I live in metro Melbourne and rarely drive in regional areas.
Today, I was driving on the Hume Freeway, and the rain was significant at times. Even though I felt it is quite unsafe to drive at the normal speed (110km/h), most drivers seemed to care less. I felt that I might lose grip. I ended up driving around 95-100km/h on the left lane to see vehicles piling behind me before overtaking.
What would you do in these conditions?
I think this highlights actual vs perceived capability. 4wds, especially dual cab utes, perform terribly on wet roads. They are heavy with a high centre of gravity giving them long braking distances and making them inherently less stable. This is made worse by off road tires which provide low grip on wet roads compared to road tyres. On top of this they are far more dangerous to other road users because they hit them at a higher point on the car. People that choose to drive 4wds have a responsibility to drive more slowly and carefully.
100% agree with this.
100% agree with this.
1000% more like it!
Couldn't agree more.
100% this. I didn't realise until I drove my brother's dual cab in the wet a few years ago. The thing was seriously sketchy and felt like it was going to slide out from under me at any second… it even had pretty new tyres on it…
Meanwhile my humble Impreza is virtually as solid in the wet as it is in the dry with the low centre of gravity and always on AWD. Definitely way more comfortable in this little hatch than the big 4x4 in the wet.
No doubt. Which model? To provide extra traction in the wet, I put my dual cab in 4x4 (unlocked centre diff).
@ShortyX: My understanding is some people say 4x4 mode in the wet isn't ideal and it is really designed for unsealed roads only. Wet is still grippy enough that it can be harmful. But I think the 4x4 community seems split on the issue. Anyway, wasn't my car so I wasn't messing with it as I accept I am not a 4x4 expert.
It was a Holden Colorado but my understanding is this is universal to big 4x4 utes such as Ranger, DMAX etc.
My understanding is some people say 4x4 mode in the wet isn't ideal and it is really designed for unsealed roads only.
Generally that's the case but the Amarok and Triton have exceptions. I set my Triton to 4H in the wet.
From https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-reviews/4wd-modes-explained…
Most four-wheel drive dual-cab utes on the market are daily driven in two-wheel drive (rear-wheel drive), with four-wheel drive modes used for off-road driving.
The exception to this rule are vehicles like the Volkswagen Amarok or the Mitsubishi Triton. The Amarok has permanent all-wheel drive, while the Triton offers a system that allows the use of four-wheel drive on sealed surfaces.
@Scrooge McDuck: Yeah totally agree. I only set it for uphill starts where my car literally slides backwards. A/T tyres…
But cornering I always throttle otherwise same diff.
@Scrooge McDuck: Love my rwd but 4wd does provide slight braking advantage due to increased engine braking especially in manual
Triton have exceptions. I set my Triton to 4H in the wet.
Same, I am not sure if it provides better braking, however handling is improved significantly.
The real issue is that most of those '4wd's are only ever 2wd. The 4wd mode locks the diff and you cannot use it on the roads (unless you only drive in straight lines). Pair that with the fact that there is no weight on the back of utes and vans, and they're super dangerous.
Try driving awd's or big fat european SUV's that are 3 tonnes, they stick to the road real well.
big fat european SUV's that are 3 tonnes
It is because they got road tires. Basically jacked up sedans.
Its not, if you think its the same in the wet you are wrong, f1 cars even arent the same in the wet
@Franc-T: I did say "virtually as solid" not "exactly the same". Obviously actual grip and braking/cornering ability is inhibited by the wet… But it still drives really well given the conditions and unlike many FWD cars I've owned, I never get any kind of loss of traction etc. which is easy to achieve when accelerating a little too heavily in a FWD vehicle.
People who think dual cabs are safer have obviously not driven one around a roundabout at like 20km/hr and still had the back fishtail on them. God damn colorado's man.
Put 600kg in the back and they'll be fine. Its the weight imbalance.
@ATangk: Most of them are not marketed as 1 tonners - some have as little as 769kg payload such as the Hilux Rogue:
https://www.motoring.com.au/2019-best-dual-cab-4wd-ute-paylo…
@Dogsrule: Well 1 tonne is actually for the bare basic ones with an alu tray and single cab. Once you start adding those roll bars, loads of body and all that other crap, it just eats away at load capacity.
@ATangk: Yep, its funny that the cheapie single cab 2wd versions can carry about 1.3t, way more than the ‘tough’ 4wd DC versions covered in shiny ‘off road’ paraphernalia.
BAM!
and the dirt is gone
I find these guys in the fast lane 9/10 on the Western Ring… flyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy by
No one has the right to tailgate someone doing the speed limit whilst overtaking a car in the right lane. Literally putting that persons life at risk all so they can speed to their destination a few minutes quicker.
This guy gets it
Too true. The kind of car you drive influences your driving style, and many people in these larger cars act like they're driving tanks.
