How to Prove 3rd Car's Fault in Pile-up

Lbeesider on 09/01/2021 - 23:19
Last edited 11/01/2021 - 19:04 by 1 other user

While driving in the middle lane on a highway on a nice sunny day, all of a sudden a Mercedes in front of me comes to a full stop, making me do emergency braking. I come to a stop and while stationary, an old Toyota behind me smashes into me and pushes my car into the Mercedes. My Honda Civic has the most damage, coolant leaking out, front bumper falling off, car smashed from front and rear. The Mercedes has some surface damage on the rear bumper but not too much, and Toyota hasn't got much damage either but its airbags deployed. My car is the most affected and had to be towed.

Crash order: Mercedes <— Honda Civic <— Toyota

The Mercedes has comprehensive insurance. I have 3rd party. The Toyota has nothing, as the driver said. The Toyota driver gave his phone number but didn't give any further details, he's not picking up my phone calls and blocked me on WhatsApp. I took a photo of his car with the license plate (shows registered).

As there were no injuries, the police were informed but didn't attend the scene. Even though it happened on a weekend with lots of cars around, no one came forward as a witness.

I understand the Mercedes' insurance would be claiming from my insurance, but what do I do? How can I prove it's all the Toyota's fault and how do I make him pay for the loss of my car ($4-$5k market value)? Can I sue him to get some money back? How do I make the Mercedes deal with him too so my premiums wouldn't go up?

I also don't know what to do with the car as it's now at a scrapyard, towing to which was around $370, and every day the car stays there costs about $27 a day.

Lot's of questions, really frustrated and still in a bit of a shock. Would really appreciate any help.

Car photos

Update:
The police got in touch with the Toyota driver and provided me with his contact details. Despite that, he went into hiding and continues to ignore my calls and messages. He has an overseas driver's license.

I got my car out from the holding yard - it still runs fine. Just parked it nearby, now waiting for my insurer to come back to me. My policy includes up to 5k payout in case of an accident with an uninsured driver.

The towies charged me $400. Bastards. I don't understand why they didn't offer me to tow the car to my place instead of their holding yard. And given the car is drivable, I didn't need their service at all. They are vultures making money on people who can't think clearly due to being in a state of shock.

Automotive Car Insurance Insurance

Comments

        • lonewolf on 11/01/2021 - 16:05

          hang on, I am in that boat, is that right? I have a old camry that i am paying comprehensive for and nrma reckons its valued around 3k. is that the only difference between 3rd party and comprehensive?

  • plmko on 10/01/2021 - 00:43
    +7

    Haha the Toyota Camry just drives off in the vid.

    If you wanted evidence it's indestructible, this is it.

  • Jugganautx on 10/01/2021 - 03:52
    -4

    What is this a highway for ants?!

    Seriously though there are houses on that street. its not a highway.

    • beesider on 10/01/2021 - 07:44

      Princes Highway

      • suchan on 13/01/2021 - 11:08

        plenty of idiotic drivers and road rage in this highway. Sorry to hear what happened to you.

  • Richardc on 10/01/2021 - 04:20
    +5

    ask the Mercedes driver to be your witness, as he/she can tell how many impact happen in the accident, also you're better get a dashcam.

  • whitelie on 10/01/2021 - 05:13
    +15

    Toyota hasn't got much damage either but its airbags deployed

    How TF did he drive off if the airbag deployed?

    Call Budget Direct again (or check your insurance PDS), both of their third party policies state they cover you up to $5k for an uninsured driver. They should pay you out the market value of the car or repair it…I would say they'll pay it out.
    The fine print on the Budget Direct website states "‡ Before lodging a claim, you must report the accident to the police; and, when lodging your claim, provide evidence the other vehicle is uninsured."
    So get the police report number (or lodge a report online and get the number) and notify the police that you can't contact the other driver. They may be able to provide the driver's details to your insurer. Ask BD what is required as "proof" of the other driver being uninsured as all you have is verbal evidence at this point. If you have Third Party Fire & Theft, you may be able to recoup the towing costs also.

    • Dumax on 10/01/2021 - 10:24
      +1

      OP - this is the place to start.

  • subydooby on 10/01/2021 - 07:57
    -4

    I can’t believe no one has said this yet but bikies.

    • MS Paint on 10/01/2021 - 09:17

      We were all waiting for you to mention it. Where have you been?

