's a similar scheme in some US states, but companies that don't meet the efficiency requirements can trade tax credits with those that exceed the requirements. Tesla made US $1.6 billion from this trade last year.
Tesla's dirty little secret: Its net profit doesn't come from selling cars
Caltex convenience doesn't make much profit off fuel sales… Shhhhhh
I've delayed getting a new car because there's no stock and I can't be bothered waiting months and being locked into a contract and something better comes along. If I buy and something better comes along it's just one of those things but buying and not having it plus seeing something better would not make me happy. Supply will get back to normal at some point and I'll buy then. I wasn't planning on buying an EV due to cost but also nothing that I actually like and meets my needs being on the market but I would certainly consider it if there was.
Which car are you looking for?
I need something with some ground clearance but am sick of 4WDs so I'd narrowed it down to a Forester or XV but I'll review again when the time comes to see what's changed on the market. As soon as I order I have no doubt that an XT model of the Forester will be announced or the XV will get the 2.5 like it does in the US so I'll wait until I can buy from stock again. I'm not in a hurry.
Great! I’m sort of in a similar boat. Haven’t visited any dealer yet. What was the wait times you were told? Heard that due to chip shortages there has been a slow down with manufacturing cars
@Dr-StrangeLove: Minimum 3 months but not guaranteed. That was 3 months ago though now but I don't believe has changed.
@apsilon: Ok. 3 months is not that bad. But I understand from a different perspective. Good luck with your search and thanks for taking time to answer my curiosity questions.
@Dr-StrangeLove: No worries. It was a minimum though, could just as easily end up 6 months. I also have a feeling it's blown out further since then. I plan on checking again after winter.
@apsilon: Yeah winter seems to be a good month for buying cars and getting deals. Had seen it somewhere that sales are a bit slow during that time so dealers have a bit more wiggle room
@Dr-StrangeLove: I think covid related and silicon chip related shortages might mean that any previous price 'trends' are likely not applicable
@Dr-StrangeLove: supply shortages and long lead times, why would they need to provide additional discounts in winter when people are currently waiting 3-12 months for current orders as it is(on popular models)
Waiting makes sense if you have a place to charge, otherwise its pretty much the same.
Not entirely true.
Not sure why this got negged so quickly. Plenty of places have renewables, and a lot of people have solar.
This is absolutely correct. Depending on where you live, your electricity's "greenness" changes. But no matter where you live some of it is.
See: https://opennem.org.au/energy/nem/?range=all&interval=1y and change the filter on the right to "Renewable/Fossil". You'll see that nationwide that 30% of power is now non-fossil. However you can switch the state up the top left to compare QLD with only about 16% as a state (please guys), to Tassie with nearly 99%.
And if you're supplementing this with your own solar - all the better.
the energy efficiency of an electric vehicle powered on coal is much the same as the energy efficiency of an ICE vehicle with fuel in the tank. If you take into account the refining process, which uses a lot of energy, you it makes more sense to use electric vehicles powered by coal.
as we move to more renewable electricity it improves even further.
It's not just energy efficiency, it's also energy security, removing pollution from densely populated areas, and generally trying to move past a completely hydrocarbon-centric worldview.
Hahah, nope, it’s not even close.
Except that the power source aka batteries could be 98% recycled and once you establish a supply chain, you will not require to dig the earth for these materials. Can you recycle burnt petrol?
For me you've perfectly encapsulated the dilemma facing many buyers. Lithium batteries might be recyclable one day, but for now, we're cutting down trees to extract raw products.
Many of the environmental benefits that could come from electric cars are in the future, especially here in Australia where most of our electricity is generated using older technologies.
Even the process of setting up renewable energy generating facilities has an environmental toll.
For now, we have big car companies lobbying our governments for offsets and rebates. I'm cynical about that given what we saw GM do not that long ago: taking Australian tax payers money, money that was meant to go towards manufacturing here, and giving it to their US parent company to bolster the bottom line there.
So, do we buy EVs now in the hope that all the environmental benefits will come, or do we buy the most responsible ICE car we can now?
As with all things humans do, there will be negative consequences whatever we choose.
@Dalton: We are cutting down trees for paper that we use to wipe our a$$, timber for new houses, paper for notebooks yada yada. I dont hear Amazon's are at risk because of lithium or iron extraction? The solution to incessant mindless entitled consumption is not "no consumption". As long we are alive, we will consume. The idea is to reduce the suffering of the planet, from mindless to mindful consumption.
You have conveniently left out that most EV owners also have solar panels on their houses. Even if the EV is powered by electricity produced by coals or renewable sources, it still is way more efficient and while it consumes, it doesnt pollute the atmosphere around it either. An EV does not need engine oils or various other filter either and the brakes will last the whole lifetime of the car because they arent used as much.
@dealsucker: I'm essentially pro EV because I think they are better (than ICE vehicles) in many ways. But the environmental argument is complicated.
And, to be clear, there is a difference between the plantation trees we use for paper (of most kinds) and the land that gets cleared for mining.
My comment is not a treatise on the topic: I'm not conveniently leaving anything out, just pointing out that this is a complicated subject that, if one wants to be mindful, one must keep a lot of things in mind.
Solar PVs are an answer and a question in themselves, and EVs do use some lubricants and coolants, and will have parts that wear out.
My big concern is that we will cause many other kinds of damage to the planet and introduce new forms of pollution in our quest to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. But you're right, humans will consume, so both the question of CO2 and all other forms of pollution will need to be addressed, each in its own time.
Perhaps you're right, too, that the time to consider CO2 is now, and we can deal with these other things later, or our children will.
Even if all the electricity came from coal it's still cleaner. However not driving / buying a new car is greener still.
