Hi all,
want to get your expert opinion on rules at round about - I have a special scenario at a round about near my house(Sydney). While I'm clear on the round about rules, it happened many times that there were conflicts and people honking at each other when 2 cars are nearby…
Please have a look at the roundabout picture link below.
https://pasteboard.co/JMJFb24.png
Who has preference - A or B?
Sorry I’m late to the party.
For car B:
Road rule 114:
Driver entering the round about must give way to cars already on the roundabout.
For car A:
Road Rule 117:
Driver to give change of direction signal if changing lanes within a roundabout.
And for all the people saying “but but but, unbroken/continuation line!!” A broken/non-continuous line on a sharp curve can be between 9 and 11 metres in length. Exit lines on round about can be 9m. This does not look more than 9m (or 11m) in length, it would be considered a broken/non-continuous line on a roundabout exit/curve. (AS 1742.x Traffic Markings)
Disappointed that the poll wasn’t “Who has RiGhT oF wAy??”
@Baysew: Road Rule 354 deals with exempting mustangs and mustang owners from any and all road rules, including but not limited to honking their horns at roundabouts…
@pegaxs: Like any good rule, rule 354 creates a paradox where the mustang is exempt from the same rule that exempts them, meaning mustangs are both exempt from all rules and not exempt from any rule, thus making the mustang and mustang owners the law itself.
@pegaxs: This is the answer, whoever enters the roundabout first has right of way as any vehicle that enters a roundabout MUST give way to vehicles already in the roundabout. If vehicle A decides to be a speed demon but enters after B, then collides with B, vehicle A is completely at fault.
If they enter simultaneously then B still has has right of way because B is now in front of A. Only if A enters before B will A ever stand a chance of having the right of way. Having said that, this looks like the exact situation that OP had drawn up, as A is already in the roundabout, A has almighty right of way and car B shouldn't even bother entering.
A
A
Eh?
I vote for B, because A is changing lanes according to diagram. B still is responsible for avoiding collision, obviously.
From NSW guide:
Turning right: On your approach, to a roundabout you must select the right lane, signal right, stay in the right lane and signal left before exiting into the right lane.
If B is on the right lane, then I vote for A.
Brace for the downvotes.
B is on the left lane.
A is on the inner lane and continue on the inner lane to take the exit (no need to change lane and go to the outer lane). So there are lot of ifs and buts….
Thing is B is to slow down anyways, as what everyone approaching this round about should do. Therefore the situation where B has to slam the break - B is in the wrong with speed regardless of preference. B will not be in the right so to speak if it collides with A. Even if B comes to a complete stop, then slowly enter and collides with A, B still is in the wrong (with A). Being B is shit for this roundabout.
However preference wise, A doesn't have that for the left lane.
Your diagram shows A moving from the inner to outer lane. We can't give you a clear answer if you aren't clear on the question.
A changed lanes in a roundabout, not meant to. But B has to give way to everyone already on the roundabout, even the ones who don't know how to drive.
Then the roundabout doesn't make sense, because nobody that can be in the left roundabout lane without changing lanes, then what is the purpose of the give way dotted lines for B?
A is entering the roundabout from the right lane, and must take their exit into the right lane, never crossing the broken line on the exit of the roundabout.
B is in the left lane and can only exit straight ahead, as in, do not cross the broken line. If B wants to turn right, they need to be in the right lane.
Totally agree with your comment. Cars should (/can) move to the outer lanes when taking an exit (after giving clear indication and ensuring you are not getting into someone else's path).
But the problem is the long white line - does it give preference to B?
..is the long white line..
If the roundabout was done properly, that long white line should be raised with those reflectors on flexible poles so that Car A can't cross the line.
Not sure what the rules are over east, but here in WA you can change lanes in a roundabout - https://roadrules.rsc.wa.gov.au/road-rules/roundabouts
Just read the link, interesting, though it does say you have to give way to other vehicles while doing it. So in this case A would still have right of way, but only to exit to the right lane, if they want to exit to the left lane they have to give way to B.