  • OzHunterNSW on 10/01/2021 - 10:49
    -8

    The Merc insurer will not be claiming on your insurance… you did not cause the accident. Do you understand that - you did not cause the accident!!!

    The Toyota (if not the Merc) caused all the damage.

    There is mention you didn't even get the Toyota driver's details!!! (Mod: Edited) You got a phone number hahahahah.

    And I bet for some reason that you could never comprehend, that the phone number does not exist… hahahah.

    The Toyota driver is the prime culprit. Did you at least get the rego number? No… I forgot…

    • MS Paint on 10/01/2021 - 12:25
      +4

      Did you at least get the rego number? No… I forgot…

      Did you at least look at op's pictures? No… I forgot…

    • beesider on 10/01/2021 - 16:53
      +1

      Got the Toyota's details with the help of the police. For some reason, Merc's driver is much more interested in claiming from my insurance, they were not interested in Toyota at all.

      • Bren20 on 11/01/2021 - 23:09

        Merc driver is interested in you're insurance as it's the only way they will get a payout, Toyota is a scumbag

    • bobbified on 11/01/2021 - 10:16
      +3

      Why is everyone negging this? It is actually correct. The Merc driver's insurance will be claiming against the Toyota driver who caused the collisions (not OP in the Honda), .

      There is an agreement between the insurers that the vehicle at the end of a pileup is responsible and will pay for ALL the damage to the vehicles ahead, unless it can be proved otherwise. (Having said that, it was rare to be able prove otherwise).

      • Quantumcat on 11/01/2021 - 10:58
        +3

        Why is everyone negging this?

        Probably because it was super rude

  • Hirolol on 10/01/2021 - 10:58
    +3

    It’s such bs that people can drive around with no 3rd party insurance.
    Meanwhile other people that pay for 3rd party insurance and are involved in an accident like this, are pretty much screwed.
    It does help that the merc was there but it’s still going to be a pain.

    OP, I hope it works out for you.

    • beesider on 10/01/2021 - 16:49
      +3

      Our system is broken. 3rd party insurance should be compulsory for all like in many European countries.

      • studentl0an on 12/01/2021 - 15:57
        +1

        I think our system is better. We cover personal liability in our registration costs (Europe doesn't), which is why registration is so expensive here. We let people make their own minds up about their level of risk to property damage rather than blanket charge everyone. In Australia our liabilities to personal injuries are a part of car registration costs, where in Europe it's part of car insurance.

        Here our 3rd party car insurers will pay out up to a certain amount if you are crashed into by an uninsured driver, so you are already covered. Your car (8th gen standard Civic?) is ~$5k, most likely you will get it covered despite being crashed into by an uninsured driver - so how is that a broken system?

        Please have a look into the costs of 3rd party insurance in Europe and compare them to the costs of 3rd party insurance in Australia before making such claims.

    • knasty on 11/01/2021 - 18:20

      Lots of people drive around without a licence let alone insurance. Well according to Highway Patrol…

    • studentl0an on 12/01/2021 - 15:51
      +1

      Every 3rd party insurer I've been with (AAMI, Allianz, Budget Direct) covers up to a certain amount of your car if an uninsured, at fault driver crashed into it.

  • Legoncy on 10/01/2021 - 12:31
    +3

    Op, your in a tough situation, you will need to sue the driver behind you-however this is a long winded process and I doubt you will see any form of money quickly.
    Your vehicle looks like it will prob be a Total loss.
    IMO leave your vehicle, sue the driver behind you - and hope you have enough funds to get another car for the time being.
    Situations like this is why full comp insurance is vital.
    Also depending on the insurance 3rd party sometimes will cover your vehicle up to 3-3.5K
    Speak to your insurance about this.
    According to your post you said your with budget direct

    https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/third-party-ca…

    It states they cover up to 5K if an insured driver hits you
    All the best

    • HeWhoKnows on 11/01/2021 - 08:02

      Well done on this one

    • resubaehtgnolhcs on 10/01/2021 - 13:03
      +10

      This is because the law says that OP should have had adequeate pressure on the brake pedal.

      Having the brakes on does not mean that you will remain stationary when another vehicle hits you.

      Also, can you please link the 'law' that you refer to?

        • resubaehtgnolhcs on 10/01/2021 - 17:16
          +9

          Dont be lazy. Look it up. Its there.