Yes, everyone forgets how much pollution occurs just from making a new car.
Because if you buy a new car, your old car is going to be crushed and thrown into the ocean.
The only way that logic makes sense is if a new car wouldn't be made otherwise, which is completely untrue.
@Zephyrus: End of life vehicles get recycled, which uses more power again.
Wand really the point though, the point is if people really cared that much about pollution, they wouldn't buy new cars so often, and also that it takes quite a while to offset the emissions from creating a new ev.
@brendanm: Can I get a EV conversion then? I’d have no problem doing that if the price was right. My 2007 model car has everything I need and could surely be updated to cover some of the modern nice to have things like CarPlay, parking sensors or heated seats. It’s already been upgraded to reverse camera which cost about $150 DIY
@Euphemistic: EV conversions are on the order of $30-$50k depending how much you want to DIY. Batteries, motors and inverters aren't cheap and there's a fair bit of engineering to do.
@brendanm: I can see it getting cheaper and better as more EVs get written off. It seems that modern cars get written off with what looks like fairly minor damage so there will be an increase in parts available. Some places are working on bolt in kits, especially for VW and Porsche to start with.
People have been doing engine swaps and upgrades for a long time. EV conversion is a new frontier for customising cars.
@Euphemistic: There are conversions, they are just never going to be that great. In late model cars, everything communicates via canbus. So if you delete the standard engine and ecu, you have no abs, no stability control, no cruise control, amongst probably a million other things. This makes the conversion illegal, unless you reverse engine all this rubbish somehow.
Converting older cars to electric doesn't have this problem, but then you just have an old car with no creature comforts that's electric, that owes you probably as much as just buying one of those electric MG's.
@brendanm: Cars are a funny thing. Lots are bought for style over substance. Chuck a conversion in, add AC, cruise control and ABS with good reliability and a quiet non-smelling drivetrain and plenty would jump at a classic car. Many classics aren’t driven daily because they aren’t reliable and comfortable.
@Euphemistic: You mentioned a 2007 car so I was replying to that. Old things would be ok, but you lose the soul.
@brendanm: Yeah I get that. I’m seriously considering a conversion of a late 60s vehicle. It could be done with direct drive (single speed, no gearbox), but a part of me wants to keep a clutch and be able to change gears like the good old days. It’s the only way I could convince my wife to get an old car I suspect- she loves the style of them, but gets carsick from the fumes.
It would still be a play car, but if cheaper to run would be great for weekday commuting and still keep an ICE ute for towing, beach trips etc.
@Euphemistic: Look into the cost before you get too excited. I thought it would be good as well until I saw the prices.
There are places overseas that sell Tesla motors with the gearbox and diff, and also have control boxes to make it work. Would be pretty cool.
@brendanm: Yes it’s expensive, but it’s not all about $ is it? Lots of people spend mega $ on hobby cars. I’d like to spend less than a current model EV, maybe $20k for 150km range including lots of DIY work too. Paying someone else to do it would spoil half the fun for me.
I’ve been watching SuperFast Matt on YouTube. He’s building a 1950s Jaguar with Tesla running gear.
But the reality is EV electricity still comes from gas and coal power in Aus so all it does is make people 'feel good'.
This completely ignores the efficiency of extracting power from coal/gas at a major power plant, compared to the efficiency of extracting power in an ice engine
Both might be from dirty sources but for example if an ice is 15% energy efficient and a coal plant is 35% energy efficient , it's not a 1 to 1 comparison.
My ‘research’ suggests ICE is 22-26% energy efficient. Coal electricity is 40% efficient including transmission losses. That doesn’t take into account the vast amounts of energy used in refining and delivering fuel
As opposed to being right wing and longing for the days of a horse and carriage…
"EV's at current prices are for cashed up boomers and lefties who think they are saving the world by driving an EV."
Correct!
They think that they can change the weather by driving EV's, paying thru the nose for renewables, protesting a "lack of action" on mythical anthropogenic climate change, and generally engaging in any overt virtue signalling they can think of.BUT, BUT, BUT, they're obviously lacking in true commitment to "saving the planet" coz I have yet to hear that any one of them have converted to an "eco -friendly" insect diet as recommended by their masters at the UN
If buying an EV is "virtue signalling", wouldn't not buying an EV also be virtue signalling?
mythical anthropogenic climate change
well, if you say its "mythical" I assume fire breathing dragons must also be a related cause…
the world populations doubled since 1970, and co2 emissions have increased by like 90% in the same time… but sure, any changes to the atmosphere are clearly unrelated to our actions;)
You gronk, do you really believe that releasing carbon sequestered by Microorganisms for Billions of years, then plants for hundreds of millions of years, over the space of maybe two or three centuries WONT have any effects on the climate?
I can only dream to be as oblivious as you.
Right, so the financiers and insurers of the world only take climate change seriously because they are woke?
Do you feel the same way about electric lawnmowers?
Probably 90% of mine comes my rooftop solar. The other 10% from public chargers when travelling. Most (not all) EV owners I know have a similar kind of setup.
Science is also pretty clear that even the worst case of an EV charging from coal power it's still heaps better than burning petrol.
Cashed up, may be but lefties? Like what is this compulsion of bringing in political ideology in an argument about cars? It is senile. I could be a right wing performance car nut to be wanting a Model 3 Performance.
P.S. Looking at your user name, you look like you have migrated here. If there was no left the right wing could be kicking your veritable ar$e anytime.
P.S. Looking at your user name, you look like you have migrated here.
wow. lol
Tell me you havent? "lol"
MS Paint on 30/05/2021 - 11:29 Comment score below threshold.