The Simpsons got it right once again
Nominating this for OzBargain comment of the year.
Just got a 2wd ute for work. I'm DEFINITELY driving -10km less in the wet, this thing's tail flys out in the dry if you're not careful.
It seems that @Hybroid's self-assessment of (his own?) driving skills might be a problem.
Here's a perfect example showing just how easily some tradies rolled their utes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_OQ-bdfRX0
The centre of gravity is lower in these utes versus the Ford Rangers and Toyota Hiluxs'…..dual cabs / 4WD's roll over way too easily - better not tell all the mums at school!
As for the OP's poll - I drive to the conditions. If it's raining I only lower my speed and increase the distance between me and the car in front if warranted by the conditions….sadly many people can't
That's not really a good example - almost any car would roll in that situation where they're at speed and then jag sideways suddenly.
Good luck with that. they are almost always driven by arrogant "I'm bigger so get out of my way" style tossers, and there are more of them on the road now than ever before.
They are also extremely ugly vehicles, don't know why they are so trendy.
Maybe he mean what most people say is AWD. Constant 4x4 is safer than 2WD
Victorians as a whole are the worst Drivers in Australia.
As much as i dislike to stereotype but im going to in this case and say most people who drive around in those Toorak tractors have a tendency to ignore the welfare others and enjoyment of the road for anyone but themselves and their hideous mechanical monstrosities.
People that choose to drive 4wds have a responsibility to drive more slowly and carefully.
LOL, good one, come down to Melbourne where SUVs/4x4s rule the road (or at least they think they do).
A modern specced 4x4 with off-road grippy tires isn't going to worry as much about wet grip as a 2003 Corolla with balding tyres.
it’s got nothing to do with what car you drive. it’s all ignorance and over confidence of driving skills.
Of course it does. There's a huge difference between a 20 year old hatchback and a brand new tech-laden Range Rover.
I'd rather have a 20yo Hatch and know how to drive it in adverse conditions than the tech-laden Rover with NFI.
Yes. The tech-laden Range Rover is more likely to roll due to it's higher centre of gravity.
As long as the Corolla has a basic all weather tyres in reasonable condition, it will handle significantly better in the wet. You would need an electric sports SUV with a skate board design, like a Model X, or insaine tyres, to out handle most light hatch backs in the rain.
A Taycan or Model S should handle even better (due to their weight and even lower centre of gravity).
And unlike the Range Rover, you can actually ford flood water in a Tesla as Tesla's are boats. Technoking daddy Musk confirmed /s (Don't drive in flood waters. A technoking is no Technoviking so ignore).
I would say that it goes both ways, and is also lack of confidence in driving skills causing someone to drive slower than what is safe.
I find that most speed limits on fwys and highways are perfect in the wet(normal rain events), they are set to adverse conditions already and just punish everyone when the conditions are good. They are recommended speeds, set for the worst drivers in old cars. The word "speed Limit" is not correct in australia, but our politicians make it all up as we go along haha
I'm pretty sure that speed limits are enforceable, not just recommended speeds.
Politicians don't get a say in the speed limits.
@GG57: We have recommended speeds enforced like speed limits. That's the problem.
Politicians do decide the speed limits, look at any of the justifications for lowering speed limits, it's purely political (the way they twist statistics is laughable), speed limit goes down, speed cameras go up. Nothing to do with road safety.
The last report I read used crash statistics from drivers doing 40-60km/hr OVER the limit to justify reducing a speed from 100 to 90 or something. They just make a narrative and copy paste a reason.
A modern specced 4x4 with off-road grippy tires isn't going to worry as much about wet grip as a 2003 Corolla with balding tyres.
This highlights why people like you drive faster than they should in the rain.
Off road tyres are not designed for heavy rain, so do not clear the water from under the tyre so have a greater chance of aquaplaning.
Yep, driven several 4WDs with AT tyres and they all had a tendency to aquaplane easier than I would have liked in the wet.
I always keep a good 2-3 second gap so rain or no rain, makes no difference to my driving.
No difference?
Do you even have a licence or did it come in a cereal box?
As you live in NSW here is some reading for you.
Slow down
It seems obvious, but it’s always a good idea in wet weather to ease up on the gas.
You should also increase the distance between you and the cars ahead.
In normal conditions, it’s recommended that you leave a three second gap – in the wet, try to double this.
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/geared/your_driving_skills/drivin…All cars are capable of stopping in time if you leave a 3 second gap regardless of how much rain there is
No they are not, people like you are the reason crashes happen and people die.
The only difference is that I will slow down for large puddles in the road as they aren't pleasant to drive through at 100km/h.
You seem to care about yourself. How about extending that to other road users.