          Look it up where? I can't find any law that relates to "adequate pressure on the brake pedal" during an accident. If you know it, than link it, don't be lazy ;p

        • Scrooge McDuck on 11/01/2021 - 15:30
          +2

          Dont be lazy. Look it up. Its there.

          LMAO!

        • Zondor on 13/01/2021 - 20:06

          I swear you're always here to incorrectly quote the law every one of these threads lol

      • kiitos on 10/01/2021 - 14:42
        +8

        Also, can you please link the 'law' that you refer to?

        Definitely not Newton's Laws of Motion, that's for sure…

    • whitelie on 10/01/2021 - 23:44
      +2

      The law is that the first vehicle that failed to stop is at fault. Your foot can be pushing the brake pedal thru the floor, that's not going to stop the tyres skidding and your car hitting the one in front of you when a car hits you from behind at 80km/h.

      Because OP had come to a stop without impacting the Mercedes, they are not at fault. Same as Scenario C with one less vehicle involved.

    • bobbified on 11/01/2021 - 02:23
      +5

      Now down to the insurances…

      @Amayzingone: Why do you keep coming here and spreading misinformation about how the insurance works? You obviously have no idea, but keep repeating the wrong information over and over! Repeating it ten times isn't going to make it right!

      • Scrooge McDuck on 11/01/2021 - 15:45
        +4

        It's garbage like this which has made me averse to bother arguing on the internet any more, and have second thoughts about even commenting in the first place.

        In the good old days not everyone knew how to do much on the internet let alone post on a forum. That barrier served as a natural intelligence filter. But as penetration of access increased, the average intelligence decreased.

        We need a new filter.

  • Leanne59 on 10/01/2021 - 13:32
    +12

    I have been in this exact same position and if you were at a total stand still as I was then the Toyota is responsible for your car and the Mercedes as he pushed you into the Mercedes which is what happened to me. The police should be able to provide you with the Toyota's owners details and address which would then be passed onto your insurance. However if you only have 3rd party insurance you would have to chase the Toyota's owner yourself for repairs etc. The Mercedes would have to claim against the Toyota as well and would have his insurance do that once he also has the drivers details and address to provide to his insurance. The Mercedes wouldn't claim against your insurance as you were pushed by the Toyota into him and he would advise this when making a claim.

      • Leanne59 on 10/01/2021 - 13:51
        +9

        It wasn't advice it was a real instance so I know what happened. We only had third party and obviously the Toyota driver wouldn't have been able to see from behind if OP had already crashed into the back of the Mercedes. OP said that the other driver (Mercedes) heard the two impacts.
        NOT SURE WHAT MAKES YOU SUCH AN EXPERT. (Oh was that too much yelling?) You seem to jump into a lot of discussions and always think you're correct but you're not in this instance.

    • garffi on 10/01/2021 - 14:45
      +4

      Agreed, this should be the case. Toyota hit OP which as a result hit the merc. The hardest thing for OP right now is trying to get money from the non-insured driver.

  • beesider on 10/01/2021 - 16:45
    +6

    Reached out to cops who provided the Toyota's contact details. Turns out the Toyota driver not only doesn't have a 3rd party insurance but also doesn't have an Australian driver's license. He only has a driver's license from his home country which is Australia's most popular holiday destination (pre-Covid). He looked like he's in his 40s so probably a temporary worker who can go back to his homeland at any moment.

    • Gina Rinehart on 10/01/2021 - 17:07
      +7

      Give this info to your insurer and hopefully they can cover you as the posters above mentioned (for an uninsured driver up to $5k), and they will deal with chasing down the driver for damages.

      • HeWhoKnows on 11/01/2021 - 07:57
        -3

        No all insurers nor policies provide this cover

        Something to look out for in Third party motor vehicle insurnance.
        Definitely worth paying the extra to have this.

    • neo on 10/01/2021 - 23:13
      +3

      Totally infuriating. If this isn't the definition of a broken system then I don't know what is.

    • SF3 on 10/01/2021 - 23:21

      Any APB issued on the Camry?

    • whitelie on 10/01/2021 - 23:52

      Depending on which state you're in, generally if they're here for less than 6 months, they don't need an Australian licence and can use their international one but regardless, it doesn't really affect the situation. As said, pass the details on to your insurance company and go from there.