As posted below https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/top-10-mis…
Cars are allowed to change lanes in roundabout when safe to do so in NSW… at the time of publication
not meant to.
Please cite the legislation that states this. RR 117 begs to differ.
I feel like I need to clarify my position on this. Not meant to change lanes in a roundabout, without giving way to vehicles already in that lane.
Well, you say that now…
@pegaxs: I would have thought that was obvious, but I guess on the internet that can't be taken for granted.
To enter a multi-lane roundabout on the right lane you have to move across lanes to get to the right lane in the roundabout, and the opposite for exiting into the right lane.
I thought A too, but I have a similar roundabout where I live, and people who are B gives me dirty looks when they have to brake suddenly to stop. Am I missing something?
Yes, A shouldn't be changing lanes
Can you please reference somewhere that says A shouldn't be changing lanes? I think that is a myth. https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/top-10-mis…
It would be good if they would explain why people think you can't change lanes in a roundabout - for example people think you should give way to your right, but actually it is you should give way to people who are already on the roundabout, which is nearly the same but subtly different.
Can you please reference somewhere that says A shouldn't be changing lanes? I
It's not that lanes can't be changed in a roundabout. Lanes can be changed, but the type of road marking still matters. Car A would need to cross the unbroken white line to enter the lane that B would be driving in. Drivers should not be crossing a continuous unbroken line (unless entering or leaving the road).
Turning right: On your approach, to a roundabout you must select the right lane, signal right, stay in the right lane and signal left before exiting into the right lane.
That is from here.
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/rou…
I didn’t learn to drive in NSW but it’s common sense people shouldn’t be changing lanes in roundabouts willy nilly because that can create dangerous situations.
If people think changing lanes in a roundabout is ok, in this situation would you want B to change into the right lane if they wanted to turn right? Especially when there would be traffic in the lane to their right that would want to exit the roundabout?
When approaching a roundabout you should get into the correct lane first and stay in that lane the whole time. Doesn’t matter if it’s a two or three lane roundabout.
A shouldn’t be changing lanes
Please cite the relevant RR legislation to back this up. RR 117 and AS1742 beg to differ.
This looks clear cut to me. B must give way.
A has right of way as its already on the roundabout. B cant cross that dotted line (give way).
I have the same opinion (and rule says so). But the long white line that A need to cross creates confusion for everyone - that A is not allowed to switch lane at that point.
I don't know how accurate that line is, If that line was intended to be a solid line then it could extend from where B was all the way through the roundabout. It would still be extremely confusing and if that's the designers intent then B's lane should be completely separate from the roundabout (barrier or speed hump of some kind maybe) and merge back in afterwards.
Except there is no right of way. B must give way.
Roundabouts are first in, best dressed.
A.
First in the roundabout has right of way, doesn't matter what A does in the roundabout, first in best dressed.
Nobody has right of way, it doesn't exist in the road rules.
B must give way to their right even if A illegally crosses the line and enters the other lane to exit the roundabout
it's A - we recently had one of those setup near our house and yeah a lot of honking and road rage first few months, but settled down after that.
Basically the road rules say you have to give way to ALL vehicles already on the roundabout
What happens further down the road?
There is a similar set up near me and about 20m down the road, you must go straight from the left lane and right from the right lane, so selecting the lane in the roundabout actually makes the most sense as there is no chance to merge once off the roundabout, but for the car A there is only one lane to make the right turn onto the roundabout.
There’s no contention in my example. Car B would just not enter the roundabout until it’s clear what car A is doing
You're not all allowed to change lanes on a roundabout. A is the one doing something wrong. B should be paying attention to what's going on and let A through to avoid an accident even though A is doing the wrong thing.
While I'm clear on the round about rules
You understand the Roundabout rules, yet you ask roundabout Rule 2… ?
Is this the one at new line road and boundary road in cherrybrook? There used to be a sign before the entry at B which made it look like the left lane entering from B is not part of the roundabout and can go straight through, and A should actually be exiting into the right most lane. Looks like they're removed that sign now.