That's funny, I've never crashed nor have I ever heard of someone crashing when leaving a 3 second gap. You make some funny assumptions. Why on earth would you die for following the road rules and leaving a 3 second gap? Why am I selfish and only care about myself for leaving a 3 second gap??? The guys that write the road rule book aren't idiots you know, have some faith that they know what they are talking about instead of assuming that you are smarter than them.
I think you'll find that you need a reality check, the vast majority of people leave only a 1 second gap or less (Most people on the highways in Sydney leave a 10-25m gap which is a 0.4-1 second gap at 90km/h) which is why there are so many car crashes. This is the real reason behind most car crashes. If only everyone drove like me and left a 2-3 second gap, crashes would be down by 99% as this is a 2x-7.5x bigger gap than what everyone else leaves.
Yes, you have made one correct point. If you're driving a fully loaded semi-trailer or B double truck then 3 seconds definitely won't cut it. For everyone else driving an unloaded sedan or similar, 3 seconds will be more than enough.
You must not know much about licenses if you think they come on cereal boxes. Mine comes from service NSW with a 50% discount for being a perfect driver for at least half a decade.
Why am I selfish and only care about myself for leaving a 3 second gap??? The guys that write the road rule book aren't idiots you know, have some faith that they know what they are talking about instead of assuming that you are smarter than them.
Because as you said the guys who write the rules aren't idiots but it still doesn't stop stupid people like you who think you are smarter than them ignoring what they write.
As I quoted the smart people 9 months ago
You should also increase the distance between you and the cars ahead.
In normal conditions, it’s recommended that you leave a three second gap – in the wet, try to double this.
So the smart people who write the rules say not to leave a 3 second gap in the wet.
Yet the stupid people like you choose to ignore that because you think you know better.
Biggest risk is aquaplaning at high speed. If too much water is on the road your vehicle will "surf" and no more steering. I consider up to 80kmh safe.
In replying to OP:
One of our major clients has manufacturing facilities there so I frequent that freeway.
- A lot of the trucks don't give anywhere near enough distance to stop, an emergency stop is purely swirving into the other lane to avoid hitting the car in front.
- Lots of rear wheel drive muscle cars thinking they ahve 4wd and handle the wet well.
- I don't even understand how the lighter utes on single cab with their tiny thin tyres even dare especially in the rougher wind conditions past Epping.
If it's raining heavy and you can't see properly then definitely drive slower. Just because other people do something, doesn't mean you need to follow. Would still use significant amounts of caution around that area given the demographics and blue collar nature of the users around there, plenty of wannabe Mr Drifters.
A lot of the guys driving down that route though are doing 100-200km-900km trips and do it on a daily basis, especially the trucks so they are pretty over it. Same for the road to Sunbury.
We drive 4x4 sports SUVs around there and yes it does feel a lot safer than some company utes. Big flat road tyres with good rubber vs thin profile utility.
Actually both are dangerous in the wet, especially the 4x4 with off road tyres.
The speed limits on our roads are set to the "lowest common denominator" already.
The highways are designed so that excess water runs off to the side of the road.
And some cars are better than others on wet roads.
The highways may be designed that way but a short drive to the nearest highway during rain to see the puddles everywhere and lack of runoff to the sides demonstrates that they are not built that way and/or they don't stay that way.
Seems you live somewhere where they don't know how to build highways.
I only recently got my P's, and finally got around to doing the drive from Newcastle to Sydney. I could not believe how bad the road on the m1 was for about 75% of it. Cracks everywhere, uneven slabs, POTHOLES (so many in Newcastle anyway).
It did not feel worth it, and will only do it again if I have to take anything more than a couple of bags. I don't know why people don't just get the train.
I was much more comfortable on the Golden Highway going out to Dubbo. It actually felt maintained.
@DragonautDruid: Last time I drove from VIC to NSW was in 2012 and it wasn't that bad. Certainly better at the time than where I lived, which is neither state.
@DragonautDruid: The M1 north of the Central Coast is absolutely wrecked. Its amongst the busiest road corridors in Australia and yet it hasn't been refurbished since it was built in the late 80s-90s. Must have something to do with Newcastle being a safe Labor seat.
@DragonautDruid: You think thats bad?
Try driving on the north side of wisemans ferry , catch the ferry back and then drive back down to sydney.
Let us know if your car survives.
@DragonautDruid: You get used to it and can kind of prepare for the less ideal pieces of road. I have to admit though, it seems to have been improved somewhat over the last year.
It does feel strange that a major road connecting big cities in a developed country is so poor.
NSW?
@Clear: Even the new highway recently built from Brisbane to Grafton has parts where I would not want to drive the speed limit in the wet. And that stretch was finished last year.
The motorways that are at set at 110km/h are generally quite well built. They're designed for 130km/h+.
There are some older sections that haven't been resurfaced for a while but they can still handle 110km/h quite easily. .
That's not how speed limits are set. I'm not a road designer but I'm in the field, thats not how road design works.