    • HeWhoKnows on 11/01/2021 - 07:55
      -2

      This is a huge problem for us Aussies

      All these people here on tourist and study visas driving around on overseas drivers licences - English, Irish, South Americans
      Not only do they avoid thier obligations in an accident but also all driving and parking fines.
      Seems to me the Irish are the worst offenders from what I see in unpaid infringement notcies ariving in our mailboxes on a regular basis.

      The government needs to do something about this.
      Like checking when they are leaving the country to see if there any outstanding/unpaid infringement notices and accident claims

    • smartazz104 on 11/01/2021 - 13:13

      Who owns the Camry?

      • beesider on 11/01/2021 - 19:09

        The same person who was behind the wheel

    • ribze1 on 11/01/2021 - 20:57
      +1

      "Australia's most popular holiday destination (pre-Covid)"

      A New Zealander, interesting.

      Source: https://www.finder.com.au/top-10-travel-destinations-for-aus…

      • Quantumcat on 12/01/2021 - 20:46

        Well New Zealand is basically another Australian state

  • Maxxiz on 11/01/2021 - 12:55

    Assuming you're in Victoria, go back to police and ask they complete a report. The driver of the third vehicle has not complied with Section 61 of the Road Safety Act:

    (c) must at the scene of the accident as soon as possible give his or her name and address and also the name and address of the owner of the motor vehicle and the identifying number of the motor vehicle and, in the case of an automated vehicle, state whether it was operating in automated mode at the time of the accident—

    Then speak to your insurance company and provide this report number, making a claim.

    • beesider on 11/01/2021 - 18:40
      +1

      I'm in NSW and already got Toyota's driver's license details from the police. One thing I don't understand is why the Toyota driver went into hiding and blocked me. For a man in his 40s burying his head in the sand is not OK.

      • John Kimble on 12/01/2021 - 11:19
        +2

        Because he is a douchebag and he can.

  • Herbse on 11/01/2021 - 13:41
    +2

    When the insurance company talks to the Mercedes driver. They will ask if they felt one or two bumps. That's how they determine it.

    • John Kimble on 12/01/2021 - 11:21

      How would they have felt the first bump? 🤔

      • darken on 12/01/2021 - 11:45
        +2

        One bump if Toyota pushed OP into the Merc.

        Two bumps if OP hit the Merc and then Toyota pushed OP into Merc again.

    • Paul Atreides on 12/01/2021 - 13:45
      +1

      +1 on this, sister was in a similar incident where she was the merc in this scenario. Insurance company of the car that hit her (the Honda Civic in this case) asked if she felt one or two bumps (one bump was the answer), then told her to claim through the insurance of the third car (Toyota), who was also uninsured)

      Don't remember the detail, but after a lot of fluffing around, her insurance company ended up paying the uninsured driver $5k amount (car was written off).

  • Mistredo on 11/01/2021 - 13:56
    +2

    To me it is suprising the third-party insurance is not mandatory in Australia. In Europe, you cannot drive a car that does not have a third-party insurance. If you did, you would violate a law.

    • jv on 11/01/2021 - 15:43

      you would violate a law.

      which law?

      • Mistredo on 11/01/2021 - 16:00
        +1

        It depends on country, because every country defines (so in each country it has a different number/identifier), but because EU countries just copy laws from each other most have it.

        E.g. in UK it is in Road Traffic 1988 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/VI/crosshe…

        • jv on 11/01/2021 - 16:05
          -2

          If a person acts in contravention of subsection (1) above he is guilty of an offence.

          Seems only men are required to have insurance…

          • beesider on 11/01/2021 - 18:16

            @jv: In most psychology-related books it's "she". You'd wanted it to be that way everywhere?

  • Alexxx on 11/01/2021 - 15:18
    +5

    Seen a few posts recently about car accidents, I would recommend everyone print out a few copies of the following and keep them in your car.

    https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/27358…

    edit:
    additional languages and the original is available at https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/safety_and_prevention/safe_and…

    • ribze1 on 11/01/2021 - 20:54
      +1

      I've got one in my glovebox

    • SF3 on 11/01/2021 - 23:27
      +1

      according to the this - OP should have called 000 (failed to exchange details - i.e. lack of details).

      Has anyone involved failed to exchange details? (See reverse for legal requirements)
      * Denotes minimum legal requirement for exchange of details
      Registration No.*
      Driver Name*:
      Address*
      Owner Name*
      Owner Address*:

      • Drewbo on 12/01/2021 - 15:09
        -1

        Somewhat surprised that the advice in that flyer is to call '000' if details haven't been exchanged. It's hardly an emergency.