I thought this was a joke about needing to add a new line or boundary to separate the lanes, and that joke got even better when I checked google map just in case and it was in fact on new line road and boundary road.
One look at the situation and it was immediately obvious that it was New line/Boundary. Even if they've removed the sign, the 2 lanes coming from Cherrybrook goes to a solid line, which means that the left traffic should continue through, and that anyone coming from A should not be crossing the solid line. B usually never stops flowing.
E: on closer review after you mentioned they removed the sign, it seems they also scrubbed the continuous line from B's direction. I don't understand why it should ever stop flowing though… traffic turning from A should just exit in the right lane and then make a merge into the left after the roundabout if they need to go to on Francis Greenway Dr.
A lot of roundabouts on Gold Coast now make you exit in the left lane when turning right now.
EG:https://www.whereis.com/qld/hope-island-4212
That has pretty clear marking. Helpful.
Neither a or b should cross paths here, no one gives way. A should not be crossing that white line there….
the whith line is so cars coming from car B side in the kerb lane dont think they can turn right. Car B has to give way.
Keyword being should — never trust or assume you know what another driver will do on the road.
Of course you need to treat everyone else as a Kellogg’s driver, but car A would win the insurance claim (unless both don’t have any).
Is there a solid line that A is crossing? If so the B has right of way to use the "through" lane.
Putting a concrete kerb would make a more effective 'don't cross here' deterrent.
If there are broken lines then B has to give way to all other vehicle already on the round about.
Given the intersection themirror has mentioned above, car B needs to give way 100%. Car A can choose to exit into either lane.
God I hate concrete kerbs/dividers. Especially the ones after you cross the Harbour bridge going north.
Always giveway to cars already in the round about…. why would you drive into a car?
A has right of way if in roundabout but shouldn’t be changing lanes in the first place. Just like how people shouldn’t change lanes in an intersection.
There are two lanes, A is turning right so should remain in the right (i.e. inner) lane to exit, not change lanes into the left (i.e. outer) lane and exit as that is unnecessary.
If the two lanes merged into one lane then yes A would have to change lanes but in this case it just creates danger.
Nobody on the road ever has right of way.
I think pretty much all three exit roundabouts should separate the lanes between the two opposite exits, it would just decongest traffic and as far as I can tell have no safety concerns.
Changing lanes on a roundabout always seemed like a bad idea to me anyway, it just adds an extra level of uncertainty to the situation. I feel there is no way to give sufficient warning in changing lanes when on a roundabout, you already have to indicate right to turn then left to leave if you indicate left to change lanes that would just create more confusion.
What do you mean ‘who has preference?’ It’s not a word used in road rules. One vehicle is required to ‘give way’. The other doesn’t have ‘right of way’ either, they still have a responsibility to give way in the event the other vehicle does not give way as the road rule requires.
right to be given way
right to be given way
Nothing in the traffic rules about that - anywhere. There is only a responsibility to give way.
A
Although A should stay in the inner lane then change over to the left if they so choose, B must always Weald to any vehicle that is already in the round about.
You can contact the roads authority and explain the situation. They may actually paint lines to keep driver A away from the outer lane, and allow B to enter unhindered
Go forth and B unhindered 'my son'
“Yea, though I drive through the lane of the right at the roundabout, I will fear no car to the left: for legislation art with me; thy road and thy police they comfort me. Thou preparest a lane before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my car with giveth ways; my cup runneth over…” Psalm 23, Road Bible, 2014.
A has right of way, always, everyday. B must give way to all traffic in the roundabout.
In that particular picture, there is no second lane where you have marked A. I suspect there's a case to say A moving to either lane, at the point the second lane is created, is not a lane change.
A has right of way, always,
Nobody on the road has right of way.
Everybody has a responsibility to give way.
A has "right of way". B will be the "at fault" party in an accident paying for personal and property damage to A.