People are meant to leave a 3 second gap between cars, which gives a good distance for emergency braking. People do not leave this gap, even in wet conditions.
That's not how speed limits are set. I'm not a road designer but I'm in the field….
So how are they set? They definitely don't use the 85th percentile method that many other safety regulators around the world recommend. The speed limits we have are 10km/h or more under that 85th percentile speed, especially at speed camera zones!
85 %ile speeds are certainly a thing of the past. Roads are generally designed for safety, not to facilitate the highest speed possible on the road.
Roads are commonly over-designed to the design speed - for example, a road may be planned to be 60 km/h, but they'll design for 70 or 80. I'm not sure why, but I imagine it increases the safety without impacting too much on the cost
I could see your comment about speed cameras being true, but I suspect the cause and effect are switched. Speed cameras are a road safety tool, so they are situated in locations where behaviour change is sought - i.e. where the 85%ile speed is greater than the posted limit
Edit - in terms of how speeds are set, it depends. New roads will be designed to a certain speed, existing roads will be given a default speed of 40/50/60/80/100/110 based on road type, with speeds then altered to account for local conditions where required
@Bren20: They over design the road for safety reasons. However when designing a road to a specific design speed, the parameters they adjust such as lane width and curvature are based on older cars, so newer cars with better handling can go faster on these roads. Furthermore since the roads are designed to accommodate higher speeds than the speed limit, this encourages people to speed as they feel they can go faster safely.
It creates a paradoxical scenario where over designing a road for "safety" actually makes people behave more dangerously.
@Bren20: Hey quick question. I come across this on regional roads (VIC) quite often where certain roads where you can easily/safely to 100 are limited to 80 BUT more importantly quite a few single lane roads (i.e where you need to go onto gravel for vehicles coming in the opposite direction) and blind spot hills are 100. I would barely want to do 60-70 on some of those sections. Problem is (some) people see the speed limit and blindly stick to it thinking just because a sign says so, it should be fine.
@gimme: Unfortunately our Aussie obsession with the number in the red circle means most drivers have no idea how fast they should travel.
We’ve been trained by years of ‘speed kills’ lessons and ever improving vehicles and roads and have forgotten how to actually drive to the conditions.
@gimme: I think there are a few things at play here.
The default speed limit in rural regions is 100km/h. Unless there's a reason to change it, such as a history of crashes, or community complaints, there's no reason for it to be changed. Lower traffic volume roads will get away with some pretty bad road conditions.
Also, roads in Vic are owned by either VicRoads or council (or transurban). I'd suspect that many of the roads with higher limits that seem unsafe are council roads. Council resources are stretched, they don't go out looking for problems to fix
@Bren20: Thanks makes sense. Vicroads are just as useless. They can't even clean up graffiti off signs, overpasses and general roads which is why most parts of Melbourne look like ghetto dumps these days
@Lets Make Sandwiches: perhaps it's easiest to agree to disagree on this one. You're not going to convince me they're primarily for safety, and I'm not going to convince you they're primarily for revenue.
@Lets Make Sandwiches: Haha, yeah, I probably can manage that. I even double checked my post because it seemed off!
Yeah, that's pretty much all it is. Anyone who leaves a 3 second gap can drive at the full speed under any condition. If you leave a 1m gap at 100km/h you'll always be in car crashes all the time no matter how good you are.
The exception is if you're a truck driver in which case you need to abide by those special rules.
In wet conditions I will leave a gap longer than three seconds.
@Bren20: In which case I slow down to increase the gap as I'm driving according to the road conditions. In my experience, people merging into the gap doesn't happen nearly as much during a heavy downpour compared to when it's dry and I'm driving with a three second gap.
@trongy: That's the logical and sound response
My response is to irrationally fume at the person who merged in, as if driving is a zero sum game and I'm losing
@Bren20: If that gap is a suitable size, it makes very little difference to your forward momentum. Ease off a touch and you're back to 3 seconds. Piece of cake.
Also reduces the concertina effect which causes traffic to slow down to a crawl. No need to jam on your breaks if the gap in front is big enough to allow someone to merge.
Try doubling that in wet weather.
most people in sydney during peak hour don't know what 3 seconds gap is. making me think, is it my fault when someone hit me from behind?
Generally no, and anyone would have a hard time proving it’s your fault that they rear ended you
People are meant to leave a 3 second gap between cars, which gives a good distance for emergency braking. People do not leave this gap, even in wet conditions.
Do you think people would leave a 3 second gap in the wet?
Because they shouldn't, they should leave a 6 second gap.
People are meant to leave a 3 second gap between cars, which gives a good distance for emergency braking. People do not leave this gap
These people who think it is 3 seconds saved until it ends up costing them a lot of money
Your car and/or tyres may be rubbish.
Hybroid on 21/03/2021 - 22:30 Comment score below threshold.