  • kolorijo on 11/01/2021 - 16:07

    Also, please invest in a good working dashcam. Front and back if you can.

    • capslock janitor on 12/01/2021 - 20:25

      Which you recommend

      • kolorijo on 13/01/2021 - 08:23
        +1

        I got viofo 129 and been using it for months now. It is good for its price.

  • Drakesy on 11/01/2021 - 16:34
    -1

    Unfortunately you would have needed to get their license details as well. At the moment the owness falls with your insurance unless they can get the details of the Toyota driver.
    But its correct, the Mercedes insurance would follow up with your insurance which would follow up with the Toyotas insurance. Ultimately lying with them.

    • bohn on 12/01/2021 - 11:13
      -1

      There is no legal obligation for either party to show their licence after an accident.

      • Drakesy on 12/01/2021 - 11:37
        -2

        Tad incorrect on that one unfortunately bud.

        https://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/resources/self-help-kits-and-….
        And here
        https://www.gotocourt.com.au/traffic-law/wa/accidents/

        • bohn on 12/01/2021 - 11:50
          -1

          Your first link is not legislation.

          Your second link says:

          In Western Australia (WA), anyone involved in an accident must stop at the scene, and help anyone who is injured. They must give their name and address and the name and address of the owner of the car they are driving to anyone who has been injured or whose property is damaged and to any police.

          David Whiting, a lawyer who is on the ABC legal show, recently gave similar advice. You are not required to show your licence at all.

          • Drakesy on 12/01/2021 - 11:53
            -2

            @bohn: Not sure how many sources of evidence there are but there's a shedload.
            https://www.shine.com.au/blog/motor-vehicle-law/car-accident…
            🤡

            • bohn on 12/01/2021 - 11:55
              -1

              @Drakesy: Why link blogs?
              Go for something like this:
              https://lawhandbook.sa.gov.au/ch01s03s01.php

              The driver of every vehicle involved in an accident must:

              Stop at the scene of the accident
              Give their details including their name and address, the name and address of the vehicle’s owner, and the vehicle's registration number (or any other information necessary to identify the vehicle) to any other driver involved, any person injured (or their representative) or the owner of any property that has been damaged.

              Legal Aid/insurance type sites often suggest that you ask for a licence - and I am not saying it is a bad idea. Just it is in no way your right to see it.

        • bohn on 12/01/2021 - 12:05

          re your legalaid link. another page shows what is actually required. Basically the same as the South Australia law.
          https://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/find-legal-answers/cars-and-d…

          If you are a driver in an accident where anyone is hurt or property is damaged, you must stop immediately. Property includes motor vehicles, houses, fences, gardens, bikes and personal belongings.

          You must give:

          your name and address, and
          if you were driving someone else's car, the name and address of the car's owner (if you know that information)

          Licence info should fall under their other section (but they haven't included it there)

          If possible, write down the following:

          • Drakesy on 12/01/2021 - 12:18
            -1

            @bohn: Maybe you can't force it from them as you're not a police officer but its definitely illegal.

            https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/after-a-car-crash-fact-….

            • bohn on 12/01/2021 - 12:26

              @Drakesy: Just thought I would post this here since we've been posting various links
              Road Traffic Act 1974 (WA) has all the answers.
              Same as what I have been posting (obviously ;))
              Section 54 (6)

              If a vehicle driven by a person (the driver) is involved in an
              incident occasioning bodily harm to another person (a victim),
              the driver must, if required to do so by a victim, a representative
              of a victim, or a police officer, give the driver’s name and
              address and, if known to the driver, the name and address of a
              responsible person for the vehicle.
              Penalty for this subsection: a fine of 30 PU

              Legislation outlines what must be given, as opposed to what you could possibly collect (you can attempt to collect phone numbers, email addresses, licence details, etc, but none of those are required to be given to you).

              Now, if you hit me, don't you dare ask me for my licence… ;)

              Edit:

              Maybe you can't force it from them as you're not a police officer but its definitely illegal.

              Not only can I not force it from them, I have no legal right to see it. If in doubt, always look to legislation for what is illegal.

  • spoonmugen on 11/01/2021 - 18:58

    dash cam…

    • beesider on 11/01/2021 - 19:14
      +1

      I'm afraid to install one as it'll attract thieves or druggies who'd smash the windows to steal it. I've been seeing dashcams only on cars which are parked in underground parking.

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