"right of way" is the legal right of a pedestrian, vehicle, or ship to proceed with precedence over others in a particular situation or place.
Right of way does not apply in the traffic rules - at all. It isn’t mentioned. There is only a responsibility to give way according to different rules.
It’s a subtle but important point in the rules.
Your premise is correct though, just the wording is not correct in a legal sense. B must give way and would be at fault in an incident.
Basic, all traffic must give way to the right. Roundabout is a Single lane, all lanes entering Single, Multi, must give way to right.
Not ‘give way to right’. That’s an old rule no longer in use, especially at a roundabout. At a roundabout you give way to vehicles on the roundabout. This does generally align with give way to the right, but it’s not the rule.
cherrybrook?
yep..you got it
Google maps link?
@pegaxs: Nice work with the links pegs.
The line markings, while not continuous are also not standard broken line length either. I’m sure the intention of the lane markings is to guide car A to stay in the right lane on exit and for B to stay left. But not being continuous it would appear that A may change lanes to the left lane.
I’m not sure how legally that lane marking should be interpreted being somewhere between continuous and broken.
@Euphemistic: Under AS1742, these are the correct markings for roundabouts.
Page 5 (page 11 actual), Lane Lines, under Special Purpose Broken Lines (b), Incl. exit lines at roundabouts. (9m long with a 3m gap to the next line)
It seems here that they are using the Dividing Lines Special Purpose (top of same page as above), which is 9m to 11m long with a 1m to 3m gap. (looks like they are going the 9m with 1m gap option.) So, they are pretty standard…
Either way, this is definitely a broken/non-continuous line according to AS1742 and the road rules.
@pegaxs: Cheers. I probably could have looked it up, but looks like you’ve got this stuff on speed dial.
The lesser of two evils in this case is A straying from their lane.
B would have to give way to their right (as the line markings depict they must hold, and all other vehicles currently in the roundabout, even if their lane is effectively a slip lane with no circulation involvement.
So in this case B would be at fault i'd believe. However this is where the road rules would be a bit funny because b is technically not pulling into A's lane, Similar to if you were pulling out into a dual carriageway, it's legal to pull into a lane if a car is passing in the outer lane. The sticking point though would be the fact that it's a roundabout and you'd need to give way to your right which is where B may be caught out.
In reality though that dividing line between the slip lane and the roundabout should be solid and then we wouldn't have a debate, although i think it's dotted due to buses straddling both lanes.
Car A exit in their lane, right lane or right road. Car B should be cautious though as there might be a driveway for Car A to go up as you never know what's the reason for this, or maybe he might be pulling over after exiting.
I know if there are two lanes in the direction your travelling, and your turning left onto these lanes, if there is one car in the right lane and none in the left, you should still wait for the car in the right lane to pass.
Who has preference - A or B?
Nobody on the road had has a right to preference.
Everybody on the road has a responsibility to give way.
That's right. It's better to avoid an accident, even if you're in the right.
so in event of accident, who gives way?
There wouldn't be an accident if they give way.
B should give way to A at all cost. But A changing lanes mid way is a dick move
Your mistake was not saying you were asking for a friend.
Car A has right of way but shouldn't be changing lanes on the roundabout.
Car B needs to give way but shouldn't be hindered by car A as he is illegally changing lanes on the roundabout.
Car A does not have “right of way” as there is no such statement in the road rules that says “right of way”. B has the obligation to give way. And B needs to give way to everyone already on the roundabout, so there is no way B can be “hindered” by anyone, because B has to give way to A regardless.
And please, show me in the road rules where it says that it is ”illegal” to change lanes in a round about. (I’ll give you a hint… start at road rule 117 where it says it isn’t.)
Only problem is that the line is a single line so car a should not cross it. Yes car a should give way but car A is doing the wrong thing as he should wait to change lanes after exiting.
Thank you for joining ozbargain and requesting verification of NSW road rules.
Esteemed member, and NSW road rules specialist, pegaxs will be available to help you very soon.
May I suggest you add a poll to facilitate responses.